Mens Rights Thread

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I'm not an expert on "equality budgeting" but my guess, given this is being written care of a feminist network, is it often involves groups complaining if a measure is seen as disadvantaging women, but not if it is seen as disadvantaging men.

Also, suggestions they make presumably involve disadvantaging women less and in this scenario, I imagine it is often a zero sum game, so the suggestions then disadvantage men.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/1008/1224325013744.html

A chara, – Successive governments have, since the onset of the economic crisis, overseen economic policies that disproportionately affect certain sections of Irish society. This is captured by studies undertaken by independent think-tanks, economists, and policy analysts, which clearly highlight the disadvantaging of women, people with disabilities and low income households, among others.

Given that Budget 2013 is now being devised, we wish to object to this continued targeting of those already experiencing inequality, and call upon the Government to follow international best practice by introducing equality budgeting.

Equality budgeting entails the completion of impact assessments and equality audits, which would provide Government with the necessary information to make critical decisions concerning people’s well-being and the just distribution of economic resources. If the Labour-Fine Gael administration really believes in the Programme for Government’s proclamation of “forging a new Ireland that is built on fairness and equal citizenship”, it will now adopt equality budgeting as the obvious and necessary means to ensuring fairness and equality in the next budget.

Continued disproportionate hardship for the same, disadvantaged members of this society is not, and should not, be an option. – Is muidne,

CLARA FISCHER, Irish Feminist Network; LOUISE RIORDAN, 50:50 Group; ORLA O’CONNOR, National Women’s Council of Ireland; MICHAEL TAFT, Unite the Union; URSULA BARRY, UCD School of Social Justice; LOUISE BAYLISS, Spark; ETHEL BUCKLEY, Siptu; FIONA BUCKLEY, UCC Department of Government; MARY MURPHY, NUIM Department of Sociology; ANDY STOREY, UCD School of Politics; SARAH BENSON, Ruhama; SANDRA McAVOY, UCC Women’s Studies; PAULINE CONROY, researcher and author; MARY RYAN, Immigrant Parents Guardians Support Organisation; JOHN O’BRENNAN, NUIM Centre for the Study of Wider Europe; DOLORES GIBBONS, Dublin Women’s Manifesto Group; IAIN ATACK, TCD Irish School of Ecumenics; CATHLEEN O’NEILL, Kilbarrack Community Development Project; CATHERINE LYNCH, Irish Network Against Racism; RACHEL MULLEN, Equality Rights Alliance; JIMMY KELLY, Unite the Union; SUZY BYRNE, disability rights activist; SIOBHAN O’DONOGHUE, Migrant Rights Centre Ireland; LUCY KEAVENEY, Countess Markievicz Summer School; MARTINE CUYPERS, Transgender Equality Network Ireland; RICHIE KEANE, UCD Equality Society; MARGARET MARTIN, Women’s Aid; GAVAN TITLEY (NUIM Centre for Media Studies; ANN IRWIN, community activist and social policy analyst; MICHAEL CRONIN, DCU Centre for Translation and Textual Studies; DENISE CHARLTON, Immigrant Council of Ireland; ANNA MacCARTHY, LGBT Noise Dr Clara Fischer, Co-ordinator,

Irish Feminist Network, C/o Poolbeg Street, Dublin 2.

See more info at: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81719624 (too awkward to copy and paste)

Another letter in Wednesday's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/1205/1224327508233.html

Preparing for a fair budget

A chara, – Political editor Stephen Collins (Opinion, December 1st) stated “the Irish State has managed better than any other in the EU to protect the most vulnerable sectors in society from the worst hardships” endured during the course of fiscal correction.

Given that successive governments have refused to undertake impact analyses, which would provide information on how “vulnerable sectors” have fared since the beginning of the economic crisis, it is difficult to accept Collins’s statement, nevermind the certainty it seeks to convey.

The truth is that the State does not know how different sections of Irish society are impacted by governments’ economic policies, as the relevant disaggregated data haven’t been collected, and impact assessments have not been conducted.

