What have the cuts meant to your school?

bdoo

Loads of talk of cuts but what have they meant to your school?

for Sept 2012

500 pupil VEC DEIS.

-2 x fulltime sna's
-1 x wte teacher due to lcvp ptr change
-1 x wte teacher due to guidance cut
-1 x wte teacher due to cut in resource hours

No dcg class next year

Physics and chemistry gone to a year on year off basis.

Transition year numbers will be capped from next year.

music in danger for next year also.

Question over the continuation of a second European language.

school is in a growth phase so no teacher has lost a job but several will have hours cut.

Not good. Very hard to deliver a service with changes like this.


solutions?

we could continue to offer subjects if we were allowed to shorten the school week from 28 hours which is a big deal with the dept.

Merge CSPE and SPHE

Any other Ideas?

rainbowtrout

what's happened to your classes sizes??

We've lost two teachers. One redeployed and other gone completely.

Most classes will be 30+ in my school next year. Particularly for core English and Irish. We've managed to hang on to all our subjects just about, physics 5th and 6th will be in together. Only one business subject offered to 5th years. Science is particularly strong in my school so we're offering all four sciences next year. No TY though.
We went to 28 hours 2 years ago so we can't cut any further there.

Hard to know what the solution is? Offer Physics with Chemistry combined subject to keep the subjects on the timetable in some shape or form?

When we cut to 28 hours, we changed the timetable from 9 x 40 min classes Mon- Fri to 10 x 35 Mon- Wed and 9 x 35 Thurs/Fri. So less time but more class periods overall. Meant we could keep all our subjects. It also means a teacher on full hours has at least one extra class group, sometimes two depending on the subject and if it's JC/LC in the same number of hours. 35 mins are tough though, the 5 minutes extra in the 40 min class made all the difference often for getting stuff done. Practicals are a pain when 10 mins is cut off the double class.

Also to keep subject choice, number of class periods given to some subjects for JC was reduced, say from 4 to 3, or in some cases 3 to 2.

gaeilgebeo

Similar size school to yours Bdoo.
VEC DEIS school too.
We are losing :

• 1 teacher due to resource/language support cuts.
• 1 teacher due to increase in PTR.
• 1 teacher due to guidance teacher and full-time resource teacher going (partly) mainstream.
• 1 full-time SNA.
• Any part-time teachers remaining are having a cut in hours, which were already cut last year.

• We no longer offer music/physics as a leaving cert option.
• This will be the last year we will offer both TY and LCA. One will have to go.
• 2 of our teachers will now be working between 2 schools in the county. There hours will be split, ie, .3 in one school, .7 in another.

This has been the worst year in our schools history for cutbacks and the last month in school was awful. Our principal said there was nothing she could do and our CEO has warned that things are set to get worse in the next few years.

therunaround

On top of the above were losing a couple of year heads. Already went through a year with no first year year head and it's disastrous on discipline too much pressure on the vice. I heard of a school here in da midlands where 8 snAs were cut it seems u can only get an smabnow if it's a physical disability. The chickens are coming home to roost now re cuts, people get what they wish for

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

what's happened to your classes sizes??

We've lost two teachers. One redeployed and other gone completely.

Most classes will be 30+ in my school next year. Particularly for core English and Irish. We've managed to hang on to all our subjects just about, physics 5th and 6th will be in together. Only one business subject offered to 5th years. Science is particularly strong in my school so we're offering all four sciences next year. No TY though.
We went to 28 hours 2 years ago so we can't cut any further there.

Hard to know what the solution is? Offer Physics with Chemistry combined subject to keep the subjects on the timetable in some shape or form?

When we cut to 28 hours, we changed the timetable from 9 x 40 min classes Mon- Fri to 10 x 35 Mon- Wed and 9 x 35 Thurs/Fri. So less time but more class periods overall. Meant we could keep all our subjects. It also means a teacher on full hours has at least one extra class group, sometimes two depending on the subject and if it's JC/LC in the same number of hours. 35 mins are tough though, the 5 minutes extra in the 40 min class made all the difference often for getting stuff done. Practicals are a pain when 10 mins is cut off the double class.

Also to keep subject choice, number of class periods given to some subjects for JC was reduced, say from 4 to 3, or in some cases 3 to 2.

That is terrible. :eek: I really hope the DES don't go down this road.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

That is terrible. :eek: I really hope the DES don't go down this road.

We're doing it to hang onto the subject. It plays havoc with the timetable cos the block the 5th physics is on has to be timetabled against the 6th physics block, so 8 classes (well 7 as physics is combined) will have to run concurrently. Aside from being tough for the students and teacher it can make timetabling a nightmare if say physics, chemistry, and 2 ag science classes end up on at the same time as well as some JC science and not enough labs for everyone. Has happened before.

We have 60-65 students going into 3rd year. Small enough year for us. There will only be 2 Irish classes in third year :eek: Again this will have a knock on effect on discipline. If more cuts come down the line next year it will be subjects, because we have nothing more to give size wise.

