What have the cuts meant to your school?

chippers

puffishoes wrote: »

nonsense, this type of implementation are in test center's all around the country and work perfectly fine.

it's a bit like suggesting anything digital = bad because of another

i assume you use ros.ie ? mortortax online etc?

So why didn't the electronic voting come in then? Surely that would save huge money - no need to close some primary schools for voting day / no need to employ people to receive the votes / the counters etc.

I agree with the technology direction that you are advocating (ros.ie is great) and I do believe it is the way forward. I'm just trying to ascertain whether with your suggestion that there will in fact be any cost benefit and secondly can be trusted.

Lord TSC

To go with the Math example, how would attempt marks be distrubted by an automated correction system? How would students show all their work on the computer? Surely the exam would have to be dumbed down drastically and then there's complaints of the system being too easy and not credible.

Plus, such a system only works with Math; someone is still going to have to sit down and read over and correct every other paper done. You can't automate the correction of English, Irish, Geography, History etc......

puffishoes

therunaround wrote: »

One question.
My school has approximately 250 leaving cert and junior certs sitting a paper at one time.

We have 24 computers.

What should we do?

The exam's would take place in a central hub or we can purchase you knew PC's with the savings made from teacher reductions.

any ideas on how it's possible rather than not ?

or you just want to put obstacles in the way?

puffishoes

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

To go with the Math example, how would attempt marks be distrubted by an automated correction system? How would students show all their work on the computer? Surely the exam would have to be dumbed down drastically and then there's complaints of the system being too easy and not credible.

why could they not show their work? you realise we have pointing devices elctronic pens retina screens etc? this is 2012.

you could have an option for say "please review" where you're unsure but an attempt was made.

They simply get mailed to a DL and reviewed marked and sent back to the DB

technology eh, marvelouuuuus

Again, any ideas on how it could work? rather than how it couldn't?

if we all sit here and find ways it won't work, well it won't work.



Plus, such a system only works with Math; someone is still going to have to sit down and read over and correct every other paper done. You can't automate the correction of English, Irish, Geography, History etc......[/QUOTE]

you can adjust the exam's to suit the technology ask the same question a different way.

anyway, it doesn't matter if not every single aspect of it can't be done, exams are one part and if you can automate a % and reduce in all other aspects the over all is a % reduced = reduced costs.

no?

for a forum full of teachers, there's not many ideas.

doc_17

puffishoes wrote: »

for a forum full of teachers, there's not many ideas.

You shouldn't really insult teachers.

Or maybe we could go with your suggestion of more technology why don't we just buy them all a "knew" computer, send them home to watch the Khan Academy, close every school, sack every teacher, never have an exam and save loads of money! The "pupil's" would be delighted then!

spurious

We use Moodle and do all you describe.

You still have the problem of supervision, a major problem of plagiarism, of 'helpful' older siblings and even parents doing the work for the student.

You can only automate mulitiple choice and 'check the box' style correction - is that your great future for the Irish examination system? Ticking boxes?

No cuts in staff, no real savings.

I have too much work to do here to be watching this forum all the time.
People will just have to behave - much like the unsupervised students in this brave new world.

puffishoes

doc_17 wrote: »

You shouldn't really insult teachers.

Or maybe we could go with your suggestion of more technology why don't we just buy them all a "knew" computer, send them home to watch the Khan Academy, close every school, sack every teacher, never have an exam and save loads of money! The "pupil's" would be delighted then!

so no real ideas then..

puffishoes

spurious wrote: »

We use Moodle and do all you describe.

You still have the problem of supervision, a major problem of plagiarism, of 'helpful' older siblings and even parents doing the work for the student.

You can only automate mulitiple choice and 'check the box' style correction - is that your great future for the Irish examination system? Ticking boxes?

No cuts in staff, no real savings.

I have too much work to do here to be watching this forum all the time.
People will just have to behave - much like the unsupervised students in this brave new world.

How do we currently stop parents interfering with homework etc?

It's not really the place for what I think of the whole examination process anyway.

a huge amount of 3rd level degree's have tick the box tests

good preparation i guess.

surley the examination is really irrelevant it's how the kids are taught? How they're made prove they can wrote learn is pretty irrelevant if that's the road we're on.

seavill

puffishoes wrote: »

How do we currently stop parents interfering with homework etc?

It's not really the place for what I think of the whole examination process anyway.

a huge amount of 3rd level degree's have tick the box tests

good preparation i guess.

surley the examination is really irrelevant it's how the kids are taught? How they're made prove they can wrote learn is pretty irrelevant if that's the road we're on.

Seen as you ignored me twice already I won't bother posting the same thing again as you seem to ignore things where you are shown to be wrong.

Anyway the use of technology is fantastic and is used to varying success across the country.

Like someone said I also use Moodle for testing, classroom activities, posting homework, use youtube for posting instructional videos the students use to help do their homework and send back by e mail.
Things like this are being done currently, maybe not across the whole country but in some places.