Moreover, the limited research that is being done (eg by independent think tank Tasc), clearly highlights the disproportionate and repeated disadvantaging of certain groups, such as lone parents, and captures drastic increases in inequality over recent years. Unlike other countries, which include equality or gender-proofing as a logical and necessary part of economic policy-making, planning, and review, Ireland remains – perhaps wilfully – ignorant of the equality outcomes of policies introduced by government.

Unless the Irish State adopts equality-proofing as a standard practice applicable to all economic policies, it will continue to lack the relevant information to establish how vulnerable groups are affected. One would be wise to refrain from proclaiming the first-rate protection of “vulnerable sectors” until such time. – Is mise,

Dr CLARA FISCHER,
On behalf of Equality
Budgeting Campaign,
C/o Poolbeg Street, Dublin 2.

Don't think I'd have much confidence in their "gender-proofing".

lechiennoir

If the quotas in Irish political parties, and the fines behind them, are to be enforced then I will never, ever give so much as a preference vote to a female candidate in the future.

It almost makes me gag to think that such a measure has been proposed.

iptba

I just happened to be looking at a new ESRI report tonight and thought this was interesting:

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/2012-12-10_WebWorkAndPovertyReportFINAL_pub.pdf

Between 2007 and 2010 there was a substantial drop in male full-time working (from 80 to 64 per cent) and a commensurate increase in male joblessness (from 16 to 28 per cent). Among females in working-age couple households, there was little change in full-time working (from 34 to 35 per cent) but a more sizeable fall in part-time working (from 28 to 22 per cent). As a result, the increase in female joblessness was not as marked as for males (from 37 to 43 per cent). Couple households where neither partner works increased (from 9 to 15 per cent). The decline in the percentage of couple households where both partners worked fulltime was more modest (from 29 to 26 per cent).

I think it is interesting for a few reasons:

---

- At 80% of men working full-time working, versus 34% of women working full-time, it reminds me of something Warren Farrell had in his book, "The Myth of Male Power: Why Men are the Disposable Sex"

Options available to women:
Work full-time
Work part-time
Don't work (outside the home)

Options available to men:
Work full-time
Work full-time
Work full-time
(remember that a percentage of the population can't work due to ill-health and disability of various sorts)

---

(ii) The effects of the recession on men and women. National Women's Council were claiming that women were the hardest hit.

---

(iii) The issue of gender quotas e.g. in politics, company boards, etc. Pre-recession, 80% of men but only 34% of women were working full-time. Hardly suggests 40% gender quotas (which are almost 50/50 quotas - one can't have them for practical reasons) are justified.

lechiennoir

Does anyone here read/participate in Mens Rights on www.reddit.com/r/mensrights ?

iptba

lechiennoir wrote: »

Does anyone here read/participate in Mens Rights on www.reddit.com/r/mensrights ?

I have done a little bit in the last six months or so. A couple of people earlier in the thread also mentioned it.

lechiennoir

iptba wrote: »

I have done a little bit in the last six months or so. A couple of people earlier in the thread also mentioned it.

It's quite good and very active.

Although it's constantly being targeted by feminist groups on Reddit.

Madam_X

Watching a rom com (sue me!) and Cameron Diaz is playing this jealous crazywoman who has her fella terrorised. When he finally admits he's seeing someone else, she punches the crap out of him - and shur 'tis just a big laugh. :rolleyes:

LeeHoffmann

Theres a lot of that in films. There was one movie, starring Ashton Kutcher, about a guy who tries to go 100 days - or something like that - without sex. There´s a scene in the film in which a woman basically rapes him (he´s tied to a bed, asleep, and a woman starts having sex with him...he wakes up, doesn´t want to continue but comes shortly after) and it´s all treated very light-heartedly - the character´s love interest even gets angry with him over it. :eek: I was pretty shocked watching it but the men I watched it with didn´t see anything shocking about it. I don´t think they saw it as rape. Clearly the film producers, director, script-writers didn´t either. Mad

iptba

Dec 10 piece:

It's taboo to admit it, but I wish my unborn baby wasn't a beastly boy!
at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2245681/Its-taboo-admit-I-wish-unborn-baby-wasnt-beastly-boy.html

---

'A bigot in a bra!': A male writer responds to Esther Walker's 'toxic and chauvinistic' admission that she doesn’t want to give birth to a little boy

By Peter Lloyd

PUBLISHED:09:28 GMT, 12 December 2012|

This week, Esther Walker - wife of celebrity food critic Giles Coren - wrote a lacerating opinion piece about her casual sexism towards men and boys.

