Mens Rights Thread

fits

iptba wrote: »

Seanad Eireann debate

This seems the exact opposite of equality to me:

Someone with a strange opinion came to speak... proves what exactly? I could google and find equally peculiar stuff to support my case, doesn't mean its representative of mainstream opinion.
There is a need for male groups in Ireland but a lot of stuff I am seeing is overly preoccupied with what the women are doing, rather than focussing on the genuine male issues. (depression and suicide, paternity leave, fathers rights among others)

Pawwed Rig

PucaMama wrote: »

As if its a surprise......feminism is for women's equality, men's rights is for men's equality. Makes sense they look after their own.

Who are 'their own' exactly? Is a womans son less 'her own' than a female she has never met before? Is my wife less 'my own' than a random guy on the internet? Should white people just look after 'their own'? Is my black friend not worthy of my support or should I just look after 'my own'?

diveout

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Who are 'their own' exactly? Is a womans son less 'her own' than a female she has never met before? Is my wife less 'my own' than a random guy on the internet? Should white people just look after 'their own'? Is my black friend not worthy of my support or should I just look after 'my own'?

Isn't that the problem with them though? They are by self definition divisive and partisan?

Henry9

PucaMama wrote: »

Feminism is about equality for women, not equality for everyone.

That statement doesn't make any logical sense.
Equality with whom? Men??
Then by definition it means equality for men too.
But that's not what you mean, and we all know that's not what you mean right?

What you really mean is advocacy for women, on a narrow subset of issues, preferably using cherry picked or outright mendacious data.
As long of course as it ties in with the overall narrative of oppression and white heterosexual male privilige.

Incidentally, it's nice to know that 'feminism' is an identifiable thing again.
Given that as soon as any male poster tries to attribute anything to it they'll be met with a barrage of 'but what is feminism?' and the classic 'that's not what feminism is to me'.

Henry9

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Who are 'their own' exactly? Is a womans son less 'her own' than a female she has never met before? Is my wife less 'my own' than a random guy on the internet? Should white people just look after 'their own'? Is my black friend not worthy of my support or should I just look after 'my own'?

Wouldn't it be terrible if people thought like that? If every issue was treated as if you were a member of a political party who had to go out and defend the Government's policy day after day?

You'd end up with a load of swivel eyed loons who would jump upon every event which they thought reinforced their position.
But when something contradicted their prejudiced view would rationalise it away, saying 'nothing to see here'.

Nothing would ever be taken on it's own merits, just something to be appealed to or disregarded as required.

jackofalltrades

PucaMama wrote: »

As if its a surprise......feminism is for women's equality, men's rights is for men's equality. Makes sense they look after their own.

That makes no sense at all.
How can equality, by it's nature, be restricted to one group?

If a group claims to be about equality then you have to be seeking equal rights for both groups. Anything less is advocacy/supremacy.

fits wrote:

In Ireland.. feminism is for equality.

Then why does it campaign for preferential treatment for women?
Why doesn't it advocate for a reduction in privilege where women have an advantage over men?

fits

jackofalltrades wrote: »

That makes no sense at all.
How can equality, by it's nature, be restricted to one group?

If a group claims to be about equality then you have to be seeking equal rights for both groups. Anything less is advocacy/supremacy.


Then why does it campaign for preferential treatment for women?
Why doesn't it advocate for a reduction in privilege where women have an advantage over men?

ridiculous argument, no campaign group on this earth campaign for a reduction in privilege.
Where do you see campaigning for preferential treatment of women? You talking about gender quotas? Anything else?

jackofalltrades

fits wrote: »

ridiculous argument, no campaign group on this earth campaign for a reduction in privilege.

In area's such as parenting that's the only way there is ever going to be equality.

Where do you see campaigning for preferential treatment of women? You talking about gender quotas? Anything else?

So you agree that feminism has become more than seeking equality?

ancapailldorcha

Henry9 wrote: »

That statement doesn't make any logical sense.
Equality with whom? Men??
Then by definition it means equality for men too.
But that's not what you mean, and we all know that's not what you mean right?

I think she meant that feminists only campaign for equality for women in areas like pay, prospects etc while ignoring the fact that many men work lower paid manual labour positions, face severe disadvantages in family courts, etc...

fits

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think she meant that feminists only campaign for equality for women in areas like pay, prospects etc while ignoring the fact that many men work lower paid manual labour positions, face severe disadvantages in family courts, etc...

