What have the cuts meant to your school?

seavill

puffishoes wrote: »

so basically if i mention pay or hours, I'm a troll, on a topic about cuts.

Interesting ultimatum, I'll bow out now then.

No not necessarily its just I never once complained anything about working extra or anthing like that but yet you accuse me of moaning about it all the same.

Discussing it and throwing the same old AH argument back at me are too different things. Plus the way you are responding to people seems that you are only doing it to get a response which you have managed quite a few times so far

Have you any resonpse to my questions above.

We have already gone completely off topic as far as I am concerned considering the original post but its still an interesting discussion once it stays that way without resorting to AH crap

doc_17

AsIDE from teaching hours and subject cuts, the capitation per student cuts that have come in this past few years are having a problem as well from the financial side of things. We've had massive reductions in our photocopying allocations, money to spend on T&L resources and even the school heating bill has to come down! Place is like a fridge some days!

bdoo

[Quote=puffishoes;79263

They can prepare kids who are interested in it during the summer months if they wish or if the parents wish.


Not at all, but it should be a parents choice to what their kids are taught about religion. again if they wish to pursue more knowledge in it they can. or if the parents wish it they can. but it _should_ be optional

I have no problem with the option of music OPTION.


I seem to understand and know a lot more about it than most teachers it would seem.[/Quote]


So in reality you are saying the following;

that you are jealous of teachers holidays. and that parents should decide to send kids to school over the summer.
Fyi many parents dont care enough to send kids during the school Year!

And that the notion of their being some sort of a benefit to a broad religious education is wrong. Parents should pass on whatever religious views they have with no reference to any other religion?

you must have a problem with music as you have said numerous times that it should be done away with. making it an option as you suggest makes it elitist.

In your head you understand More.

If you're going to try to stir it up will you at least do some research and give some facts.

Maybe trolling should be an option in school? We could do it over the summer. i might have some free time.

bdoo

I went around the school today taking printers out of classrooms. One printer in the office from nectar year with kids paying per page after a certain free allocation.

Winter is long and cold in our place with the heating rarely on for more than an hour a day.

I always did it anyway but in my subjects we are reusing everything. sticking as many questions as we can on drawing sheets. dismantling old woodwork projects to make new ones. At least its making us note our carbon footprint :-)

Miss Lockhart

I don't think our school ever reaches the "acceptable temperature" during the winter. But it's always been like that even before these cuts.

ntlbell

bdoo wrote: »

So in reality you are saying the following;

that you are jealous of teachers holidays. and that parents should decide to send kids to school over the summer.
Fyi many parents dont care enough to send kids during the school Year!

And that the notion of their being some sort of a benefit to a broad religious education is wrong. Parents should pass on whatever religious views they have with no reference to any other religion?

you must have a problem with music as you have said numerous times that it should be done away with. making it an option as you suggest makes it elitist.

In your head you understand More.

If you're going to try to stir it up will you at least do some research and give some facts.

Maybe trolling should be an option in school? We could do it over the summer. i might have some free time.

It seems anyone who comes into this forum and has an opinon that doesn't fit with the teachers is a troll, yet it's the teachers that seem to keep trying to twist what is being said.

So basically if a poster is not a teacher and doesn't agree with them.

they're jealous of their holidays.

jealous of their wages.

hate music, languages and religion. I guess also any other subject that's given as an option and if you bring up wages or time off you're a troll.

But lets all try and protect our wages and time off and hoff at anyone that doesn't agree as a troll.

please.

bdoo

ntlbell wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

So in reality you are saying the following;

that you are jealous of teachers holidays. and that parents should decide to send kids to school over the summer.
Fyi many parents dont care enough to send kids during the school Year!

And that the notion of their being some sort of a benefit to a broad religious education is wrong. Parents should pass on whatever religious views they have with no reference to any other religion?

you must have a problem with music as you have said numerous times that it should be done away with. making it an option as you suggest makes it elitist.

In your head you understand More.

If you're going to try to stir it up will you at least do some research and give some facts.

Maybe trolling should be an option in school? We could do it over the summer. i might have some free time.

It seems anyone who comes into this forum and has an opinon that doesn't fit with the teachers is a troll, yet it's the teachers that seem to keep trying to twist what is being said.

So basically if a poster is not a teacher and doesn't agree with them.

they're jealous of their holidays.

jealous of their wages.

hate music, languages and religion. I guess also any other subject that's given as an option and if you bring up wages or time off you're a troll.

But lets all try and protect our wages and time off and hoff at anyone that doesn't agree as a troll.

please.