The article, which no doubt delighted the likes of Harriet Harman and Suzanne Moore, garnered more than 1,400 reader comments and sparked global offence (from both genders) after it poured vitriol on her unborn child for possibly being male.

'I can only deal with one man in my life... and sometimes that’s one too many,' she spewed, probably over some middle class macaroons or an elderflower torte.

'I know very little about boys, but what I have seen I really haven’t liked. Boys are gross; they attack their siblings with sticks, are obsessed with toilets, casually murder local wildlife and turn into disgusting teenage boys and then boring, selfish men.

continues at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2246471/A-bigot-bra--Male-writer-responds-Esther-Walkers-admission-doesnt-want-baby-boy.html

Daveysil15

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Theres a lot of that in films. There was one movie, starring Ashton Kutcher, about a guy who tries to go 100 days - or something like that - without sex. There´s a scene in the film in which a woman basically rapes him (he´s tied to a bed, asleep, and a woman starts having sex with him...he wakes up, doesn´t want to continue but comes shortly after) and it´s all treated very light-heartedly - the character´s love interest even gets angry with him over it. :eek: I was pretty shocked watching it but the men I watched it with didn´t see anything shocking about it. I don´t think they saw it as rape. Clearly the film producers, director, script-writers didn´t either. Mad

You mean this film?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmeaAGe4uMo

jackofalltrades

From yesterdays Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1217/1224327923001.html

Inequality of healthcare for women must be eradicated

Opinion: Today, Anand Grover, the UN special rapporteur on the right to health, is visiting Ireland to give the keynote address at a conference of the Women’s Human Rights Alliance. As a renowned advocate for women’s right to health, he is aware that there are many barriers when it comes to the realisation of this right for women in Ireland.

He will have heard already that we have a highly inequitable two-tier health system which offers privileges to those who can afford private health. The 48 per cent without private health insurance have to wait longer to access hospital and specialist services.

Women are particularly affected by this inequality. They are more likely to be poor, to parent alone, to be the main provider of unpaid care work, to earn low wages, and to be in poorly protected employment. Indeed women have identified lack of income as the main barrier to improving their health.

There are also significant health inequalities between different groups of women such as those with disabilities and those belonging to an ethnic minority.

Women with disabilities are likely to be trapped in a violent relationship longer than non-disabled women and, for some, such violence is the cause of the disability itself. Traveller women live 12 years less on average than settled women.

Furthermore, women are largely absent in the rooms of power when it comes to deciding on health policy. The lack of women’s representation in key decision-making bodies within the health system has serious implications for the quality of healthcare received.

Women and men have different health needs and health experiences. For example, women and men present different symptoms in relation to cardiovascular disease.

In the area of mental health, women are more likely to suffer from anxiety or depression, whereas men are more likely than women to die by suicide and less likely to seek help when experiencing mental distress.

Sexual abuse and violence against women has an appalling impact on women’s health – both physical and mentally. Some 42 per cent of women in Ireland experience some form of sexual abuse or violence over their lifetime.

Gender-sensitive healthcare

More recently there have been positive developments towards a more gender-sensitive healthcare system. The National Women’s Council together with men’s groups and the Health Service Executive have worked together on an important report called Equal but Different which considers the differences between women and men’s health needs and how they can be integrated into the ongoing reforms of the health system. This framework will now be translated into a policy of the HSE and become part of its service plans. Pilots will be rolled out next year in the area of mental health and primary care.

No discussion on women’s right to health in Ireland in 2012 can take place without emphasising the critical right of women to reproductive health and abortion. The National Women’s Council of Ireland has long campaigned for reproductive rights in Ireland, with motions being passed by the membership over the last 20 years. The council has been to the forefront in our online campaign Legislate for X which has led to over 72,000 emails to TDs from over 16,000 people in every constituency in Ireland.