You've had some pretty savage cuts in your school gaeilgebeo.

gaeilgebeo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We're doing it to hang onto the subject. It plays havoc with the timetable cos the block the 5th physics is on has to be timetabled against the 6th physics block, so 8 classes (well 7 as physics is combined) will have to run concurrently. Aside from being tough for the students and teacher it can make timetabling a nightmare if say physics, chemistry, and 2 ag science classes end up on at the same time as well as some JC science and not enough labs for everyone. Has happened before.

We have 60-65 students going into 3rd year. Small enough year for us. There will only be 2 Irish classes in third year :eek: Again this will have a knock on effect on discipline. If more cuts come down the line next year it will be subjects, because we have nothing more to give size wise.

I just think the focus and demands of 5th years and 6th years are a million miles apart. I really feel for the teachers.
Two Irish classes with 65 students? :eek: How will that be split into the 3 levels needed? Do JCSP students even get a look in?

rainbowtrout

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I just think the focus and demands of 5th years and 6th years are a million miles apart. I really feel for the teachers.
Two Irish classes with 65 students? :eek: How will that be split into the 3 levels needed? Do JCSP students even get a look in?

Have no idea - I imagine one class will be honours with some of the stronger ordinary level students and the other will be the weaker ordinary level/foundation. Don't have JCSP, that's not to say we don't have students who could do with it.

Combining year groups is common enough in small schools with less than 150 students. Not ideal, but in schools like that necessary to offer any kind of a subject choice. Not advocating it, but for some subjects it is 'doable' as sections of the course are stand alone and don't need the prior knowledge of a different section of the course. Physics would lend itself to this, not that I envy the physics teacher for a minute for her class next year. Can learn mechanics without knowing anything about electricity etc. Perhaps not so good for other subjects where you build up a foundation before you go on to the advanced stuff.

Will music/physics be dropped permanently in your school or will it be on a year to year basis and the subject with the lowest numbers gets the chop in any given year? Can't imagine music will survive for long at JC level if there is no follow on either.

With the way things are going, subject combinations like French/Biology/Geography/Business are going to become quite common for LC as schools lose their minority subjects and students have less choice. So much for encouraging students into science and technology.

bdoo

Class sizes are at 30 since last year. next year we will have 100 or so in first to fifth 30 in Ty and 70ish in 6th year.

we have a 4 way split in maths / eng / Irish try to keep foundation class small. We have jcsp which had a stand alone maths and English class plus two extra periods they will still have two extra but will be in mainstream for the rest.

the more i think the more i remember. classes are teeming.
Practical classes are jammed with kids doing subjects they dont want as choice is limited now because we can justify running a small class.

rainbowtrout

Physical space is actually going to become an issue for us. Have plenty of classrooms but school was only built 10 years ago, so quite a number of the classrooms were only built to accommodate 24 students max and even at that some of them are a bit crowded. One or two classrooms are even full with 20 students in them. As large numbers become commonplace it's going to be interesting fitting the kids in.

bdoo

It's a fair headache for the principal. Ours only found out today that the two SNA's had to go. One of them started with me 8 years ago - Imagine having to deliver that news or worse imagine having to receive it.

Another thing for us will be LCVP, it's great for the kids as the can get so many points for it but we might have to look at capping it at 50% of a year group. Maybe the extra points for HL maths might take the pressure off there and accommodate some of them.

If we our numbers were static or falling we would have lost people this year - we are very lucky. Our bus routes are under pressure now too with CIE playing havoc with our catchment area which could see our numbers fall over the coming years.

There are no good news stories.

bdoo

therunaround wrote: »

On top of the above were losing a couple of year heads. Already went through a year with no first year year head and it's disastrous on discipline too much pressure on the vice. I heard of a school here in da midlands where 8 snAs were cut it seems u can only get an smabnow if it's a physical disability. The chickens are coming home to roost now re cuts, people get what they wish for

Who wished for the cuts?

spurious

bdoo wrote: »

Who wished for the cuts?

Blloody over funded education sector.
Teachers and their holidays.
I had a teacher who read the paper all day.
Kill Frankenstein.

Visit AH some time and see what 'a certain sector' think of public services.

Feeona

spurious wrote: »

Visit AH some time and see what 'a certain sector' think of public services.

It's always the same few people though. And funnily enough, they don't see the hypocrisy in taking many hours out of their working day to complain about the ineptitude of the public sector!

Some awful cuts on this thread. I can just imagine someone sitting in their office with a pen poised over a paper, cutting swathes of numbers, jobs etc. The end result is something as basic as trying to fit 25-30 people into a room designed for 24. It seems we always have to put the student first in education unless the classroom is too small. Then you 'just have to work around it' despite the obvious health and safety issues of an over crowded classroom.

This 'make do with what you have' trait of the DES is a downright insult to those students who are the future of this country, and it's an unnecessary added pressure for teaching staff who need to be on top form to guide these students.

puffishoes

bdoo wrote: »

Any other Ideas?

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

gaeilgebeo

puffishoes wrote: »

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

Great suggestions there, as always Puffishoes. :rolleyes:

puffishoes

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Great suggestions there, as always Puffishoes. :rolleyes:

Thank you.