And the reverse is true for mens rights groups

ancapailldorcha

fits wrote: »

And the reverse is true for mens rights groups

Nobody else has even mentioned men's rights so I'm not sure I can blame them. Feminism has become so acceptable that male dominated governments have set up legislation to ensure equality for women while ignoring the plight of single dads, male criminals, etc...

fits

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

.....
. while ignoring the plight of single dads, male criminals, etc...

Absolutely agree work needs to be done in this area, would support it. But why would a young single woman campaign for -as opposed to support- improved fathers rights

but as I've said before, I believe increased opportunity in workplace for women, paternity leave, cheaper childcare and improved fathers rights are all inextricably linked.

ancapailldorcha

fits wrote: »

Absolutely agree work needs to be done in this area, would support it. But why would a young single woman campaign for -as opposed to support- improved fathers rights

but as I've said before, I believe increased opportunity in workplace for women, paternity leave, cheaper childcare and improved fathers rights are all inextricably linked.

I wouldn't expect feminists to campaign for men's rights given the issues that women still face. It irks me that people insist on labeling me as such because I believe in the ideas in the latter half of your post along with increased opportunities for men in primary teaching, nursing, etc...

VinLieger

fits wrote: »

Where do you see campaigning for preferential treatment of women? You talking about gender quotas? Anything else?

Prison sentences, there is currently a section of the feminist lobby calling for reduced sentencing for women across the board compared to men

fits

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wouldn't expect feminists to campaign for men's rights given the issues that women still face. It irks me that people insist on labeling me as such because I believe in the ideas in the latter half of your post along with increased opportunities for men in primary teaching, nursing, etc...

well by my definition, you are no reason it should irk you.

fits

VinLieger wrote: »

Prison sentences, there is currently a section of the feminist lobby calling for reduced sentencing for women across the board compared to men

who? Never heard of this. (outside of baroness cited earlier)... prison sentences should be based on rehabilitation, or lack of chance thereof...

ancapailldorcha

fits wrote: »

well by my definition, you are no reason it should irk you.

It does when feminists push for reduced sentences for women, the culling of men, etc... I know that that's a small minority but when the mainstream fail to criticise that minority, that's why I choose to distance myself from the movement.

Pawwed Rig

fits wrote: »

Absolutely agree work needs to be done in this area, would support it. But why would a young single woman campaign for -as opposed to support- improved fathers rights

but as I've said before, I believe increased opportunity in workplace for women, paternity leave, cheaper childcare and improved fathers rights are all inextricably linked.

Same reason so many young men supported women's rights, same reason so many white people support racial equality and migration rights. Same reason I have marched for gay rights.

Because it is the right thing to do.

fits

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Same reason so many young men supported women's rights, same reason so many white people support racial equality and migration rights. Same reason I have marched for gay rights.

Because it is the right thing to do.

Read my post again. Supporting is different to actively campaigning.

ancapailldorcha

fits wrote: »

Read my post again. Supporting is different to actively campaigning.

I would have thought that marching would constitute campaigning. "Support" could be anything from waving a flag at a rally or wearing a moronic wristband.

iptba

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I wouldn't expect feminists to campaign for men's rights given the issues that women still face.

If feminism was about bringing equality for all and all that is required as some feminists claim, I would expect feminists to campaign for men's rights just as hard as they would campaign for issues that affect women.

But it's clear that feminism is much closer to being like a trade union for women than a true movement for equality.

iptba

On the prisons issues: men and women face very different situations if sent to prison in Mountjoy. Men still have to "slop out" in shared cells - the words don't get across what that is: urinate and defecate and then spend many hours in cell with the smell of your own and someone else's excretion.

Some might say they did the time so they should have to live with it: but why should men and women face different prison conditions for the same crime?

A movement that was about about bringing about equality would highlight this as an inequality. But feminists have not campaigned on this issue or even highlighted this inequality to my knowledge.

ancapailldorcha

iptba wrote: »

A movement that was about about bringing about equality would highlight this as an inequality. But feminists have not campaigned on this issue or even highlighted this inequality to my knowledge.

I've read the odd article calling to end of imprisonment for women.

Here's one example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13666066

iptba

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

iptba wrote:

A movement that was about about bringing about equality would highlight this as an inequality. But feminists have not campaigned on this issue or even highlighted this inequality to my knowledge.

I've read the odd article calling to end of imprisonment for women.

