Reloading

tac foley

Ronan - reloading is a VERY lucrative sales line, I can tell you from practical experience working on a well-known company show stall. I was working flat-out like a one-legged man in the county a$$-kicking competition.

Because you CAN afford to shoot more, you DO shoot more. The limitations of shooting store-bought factory ammunition at, say, 30eu a box of 20 whatever, are gone.

So instead of shooting twenty rounds once a month on a range- you can shoot forty or fifty at a weekend session - IF you want to. That's the point of it all - IF you want to shoot that much, then reloading will certainly be a practical proposition for you.

Instead of selling you a single box of twenty, the dealer now sells you -

1. A box of a hundred bullets.

2. A bulk-purchase of 1000 primers.

3. A hundred new cases.

4. Maybe a couple of different types of propellant in one pound or one kilo tubs.

And then, you come back again, for more bullets and more powder and more of the consumable supplies - cases DO wear out. The dealer may also have sold you all your initial set-up of equipment, and like many a home hobby, there is ALWAYS something new out there to make it more interesting and more involving.

In summation - ANY dealer over here in yUK, and, I speak from personal experience from Canada, USA, Germany, France, Switzerland and Finland - who does not also sell reloading gear - is somebody I have not yet encountered.

tac

Glensman

tac foley wrote: »

Ronan - reloading is a VERY lucrative sales line, I can tell you from practical experience working on a well-known company show stall. I was working flat-out like a one-legged man in the county a$$-kicking competition.

Because you CAN afford to shoot more, you DO shoot more. The limitations of shooting store-bought factory ammunition at, say, 30eu a box of 20 whatever, are gone.

So instead of shooting twenty rounds once a month on a range- you can shoot forty or fifty at a weekend session - IF you want to. That's the point of it all - IF you want to shoot that much, then reloading will certainly be a practical proposition for you.

Instead of selling you a single box of twenty, the dealer now sells you -

1. A box of a hundred bullets.

2. A bulk-purchase of 1000 primers.

3. A hundred new cases.

4. Maybe a couple of different types of propellant in one pound or one kilo tubs.

And then, you come back again, for more bullets and more powder and more of the consumable supplies - cases DO wear out. The dealer may also have sold you all your initial set-up of equipment, and like many a home hobby, there is ALWAYS something new out there to make it more interesting and more involving.

In summation - ANY dealer over here in yUK, and, I speak from personal experience from Canada, USA, Germany, France, Switzerland and Finland - who does not also sell reloading gear - is somebody I have not yet encountered.

tac

Then say hello to Donal McCloy in Guns Unlimited.
One of the biggest dealers in Ireland- doesn't stock Any reloading gear (and for that reason no longer has my custom) :mad:

johnfaul

rowa wrote: »

You have to ask also do dealers want reloading in the republic anyway ? They are able to charge some pretty steep prices especially for centrefire rifle hunting ammunition, they mightn't want to undermine their own business.

It should not be about what the dealers want it should be about what the consumer ( the shooter ) wants. i.e they supply what we want

Glensman

I know the reason McCloy's told me they didn't do reloading supplies was because they know nothing about it.
I would say the same is true of a lot of dealers...

ormondprop

how much does it cost per round glensman for your .223 and what bullet are you using and what are speeds like compared to factory rounds?
are you saving much or do you do it for accuracy and as a hobbie

Glensman

ormondprop wrote: »

how much does it cost per round glensman for your .223 and what bullet are you using and what are speeds like compared to factory rounds?
are you saving much or do you do it for accuracy and as a hobbie

I do it for the following reasons (in order): Hobby, accuracy, cost.

I can't remember off hand what a round is costing. I think around 35p for .223 and maybe 55p for .270. The .204 is something similar to the .223.

You can get whatever speed you want. But you need to load to the sweetspot of your rifle...
My .270 doesnt like fast loads so it's running my hunting head at 2850. The .223 is running around 2900-3000 (I'd have to look it up when I get home) and the .204 is running 3750.