I am not saying it can't be done however using our practical experience of the educational system in Ireland there are some issues.
Firstly as people keep saying the country is broke to implement this would be impossible in the current economic climate, however ideal it would be
You are talking about a whole new type of educational system here, there are other much more wealth advanced countries who have not done this, we would be the first in the world to implement a whole country technology based system like this, if it has not been done so far anywhere else, why not?

In fairness to you, and others you may not be aware of the H&S rules with supervising kids etc. Plus certain things on courses like science experiments, woodwork projects etc. have to be done under the supervision of their class teacher and signed off by that teacher so to have someone in a different school teaching it is not fully practical the way things are.

Yes these things could be changed but being unrealistic with out of this world suggestions is pointless also.

The new Construction Studies course has been developed between 1999 and 2003 and has still not been implemented as they cannot afford to do it. By the time they do they will have to redo the syllabus again.

The talk about all this technology being available is grand until you take a simple example of a huge leak in the roof of my classroom currently that we cannot afford to fix never mind a country wide roll out of full technology upgrade.

One other thing I know I have been caught out on this year is also the fact that some kids do not have access to computers or the internet at home. This can lead to a very embarrassing situation for the child even when accommodations are made within the school it can cause huge embarrassment.

Yes you are correct we need to get more up to date with certain things but even with the best will in the world there is a funding issue and cutting everyone another 5% will not solve the big hole.

However you are being slightly insulting to imply that these things are not already happening in places already. And as I said there are practicalities as to why what seem an obvious thing to an outsider cannot be done.

In relation to the exams system, despite the mistakes that have happened over the last couple of year it is an extremely safe system. Ticking boxes in every exam does not allow a student to show the breath of knowledge required I know I did a multiple choice Physics exam in college one of my friends knew **** all about it tbh and still managed a C2 through pure guess work.
Someone made a very good point about the e voting machines if this a simple tick the box exercise could not be made safe enough I would suggest that the technology is not currently there for 60,000 students to do a min of 7 exams each every June.

And before you go for me with the line of I'm only making excuses to stop things happening, I have shown how I use technology currently but the way the system is set up does not fully support it

puffishoes

seavill wrote: »

Seen as you ignored me twice already I won't bother posting the same thing again as you seem to ignore things where you are shown to be wrong.

If I ignored a question directed at me it's because i have all ready answered it. You asked questions that are clearly answered in the post. i don't see how you asking me questions show I'm wrong?

I have no problem admitting I am wrong which I'm sure I have done on this thread all ready.

seavill wrote: »

Anyway the use of technology is fantastic and is used to varying success across the country.

Like someone said I also use Moodle for testing, classroom activities, posting homework, use youtube for posting instructional videos the students use to help do their homework and send back by e mail.
Things like this are being done currently, maybe not across the whole country but in some places.

Glad to hear it.

seavill wrote: »

I am not saying it can't be done however using our practical experience of the educational system in Ireland there are some issues.
Firstly as people keep saying the country is broke to implement this would be impossible in the current economic climate, however ideal it would be
You are talking about a whole new type of educational system here, there are other much more wealth advanced countries who have not done this, we would be the first in the world to implement a whole country technology based system like this, if it has not been done so far anywhere else, why not?

The country is broke, so when it comes to bringing in infrastructure that could possibly save a lot of money in the future we're broke. When we're talking wages. someone else should pay. the whole point of this is so we can reduce the over all wage bill.

considering we're the "e-hub" of europe with our "knowledge" based economy hosuing every large coperate IT company in the world apparently. why should we be the first if that's the case? are we too modest to go look at us?

seavill wrote: »

In fairness to you, and others you may not be aware of the H&S rules with supervising kids etc. Plus certain things on courses like science experiments, woodwork projects etc. have to be done under the supervision of their class teacher and signed off by that teacher so to have someone in a different school teaching it is not fully practical the way things are.

As i said you find ways around it, you don't use them as excuses not to move foward. I'm amazed that post after post all anyone wants to do is find an obstacle or a problem and not one of them try to add to the solution.

seavill wrote: »

Yes these things could be changed but being unrealistic with out of this world suggestions is pointless also.

Lets change what we can then?

seavill wrote: »

The new Construction Studies course has been developed between 1999 and 2003 and has still not been implemented as they cannot afford to do it. By the time they do they will have to redo the syllabus again.

Paying some teachers up to 115k a year i'm not suprised they have no money, are you?

seavill wrote: »

The talk about all this technology being available is grand until you take a simple example of a huge leak in the roof of my classroom currently that we cannot afford to fix never mind a country wide roll out of full technology upgrade.

again most of the education budget is eaten up by wages. so the answer to fixing the leak in the roof is not one we need enistien to figure out now is it? but one you don't want to discuss.

seavill wrote: »

One other thing I know I have been caught out on this year is also the fact that some kids do not have access to computers or the internet at home. This can lead to a very embarrassing situation for the child even when accommodations are made within the school it can cause huge embarrassment.