Poster could not support a single point made. Im all up for discussing these matters and often do in afterhours.

I started this thread to get a feeling from other teachers as to what was happening in their schools.

I hoped also to maybe get an insight into some solutions they were familiar with.

all we got from punishes was cut teacher holidays and do away with music and languages.

realistically this cannot be done. it is unreasonable to expect kids to take up languages and other subjects outside of school when schools can provide them adequately.

I acknowledge that there is waste in the public sector, i acknowledge that there are some employees who are not as 'effective' as others these issues can be discussed no problem with me.

derailing a thread without any logical arguments is tolling imo. throwing out figures for salaries is inflammatory and does nothing to help the argument.

it is possible of course that my reply was a bit terse, but i gave reasons for every counter argument i made. the other poster made no effort to support any points other that that they would make teachers work harder for less.

entitled to their opinion but i think they could say it once and get over it unless the thread is about that topic.

Chilli Con Kearney

ntlbell wrote: »

It seems anyone who comes into this forum and has an opinon that doesn't fit with the teachers is a troll, yet it's the teachers that seem to keep trying to twist what is being said.

So basically if a poster is not a teacher and doesn't agree with them.

they're jealous of their holidays.

jealous of their wages.

hate music, languages and religion. I guess also any other subject that's given as an option and if you bring up wages or time off you're a troll.

But lets all try and protect our wages and time off and hoff at anyone that doesn't agree as a troll.

please.

This guy ntbell cracks me up. I enjoyed your rants over the previous months. Another "I've been to school so I know exactly how to run one" merchant.

Tell me, what do you work as? Maybe I have experienced or spoken to a person from that profession once in my life so I can tell you how to do your job better.

Pay cuts, hours, etc. are certainly issues which should be discussed. But you really need to know what you are talking about. You, it appears THINK you know what is going on.

The reality is that people THINK they know what a job is all about. They THINK they know how to improve it from their superficial knowledge. They THINK that other people's jobs are easier. They THINK that others get an easier ride.

To be frank, you do not know what you are talking about. In fact you don't have a clue.

There are serious issues in Irish education and I can hardly believe the things I see and hear myself, but you DO NOT know how to fix it, even though you THINK you do. Please stop spouting on like it's as easy as you make it out to be.

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

But lets all try and protect our wages and time off and hoff at anyone that doesn't agree as a troll.

Why not? Best of luck to you. That's the way economic side of society has operated since time immemorial - employees try to do the best they can for themselves when it comes to wages/conditions, in the same way that employers try to do the best they can for themselves when it comes to wages/conditions. The eventual reality tends to fall somewhere in the middle, all other things being equal. It's the same economic principle which governs the relationship between buyer and seller for most goods in most circumstances. That it is a tacit relationship makes it no less of a relationship as any good contract lawyer would argue.

If enough people are stupid/altruistic enough not to try and protect their wages and time off then we will have to reassess the very basics of how economic theory is formulated, as it is wholly based on the assumption that in any given economic transaction each protagonist will try to do the best for themselves. Why expect teachers to be any different?

Perhaps that's where the 'troll' accusation comes from. Here's an experiment - try going into your local corner shop and have a go at the person working there for demanding wages which are too high and are consequently forcing you to pay too much for the products in the shop. I'd say you'd be lucky to be called a troll.

Your utterly bizarre views regarding the troll accusation on this particular forum inevitably call to mind the old Basil Fawlty line - "What exactly did you expect to see from a Torquay hotel bedroom window?.....Sydney Opera House perhaps...The hanging Gardens of Babylon..."

What reponse do you expect the forum of any group whose pay and conditions you are attacking - especially one upon which a new troll appears to be unleashed at least every full moon? It's like there's a secret little factory for them at the end of the garden - and when they are agitated enough they are released for their fifteen minutes of fame. Maybe you should try the politics forum - there are professionally and permanently angry people there who hate everything. You'd have to eat someone's liver to be called a troll over there.

seavill

Powerhouse wrote: »

Why not? Best of luck to you. That's the way economic side of society has operated since time immemorial - employees try to do the best they can for themselves when it comes to wages/conditions, in the same way that employers try to do the best they can for themselves when it comes to wages/conditions. The eventual reality tends to fall somewhere in the middle, all other things being equal. It's the same economic principle which governs the relationship between buyer and seller for most goods in most circumstances. That it is a tacit relationship makes it no less of a relationship as any good contract lawyer would argue.

If enough people are stupid/altruistic enough not to try and protect their wages and time off then we will have to reassess the very basics of how economic theory is formulated, as it is wholly based on the assumption that in any given economic transaction each protagonist will try to do the best for themselves. Why expect teachers to be any different?