Maybe you can take each point and explain exactly what is wrong with the suggestion instead of making a snarky remark with your rolling eyes?

I won't hold my breath.

doc_17

We've lost a wte due to the guidance cut but hopefully we won't lose anybody and the cut might be spread around the PT teachers and everyone can keep their job.

In terms of subject choice we're cutting it thin but did manage to hold on to all those we had. If I were in charge though I would lose LCVP before I ever went near subjects like Music, Chemistry, Physics etc.

rainbowtrout

puffishoes wrote: »

Thank you.

Maybe you can take each point and explain exactly what is wrong with the suggestion instead of making a snarky remark with your rolling eyes?

I won't hold my breath.

Maybe you could explain why you think music/languages and religion should all be cut and be optional.

In most schools that offer music, it is optional anyway, I've never heard of compulsory music anywhere.

Non-exam religion I'd have no problem in cutting, if schools are offering it as exam subject well that's their choice.

I have no idea why you would want to cut languages.

gaeilgebeo

puffishoes wrote: »

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.
Religion and music are not on the "daily" curriculum.:rolleyes:
With the exception of Irish, foreign languages are choice subjects and also an entry requirement for most third level courses.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.
6 of one, half dozen of the other?
Can you explain how this would save money, particularly the running costs of a school?

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty low.
Do you expect these teachers to do so for free? Who will pay them to do the required number of classes per week, after hours, to cover a syllabus? Do you actually believe this will save money?

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

No it would not, as I've outlined above.

doc_17

Remove the summer break? Hmmmm aside from the fact that it is a stupid idea, the country couldn't afford it anyway!

spurious

Combine the numbers of small second level schools into one per thousand kids, properly equipped, offering all subjects at all levels to all comers.

There are some small towns and suburbs in Ireland with up to four second level schools offering much the same programmes. Rationalise and maximise resources.

**sorry got interrupted.

We're probably losing a subject at LC.
We have already combined CSPE, SPHE and Religion, after a fashion.
Larger classes all round.
A number of children who had SNAs in primary now have none, so we have them to deal with too.
Some classes with three levels in them, most with two.

gaeilgebeo

spurious wrote: »

Combine the numbers of small second level schools into one per thousand kids, properly equipped, offering all subjects at all levels to all comers.

There are some small towns and suburbs in Ireland with up to four second level schools offering much the same programmes. Rationalise and maximise resources.

**sorry got interrupted.

We're probably losing a subject at LC.
We have already combined CSPE, SPHE and Religion, after a fashion.
Larger classes all round.
A number of children who had SNAs in primary now have none, so we have them to deal with too.
Some classes with three levels in them, most with two.

How does this work Spurious? How would you be covered for a WSE?

bdoo

puffishoes wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

Any other Ideas?

Yes,

Remove subjects like Religion/music/language's from the daily curricular.

shorten the overall day and remove the summer break.

Music/lanagues/religion etc should be optional and bring in part time teachers for after normal hours to teach these as I imagine the numbers will be pretty

This should save enough to bring back in anything _important_ you lost.

So school should not prepare kids for any European language? good plan. U should ring Ruari with that one. If you had mentioned that 10 years ago maybe we wouldn't be in this mess! Imagine it, French, German next thing they'll want to teach English. Its a language I think?

and religious education which touches on issues of tolerance and diversity not just learn your prayers like it was in my day. bit xenophobic are we?

but you're right about music its just silly. banging drums and singing... madness. im not sure how it ever got on the curriculum in the first place. Bono would be fairly sick if the clocks were turned back and his school didn't support musical talents, arrogant p**** anyway, probably would have been a teacher instead.

Puffishoes, you clearly know nothing of this topic, as I have outlined above your arguments are NONSENSE!

Good day to you.

bdoo

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

How does this work Spurious? How would you be covered for a WSE?

I'd love to know too Spurious, I think a single subject would be Ideal and still address the need for something like this.

Miss Lockhart

We've been cut by 110 hours or 5 WTE. We have also lost 2 SNAs.

I don't really understand how - we are a large DEIS school with increasing enrollment. I know it involves the LCVP PTR change, the guidance cuts and some disadvantage scheme "legacy" posts. We have also had 8 retirements in the last 2 years.

I know that our principal and deputy principal will be teaching for the first time in over 10 years.

The only way we could increase our class numbers would be by increasing the special needs classes to over 20. All other classes are 30+ or 24 for practical classes.

We have already dropped physics and chemistry which had very low take-up. They are offered Physics-Chemistry if demand meets a certain amount. TY is currently compulsory but that is up for review now.

We are missing many post-holders at the moment including a principal of the PLC college which has around 400 students.

If it was me I would first cut religion other than as an exam subject - especially for senior cycle. Then I would get rid of chaplains - I can't believe guidance was cut before this. CSPE would be next and SPHE - even though I really think they should stay, then LCVP.

I also agree with Spurious re small schools.

bdoo

That's rough Miss Lockhart.

I agree about small schools too. Even some biggish ones.

