Leinster Schools Rugby 2012-2013 [Provincial Schools Thread Link in Post 1]

Foxtrol

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

Blackrock (mostly day pupils) - 66 Senior Cups
Belvedere (day school) - 10 Senior Cups
Terenure (day school since '72) - 10 Senior Cups

And considering Belvedere don't even have the luxury of pitches at their school (20 min walk to nearest pitch) I'm led to believe that boarding is not the big advantage it's being made out to be.

Much more important stats behind the number of cups than your day school/boarding school comments:

Blackrock - 1,100 male students
Belvedere - 1,005 male students
Terenure - 1,000 male students

As opinionatedfan posted it's the fact that they are a boarding school is one of the main reasons why they're competitive, as it helps to nullify the advantage that the larger schools have with their playing numbers/depth.

It's why Clongowes (450 male students) and Roscrea (200 male students) can compete with the big guns. It also puts into perspective the performances of Newbridge who are not a boarding school and would only have around 390 male students in the school.

(Before people get pedantic those figures are taken from wikipedia but should be around the correct figures)

themont85

Foxtrol wrote: »

Much more important stats behind the number of cups than your day school/boarding school comments:

Blackrock - 1,100 male students
Belvedere - 1,005 male students
Terenure - 1,000 male students

As opinionatedfan posted it's the fact that they are a boarding school is one of the main reasons why they're competitive, as it helps to nullify the advantage that the larger schools have with their playing numbers/depth.

It's why Clongowes (450 male students) and Roscrea (200 male students) can compete with the big guns. It also puts into perspective the performances of Newbridge who are not a boarding school and would only have around 390 male students in the school.

(Before people get pedantic those figures are taken from wikipedia but should be around the correct figures)

Blackrock have every advantage going in their favour. The most impressive rugby programme in Leinster currently is St Michaels.

its_phil

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

If it's the gigantic advantage which the Roscrea coach is making it out to be, then why have they yet to win the cup? And for that matter why do boarding schools not completely dominate the competition every year?

It's an advantage not a divine right to win a cup.

Player14

rughug wrote: »

Look at 17 - 0 up they just lost interest. They were always in total control. The most balanced team left in it by a mile.

Well then saying that no team will be able to live with them is nonsense. Top sides should be able to see a game out and build a score IMO, not 'lose interest' as you say.

RobbieRuns

Bohemian Hooligan wrote: »

Can't agree with this at all, roscrea were by far a better team by terenure, who were favorites before and no one even considered roscrea to beat them? Doubt them again at your own peril

Not everyone doubted Roscrea ! some of us who do not want to gloat, did call it (opinionated fan as well). I do believe that Roscrea have the best pack out there and for me they deserved that win. If they had a good kicker, they would be a much better prospect. They don't need bad weather to win either, the pack is that good.

Remains to be seen if the backs can perform off the platform that is being given to them in future games. They might not win the thing, but no one will trash them, thats for sure.

FellasFellas

The Pheasant wrote: »

14/1 or thereabouts

12/1, they gave the two league finalists good odds, Roscrea as league winners were at 12/1 and Gonzaga were at 25/1.

opinionatedfan

This is the 23 man ireland under 18 school's squad who played against the clubs side last month.

Props: Michael Lagan(Ulster, Methodist College), Oisin Heffernan(Leinster, Roscrea), Liam O'Connor(Munster, CBC), Oliver Jager(Leinster, Blackrock)

Hooker: Sean McNulty(Munster, Rockwell), Graham Reynolds(Leinster, King’s Hospital), Andy Roche(Leinster, Terenure),

Lock: David O'Connor(Leinster, Blackrock), James Ryan(Leinster, St Michael's), Rob Lalor(Leinster, Terenure)

Backrow: Josh Murphy(Leinster, St Michael's), Rory Moloney(Leinster, Roscrea), Nick Timoney(Leinster, Blackrock), Paddy Thornton(Leinster, Terenure)

Scrumhalf: Josh Fullerton(Ulster, Campbell), Charlie Rock(Leinster, Blackrock)

Outhalf: Ross Byrne(Leinster, St Michael's)

Centre: Fergal Cleary(Leinster, Clongowes), Adam Leavy(Leinster, St Michael's), Michael Courtney(Leinster, CBC Monkstown)

Back 3: Billy Dardis(Leinster, Terenure), Steve McMahon(Munster, Rockwell), Jack Owens(Ulster, Campbell)

funtime93

opinionatedfan wrote: »

This is the 23 man ireland under 18 school's squad who played against the clubs side last month.