Ehhhhhh....... what they said

J_E

puffishoes wrote: »

Well music is a fairly "specialist" subject and for IMHO unless you have a pressing interest in it the resources could be used towards something more useful. Religion should be taught in the home not at school. Religion has no place in the education system imo the same way it has no place in the work place.

Surely music is just as 'specialist' as the technology umbrella of subjects, business, home ec, etc? Not sure what you're saying here, what subjects would you find more useful? As for religion, I personally believe most texts are still far too focused on Catholicism but it is one of the only subjects that explores issues such as morality/ethics, and until the Leaving Cert gains subjects such as Psychology or Philosophy, I think it has its own niche in the scheme of things. Personally though, although I place value on having an awareness of world religions, I'd see it a little more practical to have a subject such as psychology in the place of religion, as is the case overseas. Never experienced as an exam subject though so my view may be different than to others.

puffishoes

bdoo wrote: »

Poster could not support a single point made. Im all up for discussing these matters and often do in afterhours.

I started this thread to get a feeling from other teachers as to what was happening in their schools.

I hoped also to maybe get an insight into some solutions they were familiar with.

why does it matter who provides ideas and talking points? why do they have to be teachers or members of the DOE?

bdoo wrote: »

all we got from punishes was cut teacher holidays and do away with music and languages.

realistically this cannot be done. it is unreasonable to expect kids to take up languages and other subjects outside of school when schools can provide them adequately.

Looks like you didn't read my post I didn't say anything about cutting subjects, I said a lot about choice of subject maybe go over them again?

I don't think so, I attended computer courses held in school during periods of the summer month as it was something *I* wanted to do why should every other student be put through something and why should other students have to tolerate them when they dont want to be there?

bdoo wrote: »

I acknowledge that there is waste in the public sector, i acknowledge that there are some employees who are not as 'effective' as others these issues can be discussed no problem with me.

I know my job unfortunately puts me in contact with a large about of them.

bdoo wrote: »

derailing a thread without any logical arguments is tolling imo. throwing out figures for salaries is inflammatory and does nothing to help the argument.

it is possible of course that my reply was a bit terse, but i gave reasons for every counter argument i made. the other poster made no effort to support any points other that that they would make teachers work harder for less.

entitled to their opinion but i think they could say it once and get over it unless the thread is about that topic.

I made no attempt to derail the thread i made my points as clearly as I could based on the knoweldge I had I accepted where I was wrong or was corrected.

I don't have all the answers I'm not an expert on education, I don't think I know your or any teachers jobs. but I don't see why I need to when the issue with wages and holidays is a such a big one why I can't have an opinion on it?

There was no deliberate intention to derail or troll. I'm a little bit long in the tooth to be trolling Internet forums to be quiet honest with you.

ntlbell

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

This guy ntbell cracks me up. I enjoyed your rants over the previous months. Another "I've been to school so I know exactly how to run one" merchant.

No, I just know when johnny has 4 apples, he's going to school one day without one. you don't need to be an expert, especially when the "issue" is a very easy one to solve and has _nothing_ to do with the job itself. not one thing.

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Tell me, what do you work as? Maybe I have experienced or spoken to a person from that profession once in my life so I can tell you how to do your job better.
[/quote

I'm a bit tired of being asked this, why has it any relevance, there are many people better than i at my job and would always welcome advice from anyone be it the security guard at the door or the CEO.

I'm a highly over paid professional. That's all you need to know. You would know nothing of my job and it's very unlikely you met someone else who does it as there's very few of us in Ireland. but don't let that spoil an opportunity to have a go at me.

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Pay cuts, hours, etc. are certainly issues which should be discussed. But you really need to know what you are talking about. You, it appears THINK you know what is going on.

Maybe you can explain then? educate me. What else do I need to know to decide if a teacher's wages which was bench marked against private sector wages that i require to have a valid opinion on this?

Do i need to become a teacher?

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

The reality is that people THINK they know what a job is all about. They THINK they know how to improve it from their superficial knowledge. They THINK that other people's jobs are easier. They THINK that others get an easier ride.

I don't care how difficult the job is or what holidays you get. take 25k basic with no automatic increases and you can pretty much do whatever the hell you like.

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

To be frank, you do not know what you are talking about. In fact you don't have a clue.

fine, educate me.

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

There are serious issues in Irish education and I can hardly believe the things I see and hear myself, but you DO NOT know how to fix it, even though you THINK you do. Please stop spouting on like it's as easy as you make it out to be.