I know a biggish town with a VEC school of 400 and a CBS of 350. New school in the pipeline for VEC and the CBS is being extended at the min. 2 x Principals, 2 x Deputies plus all the rest! Makes no sense. Also a convent in the town.

doc_17

Doesn't SPHE and Religion HAVE to be on the timetable?

Amalgamating schools is already happening (has happened) is some places.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

We've been cut by 110 hours or 5 WTE. We have also lost 2 SNAs.

I don't really understand how - we are a large DEIS school with increasing enrollment. I know it involves the LCVP PTR change, the guidance cuts and some disadvantage scheme "legacy" posts. We have also had 8 retirements in the last 2 years.

I know that our principal and deputy principal will be teaching for the first time in over 10 years.

The only way we could increase our class numbers would be by increasing the special needs classes to over 20. All other classes are 30+ or 24 for practical classes.

We have already dropped physics and chemistry which had very low take-up. They are offered Physics-Chemistry if demand meets a certain amount. TY is currently compulsory but that is up for review now.

We are missing many post-holders at the moment including a principal of the PLC college which has around 400 students.

If it was me I would first cut religion other than as an exam subject - especially for senior cycle. Then I would get rid of chaplains - I can't believe guidance was cut before this. CSPE would be next and SPHE - even though I really think they should stay, then LCVP.

I also agree with Spurious re small schools.

bdoo wrote: »

That's rough Miss Lockhart.

I agree about small schools too. Even some biggish ones.

I know a biggish town with a VEC school of 400 and a CBS of 350. New school in the pipeline for VEC and the CBS is being extended at the min. 2 x Principals, 2 x Deputies plus all the rest! Makes no sense. Also a convent in the town.

That sounds fairly rough. Forgot to mention our chaplain is going to be teaching 22 hours religion next year, obviously she's not too happy about that. Not sure how school can do that but it's happening.

Town 25 miles down the road from me, has 3 schools in the town, a CBS, convent and a community college. Population: 5000. WTF? How is this allowed to continue in this day and age.

Another town population about 7000, has 4 schools. Absolutely ridiculous.

spurious

For the SPHE/CSPE/Religion thing....
We have hour long classes and I think the kids spend two hours a week on this amalgam of subjects. I'm not directly involved in it, but I think they have more of an emphasis on each subject in different years. We've been through a WSE and seem to have been fulfilling whatever criteria they had.

We take CSPE fairly seriously in our place and there is an extensive volunteering and genuine service ethic among many of the kids in the school. We've been involved with Localise Ireland for years, so maybe the DES liked that.

byhookorbycrook

I see it's mainly secondary so far .15% overall cuts in resource time makes timetabling a nightmare and it's going to be very difficult to meet the individual needs of each child.Modern Language programme has been lost from our school and for the first time in 25 years we won't have it.

E.T.

Primary here too. Cuts in SNA hours over the last few years have been very detrimental across the board. My blood boils when I hear the spin about all (applicable) children having "access" to an SNA. Access can mean an SNA shared between 4 children in different classrooms, and none of them are getting the level of support they need.

bdoo

The NCSE have tried to dress up the cuts too. They give examples in their press release.

http://www.ncse.ie/uploads/1/Press_Release.doc

They give an example of a child with an allocation losing 15 mins per week. But its more than that. it affects other kids too.

They also mention the upper limit of sna allocation. I wonder will displaced sna's go on a panel or what will happen. Has anyone heard?

such spin i never if it wasn't so serious it would be funny

puffishoes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe you could explain why you think music/languages and religion should all be cut and be optional.

Well music is a fairly "specialist" subject and for IMHO unless you have a pressing interest in it the resources could be used towards something more useful. Religion should be taught in the home not at school. Religion has no place in the education system imo the same way it has no place in the work place.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

In most schools that offer music, it is optional anyway, I've never heard of compulsory music anywhere.

I didn't know this, when i went to school (not THAT long ago it was compulsory. so I assumed it was the same.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Non-exam religion I'd have no problem in cutting, if schools are offering it as exam subject well that's their choice.

Why make it compulsory, in fact there's an argument for secondary school that nothing should be compulsory.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I have no idea why you would want to cut languages.

there not being "cut" it's an option to offer during say the summer months. IF you want to do it.

having a lot of people in classes they have no interest in increases the chance of "messing" etc and distracting from students who actually want to get on with it.

I would have thought this was self explanatory

puffishoes

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

No it would not, as I've outlined above.

if you could format your post correctly i'll take the time to answer it.

puffishoes

doc_17 wrote: »

Remove the summer break? Hmmmm aside from the fact that it is a stupid idea, the country couldn't afford it anyway!

i think you'll find it could

so say you have a teacher on 60k

5k a month + pension + whatever

You remove all the teachers from those subjects are pay based on 9 months instead of 12 (like every other job)

You use a % of the savings to bring in part time staff = no pension to pay etc etc etc as you only have them on your books during the perioid required.

fairly straight forward works in every other industry. look up "fixed term contracts"

doc_17

The trouble with sending everyone to school is that people think they are experts just because they have sat in a classroom!