The tragic death of Savita Halappanavar has woken the country up to the risk to life for women in Ireland. The analyses and the range of opinions expressed by doctors and the testimonies of women in response to Ms Halappanavar’s death highlight the lack of clarity that confronts doctors and pregnant women.

Grover highlights in his ground-breaking report on abortion in 2011 that the right to sexual and reproductive health is a fundamental part of the right to health: “Criminal laws penalising and restricting induced abortion are the paradigmatic examples of impermissible barriers to the realisation of women’s right to health and must be eliminated.”

Today is the second anniversary of the A, B and C vs Ireland judgment. Women in Ireland cannot wait any longer. The Government must finally act and legislate for the X case. This must include as a minimum and first step the repeal of the completely outdated Offences against the Person Act 1861 which criminalises abortion in literally all circumstances.

The programme for government lays out radical plans for the reform of our health services including the introduction of universal health insurance and a new governance and organisational structure. This is to be welcomed.

Draconian cuts

However, the draconian funding cuts to the health budget over the past few years have resulted in wider health inequalities and poorer access to essential services. This is particularly affecting women living in poverty and disadvantaged communities, lone parents, older women, women with disabilities and people living in rural and isolated communities. Continuous cuts to our health services have had a detrimental impact on essential frontline services and seriously undermine the possibility of the reform programme being implemented in the foreseeable future.

While acknowledging that the current economic crisis is a challenge, the National Women’s Council also sees it as an opportunity. The council and many women’s groups argue that this is a unique time to gender-proof all reform proposals, ensuring that they are effective and make the best use of existing resources.

Today on the occasion of the UN special rapporteur on the right to health’s visit, we call on the Government both legislate for the X case and ringfence funding to deliver on promised health reforms.

In times of austerity, the health of women and indeed the entire population should not be compromised.

* Orla O’Connor is director of the National Women’s Council of Ireland, which convenes the Women’s Human Rights Alliance

The title alone seems to suggest that men are in a better position when it comes to healthcare. The author seems to conveniently skip over the fact that women out live men, have better cancer diagnosis services, access health services in higher numbers and have access to cancer vaccines that are not offered to men.

Gender proofing is again brought out, as it was in the recent budget to ensure that this imbalance towards women is maintained. Gender proofing is surprisingly not sought when it comes to the allocation of existing funds.

iptba

jackofalltrades wrote: »

From yesterdays Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1217/1224327923001.html



The title alone seems to suggest that men are in a better position when it comes to healthcare. The author seems to conveniently skip over the fact that women out live men, have better cancer diagnosis services, access health services in higher numbers and have access to cancer vaccines that are not offered to men.

Gender proofing is again brought out, as it was in the recent budget to ensure that this imbalance towards women is maintained. Gender proofing is surprisingly not sought when it comes to the allocation of existing funds.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that article.
Just to point out that people can comment under that article if they want.

py2006

It's taboo to admit it, but I wish my unborn baby wasn't a beastly boy!
at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...astly-boy.html

That woman should not be allowed to have children. If the poor baby does turn out to be a boy I hope social services and the community around her will keep a watchful eye.

py2006

I do not believe the men posting here would value a mother's life, first. I believe they are suffering from foetophilia. I stand by my words; many of the men posting here would happily allow women to die in childbirth, if it preserves their reactionary beliefs. As a teenager, I was sent to one of the main proponents and practioners of symphisiostomy. ( a minor gynae thing) Believe me, he was a horrible condescending man. I believe the most extreme views are fueled by a fear and loathing of women, not concern for the foetus.

One of the comments under the IrishTimes article.

um7y1h83ge06nx

py2006 wrote: »

One of the comments under the IrishTimes article.

Christ, that's a pretty f**king extreme view, and quite offensive.

Thing is, it seems okay to say these kind of things without repercussion. You would have to think that having such an extreme view would point to an issue with that specific woman and not men as a collective.

Zulu

Roland Salty Rifle wrote: »

Thing is, it seems okay to say these kind of things without repercussion.