I dont want to fix what's going on i don't really care what's going on, I want the high wages and pension's to be stopped after that a teacher can sit in a chair with their feet up on the desk for 22 hours for all i care.

Powerhouse

puffishoes wrote: »

why does it matter who provides ideas and talking points? why do they have to be teachers or members of the DOE?

You have answered this question of yours yourself in your following post when you wrote: "I dont want to fix what's going on i don't really care what's going on, I want the high wages and pension's to be stopped after that a teacher can sit in a chair with their feet up on the desk for 22 hours for all i care."

If you get teachers providing ideas and talking points they will (a) be familiar with the issues on a practical level e.g. the significance of the pupil-teacher ratio will not be lost on them as it is on most non-teachers, and (b) have a genuine interest in solving the issues.

As you have stated yourself you have no interest in fixing anything or even increasing productivity. You just want to 'get the b*stards'. That creates credibility issues for you when you start advising all and sundry how things should be. That's why it matters who provides ideas and talking points.

puffishoes

Powerhouse wrote: »

You have answered this question of yours yourself in your following post when you wrote: "I dont want to fix what's going on i don't really care what's going on, I want the high wages and pension's to be stopped after that a teacher can sit in a chair with their feet up on the desk for 22 hours for all i care."

I think your mixing me up with someone else maybe a re-read of the thread is required.

Powerhouse wrote: »

If you get teachers providing ideas and talking points they will (a) be familiar with the issues on a practical level e.g. the significance of the pupil-teacher ratio will not be lost on them as it is on most non-teachers, and (b) have a genuine interest in solving the issues.

the problem is currently money, hence the cuts. so how can we cut and keep staffing levels etc etc the same without touching salaries? so you can have all the insight you like into teacher/student relations. it won't generate money we don't have so like any other buisness we have to cut our cloth, this INCLUDES reducing wages it's not the _only_ point but it's one of the biggest issues and one teachers do not not want to entertain.

Powerhouse wrote: »

As you have stated yourself you have no interest in fixing anything or even increasing productivity. You just want to 'get the b*stards'. That creates credibility issues for you when you start advising all and sundry how things should be. That's why it matters who provides ideas and talking points.

I don't think any of my posts suggested this.

Powerhouse

puffishoes wrote: »

I think your mixing me up with someone else

I did. My apologies.

Powerhouse

puffishoes wrote: »

you can have all the insight you like into teacher/student relations. it won't generate money

In fairness, I don't think anyone suggested it did generate money. But there are other issues in schools aside from what people are being paid and they will inevitably be discussed on such a forum as this.

puffishoes

Powerhouse wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think anyone suggested it did generate money. But there are other issues in schools aside from what people are being paid and they will inevitably be discussed on such a forum as this.

I understand that their is issues but the OP wanted to hear about what the cuts meant.

I understand the thread has now been sidetracked but what measures can be taken to avoid these cuts is worth discussing.

The problem is a big part of this would have to include a reduction in wages and an increase in hours which it seems from most here this is off the cards from the off. Once you remove this there's no where really to go.

Sure you can put polly on a few holes but won't put back the SNA's etc etc the only thing that will do that is an increase in the budget or a better use of the current one, either way you look at it boils down to money and ideas.

currently no one wants to discuss the money and no one with any creative ideas so we march on with the status quo.

Powerhouse

puffishoes wrote: »

The problem is a big part of this would have to include a reduction in wages and an increase in hours

There have been significant wage reductions over the last few years and it has not resulted in maintaining teacher numbers. If teacher wages are cut, they'll be cut without no magical increase in numbers to compensate. The idea is for the government to save money - not to divvy the same money differently.

It's a nice socialist ideal and is quite popular at the moment as a no-brainer mathemathical equation to imply that wage cuts will somehow lead to increased numbers of teachers. But if that was to happen it would mean zero net saving for the exchequer. So it's not going to happen, so it's a theoretical discussion. Teacher are right to be reticient on the matter as they'll get no thanks either way.

Incidentally hours have also been increased - laughably and absurdly - and has led to zero net saving too. Ruairí Quinn looks a bit macho for a while and the begrudgers get a bit of arousal from it but that's about it. Financially it's meaningless - utterly cost-neutral - and in my experience has served only to disrupt other after-school activities and p*ss people off, which in a work environment which is going to rely more and more on goodwill in the future is not the cleverest idea.

seavill

puffishoes wrote: »

currently no one wants to discuss the money and no one with any creative ideas so we march on with the status quo.