Props: Michael Lagan(Ulster, Methodist College), Oisin Heffernan(Leinster, Roscrea), Liam O'Connor(Munster, CBC), Oliver Jager(Leinster, Blackrock)

Hooker: Sean McNulty(Munster, Rockwell), Graham Reynolds(Leinster, King’s Hospital), Andy Roche(Leinster, Terenure),

Lock: David O'Connor(Leinster, Blackrock), James Ryan(Leinster, St Michael's), Rob Lalor(Leinster, Terenure)

Backrow: Josh Murphy(Leinster, St Michael's), Rory Moloney(Leinster, Roscrea), Nick Timoney(Leinster, Blackrock), Paddy Thornton(Leinster, Terenure)

Scrumhalf: Josh Fullerton(Ulster, Campbell), Charlie Rock(Leinster, Blackrock)

Outhalf: Ross Byrne(Leinster, St Michael's)

Centre: Fergal Cleary(Leinster, Clongowes), Adam Leavy(Leinster, St Michael's), Michael Courtney(Leinster, CBC Monkstown)

Back 3: Billy Dardis(Leinster, Terenure), Steve McMahon(Munster, Rockwell), Jack Owens(Ulster, Campbell)

Why no Brewer?

opinionatedfan

funtime93 wrote: »

Why no Brewer?

was injured at the time, along with Greg O'Shea from Munster.

Quint2010

opinionatedfan wrote: »

was injured at the time, along with Greg O'Shea from Munster.

He was in the squad alright but pulled out sick the morning of the game.

Brian4416

What impresses most about Brewer is that he made the Irish Schools/U-18 side while effectively a 4th yr (doesn't he qualify next year also on basis of age?). That's pretty rare. Are there are other players of recent vintage who received caps when they were effectively in the 4th years?

Looking ahead, Brewer's problem is that he has had such a size advantage of throughout the years over his peers that core skill development can be overlooked. He can offload well in the tackle but has he a wider distribution game? Still, he'll be interesting to follow although his future may have been best served in the back row.

lurtz

Brian4416 wrote: »

What impresses most about Brewer is that he made the Irish Schools/U-18 side while effectively a 4th yr (doesn't he qualify next year also on basis of age?). That's pretty rare. Are there are other players of recent vintage who received caps when they were effectively in the 4th years?

Looking ahead, Brewer's problem is that he has had such a size advantage of throughout the years over his peers that core skill development can be overlooked. He can offload well in the tackle but has he a wider distribution game? Still, he'll be interesting to follow although his future may have been best served in the back row.

Jack O'Neill was in 4th year. Lots of people have played when "effectively" 4th years,Leavy and McGrath as well. There can only be a day in the age difference between an 18s rep and a 19s rep so they arent exactly nearly 4th years

opinionatedfan

Brian4416 wrote: »

What impresses most about Brewer is that he made the Irish Schools/U-18 side while effectively a 4th yr (doesn't he qualify next year also on basis of age?). That's pretty rare. Are there are other players of recent vintage who received caps when they were effectively in the 4th years?

Looking ahead, Brewer's problem is that he has had such a size advantage of throughout the years over his peers that core skill development can be overlooked. He can offload well in the tackle but has he a wider distribution game? Still, he'll be interesting to follow although his future may have been best served in the back row.

reports on Brewer from DementedMole who watched him play an interpros versus Connacht and Ulster last September.