Puffishoes - Compulsory music are second level? Very interesting that! I wonder where you as questioning then because i'd love to know how that happened.

puffishoes

bdoo wrote: »

So school should not prepare kids for any European language? good plan. U should ring Ruari with that one. If you had mentioned that 10 years ago maybe we wouldn't be in this mess! Imagine it, French, German next thing they'll want to teach English. Its a language I think?

They can prepare kids who are interested in it during the summer months if they wish or if the parents wish.

bdoo wrote: »

and religious education which touches on issues of tolerance and diversity not just learn your prayers like it was in my day. bit xenophobic are we?

Not at all, but it should be a parents choice to what their kids are taught about religion. again if they wish to pursue more knowledge in it they can. or if the parents wish it they can. but it _should_ be optional

bdoo wrote: »

but you're right about music its just silly. banging drums and singing... madness. im not sure how it ever got on the curriculum in the first place. Bono would be fairly sick if the clocks were turned back and his school didn't support musical talents, arrogant p**** anyway, probably would have been a teacher instead.

I have no problem with the option of music OPTION.

bdoo wrote: »

Puffishoes, you clearly know nothing of this topic, as I have outlined above your arguments are NONSENSE!

Good day to you.

I seem to understand and know a lot more about it than most teachers it would seem.

puffishoes

doc_17 wrote: »

The trouble with sending everyone to school is that people think they are experts just because they have sat in a classroom!

Puffishoes - Compulsory music are second level? Very interesting that! I wonder where you as questioning then because i'd love to know how that happened.

I can't really understand the question.

Are you asking when did it happen?

Can you try and format your questions more clearly otherwise I can't answer them

rainbowtrout

puffishoes wrote: »

Well music is a fairly "specialist" subject and for IMHO unless you have a pressing interest in it the resources could be used towards something more useful. Religion should be taught in the home not at school. Religion has no place in the education system imo the same way it has no place in the work place.



I didn't know this, when i went to school (not THAT long ago it was compulsory. so I assumed it was the same.



Why make it compulsory, in fact there's an argument for secondary school that nothing should be compulsory.


there not being "cut" it's an option to offer during say the summer months. IF you want to do it.

having a lot of people in classes they have no interest in increases the chance of "messing" etc and distracting from students who actually want to get on with it.

I would have thought this was self explanatory

Music wouldn't be offered if there wasn't a demand, in my school there is a demand. Not everyone can be a scientist as much as I would like them to be. Creative people are needed and valued in society believe it or not and I think my school is all the better for offering music and art for Leaving Cert. I would be very sad to see them go, and we would be far worse off.

If you don't know how the system works, can you educate yourself on it before posting rubbish in this forum?

Students and teachers need a break during the summer, nobody is going to work through the year on a subject that can be taught during the school year. Seeing as you're so in favour of cutting subjects left, right and centre, I'd love to see what kind of a curriculum you would put forward. What should the students of the country be doing from September to May each year?


There are students in every subject who do not want to be there. Such is life, you sometimes have to do things you don't like. Get over it. Dropping languages and music won't change that.

puffishoes wrote: »

i think you'll find it could

so say you have a teacher on 60k

5k a month + pension + whatever

You remove all the teachers from those subjects are pay based on 9 months instead of 12 (like every other job)

You use a % of the savings to bring in part time staff = no pension to pay etc etc etc as you only have them on your books during the perioid required.

fairly straight forward works in every other industry. look up "fixed term contracts"

Again, don't throw around figures without back up for them.
You do realise that providing a pension is a legal requirement for an employer? Part time staff are entitled to be offered a pension too. Really your suggestions are becoming more and more ludicrous.

Fixed term contracts already exist in teaching, again something you should educate yourself on.

puffishoes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Music wouldn't be offered if there wasn't a demand, in my school there is a demand. Not everyone can be a scientist as much as I would like them to be. Creative people are needed and valued in society believe it or not and I think my school is all the better for offering music and art for Leaving Cert. I would be very sad to see them go, and we would be far worse off.

If there's a demand then we meet it, I'm not stating otherwise, but I imagine the demand differe greatly across geo's. So where there is we offer it. not a problem where there's not we don't or, we offer it as said during the summer months. I'm sure you would be sad but this is not about you personally. it seems everyone wants the butter and the money for it.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If you don't know how the system works, can you educate yourself on it before posting rubbish in this forum?

Students and teachers need a break during the summer, nobody is going to work through the year on a subject that can be taught during the school year. Seeing as you're so in favour of cutting subjects left, right and centre, I'd love to see what kind of a curriculum you would put forward. What should the students of the country be doing from September to May each year?

Students will have a break and a shorter school day. this works in other countries. It seems anything that involves teachers working more hours or reduced wages is "rubbish"

rainbowtrout wrote: »

There are students in every subject who do not want to be there. Such is life, you sometimes have to do things you don't like. Get over it. Dropping languages and music won't change that.

Nice attitude. it might not change it, but it gets the savings and reduces the wage bill which is the problem and keeps things like teacher assitants and other items teachers are looking for.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Again, don't throw around figures without back up for them.
You do realise that providing a pension is a legal requirement for an employer? Part time staff are entitled to be offered a pension too. Really your suggestions are becoming more and more ludicrous.