The best thing I advise is a few people doing it together. I am loading for 4 rifles, only 2 are mine. That way you are splitting the equipment costs x4 so you will get your money out of it far sooner.

ormondprop

thanks glensman, is that just the cost of bullet, primer and powder? did you start off with new brass or reload once fired brass and is the brass cost added into that? if so thats good going, what bullets do you use for .223 and .204

i agree about groups,i could see myself getting into if i could split the original startup cost and buy good gear and dies,
thats if it if it is legalised but i cant see it happening any time soon, does anybody know how many cf rifle or pistol shooters there are in the country anyway? i presume well over 50% of licensed firearms in the country are shotguns, rimfires and air rifles, and then how many of the centrefire rifle users just use a box or two of ammo each year, and probably never even heard of reloading so would have little or no interest in it and for that reason i cant see the laws governing it being changed.

at the moment i only have 1 centrefire rifle so i dont see it being cost effective, if i win the lotto and have a few different calibers or decided to build a wildcat rifle or get into target shooting i definately would but as it is i dont think i would if it was legalised

It wasn't me!

I've said it before, but my main interest in reloading would be to use interesting things for which the factory ammunition is either not representative, doesn't have the bullets and such that I want or is just too damned expensive. I'd run a 9.3x62 for instance, because despite expensive bullets, you could load it for a reasonable price, unlike the extortionate factory ammo. Also, for anyone who shoots the likes of a 6.5x55 or a 7x57, they can now finally get performance those cartridges are capable of, rather than the lacklustre factory loads. Throw in the fact that it's a good way to kill some time on boring evenings and there's a lot to recommend it even aside from the cost savings.

Glensman

ormondprop wrote: »

thanks glensman, is that just the cost of bullet, primer and powder? did you start off with new brass or reload once fired brass and is the brass cost added into that? if so thats good going, what bullets do you use for .223 and .204

i agree about groups,i could see myself getting into if i could split the original startup cost and buy good gear and dies,
thats if it if it is legalised but i cant see it happening any time soon, does anybody know how many cf rifle or pistol shooters there are in the country anyway? i presume well over 50% of licensed firearms in the country are shotguns, rimfires and air rifles, and then how many of the centrefire rifle users just use a box or two of ammo each year, and probably never even heard of reloading so would have little or no interest in it and for that reason i cant see the laws governing it being changed.

at the moment i only have 1 centrefire rifle so i dont see it being cost effective, if i win the lotto and have a few different calibers or decided to build a wildcat rifle or get into target shooting i definately would but as it is i dont think i would if it was legalised

I'm not factoring brass into that, no.
For the .270 I had some brass and bought some once-fired.

For the 2 .223s I was given a load of brass by a forum member and use it.
the .204 came with it's own once fired brass so I'm using it.

The heads I use are:

.270: 90gr TNTs over Varget, 130gr SSTs over H4350, and 140gr VLDs over H4350
.223: I run 50gr v-max over RE7. My buddy runs 55gr v-max over Viht 133 but they are a bugger to load so he is switching to 53gr v-max.
.204: 39gr SBKs over RE 10x

johngalway

Glensman wrote: »

I know the reason McCloy's told me they didn't do reloading supplies was because they know nothing about it.
I would say the same is true of a lot of dealers...

That's a very strange answer.

In fact I find it a bizarrely strange answer.

What do they have to know other than the price they buy it at, the price they sell it at and any regulations they need to comply with.

Glensman

johngalway wrote: »

That's a very strange answer.

In fact I find it a bizarrely strange answer.

What do they have to know other than the price they buy it at, the price they sell it at and any regulations they need to comply with.

That's what they told me.
They said they were going to send one of the lads on a reloading course so he could learn about it etc.

They said there was so much out there they wouldn't know what powders, heads etc to stock and similar excuses. I told them to stock as much as they possibly could because everyone wants different stuff. They seemed to think there are 'good' and 'bad' powders- rather than different recipes.

I'm starting to believe that a lot of dealers are salesmen and know very little about guns- they just trot out 2nd and 3rd hand information. Much like a car salesman not knowing how to fix the car...

The thing is that because we are an Island it is expensive to get powder in here in small quantities. I would love McCloy's to start because they are probably the only ones big enough to buy powder in bulk to have a selection and get the cost down

tac foley

FGS, you live in Ireland [whatever part of it], not The Maldives. Finding out what to stock is total no-brainer. As the dealer, he knows what are the most popular guns that he sells and stocks accordingly. He'll need to make provision for the many shooters of vintage arms that enjoy almost limitless shooting in NI - there are no 'restricted' calibres there except for .50cal BMG, AFAIK.