• Harrison Brewer didn't quite have the impact I thought he'd have – he wasn't running over people for fun. That's not such a bad thing, in some respects – he played his position well, straightening the line, offloading out of the tackle, passing well and making good decisions. Leinster also used him quite a lot as a decoy, and it was clear that he was a marked man – he shipped some big hits from the RBAI centre partnership he was up against, but his basics with regards to body position and ball placement are first rate. You can see there's a good rugby brain ticking in there, rather than just a guy who's physically dominant.
  
• Dardis regathered a poor box kick on halfway and and went right, passing to the quick right wing who took off for the corner flag. He fed Harrison Brewer in the Connacht 22 to leave Brewer with a classic 2-on-1 with the Connacht fullback; Brewer stepped inside, drew his man and released pacy second row Rory Moloney to go over near the right corner and dot down to the right of the posts.
  
• Brewer has really, really sharp hands and reads the game well. Himself and Cleary often switched in and out in both attack and defense, with Brewer again being used as a decoy pretty often, just as he was against Ulster. Brewer is a very, very big unit who plays the position very well – it's certainly not a case of 'give me the ball and watch me run into people'. Outside him, Cleary is a genuine talent.

Gd194

say what ye want about roscrea, the proof is in the rugby...

funtime93

James Ryan is a 4th year AFAIK and in the Irish Schools squad and he's a second row.That's even more impressive.

Brian4416

funtime93 wrote: »

James Ryan is a 4th year AFAIK and in the Irish Schools squad and he's a second row.That's even more impressive.

Noticed that he captained the Michaels's JCT last year, so yes it's bloody impressive. Competing against lads fully 2 years older at Test level is massive disadvantage at this age, so he must be quite the physical specimen. Another one to watch for sure.

its_phil

Brian4416 wrote: »

Noticed that he captained the Michaels's JCT last year, so yes it's bloody impressive. Competing against lads fully 2 years older at Test level is massive disadvantage at this age, so he must be quite the physical specimen. Another one to watch for sure.

Test level? I think you mean senior level. :P

Brian4416

its_phil wrote: »

Test level? I think you mean senior level. :P

Sorry, I meant competing at International U-18 age group level.

rughug

Gd194 wrote: »

say what ye want about roscrea, the proof is in the rugby...

For goodness sake. They have 16 in first year this year. How can they ever hope to have the strength in depth that Rock or Michaels have. Every 1 wants the Dream final, the above 2. and just get the small boys out of the way.

joeguevara

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake. They have 16 in first year this year. How can they ever hope to have the strength in depth that Rock or Michaels have. Every 1 wants the Dream final, the above 2. and just get the small boys out of the way.

Who is everyone? Get back in your box. There's life beyond Newlands cross!

opinionatedfan

i'd love to see roscrea make it to the final, if they get their they deserve it.

some very talented players in that team and they are the definition of a team, no doubt about that.

its_phil

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake. They have 16 in first year this year. How can they ever hope to have the strength in depth that Rock or Michaels have. Every 1 wants the Dream final, the above 2. and just get the small boys out of the way.

Ah yes I forgot how those 16 first years make a difference to the senior cup team.

I suppose for all the reasons you have listed, a cup final for Roscrea would be a lot sweeter. Here is hoping Sean O'Brien and company have read your post. Everyone loves an underdog.

rughug

Gd194 wrote: »

say what ye want about roscrea, the proof is in the rugby...

For goodness sake Roscrea have only got 16 in 1st year this year. How can they be expected to compete with Rock and Michaels,with nearly 200 in first year alone .It defies logic.

joeguevara

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake Roscrea have only got 16 in 1st year this year. How can they be expected to compete with Rock and Michaels,with nearly 200 in first year alone .It defies logic.

Troll!

Didnt see many first years playing in the Cup.

its_phil

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake Roscrea have only got 16 in 1st year this year. How can they be expected to compete with Rock and Michaels,with nearly 200 in first year alone .It defies logic.

Competed with Terenure alright. Competed with Michaels just fine over two games last year.

rughug

its_phil wrote: »

Competed with Terenure alright. Competed with Michaels just fine over two games last year.

I suppose that lovely referee with the dodgy watch will be wheeled out again this year.

its_phil

rughug wrote: »

I suppose that lovely referee with the dodgy watch will be wheeled out again this year.