If a school brings in part time staff from say an outsourcing company like CPL. Then CPL is the employer and it is up to them to provide the pension not the company taking on the contract. Maybe you should spend a few months in the real world where these things happen _all_ the time. you don't outsource because it costs the same or more it's because, wait for it...it's CHEAPER. <----

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Fixed term contracts already exist in teaching, again something you should educate yourself on.

I don't need to.

rainbowtrout

puffishoes wrote: »

If there's a demand then we meet it, I'm not stating otherwise, but I imagine the demand differe greatly across geo's. So where there is we offer it. not a problem where there's not we don't or, we offer it as said during the summer months. I'm sure you would be sad but this is not about you personally. it seems everyone wants the butter and the money for it.



Students will have a break and a shorter school day. this works in other countries. It seems anything that involves teachers working more hours or reduced wages is "rubbish"



Nice attitude. it might not change it, but it gets the savings and reduces the wage bill which is the problem and keeps things like teacher assitants and other items teachers are looking for.



If a school brings in part time staff from say an outsourcing company like CPL. Then CPL is the employer and it is up to them to provide the pension not the company taking on the contract. Maybe you should spend a few months in the real world where these things happen _all_ the time. you don't outsource because it costs the same or more it's because, wait for it...it's CHEAPER. <----



I don't need to.

So you want to shorten the school day and lengthen the school year. I don't see what benefit that is to the students.

I can only assume that is linked to your idea of reducing teacher hours so you can outsource work to cheaper companies.

Well if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Plenty of work is outsourced to reduce costs and it doesn't mean the quality is retained. If you want your children taught by someone on minimum wage, go ahead, don't expect them to be dedicated to all their other issues or for them to provide extra curricular activities or be there when a child needs someone to talk to. Don't expect them to stay behind after school to give a child extra help when needed.

How about you educate any current or future children you have through an outsourcing company and compare the results with those educated the regular way and see how you get on. Could be an interesting social experiment if nothing else.


Also, don't make assumptions about me and what i know and don't know about the real world.

puffishoes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So you want to shorten the school day and lengthen the school year. I don't see what benefit that is to the students.

because currently our school day is pretty long from a fairly young age you spend a lot of the day in school. a shorter day will mean they have to focus and take in less information in a smaller time frame, which will mean better concentration levels etc. are you a teacher? these are bizzare questions. this all ready works really well in other countries, why are you so against it?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I can only assume that is linked to your idea of reducing teacher hours so you can outsource work to cheaper companies.

So you do get it.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Plenty of work is outsourced to reduce costs and it doesn't mean the quality is retained. If you want your children taught by someone on minimum wage, go ahead, don't expect them to be dedicated to all their other issues or for them to provide extra curricular activities or be there when a child needs someone to talk to. Don't expect them to stay behind after school to give a child extra help when needed.

that pay peanuts get monkeys thing is only spouted out generally by people being overpaid for their job. it's not true and it's pretty insulting to some lower paid workers.

who mentioned minimum wage? why would a teacher say on 35k instead of 60k be worse?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

How about you educate any current or future children you have through an outsourcing company and compare the results with those educated the regular way and see how you get on. Could be an interesting social experiment if nothing else.

Well I don't see many great shakes in the current school or in previous schools. So I'm not sure why you assume outsourcing would be bad? have you anything to back this up with?

are you suggesting all the temp staff currently on the books of the DOE are bad? hmm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Also, don't make assumptions about me and what i know and don't know about the real world.

and you don't do it to me.

We're getting somewhere.

seavill

Puffishoes,

I'm not fully sure are you just trolling due to the sharp nature of your responses but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not.

Firstly, I have taught it probably 15 schools including short term subbing and gone to another one myself and I have never seen a school where music is compulsory, possibly in some private schools but I have never encountered it (not saying it doesn't happen)

In a previous post you mentioned paying for 9 months instead of 12. Just to let you know the way teaching pay works currently that teachers are only paid for the hours they actually teach in class, for full time staff that is 22 hours for others can be anything from 2 - 22 hours. This pay is spread out over 12 months rather than just being paid within the 9 months, but we are only actually paid for 9 months work so your suggestion to do this is inaccurate.

I can see where you are coming from with you suggestions about doing some things outside of school time if you are interested, however there are some points to consider with this.
Firstly how are kids aged 12 coming into 1st year going to know what they are really interested in until they try it. The one good thing about our education system currently is the range of subjects that kids get to figure out over time what they like and what they don't like. For example take my subjects, woodwork and tech graphics, kids will never have done TG prior to experiencing it in secondary school.
Secondly, who is to say which things should stay and should go in terms of subjects provided within and outside of school time.
You feel that languages should be an outside activity, however all the research is currently saying that languages are essential to the economic growth of the country and to making people more employable in the future when we have no jobs here. Take the push on Chinese as this is now a huge market open to us.
You feel music should go, what about Design & Communication Graphics (leaving cert Tech graphics) why should that stay? What about kids doing science that don't like it, Construction studies, business etc. How do we decide which ones stay which ones go?

gaeilgebeo

puffishoes wrote: »

if you could format your post correctly i'll take the time to answer it.