Here's one example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13666066

Yes, which makes my point, rather than argues against it. Here's the full point I wrote rather than the paragraph you picked out:

iptba wrote:

On the prisons issues: men and women face very different situations if sent to prison in Mountjoy. Men still have to "slop out" in shared cells - the words don't get across what that is: urinate and defecate and then spend many hours in cell with the smell of your own and someone else's excretion.

Some might say they did the time so they should have to live with it: but why should men and women face different prison conditions for the same crime?

A movement that was about about bringing about equality would highlight this as an inequality. But feminists have not campaigned on this issue or even highlighted this inequality to my knowledge.

ancapailldorcha

iptba wrote: »

Yes, which makes my point, rather than argues against it. Here's the full point I wrote rather than the paragraph you picked out:

I was agreeing with you.

iptba

Here's an example of where if one doesn't have a group representing men speaking up, one gets an imbalance:

Sept 17
Cuts and casual work hitting women hardest, says women’s council

NWCI says forthcoming budget an opportunity to bring us closer to an equal society

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cuts-and-casual-work-hitting-women-hardest-says-women-s-council-1.1931232?utm_source=morning-digest&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=digests

Although a more neutral term should be "equality-proofing" e.g. a budget, this seems to be generally interpreted (with regard to gender) as looking at ways to help women/ensure women don't lose it.

Bafucin

iptba wrote: »

On the prisons issues: men and women face very different situations if sent to prison in Mountjoy. Men still have to "slop out" in shared cells - the words don't get across what that is: urinate and defecate and then spend many hours in cell with the smell of your own and someone else's excretion.

Some might say they did the time so they should have to live with it: but why should men and women face different prison conditions for the same crime?

A movement that was about about bringing about equality would highlight this as an inequality. But feminists have not campaigned on this issue or even highlighted this inequality to my knowledge.

It's being brought to an end nationwide. Two thirds of male prisoners in mountjoy didn't have to as of 2012 they are trying to phase it out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-prison-slop-out-1590030-Jul2014/

http://www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-toilets-slopping-out-721265-Dec2012/


It's due to lack of facilities. Which is being addressed.

You could mention the fact that female prisoners sometimes have to undress in front of male guards often. The reverse is rarely true due to the high male presence in the profession.

iptba

Bafucin wrote: »

It's being brought to an end nationwide. Two thirds of male prisoners in mountjoy didn't have to as of 2012 they are trying to phase it out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-prison-slop-out-1590030-Jul2014/

http://www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-toilets-slopping-out-721265-Dec2012/


It's due to lack of facilities. Which is being addressed.

Good to know but I remember in the 1990s, Nora Owen chose to upgrade the women's prison at Mountjoy while still leaving men to slop out in the men's prison. She expressed /felt sympathy for women prisoners in way she didn't seem to have for male prisoners.

constance tench

Bafucin wrote: »

It's being brought to an end nationwide. Two thirds of male prisoners in mountjoy didn't have to as of 2012 they are trying to phase it out.

http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-prison-slop-out-1590030-Jul2014/

http://www.thejournal.ie/mountjoy-toilets-slopping-out-721265-Dec2012/


It's due to lack of facilities. Which is being addressed.

You could mention the fact that female prisoners sometimes have to undress in front of male guards often. The reverse is rarely true due to the high male presence in the profession.

link?

Bafucin

iptba wrote: »

Good to know but I remember in the 1990s, Nora Owen chose to upgrade the women's prison at Mountjoy while still leaving men to slop out in the men's prison. She expressed /felt sympathy for women prisoners in way she didn't seem to have for male prisoners.

She was instrumental in opening the castlerea prison in 1996 and Co Roscommon VEC opening the education unit there.It's a medium security male prison. She was key in getting modern prison projects in mountjoy and castlerea operational in the 1990's.

The only time I ever heard her questioned over equality was towards republican prisoners.

I would argue that the reason why the situation where men in prisons experience much worse conditions is that those who run the system aren't that influenced by gender politics but are quite 'macho' and old-fashioned and still buy into old-fashioned ideas of gender, hence, the men have to put up with it.

So, it is not true that the plight of prisoners isn't highlighted by the 'equality-people', in fact very often they are the only ones arguing in support of prisoners. As male prisoners outnumber female prisoners, any measure to support the conditions and outcomes for prisoners will clearly benefit men more than women.