Nope. Just making the point Roscrea are more than capable of defying "logic" and compete with the best this year and last.

Sterrr_2

Dardis=newbridge madigan=newbridge
Doyle=clongowes treinor=kings hospital

Terenure clearly worst for scouting in playera as they seemed to think it was there god given right that this years group of players would win the cup

Theres a diference in getting club players in as to taking players from other competeing schools

funtime93

As much as I would love to see Roscrea do it a Rock v Michaels final would be epic.

Foxtrol

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake Roscrea have only got 16 in 1st year this year. How can they be expected to compete with Rock and Michaels,with nearly 200 in first year alone .It defies logic.

Dont take this the wrong way as I've said before I have a tonne of respect for what Roscrea do with their limited playing numbers but I'd honestly like to know how many of the starting side this year started in the school in from 1st year?

In 5 years time if that 16 who started in 1st year this year is diluted massively and propped up by the cream of Connacht (& possibly other provinces) top youth players who have been bought in you cant really play the woe is me on playing numbers card.

Bluestrike

rughug wrote: »

For goodness sake Roscrea have only got 16 in 1st year this year. How can they be expected to compete with Rock and Michaels,with nearly 200 in first year alone .It defies logic.

Michaels only have around 100 per year not 200, their not as big as the school they once were a feeder school to

Bluestrike

Brian4416 wrote: »

What impresses most about Brewer is that he made the Irish Schools/U-18 side while effectively a 4th yr (doesn't he qualify next year also on basis of age?). That's pretty rare. Are there are other players of recent vintage who received caps when they were effectively in the 4th years?

James Ryan from Michaels is in 4th Year and he is named on the U-18 squad, he was also J's captain last year when they won the cup

TheTalk

La Massia Barcelona's youth academy is kind of like a boarding school. Just saying.

Lobby Con Shine

TheTalk wrote: »

La Massia Barcelona's youth academy is kind of like a boarding school. Just saying.

Yeah but Barcelona play beautiful football.

Roscrea just bludgeon the opposition.

lurtz

Lobby Con Shine wrote: »

Yeah but Barcelona play beautiful football.

Roscrea just bludgeon the opposition.

if you watched the match you'd know thats not true,some of the offloading from CCR was simply sublime and not something you see very often in the schools cup

gfitz95

One of the modern day schools classics tommorow.These two schools have built up quite the rivalry over the past 10 years,should be a cracking atmosphere.Im predicting a Michaels win,but not by much...cant wait!

Bluestrike

Predictions of Michaels vs Clongowes game?
I personally think Michaels will get it but i think it will be a close game 17-13

opinionatedfan

themont85

gfitz95 wrote: »

One of the modern day schools classics tommorow.These two schools have built up quite the rivalry over the past 10 years,should be a cracking atmosphere.Im predicting a Michaels win,but not by much...cant wait!

Even longer than that, Clongowes twarted Michaels early SC finals before they finally won one.

Sharky marky

Watch both nure game nd rock game . I think if rock nd roscrea play roscrea should for sore beat rock . Rock won't ba able to handle roscrea pack .

The Pheasant

Sharky marky wrote: »

Watch both nure game nd rock game . I think if rock nd roscrea play roscrea should for sore beat rock . Rock won't ba able to handle roscrea pack .

Are you serious? Rock have one of the best packs in the competition - read this and come back with a reasoned argument http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2013/0221/1224330309169.html

Sharky marky

I'm just going on what I saw , rocks pack dominated a very weak kilkenny pack , kilkenny pack looked like a jct pack . While roscrea were up against a much better pack nd still completely dominated .

adamwalsh777

Sharky marky wrote: »

Watch both nure game nd rock game . I think if rock nd roscrea play roscrea should for sore beat rock . Rock won't ba able to handle roscrea pack .