Don't bother. I've read your "suggestions" in response to other posters.

(I think it's ironic that you comment on mine and another posters formatting.:rolleyes:. Posters still reply to your posts despite your spelling, grammar and punctuation!)

puffishoes

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Don't bother. I've read your "suggestions" in response to other posters.

(I think it's ironic that you comment on mine and another posters formatting.:rolleyes:. Posters still reply to your posts despite your spelling, grammar and punctuation!)

spelling grammar and punctuation I have no issue with, if you answer to me within my own quote i can't quote you and takes to long to respond.

puffishoes

seavill wrote: »

Puffishoes,

I'm not fully sure are you just trolling due to the sharp nature of your responses but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not.

Firstly, I have taught it probably 15 schools including short term subbing and gone to another one myself and I have never seen a school where music is compulsory, possibly in some private schools but I have never encountered it (not saying it doesn't happen)

I think i all ready stated I wasn't aware if it is currently, it most certainly was when I went to school. If it's not now then I apologize and lets move off the music subject it was my understanding.

seavill wrote: »

In a previous post you mentioned paying for 9 months instead of 12. Just to let you know the way teaching pay works currently that teachers are only paid for the hours they actually teach in class, for full time staff that is 22 hours for others can be anything from 2 - 22 hours. This pay is spread out over 12 months rather than just being paid within the 9 months, but we are only actually paid for 9 months work so your suggestion to do this is inaccurate.

I understand how it is now, I'm suggesting we change this. if we can't legally do it for current employed teachers then we do it going forward. No more 22 hour weeks. full 40 hour weeks 12 months of the year. if you only work 9 you get paid for 9 I thought this was very cleary, if not, I hope it is now.

seavill wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from with you suggestions about doing some things outside of school time if you are interested, however there are some points to consider with this.
Firstly how are kids aged 12 coming into 1st year going to know what they are really interested in until they try it.

they can try it in the summer if they wish or the parents wish.

seavill wrote: »

The one good thing about our education system currently is the range of subjects that kids get to figure out over time what they like and what they don't like.

this wouldn't change as the _option_ will always be available to _any_ student. during those summer months

seavill wrote: »

For example take my subjects, woodwork and tech graphics, kids will never have done TG prior to experiencing it in secondary school.

they still will continue to be able to do this as a choice. I never did TD as I didn't put it down as a high preference. so I never did it, in my situation above I could choose to try it out for the summer? making it even more accessbile than it is now, no?

seavill wrote: »

Secondly, who is to say which things should stay and should go in terms of subjects provided within and outside of school time.

Well we can say this about the current or future who is to say? who has the right to say it? are the DOE the right people? are the parents? are the teachers?

seavill wrote: »

You feel that languages should be an outside activity, however all the research is currently saying that languages are essential to the economic growth of the country and to making people more employable in the future when we have no jobs here. Take the push on Chinese as this is now a huge market open to us.

and languages will continue to be available, during those summer months? this seems to be a point you keep ignoring. we're not removing anything from anyone. it's just giving choice, naturally reducing numbers for no one with interest and helps with providing good classroom environments full of students who want to learn a specific subject, utopia for a teacher i would have thought?

seavill wrote: »

You feel music should go, what about Design & Communication Graphics (leaving cert Tech graphics) why should that stay? What about kids doing science that don't like it, Construction studies, business etc. How do we decide which ones stay which ones go?

I'm open to we don't decide and open the whole curricular each year to the students and let them decide and provide based on popularity or demand.

There's no one rule fits all in this case. it seems most teachers are open to change as long as that change doesn't affect their time off or their salary.

Which i find extremely odd considering the amount of teachers that claim they do this as a vocation and not for the financial side and the perks.

implausible

Puffishoes, I would be very interested to know about the school you went to, because it seems to be informing your views re: subject choice. You talk about not having disinterested students in subject classrooms. Of course, this is the ideal, to only have students who are interested in the subject learning it and with the exception of the core subjects, most of the time this happens. The only compulsory subjects in Irish secondary schools are English, Irish, Maths, CSPE(JC), SPHE (I'm not sure about Science - maybe one of my colleagues can tell me). Everything else is optional, depending on the school its facilities, ethos, teacher expertise and student interest. I don't know why you suggest that students do languages during the summer. In many schools, they can just opt not to do them!

As for saving money on teachers, your quoted figure of 60K is not representative, you'd have to be teaching 24 years full-time on a full contract to get that. You've also suggested getting cheaper teachers in, I'm afraid Ruairi Quinn and his predecessors in the last few years have beaten you to it. Have you any idea of what newly qualified teachers are starting on?

spurious

Let's keep it on topic folks.
Anyone who wants to troll, there is a willing audience, expert on all things, in AH.

seavill

puffishoes wrote: »

I think i all ready stated I wasn't aware if it is currently, it most certainly was when I went to school. If it's not now then I apologize and lets move off the music subject it was my understanding.