I might suggest that he talks to any of the big players on the mainland to see what THEY do for stock, but here's a start...

9mm pistol
.38/357 revolver - plus any others that might from time to time appear - NI shooters can have most ANY handgun without the need to block off chambers or magazines.
.223
.243
.270
6.5x55
7mm
.308
and so on......

A couple or three different bullet weights in each calibre to get started, four or five different powders from the big makers - Vihtavuori, Alliant, Vectan and so on. Primers - small and large rifle, small and large pistol - from a couple of makers, Federal or CCI, and cases from wherever he can get them - FC, S&B, Lapua and so on.

All he has to do to begin to make money is to get off his a$$ and talk to people...'IF I were to start up on selling reloading equipment, what would you want to find in my store?'

I don't see the difficulty, me.

tac, frustrated beyond belief.

Glensman

tac foley wrote: »

FGS, you live in Ireland [whatever part of it], not The Maldives. Finding out what to stock is total no-brainer. As the dealer, he knows what are the most popular guns that he sells and stocks accordingly. He'll need to make provision for the many shooters of vintage arms that enjoy almost limitless shooting in NI - there are no 'restricted' calibres there except for .50cal BMG, AFAIK.

I might suggest that he talks to any of the big players on the mainland to see what THEY do for stock, but here's a start...

9mm pistol
.38/357 revolver - plus any others that might from time to time appear - NI shooters can have most ANY handgun without the need to block off chambers or magazines.
.223
.243
.270
6.5x55
7mm
.308
and so on......

A couple or three different bullet weights in each calibre to get started, four or five different powders from the big makers - Vihtavuori, Alliant, Vectan and so on. Primers - small and large rifle, small and large pistol - from a couple of makers, Federal or CCI, and cases from wherever he can get them - FC, S&B, Lapua and so on.

All he has to do to begin to make money is to get off his a$$ and talk to people...'IF I were to start up on selling reloading equipment, what would you want to find in my store?'

I don't see the difficulty, me.

tac, frustrated beyond belief.

I agree with you 100%!
It's not rocket science and you can figure out most of what you need to know from DVDs. I watched a few excellent ones sent to me by a forum member...

Chiparus

Looking at the cost for say 270, I would guestimate each round would be about 80c to a euro to reload,

cases 80 euro for 50 , life span 8 reloads so 20c per reload
Projectiles 40 euro per 100 so 40c per reload
powder 50 euro per .5kg 170 loads 30c per reload
primer 4c

rowa

Chiparus wrote: »

Looking at the cost for say 270, I would guestimate each round would be about 80c to a euro to reload,

cases 80 euro for 50 , life span 8 reloads so 20c per reload
Projectiles 40 euro per 100 so 40c per reload
powder 50 euro per .5kg 170 loads 30c per reload
primer 4c

There is still a good saving to be had though chiparus , most of the decent hunting ammunition for deer or fox/varmint rifles seems to be in the 35-40 euro per box range, so reloading would mean you could shoot for half price basically, also from what i have read about it in american shooting media , it becomes a hobby in itself , much as tying flys does to fishermen.

Chiparus

Absolutely, the fun is in the doing more than just the saving, you can get reasonable factory loads for similar prices (e.g. PPU) But you get great satisfaction spending time preparing cases, developing loads, finding which projectile suits your gun etc

Longranger

I'd love to do it as a hobby. I've been fly fishing since i was knee high and i love tying flies. It's like free therapy:-) when you get pissed off you just sit down,lay out your hooks,feathers,threads,varnish,tools,vice,patterns and then you make something beautiful:-) catching a trout on your own hand tied flies is a wonderful feeling. My local tackle shop sells flies for 1-2 euro and i can make better ones for 25c a piece. I can't wait to reload as I would LOVE to be able to nail charlie and say"i made that one just for you,and it cost me ****-all"! :-) :-)

EWQuinn

http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

This will give you a rough idea. Handloads.com is sometimes helpful. Of course you dont trust handloads posted on line without cross reference with published data in reloading manual(s), and preferrably some experience.