Ok I will go back to how you originally came into this conversation. You went on for numerous posts about summer projects etc. I posted 2 questions to you which you either ignored or forgot to answer so doing what you ask I will bring it back to you creative ideas and repost what I asked yesterday


From what I can gather you are suggesting that students have a subjet choice in which ones they want to do.

I am baffled as to where you are going with this, that is what currently happens in schools all over the country.
Take my school for example, students arrive in 1st year in September and a full range of subjects are sampled. At the end of term 1 they then decide which ones they want to do out of the choices
As somone mentioned there is a small list of compuslory subjets, English, Irish, Maths, CSPE, and in some schools Science is. After this the choice is open to the students.
Not every person can be catered for as clearly if you only have 3 children choosing woodwork for example out of a year of 90 students it is not viable to run this class, to teach 3 students for 3 years.

So am I wrong in what you are suggesting is the process that already currently happens? If you are suggesting something else, maybe its just me but I havn't a clue what you are on about apart from moving the taster programme term 1 to during the summer.

On the pay issue are you suggesting that it changes from 22 hours a week to 40 hours a week from 33 weeks a year to 48/50 weeks a year for the same pay, or we will get paid for the hours we work so basically doubling the cost to the tax payer.
I hate to break it to you but I kept track for 4 weeks the hours I spent correcting, planning, extra curricular etc etc. and it added up to an average of 35 hours a week. Now currently I am working 13 hours a week for free, as are thousands of my colleagues across the country (we won't get into I know a bad teacher who does nothing, I know a good teacher who does loads). I fail to see the logic of saving money and saving cuts on SNA's teachers etc. by paying me extra for the work I alreay do for free.

If I have completely misunderstood what you are saying I apologise, but thats all I can get.

Chilli Con Kearney

I'm a bit tired of being asked this, why has it any relevance, there are many people better than i at my job and would always welcome advice from anyone be it the security guard at the door or the CEO.

I'm a highly over paid professional. That's all you need to know. You would know nothing of my job and it's very unlikely you met someone else who does it as there's very few of us in Ireland. but don't let that spoil an opportunity to have a go at me.

A highly over paid professional? Wow. And here you are telling others that their pay and pension benefits are too high and should be cut. Wow. Now, if I'm not mistaken, that's a tad rich. In fact I'm not too sure who you think you are actually. I'd go as far as to say that you have no authority, position or right to be making those remarks. I'd even say that your credibility in making such remarks (if it ever existed) has no been decimated with your over paid admission. In this event, I am going to suggest that you offer to take a pay cut and this portion of your salary could be used to hire another person.

Maybe you can explain then? educate me. What else do I need to know to decide if a teacher's wages which was bench marked against private sector wages that i require to have a valid opinion on this?

Do i need to become a teacher?

I have only been teaching a few years so do not know much about the benchmarking topic I must admit. I did however work in the private sector for several years and can assure you that those whom I worked with, as well as my mates who are private sector workers, are all doing very well compared to my salary. This myth of pay cuts in the private sector cannot be substantiated and the reality if you look and ask, is that many have received no pay cuts.

I can tell you that my pay is down around 15% from when I started a few years ago. I can also tell you that I am on less hours than a few years ago so I would be far better off in the private sector. I'm not giving you a sob story, I'm just saying how it is. I don't go around moaning about it. I just get on with my job. I'm not so sure that the much vaunted benchmarking would bring salaries down significantly. You would after all, be pegging against private sector salaries which, from my research, have not dropped more than my 15%.

I don't care how difficult the job is or what holidays you get. take 25k basic with no automatic increases and you can pretty much do whatever the hell you like.



fine, educate me.



I dont want to fix what's going on i don't really care what's going on, I want the high wages and pension's to be stopped after that a teacher can sit in a chair with their feet up on the desk for 22 hours for all i care.[/QUOTE]

You can continue your patriotic duties by foregoing some of your over paid salary. Failing that you can jog on as far as I am concerned.

You have no credibility in making such demands of other workers, regardless of what industry they work in or whom their paymasters are. No doubt you will though.

The CEOs of security firms forum is somewhere on this site. You can tell them to take pay cuts with as much sincerity and credibility too.

ntlbell

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

You can continue your patriotic duties by foregoing some of your over paid salary. Failing that you can jog on as far as I am concerned.

You have no credibility in making such demands of other workers, regardless of what industry they work in or whom their paymasters are. No doubt you will though.

The CEOs of security firms forum is somewhere on this site. You can tell them to take pay cuts with as much sincerity and credibility too.

I'm all ready paying teachers salary's, why would I forgo my salary?

I'm not demanding you take a pay cut, the cuts will be made of that there's no doubt.