The very people who are PC tend to be the ones arguing for better prisoner conditions ...traditional masculinists tend to be the more 'they deserve it types lock em up and through away the key.

Also they has not been mentioned but ....there are nursing children in most female prisons. There are not in male prisons. That would be a very difficult point to navigate equally. Clearly an issue for women prisoners' that male prisoners simply do not have is that they can be nursing small children.

Clearly men and women who commit THE SAME crime and are a similar security risk should face similar conditions.

Infact I would argue that also prisoners who commit petty crime are often left in conditions for more serious criminals. It's not really a gender issue as an issue of Irish prisons.

And slopping out just to be clear was on its way out a few years ago as I showed you it may be out now.

I think we can safely say though prison conditions in Ireland are not good. In fact the Govt are involved in bad investment, poor infrastructural development, systemic starvation and have rights to uphold that they are not.Saying you think that men are treated like shyte cos women are put up on pedestals when in fact the govt is just overall not investing is fighting the wrong fight. It's a human rights issue being shamefully exploited by some people not necessarily you.

Bafucin

constance tench wrote: »

link?

No problem.

http://www.thejournal.ie/criticism-of-strip-search-in-womens-prison-284439-Nov2011/

Cross gender guard supervision in general is normal though (not of strip searches though). The prison service in this country is a ****ing joke. And half of the shyte is not even reported.

The Department released documents on Friday that were reports into the treatment of prisoners in a number of Irish prisons.

By the way the search included using the boss chair.


Another interesting finding in the report I just found completely by accident.

The committee noted that women prisoners do not have the option of open prison, training unit or other alternatives available to male prisoners.

iptba

(Not short, but there are a lot of points and angles to discuss)
(Sept 18 article)

Crying Rape - False rape accusations exist, and they are a serious problem.

By Cathy Young

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.single.html

laoch na mona

this page is interesting, its a rare example of a positive approach to mens rights https://www.facebook.com/JustSupportingMen

Standman

laoch na mona wrote: »

this page is interesting, its a rare example of a positive approach to mens rights https://www.facebook.com/JustSupportingMen

If by "positive" you mean "feminist", then I'd agree.

ancapailldorcha

Standman wrote: »

If by "positive" you mean "feminist", then I'd agree.

I've liked it for now. I see a post condemning the 4chan response to Emma Watson's speech. I have issues with it but threatening her like that is moronic for a lot of reasons. Anything that brings attention to the fact that we can disagree with her without degrading ourselves to such contemptible behaviour gets a thumbs up from me.

Lemming

laoch na mona wrote: »

this page is interesting, its a rare example of a positive approach to mens rights https://www.facebook.com/JustSupportingMen

Maybe it's just unfortunate that the first comment for the first post I saw claimed that the "excuse" of genetics was used to keep the "patriarchy" on top. So I'll reserve judgement as that post & comment have left a negative first impression and left me somewhat cynical about claims of being some sort of rare, sucessful, positive approach.

fits

Irish parental leave policy is 'maternalist'

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-policy-on-parental-leave-is-maternalist-1.1940295?page=1

LostinBlanch

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've liked it for now. I see a post condemning the 4chan response to Emma Watson's speech. I have issues with it but threatening her like that is moronic for a lot of reasons. Anything that brings attention to the fact that we can disagree with her without degrading ourselves to such contemptible behaviour gets a thumbs up from me.

You mean the 4Chan response that was actually a hoax perpetrated by a marketing company trying to drum up attention for an apparent campaign to shut down 4chan?

But when the clock struck 12, no naked pictures were released. Instead visitors to emmayouarenext.com were pointed to a marketing company's homepage, its black background bearing a crossed-out version of 4chan's four-leaf clover logo, and the hashtag #shutdown4chan written in large white letters. The site was a hoax, designed to draw as many eyes as possible not to actual pictures of Watson but to an apparent campaign set up to attack 4chan.

"None of these women deserve this," the page states. "Join us as we shutdown 4chan and prevent more pictures from being leaked."

the BBC, the Independent and others were duped by a hoax that wouldn't have withstood even a minimal amount of investigative journalism.