How on earth can you say that? Rock have dominated every pack they've come up against this year, including Michaels and Clongowes. Admittedly they were not at their best against Kilkenny but you must consider that David Fortune (probably their best forward this year) was out injured, and Gary Fenn was playing out of position also. Roscrea probably have a heavier pack overall although this means little at this level. I am certain that Rock will be able to match the Roscrea forwards and on a good day even edge them out, but under no circumstances will they be dominated. Come back to this forum will some real knowledge and stop making outrageous (and presumably bias) claims

The Pheasant

To say that Roscrea will for sure beat 'Rock in the first place is excessive - I'd say 'Rock would give Roscrea a very good game...but to base it on Rock's forwards is underestimating them completely - they'll give Roscrea's pack a serious challenge

FellasFellas

Loughman against Heffernan would be fascinating to watch. Two great ball carrying props, with great scrummaging technique also. Pack on pack, that would be incredible to see. Timoney v O'Brien would be a good one as well, but I think O'Brien is a much better player than Timoney, but they've both put in good performances so far. Very impressed with the Rock centres, Ringrose and Lawton.

FrannoFan

adamwalsh777 wrote: »

How on earth can you say that? Rock have dominated every pack they've come up against this year, including Michaels and Clongowes. Admittedly they were not at their best against Kilkenny but you must consider that David Fortune (probably their best forward this year) was out injured, and Gary Fenn was playing out of position also. Roscrea probably have a heavier pack overall although this means little at this level. I am certain that Rock will be able to match the Roscrea forwards and on a good day even edge them out, but under no circumstances will they be dominated. Come back to this forum will some real knowledge and stop making outrageous (and presumably bias) claims

Independent observer here but i reckon that Roscrea Pack is the biggest i have seen since 1996 Rock side. I know irish times says this side from Rock is as big but i disagree. Undoubtedly a big Rock outfit but Roscrea are enormous. I think they have more natural size than the Clongowes side of 2 years ago (who were one of the biggest i have seen-better conditioned than Roscrea in my opinion) I think Rock pack will do better than Terenures and i think Rock have a better place kicker than Roscrea but no one will want to play them.

as for this talk of the minnows and only 200 in the school, seriously, 9 connacht lads in the ranks is no coincidence. Definitely an arrangement with Connacht going on there. fair play to both,good for the game out west and that has to be good for Irish rugby.

lurtz

adamwalsh777 wrote: »

How on earth can you say that? Rock have dominated every pack they've come up against this year, including Michaels and Clongowes. Admittedly they were not at their best against Kilkenny but you must consider that David Fortune (probably their best forward this year) was out injured, and Gary Fenn was playing out of position also. Roscrea probably have a heavier pack overall although this means little at this level. I am certain that Rock will be able to match the Roscrea forwards and on a good day even edge them out, but under no circumstances will they be dominated. Come back to this forum will some real knowledge and stop making outrageous (and presumably bias) claims

when will fortune be back? great player. If you were to look at who theyve both played,gonzaga and kilkennys packs were far smaller than rocks,that said kilkenny put up a very good fight and defended very well,much better than many predicted. But the nure pack would have been a much sterner test for ccr

lurtz

FrannoFan wrote: »

Independent observer here but i reckon that Roscrea Pack is the biggest i have seen since 1996 Rock side. I know irish times says this side from Rock is as big but i disagree. Undoubtedly a big Rock outfit but Roscrea are enormous. I think they have more natural size than the Clongowes side of 2 years ago (who were one of the biggest i have seen-better conditioned than Roscrea in my opinion) I think Rock pack will do better than Terenures and i think Rock have a better place kicker than Roscrea but no one will want to play them.

as for this talk of the minnows and only 200 in the school, seriously, 9 connacht lads in the ranks is no coincidence. Definitely an arrangement with Connacht going on there. fair play to both,good for the game out west and that has to be good for Irish rugby.

yeah there is an arrangement

FrannoFan

is anyone else impressed by the quality of the tight heads in this years competition? McEver in monkstown was excellent, Roscrea, Newbridge and Rock all have very good tight heads as well. All have great builds for the job as well as being mobile. Bodes well for the future.

opinionatedfan

calling SOB a far better player than Timoney is a bit much in my book.

don't think fortune will be back, 6th year afaik