I have no idea what security firms have to do with overpaid teachers?

bdoo

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm all ready paying teachers salary's, why would I forgo my salary?

I'm not demanding you take a pay cut, the cuts will be made of that there's no doubt.

I have no idea what security firms have to do with overpaid teachers?

You do not personally pay teacher's salary - you pay tax get over it, everyone does.

You are the definition of a troll. No contribution just stirring things up. You have confirmed this yourself

'I don't care how difficult the job is or what holidays you get. take 25k basic with no automatic increases and you can pretty much do whatever the hell you like.'

Your agenda is cutting teachers pay - you do not care about the education system,

seavill

Half of this thread has got nothing to do with question asked. Seriously I think we just ignore any irrelevant posts (I think we all know what I'm talking about here) as mods don't seem to think it has gone off topic and only respond to relevant posts. it's getting ridiculous by now

Chilli Con Kearney

I think bdoo has hit the nail on the head here.

You are just interested in pushing an agenda of cutting pay. At this time its teachers pay. But it could he anybodys pay.

Perhaps you need to reflect on why you are so focussed on others and their performance, as opposed to yourself. It says a lot about you to be honest.

Moving back to the actual topic and thread...

I've heard of some schools now doing after school classes. Like doing a 4 period subject, with two inside the timetable and two after school.

doc_17

With the roll out of 100mbs broadband I was talking to a man from H2 yesterday and he says that they are setting schools up to deliver classes like Physics, Hons Maths, Chemistry etc via the Internet using webcam and VoIP. So say two schools in a nearby area would have a room with a teacher in it and say 10 miles away there would be a projection of that teacher delivering the lesson.

Is anyone here doing this? Also how wold lab work be competed?


I'm not too sure how that would go in terms of supervision etc should something go wrong.

puffishoes

doc_17 wrote: »

With the roll out of 100mbs broadband I was talking to a man from H2 yesterday and he says that they are setting schools up to deliver classes like Physics, Hons Maths, Chemistry etc via the Internet using webcam and VoIP. So say two schools in a nearby area would have a room with a teacher in it and say 10 miles away there would be a projection of that teacher delivering the lesson.

Is anyone here doing this? Also how wold lab work be competed?


I'm not too sure how that would go in terms of supervision etc should something go wrong.

It's funny that this was demo'd 12 years ago by Mr.Gates and we're only looking into it now.

All the video clips of kids been walked from one building to another over a public road when we have this technology.

amazing.

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

It's funny that this was demo'd 12 years ago by Mr.Gates and we're only looking into it now.

I suppose that's the lag between America and Ireland. Why is your company looking into it now? Have they had a chance to use it in a trial run by any chance? It would be great to use if it was feasible

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

I suppose that's the lag between America and Ireland. Why is your company looking into it now? Have they had a chance to use it in a trial run by any chance? It would be great to use if it was feasible

I mean "we're" as in _ireland_ and the public sector there's no lag in technology. They didn't ship Windows XP for example to the US and give it to ireland 12 years later.
This technology has been used in the private sector for the last 10 years to cut costs.

I don't know enough about IT in the public sector to know who's fault it is. But it's another example of where lack of innovation in this sector costs us a fortune and we end up having to cut all the wrong corners. e.g. SNA's etc from our laxy dazy approach to innovation and creative thinking.

Feeona

doc_17 wrote: »

With the roll out of 100mbs broadband I was talking to a man from H2 yesterday and he says that they are setting schools up to deliver classes like Physics, Hons Maths, Chemistry etc via the Internet using webcam and VoIP. So say two schools in a nearby area would have a room with a teacher in it and say 10 miles away there would be a projection of that teacher delivering the lesson.

Is anyone here doing this? Also how wold lab work be competed?


I'm not too sure how that would go in terms of supervision etc should something go wrong.

puffishoes wrote: »

This technology has been used in the private sector for the last 10 years to cut costs.

Great to hear! But you were replying to doc17's post in which he'd asked a question about other people's experiences, and whether it would work in a school or not. What advice would you give?

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

Great to hear! But you were replying to doc17's post in which he'd asked a question about other people's experiences, and whether it would work in a school or not. What advice would you give?

Here's an image of what a meeting over halo conferencing looks like so you can really feel like your all in the same room.

I'm not sure what he means by supervision, you can clearly see the person on the other side and what they're doing. so bar having a "send electric shock to chair" feature i'm not sure what's referring to? you advise the student to stop picking thier nose or whatever it is they do.