Or when challenged, people are met with open hostility, and accusations of bullying etc.. It's all very (passive)aggressive, and caustic.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Zulu wrote: »

Or when challenged, people are met with open hostility, and accusations of bullying etc.. It's all very (passive)aggressive, and caustic.

Absolutely spot on.

py2006

It's actually something that genuinely annoys me. Men simply cannot question, query, criticise or argue topics related to or about women. It is often met with censorship, vitriol or accusations of misogyny.

Daveysil15

py2006 wrote: »

It actually something that genuinely annoys me. Men simply cannot question, query, criticise or argue topics related to or about women. It is often met with censorship, vitriol or accusations of misogyny.

+1 You're absolutely right. It happens all too often. Men are much more harshly criticised for discussing this sort of thing. And then when you try and hightlight any injustices made against men, you're a whinger and your voice is quickly silenced.

py2006

Daveysil15 wrote: »

+1 You're absolutely right. It happens all too often. Men are much more harshly criticised for discussing this sort of thing. And then when you try and hightlight any injustices made against men, you're a whinger and your voice is quickly silenced.

It's important to add that it is not just women that enforce this untold law.

iptba

I find it interesting now that there's a gender pay gap where, in a section of society, women are significantly out earning men, this isn't portrayed as an injustice, or discussed much, the way the pay gap has been around the world when women earn less than men. It seems women are simply "worth it", and men should just accept it.

The drop in income after having children is interesting too, and worthy of discussion, but to some extent at least, is a separate issue i.e. it shouldn't mean that the first pay gap shouldn't also be reflected on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/front/2012/1218/1224327961490.html

Younger Irish women workers outearn their male counterparts, and by a far greater margin than anywhere else in the OECD. But the pay gap is quickly reversed in favour of men once children are involved.

From earning 17 per cent more than men when they have no children, Irish women aged 25-44 go to taking home 14 per cent less in their pay packet when they have children, the report finds.

Researchers say Irish women start their careers earning well because they are generally better qualified than men. But once they give birth, they are far more likely than women in other countries to withdraw from the workforce .

“For many years now, Irish women have had a higher level of educational attainment than men,” says Willem Adema, a senior economist in the OECD’s social policy unit in Paris. “As a result, they are far more likely to work in well-paying sectors such as law and accountancy. Because Ireland’s public sector is smaller than, say, Sweden’s, they are more likely to work in the private sector where wages are higher.”

donfers

iptba wrote: »

I find it interesting now that there's a gender pay gap where, in a section of society, women are significantly out earning men, this isn't portrayed as an injustice, or discussed much, the way the pay gap has been around the world when women earn less than men. It seems women are simply "worth it", and men should just accept it.

The drop in income after having children is interesting too, and worthy of discussion, but to some extent at least, is a separate issue i.e. it shouldn't mean that the first pay gap shouldn't also be reflected on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/front/2012/1218/1224327961490.html

this is astonishing and perfectly illustrates the imbalance in how gender issues are covered

women earn significantly more than men (17%) and there's not a word uttered from the equality fascists who usually will cling on to any statistic yet there's a huge clamour when a lower figure (14%) than that is weighed in favour of men when there is an apparent reason (i.e. the woman takes a few years off)

mindboggling stuff and it tells you everything about the propoganda machine that is the "woe is women, the patriarchy takes care of all men" message that is peddled by the one-eyed gender police (media, universities, sheepish populists, pandering gutless politicians) is not just fundamentally flawed but is plain old currupt and malicious - that is what you are up against

Pawwed Rig

I came across a thread in After Hours with these 2 links highlighting a huge double standard in Irish law.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/student-starts-jail-for-glass-attack-458492.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/suspended-sentence-for-actress-who-left-barman-permanently-scarred-after-glassing-incident-3331414.html

Full thread here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056835259&page=4

um7y1h83ge06nx

Just looking at the Independent article about the woman, mad stuff.

Gda Grey told Fiona Murphy BL, prosecuting, that Tanya Wilson then slapped the barman across the face and chased him with a glass in her hand when he tried to get away.