Kids carrying out have the world in their pocket and don't have access to a computer. well. I think this should be a small minority. no problem. We'll find a soloution. have a chat with microsoft they love giving away things to students.

seavill wrote: »

Yes you are correct we need to get more up to date with certain things but even with the best will in the world there is a funding issue and cutting everyone another 5% will not solve the big hole.

so what? carry on regardless?

seavill wrote: »

However you are being slightly insulting to imply that these things are not already happening in places already. And as I said there are practicalities as to why what seem an obvious thing to an outsider cannot be done.

so lets find the way it _can_ be done.

seavill wrote: »

In relation to the exams system, despite the mistakes that have happened over the last couple of year it is an extremely safe system. Ticking boxes in every exam does not allow a student to show the breath of knowledge required I know I did a multiple choice Physics exam in college one of my friends knew **** all about it tbh and still managed a C2 through pure guess work.

I didn't say move to a tick only. but with all these highly educated minds in the country surley we can come up with an answer? right?

seavill wrote: »

Someone made a very good point about the e voting machines if this a simple tick the box exercise could not be made safe enough I would suggest that the technology is not currently there for 60,000 students to do a min of 7 exams each every June.

That's like saying oh the voting machines didn't work lets remove ATM machines and credit card machines and everything else. we're talking about securing exams, not the pin code to nuclear weapons.

seavill wrote: »

And before you go for me with the line of I'm only making excuses to stop things happening, I have shown how I use technology currently but the way the system is set up does not fully support it

Well i take my hat off to you, using youtube and moodle congratulations.

rainbowtrout

puffishoes wrote: »

Paying some teachers up to 115k a year i'm not suprised they have no money, are you?

Unsubstantiated nonsense which posted regularly has ruined T&L.
I've been here 5 years. So long people.

puffishoes

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Unsubstantiated nonsense which posted regularly has ruined T&L.
I've been here 5 years. So long people.

y, April 09, 2012

About 1,500 teachers earn between €85,000 and €115,000 a year, Department of Education figures have revealed.

from

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

Lord TSC

puffishoes wrote: »

y, April 09, 2012

About 1,500 teachers earn between €85,000 and €115,000 a year, Department of Education figures have revealed.

from

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/1500-teachers-earn-up-to-115k-a-year-189895.html

Out of interest, what percentage of teachers working is that? It's certainly not a majority and it's certainly not enough to claim all teachers are earning that.

for a forum full of teachers, there's not many ideas.

I think you'll find that when teachers have ideas, they don't post them up on forums seeking your approval; they go directly into the classroom and try to implement them.

It strikes me there's a lot of people out there who come on teaching boards trying to tell teachers how to do their job, and when the flaws in their thought process are shown (usually by just following the train of thought on a few more steps), the people with "ideas" get snarky and just start attacking the teachers instead. Not just you; there's at least one person a month seems to come onto the T&L board with "fantastic" ideas that, realistically, save no money at best and are impossible to implement on a full scale at worse.

puffishoes

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Out of interest, what percentage of teachers working is that? It's certainly not a majority and it's certainly not enough to claim all teachers are earning that.

no idea, if it's one teacher, it's one too many.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think you'll find that when teachers have ideas, they don't post them up on forums seeking your approval; they go directly into the classroom and try to implement them.

well a load of lone rangers going off in their own little direction is not very helpful now is it?

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It strikes me there's a lot of people out there who come on teaching boards trying to tell teachers how to do their job, and when the flaws in their thought process are shown (usually by just following the train of thought on a few more steps), the people with "ideas" get snarky and just start attacking the teachers instead. Not just you; there's at least one person a month seems to come onto the T&L board with "fantastic" ideas that, realistically, save no money at best and are impossible to implement on a full scale at worse.

I'm not telling a teacher how do their job I'm suggesting there's better tools to be given to the teachers for the jobs.

so again a load of rubbish excuses "impossible" "can't" "but but"

what an awful environment to have to work in.

Lord TSC

puffishoes wrote: »

no idea, if it's one teacher, it's one too many.

I'm guessing you'll find it hard to find many people who disagree there is a small minority who are paid a crazy amount. But the problem is a lot of teacher-bashers tend to try and make it look like the majority of teachers are overpaid like that, when in truth, that's a complete misrepresentation of the situation.

well a load of lone rangers going off in their own little direction is not very helpful now is it?

So you'd like all teachers to post up reports of their ideas online? It's not lone rangers. I regularly talk with other teachers about ideas, and as teachers, we see what works and what doesn't. Again, don't misrepresent the situation.

I'm not telling a teacher how do their job I'm suggesting there's better tools to be given to the teachers for the jobs.

so again a load of rubbish excuses "impossible" "can't" "but but"

what an awful environment to have to work in.

Yes, things like logic and reality can really be a bummer, can't they. Far better we just bull ahead with spur-of-the-moment ideas without working out the costs and practicalities of them. :rolleyes:

It would be very handy if we could ignore things like insurance and the individual learning needs of the students, and just implement your ideas. Apologies for teachers being a downer and pointing out the flaws in your amazing thought processes.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; teachers, for some reason, are expected by a lot of people to sit back, take the criticisms and never offer any defence of whats happening. You've come to board designed for teachers, offered some ideas and we've replied by pointing out the difficulties in implementing them. Its not that we are saying "lol no". We're pointing out the genuine problems with the "tools" being offered

spurious

Closing this as it has gone off topic and the usual lies are popping up.

Off to count my 115k now.