No, you don't need a reloading certification program. However given the shooting restrictions, what are the chances of getting it approved without some kind of regulation? A good training class with minimal micromanagement from nanny gov would be just fine. Attitudes toward shooting sports are changing in the USA, including among women, Europe could be similar. Reloading (and storage of components) for smokeless powder loading is a very safe and useful for accurate hunting and target work.

Obviously, the best way to learn properly in addition to studying the manuals is to get an experienced "mentor".

tac foley

Mr Quinn, Sir - the Republic of Ireland is the only country in the EU that while permiting its citizens to have firearms, nevertheless effectively prohibits them from any form of reloading.

There are, as always, exceptions to the rule, but the miniscule number of those who ARE allowed to reload [around forty in total] can effectively be ignored in the overall scheme of things.

I can't find any legislation anywhere in the EU that states that training classes per se are required, although as ever, there ARE money-making 'courses' run by various organisations like the British NRA et al who will charge you for the privilege of doing what you can do for nothing in an evening with a mentor.

As for changing attitudes 'among women', almost forty-two years ago I married mrs tac because she was also a shooter - with bow and gun. She also had a reliable car, and was tolerably good-looking, too, she reminds me as I write these words.

tac

johnfaul

How do we change this then?
Do we sit back and let the higher powers decide when or never?
Surely theres a way that we could speed things along and let them know that rifle shooters in this country should have the choice to reload or not.

rowa

johnfaul wrote: »

How do we change this then?
Do we sit back and let the higher powers decide when or never?
Surely theres a way that we could speed things along and let them know that rifle shooters in this country should have the choice to reload or not.

Don't rock the boat , there is a pilot scheme ongoing in the midlands, if it goes well then reloading might get the green light. Table thumping would p**s off the ptb and it might end in tears.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

........... but the miniscule number of those who ARE allowed to reload [around forty in total] can effectively be ignored in the overall scheme of things.

Firstly it's more than forty, and secondly where do you think reloading would be had these people not done something to get reloading? Would it have made a stronger or weaker case for others to get it? Would reloading even be something that others could work to get or would it be gone for everyone?

So dismissing/ignoring the hard work of these people is short sighted.

johnfaul wrote: »

How do we change this then?
Do we sit back and let the higher powers decide when or never?
Surely theres a way that we could speed things along and let them know that rifle shooters in this country should have the choice to reload or not.

As i've said numerous times before when the DoJ asked for submissions from organisations, clubs, individuals, and ranges they received only one application. All others refused it. In the last 12 months we have shown how reloading can be used effectively, and safely. The scheme has grown considerably, and continues to do so.

All this added to the up coming explosives bill due sometime this year should help ease any concerns the DoJ/Gardaí have with people having reloading.

Lastly while other countries have it (in however form it is restricted/goverened) to us it's irrelevant. We are in Ireland, and as has been said many times before we have no right to firearms so instead of "thumping the table", and demanding something we have no right to we continue to show them that we can have and use reloading safely, and by doing so encourage them to open it up to others.

tac foley

My meaning was easy to comprehend, - by comparison with the [2008 figures] 233,120 licensed firearms owners in the RoI, the forty or so ARE a minuscule percentage. I am not detracting from the amount of effort by the best shooters in the country that it took to get what little reloading exists, simply pointing out that for the other 233,080 license-holders, there is none.

In case the point has been missed - that's just one reloader per 5228 shooters, or 0.7 of 1%. Another way of looking at it is to consider Croke Park filled with spectators - something that we can all readily imagine. At capacity, that's 82,300 bums on seats.

At present figures, just sixteen of them might be reloaders...

And in case you think, nay are convinced, that I'm shouting from the wings, I DO have a vested interest in reloading in the Republic. As part of an Irish shooting organisation - admittedly from a distance - I am as keen to see reloading happening for all my fellow members who wish to carry it out as anybody who actually lives there.

tac

juice1304

Whatever about it being good for the argument it dose'nt really matter the scheme has been going on for quite some time now and only benefits very few people. It's not fair and unconstitutional imo, What make your shooting anymore important than mine? It's all personal prospective. I think there is a bit of a need for some table banging, If they have concerns why can't they get on the horn to our neighbors in the north or uk or any other country in the eu and have them put their minds at ease. Because otherwise they will just say there is no point in bringing it in, as it is no benefit for anyone else and no one else has shown interest anyway. If they are going to say "oh but someone will make pipe bombs" etc.. that is just rubbish anyone can go up the north and buy fireworks and do that if they want so that argument is void.