He said that she was acting “really crazy” and he put up his hand up to try and block her. He then followed her out a fire escape and put his hand on her arm to calm her down.

Wilson then said “You can't touch me, I'm a girl,” and smashed the Bulmers glass into the barman's face.

He grabbed her arm and brought her to the bar while she was screaming: “Let me go, let me go; he attacked me.”

The court heard the barman was bleeding very badly from his face when he went to get security.

The bit in bold is something I think is creeping more and more into society. She felt that he couldn't physically restrain her as she was female yet in the next moment felt it was fine to smash a glass into his face.

We've said it before here - violence is wrong, whether it's male on female, female on male or any other combination.

The Corinthian

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I came across a thread in After Hours with these 2 links highlighting a huge double standard in Irish law?

This is not unusual. There was a UK report on gender and crime (can't find the link at present) that has been cited here a few times, typically to support the notion that men are violent criminals when compared to women.

However, when one actually reads the report, one begins to find that women are typically more often cautioned, rather than charged and where convicted far less likely to receive custodial sentences than men for the same crime.

The social causes of this difference in treatment are numerous and historical. To begin with, women were more likely to be considered irrational creatures, unable to control their passions, than men (temporary insanity remains a more common and successful defence by female defendants than males). Additionally mothers would tend to receive more lenient sentences, for the sake of the child(ren), which is why practically no court order breaches by mothers end in jail time (unlike court order breaches by fathers).

Legally this has also been reflected in law; the option to plead the belly was available to avoid capital punishment temporarily. Male homosexuality tended to be illegal, but lesbianism ignored. And of course many criminal acts still carry different sentences based upon gender - as was highlighted in the now infamous Roscommon incest case a few years ago.

Unfortunately, thanks to such attitudes and archaic laws than we end up with inaccurate statistics on the criminality of both men and women that are often used to justify a policy of abolishing custodial sentences for the latter.

Piliger

Question:

How do we break out of what is a very limited group of men here on Boards, who realise the need for a broader voice on behalf of Men's Rights, and ensure that that voice is heard ? How do we engage a wider audience of Men and take a step toward that goal ?

awec

This post has been deleted.

VinLieger

Piliger wrote: »

Question:

How do we break out of what is a very limited group of men here on Boards, who realise the need for a broader voice on behalf of Men's Rights, and ensure that that voice is heard ? How do we engage a wider audience of Men and take a step toward that goal ?

Its a very good question, i do try to talk to bring it up with friends but its difficult to get them interested as has been discussed on here unless they feel it is directly relevant to them, which it actually is, but they dont understand or seem to care which is again the fault of the overcorrect that aggressive feminisim and misandry has caused

iptba

awec wrote: »

Most men won't care until it is something they can relate to after having a personal experience IMO.

Maybe. But are women any different? Yet they have a strong movement.

The Corinthian

Piliger wrote: »

How do we break out of what is a very limited group of men here on Boards, who realise the need for a broader voice on behalf of Men's Rights, and ensure that that voice is heard ? How do we engage a wider audience of Men and take a step toward that goal ?

Tried it a while back. Invited a few of the more regular posters to an off-boards private mailing list, to casually discuss actual things that could be done. The result was that no one even bothered posting, let alone suggest ideas or volunteer for anything, with the exception of a sole female subscriber. The men who were so vocal here, and who were happy enough to sign on, either stayed silent or muttered excuses about not having time (despite being able to post here 30 times a day).

Ever since that fiasco, I've chosen to largely limit even my posting here on the subject, because as far as I'm concerned we deserve what we get, if this is our attitude.

iptba wrote: »

Maybe. But are women any different? Yet they have a strong movement.

The Women's right movement de-constructed women's role in society. This allowed Feminism to objectively question whether it makes sense for women to behave in a certain way and if not, the natural conclusion is to change.

Men have never done so. Correction; Warren Farrell did, in his book The Myth of Male Power, but few men have heard of this and so we continue to follow what is expected of us blindly, without asking whether it makes sense for us to do so or not - indeed, some even passionately defending our 'role' as being the definition of 'manliness'.