I understand how it is now, I'm suggesting we change this. if we can't legally do it for current employed teachers then we do it going forward. No more 22 hour weeks. full 40 hour weeks 12 months of the year. if you only work 9 you get paid for 9 I thought this was very cleary, if not, I hope it is now.



they can try it in the summer if they wish or the parents wish.


this wouldn't change as the _option_ will always be available to _any_ student. during those summer months



they still will continue to be able to do this as a choice. I never did TD as I didn't put it down as a high preference. so I never did it, in my situation above I could choose to try it out for the summer? making it even more accessbile than it is now, no?



Well we can say this about the current or future who is to say? who has the right to say it? are the DOE the right people? are the parents? are the teachers?



and languages will continue to be available, during those summer months? this seems to be a point you keep ignoring. we're not removing anything from anyone. it's just giving choice, naturally reducing numbers for no one with interest and helps with providing good classroom environments full of students who want to learn a specific subject, utopia for a teacher i would have thought?



I'm open to we don't decide and open the whole curricular each year to the students and let them decide and provide based on popularity or demand.

There's no one rule fits all in this case. it seems most teachers are open to change as long as that change doesn't affect their time off or their salary.

Which i find extremely odd considering the amount of teachers that claim they do this as a vocation and not for the financial side and the perks.

I was not ignoring anything I know you said try things over the summer but I must have just got confused.

From what I can gather you are suggesting that students have a subjet choice in which ones they want to do.

I am baffled as to where you are going with this, that is what currently happens in schools all over the country.
Take my school for example, students arrive in 1st year in September and a full range of subjects are sampled. At the end of term 1 they then decide which ones they want to do out of the choices
As somone mentioned there is a small list of compuslory subjets, English, Irish, Maths, CSPE, and in some schools Science is. After this the choice is open to the students.
Not every person can be catered for as clearly if you only have 3 children choosing woodwork for example out of a year of 90 students it is not viable to run this class, to teach 3 students for 3 years.

So am I wrong in what you are suggesting is the process that already currently happens? If you are suggesting something else, maybe its just me but I havn't a clue what you are on about apart from moving the taster programme term 1 to during the summer.

On the pay issue are you suggesting that it changes from 22 hours a week to 40 hours a week from 33 weeks a year to 48/50 weeks a year for the same pay, or we will get paid for the hours we work so basically doubling the cost to the tax payer.
I hate to break it to you but I kept track for 4 weeks the hours I spent correcting, planning, extra curricular etc etc. and it added up to an average of 35 hours a week. Now currently I am working 13 hours a week for free, as are thousands of my colleagues across the country (we won't get into I know a bad teacher who does nothing, I know a good teacher who does loads). I fail to see the logic of saving money and saving cuts on SNA's teachers etc. by paying me extra for the work I alreay do for free.

If I have completely misunderstood what you are saying I apologise, but thats all I can get.

And before you quote me again and refer to teachers moaning when something effects our pay or hours, I have never said any such thing so please don't associate me when referring to the above.

If you keep refering to this I will refer to my first statement that you are just trolling rather than taking part in a proper discussion

puffishoes

seavill wrote: »

I was not ignoring anything I know you said try things over the summer but I must have just got confused.

From what I can gather you are suggesting that students have a subjet choice in which ones they want to do.

I am baffled as to where you are going with this, that is what currently happens in schools all over the country.
Take my school for example, students arrive in 1st year in September and a full range of subjects are sampled. At the end of term 1 they then decide which ones they want to do out of the choices
As somone mentioned there is a small list of compuslory subjets, English, Irish, Maths, CSPE, and in some schools Science is. After this the choice is open to the students.
Not every person can be catered for as clearly if you only have 3 children choosing woodwork for example out of a year of 90 students it is not viable to run this class, to teach 3 students for 3 years.

So am I wrong in what you are suggesting is the process that already currently happens? If you are suggesting something else, maybe its just me but I havn't a clue what you are on about apart from moving the taster programme term 1 to during the summer.

On the pay issue are you suggesting that it changes from 22 hours a week to 40 hours a week from 33 weeks a year to 48/50 weeks a year for the same pay, or we will get paid for the hours we work so basically doubling the cost to the tax payer.
I hate to break it to you but I kept track for 4 weeks the hours I spent correcting, planning, extra curricular etc etc. and it added up to an average of 35 hours a week. Now currently I am working 13 hours a week for free, as are thousands of my colleagues across the country (we won't get into I know a bad teacher who does nothing, I know a good teacher who does loads). I fail to see the logic of saving money and saving cuts on SNA's teachers etc. by paying me extra for the work I alreay do for free.

If I have completely misunderstood what you are saying I apologise, but thats all I can get.

And before you quote me again and refer to teachers moaning when something effects our pay or hours, I have never said any such thing so please don't associate me when referring to the above.

If you keep refering to this I will refer to my first statement that you are just trolling rather than taking part in a proper discussion

so basically if i mention pay or hours, I'm a troll, on a topic about cuts.

Interesting ultimatum, I'll bow out now then.