Labs I'm not sure, I guess the teacher demo's the lab. and you have a "lab day" some time during the year where the students can go to a central location to carry out the labs. it's not a show stopper just requires some organizaion and taught.

doc_17

I can honesty say that I dont really want to hear certain other people's "responses".

I'm just wondering have any educators used it and how have they found it?

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

Here's an image of what a meeting over halo conferencing looks like so you can really feel like your all in the same room.

I'm not sure what he means by supervision, you can clearly see the person on the other side and what they're doing. so bar having a "send electric shock to chair" feature i'm not sure what's referring to? you advise the student to stop picking thier nose or whatever it is they do.

Labs I'm not sure, I guess the teacher demo's the lab. and you have a "lab day" some time during the year where the students can go to a central location to carry out the labs. it's not a show stopper just requires some organizaion and taught.

I'm sure you can ask doc17 about what he meant by supervision. Great to see an example of what you do in your company.

puffishoes

doc_17 wrote: »

I can honesty say that I dont really want to hear certain other people's "responses".

I think it's obvious you teach fairly young kids.

Lets try and have a grown up adult discussion without the pettiness

I'm not talking to you anymore nah nah nah nah

please

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

I think it's obvious you teach fairly young kids.

Lets try and have a grown up adult discussion without the pettiness

I'm not talking to you anymore nah nah nah nah

please

I don't think doc17 was talking about you to be fair. Why would you think that

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

I don't think doc17 was talking about you to be fair. Why would you think that

because you quoted me and him together and then he stated he didn't want to hear certain people's responses. it was pretty clear.

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

because you quoted me and him together and then he stated he didn't want to hear certain people's responses. it was pretty clear.

oh ok. Maybe you should take it to PM, because otherwise the thread will go off topic


EDIT : Has anyone else experienced VoIP in their schools? Any benefits/drawbacks?

rainbowtrout

oh FFS, can you stop bickering, we had a thread about this a few months back, about how the T&L forum could be changed and improved, lots of suggestions were made and NOTHING has changed. Shit sick of it.

puffishoes - implementing this kind of technology in schools is not difficult but schools don't have the necessary equipment. Comparing it with Windows XP is not a like for like comparison.

My school has a data projector in every room in the school - but we only got them 3 years ago. We have 1 interactive white board. I've been in plenty of schools around the country and there are many that have classrooms that haven't changed much in the last 50 years. All schools will have to have that equipment before those kind of classes could take place.

It doesn't matter if my school has the equipment and can offer honours maths through this medium, if the school 15 miles down the road doesn't even have a data projector in the classroom.

As for the rest of it - students have to be supervised at all times so even if all of this equipment was in place in all schools and I was giving a chemistry class (theory not practical) someone would have to be present in the room in the other school where the chemistry students are participating for health and safety reasons. So there would be no saving in that respect. In terms of practical work, again taking chemistry, there are 30 mandatory experiments on the LC course many of which take a full double class so to complete them over 2 years you are looking at doing at least 1 every fortnight. That's a lot of collaboration between schools, not as simple as meeting up 3 or 4 times a year.

It's easy for a group of adults to engage in video conferencing. Students are minors and have to be supervised. Even things like correcting homework, checking copies, giving tests raise issues.

puffishoes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

puffishoes - implementing this kind of technology in schools is not difficult but schools don't have the necessary equipment. Comparing it with Windows XP is not a like for like comparison.

The point was this technology was being demo'd and sold as a feature of windows XP. not voip specific but the gpo etc technology of XP for teachers to control desktops locking apps etc. these features were been sold into schools 12 years ago.

Obviously they don't have the nescearry equipment, that's the complaint here, that is someone's fault.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My school has a data projector in every room in the school - but we only got them 3 years ago. We have 1 interactive white board. I've been in plenty of schools around the country and there are many that have classrooms that haven't changed much in the last 50 years. All schools will have to have that equipment before those kind of classes could take place.

Implementing this type of technology removed the need for exspensive white boards and what not. everything would be software based.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It doesn't matter if my school has the equipment and can offer honours maths through this medium, if the school 15 miles down the road doesn't even have a data projector in the classroom.

Well this gets back to budget problems I would assume?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

As for the rest of it - students have to be supervised at all times so even if all of this equipment was in place in all schools and I was giving a chemistry class (theory not practical) someone would have to be present in the room in the other school where the chemistry students are participating for health and safety reasons. So there would be no saving in that respect. In terms of practical work, again taking chemistry, there are 30 mandatory experiments on the LC course many of which take a full double class so to complete them over 2 years you are looking at doing at least 1 every fortnight. That's a lot of collaboration between schools, not as simple as meeting up 3 or 4 times a year.

for me the idea would be to reduce staff and physical schools etc etc. there's no point bringing in all this technology if not to cut costs.