Mike87

Not trying to start a row here,

BUT

If the DOJ said that they would give the green light for reloading but we all had to do a course/get a seperate licence/pay a fee. I for one would take hand and all.

I dont see a problem with courses. Its the same as the HCAP or that meat handling course they have now. Its a one off thing, it doesnt even cost that much, and at the very worst you will walk away not having learned anything and not having made any new contacts. I really dont know why people get so uppety about them.

rowa

juice1304 wrote: »

Whatever about it being good for the argument it dose'nt really matter the scheme has been going on for quite some time now and only benefits very few people. It's not fair and unconstitutional imo, What make your shooting anymore important than mine? It's all personal prospective. I think there is a bit of a need for some table banging, If they have concerns why can't they get on the horn to our neighbors in the north or uk or any other country in the eu and have them put their minds at ease. Because otherwise they will just say there is no point in bringing it in, as it is no benefit for anyone else and no one else has shown interest anyway. If they are going to say "oh but someone will make pipe bombs" etc.. that is just rubbish anyone can go up the north and buy fireworks and do that if they want so that argument is void.

Yeah bang the table all you want but remember what happened in the gun safe case and pistols case , the gardai/doj get defeated in court and they simply go away and change the rules, you win a battle but lose the war. i can't see the problem , if the pilot scheme in the midlands is successful then more than likely reloading will be made available to all.

fish slapped

juice1304 wrote: »

Whatever about it being good for the argument it dose'nt really matter the scheme has been going on for quite some time now and only benefits very few people. It's not fair and unconstitutional imo, What make your shooting anymore important than mine? It's all personal prospective. I think there is a bit of a need for some table banging,

---

Well why didn't you or whatever shooting organizations your involved in speak up when the question was asked ???


We've all sat in the restaurant and ordered the roast beef, only to see a steak going by and thought... Darn, I should've ordered that!

We've had our share of table bangers in this country for centuries ... And most start banging the table cause of what others have ... And that is a terrible trait in a person and a people ...

Why not work with those who have the reloading pilot scheme and are involved , instead of throwing a tantrum and table banging ...

tac foley

Good point, FS.

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

I can't find any legislation anywhere in the EU that states that training classes per se are required,

Mr Tac,
I hate to inform you that in Germany it is MANDATORY under the firearms law!! Its a lengthy enough course of paperwork,appx 2 weeks worth of class time that covers 95% things like High explosives,their properties,chemical compostions,UN designations,safe storage and transport requirements etc.
Great if you are going to make a profession of blowing things up,or down as the case may be,but absolutely useless as a reloader.The actual reloading of ammo is coverd in about two hours.:rolleyes: 90 % of the exam is related to the explosives,their storage and whatnot,10% to actual reloading.IF it comes in here,guess how much padding there will be in it from the private run course or the state??
Somthing that can be taught in an afternoon will no doubt be a month long expensive exercise.:rolleyes:

johnfaul

Ezridax wrote: »

Firstly it's more than forty, and secondly where do you think reloading would be had these people not done something to get reloading? Would it have made a stronger or weaker case for others to get it? Would reloading even be something that others could work to get or would it be gone for everyone?

So dismissing/ignoring the hard work of these people is short sighted.


As i've said numerous times before when the DoJ asked for submissions from organisations, clubs, individuals, and ranges they received only one application. All others refused it. In the last 12 months we have shown how reloading can be used effectively, and safely. The scheme has grown considerably, and continues to do so.

All this added to the up coming explosives bill due sometime this year should help ease any concerns the DoJ/Gardaí have with people having reloading.

Lastly while other countries have it (in however form it is restricted/goverened) to us it's irrelevant. We are in Ireland, and as has been said many times before we have no right to firearms so instead of "thumping the table", and demanding something we have no right to we continue to show them that we can have and use reloading safely, and by doing so encourage them to open it up to others.

Goes to to show what good the NARGC are
All for themselves