And so the circle of sh*te just repeats itself

Maguined

laoch na mona wrote: »

this page is interesting, its a rare example of a positive approach to mens rights https://www.facebook.com/JustSupportingMen

I can't share it with this name. Literally everyone I know would think it means something different than it does. Otherwise, I would. Supporting Men sounds like an MRA 12-step program where you learn to overcome your man-hating feminist ways. Names and word choices do matter. It's the image you present to the world. What about "Stand up to toxic masculinity" for a name? The logo doesn't help either. How about clearly male and clearly female hands holding each other? Something that embodies support, since it seems that healthy support and education are your goals. Please don't take any of this personally. It's constructive and with the idea in mind of helping you grow and succeed with your mission.

This comment which was liked by the page itself does not sound like a positive approach to mens rights seeing as "supporting men" is not considered a positive image but a negative one and the male symbol is also negative image.

Not to mention still claiming women are far more likely to experience domestic violence.

Supporting Men wrote:

You're right, Jennifer. Still, it's a complicated picture. Men are twice as likely to experience a violent crime, and make up two thirds of all homicide victims, while women are far more likely to experience domestic and sexual violence.

ancapailldorcha

LostinBlanch wrote: »

You mean the 4Chan response that was actually a hoax perpetrated by a marketing company trying to drum up attention for an apparent campaign to shut down 4chan?

And so the circle of sh*te just repeats itself

I didn't know that. Here's another piece:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29341593

iptba

(Sept 26 blog post)

Having Sex, Not Having Sex Both Count as Sexual Violence

The feminazis who continue to grind college campuses under the heels of their combat boots regard pretty much everything a male might do as “sexual violence.” This pertains not only to all sex but even to the absence of sex:

Examples of abuse listed on the University of Michigan’s domestic violence awareness website say “sexual violence” includes “withholding sex and affection” and “discounting the partner’s feelings regarding sex” …

The terms, found under the heading “definitions,” also suggest verbal or psychological abuse include: “insulting the partner; ignoring the partner’s feelings; withholding approval as a form of punishment; yelling at the partner; labeling the partner with terms like crazy [and] stupid.” …

Also included in the definition of sexual violence is the example of having “sex with other people.”

http://moonbattery.com/?p=50764

PucaMama

iptba wrote: »

(Sept 26 blog post)

http://moonbattery.com/?p=50764

I don't get the issue, withholding sex and affection as punishment is abuse as is ignoring your partners wishes about sex.

ancapailldorcha

PucaMama wrote: »

I don't get the issue, withholding sex and affection as punishment is abuse as is ignoring your partners wishes about sex.

I think including withholding sex in the definition of sexual violence is a bit of a push. In any case, I don't see too many women being persecuted for this funnily enough so it is a valid example of sexism IMO.

PucaMama

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think including withholding sex in the definition of sexual violence is a bit of a push. In any case, I don't see too many women being persecuted for this funnily enough so it is a valid example of sexism IMO.

Because all the women withhold sex all the time?

Generalising about men is not ok
Generalising about women is not ok

Pawwed Rig

PucaMama wrote: »

Because all the women withhold sex all the time?

He didn't say that.

Mark Hamill

PucaMama wrote: »

I don't get the issue, withholding sex and affection as punishment is abuse as is ignoring your partners wishes about sex.

Wait, are you saying that someone must always have sex with their partner if their partner wants it, regardless of whether they want to have sex themselves?
And what happens if your partner wishes to have a particular type of sex or use an accessory and you ignore this wish, are you then abusing them as well?

PucaMama

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Wait, are you saying that someone must always have sex with their partner if their partner wants it, regardless of whether they want to have sex themselves?
And what happens if your partner wishes to have a particular type of sex or use an accessory and you ignore this wish, are you then abusing them as well?

I said as punishment I.e. to make the partner do what they want

Mark Hamill

PucaMama wrote: »

I said as punishment I.e. to make the partner do what they want

And what happens if it's a case that your partner does something to annoy you and so puts you out of the mood to have sex? Can your partner claim that you are punishing (abusing) them for however they annoyed you?
By your definition giving your partner the silent treatment is abuse.

ancapailldorcha

PucaMama wrote: »

I said as punishment I.e. to make the partner do what they want

Anyone, male or female should have complete autonomy over their own bodies. If someone wants to withhold sex for any reason (including daft ones and manipulation), that's fine as long as they're not surprised when their partner quite rightly buggers off.

ancapailldorcha

Mark Hamill wrote: »

And what happens if it's a case that your partner does something to annoy you and so puts you out of the mood to have sex? Can your partner claim that you are punishing (abusing) them for however they annoyed you?

If you're a female student at the University of Michigan, then yes.