For example. we had a few thousand people travelling around the globe 24/7 365. this is a lot of hotel and flight costs. for the most part we don't spend money on this.

so you have the pupil's logging in from home or a central hub.

you get rid of for the most part the physical school. reducing the amount of schools required/teachers etc etc

I'm sorry but it's time to move education in this country out of the dark ages.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's easy for a group of adults to engage in video conferencing. Students are minors and have to be supervised. Even things like correcting homework, checking copies, giving tests raise issues.

we can all find 1001 excuses why this won't work and don't work. We need to address the how it can work, how it can save money how every student can get the attention they require. not all sitting around going "but..but but but"

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

The point was this technology was being demo'd and sold as a feature of windows XP. not voip specific but the gpo etc technology of XP for teachers to control desktops locking apps etc. these features were been sold into schools 12 years ago.

How was that helpful to doc17's query though?

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

How was that helpful to doc17's query though?

i dont really know what your talking about.

what has doc got to do with where the conversation is now?

it was just a point i made in the reply. stating how far we're behind as he stated they're looking at it now. maybe he didn't know it was around 12 years ago? if i was a teacher i'd be bloody shocked...

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

i dont really know what your talking about.

The original query was about VoIP/conferencing in class, and you responded by saying that it's a technology that's been around for 12 years. How does that help the original query?

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

The original query was about VoIP/conferencing in class, and you responded by saying that it's a technology that's been around for 12 years. How does that help the original query?

i was showing how far behind the decision makers on these things are.

as it was being OFFERED into the schools 12 years ago.

i'm not replying again on this i can't make it any clearer.

can we move on?

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

i was showing how far behind the decision makers on these things are.

as it was being OFFERED into the schools 12 years ago.

That doesn't sound like you're here to help though, just out to make trouble!

But you're right, we should move on.

puffishoes

Leaving cert day 2013

Maths paper XYZ.

Dublin hub.

students sit at PC.

random pool of math's questions from the database.

student interacts with the software to take exam.

result is automatically calculated at the end and result sent to a DB.

This one tiny aspect of moving to software.

We save on.

the paper used to print the exams. the teachers time or whom ever corrects it. Results in an instant can be linked with CSO for auomtic submission for college places etc reduced administration. no "security" issues with papers been leaked.

Almost feels like a german.

This is the sort of creativity required to have a slim well run cheap but par excelence education system.

puffishoes

Feeona wrote: »

That doesn't sound like you're here to help though, just out to make trouble!

But you're right, we should move on.

well at least you didn't call me a troll. some progress.

chippers

puffishoes wrote: »

Leaving cert day 2013

Maths paper XYZ.

Dublin hub.

students sit at PC.

random pool of math's questions from the database.

student interacts with the software to take exam.

result is automatically calculated at the end and result sent to a DB.

This one tiny aspect of moving to software.

We save on.

the paper used to print the exams. the teachers time or whom ever corrects it. Results in an instant can be linked with CSO for auomtic submission for college places etc reduced administration. no "security" issues with papers been leaked.

Almost feels like a german.

This is the sort of creativity required to have a slim well run cheap but par excelence education system.

This sounds like the attempted move (with massive associated cost) towards electronic voting. We all know how unsuccessful that was and the cost it placed on the exchequer.

Feeona

puffishoes wrote: »

well at least you didn't call me a troll. some progress.

Some moving on there I see

puffishoes

chippers wrote: »

This sounds like the attempted move (with massive associated cost) towards electronic voting. We all know how unsuccessful that was and the cost it placed on the exchequer.

nonsense, this type of implementation are in test center's all around the country and work perfectly fine.

it's a bit like suggesting anything digital = bad because of another

i assume you use ros.ie ? mortortax online etc?

therunaround

puffishoes wrote: »

Leaving cert day 2013

Maths paper XYZ.

Dublin hub.

students sit at PC.

random pool of math's questions from the database.

student interacts with the software to take exam.

result is automatically calculated at the end and result sent to a DB.

This one tiny aspect of moving to software.

We save on.

the paper used to print the exams. the teachers time or whom ever corrects it. Results in an instant can be linked with CSO for auomtic submission for college places etc reduced administration. no "security" issues with papers been leaked.

Almost feels like a german.

This is the sort of creativity required to have a slim well run cheap but par excelence education system.

One question.
My school has approximately 250 leaving cert and junior certs sitting a paper at one time.

We have 24 computers.

What should we do?