Ireland - Out with the old?

Xavi6

With the Euros essentially done and dusted, it's on to the World Cup qualifiers which won't be easy given our group.

A number of fantastic servants are looking quite leggy at the moment so is it time to cut them loose as guaranteed starters? Namely Shay Given (who may retire anyway), Damien Duff, Robbie Keane and Richard Dunne.

There are players available in each position (Kieran Westwood, James McClean, Shane Long and Ciaran Clark for example) so in my opinion it's time to blood them with regular game time in the starting eleven.

The problem with that is we'd probably reduce our chances of qualifying for the next World Cup by going in with a relatively inexperienced team. On the flipside, by the Euro 2016 qualifiers we would have a team of good age with a campaign behind them.

The other option is to plough on as we are under Trap and see what happens between now and the end of his next contract when those aforementioned players will be two years older.

GavRedKing

Some of them will play on until the WC 2014 I'd guess.

We have some good young players coming through but will Trapp decide to play them is another thing.

I'd be of the opinion that we should as the guys you mentioned wont be around for much longer and we'll have to get on without them eventually.

We face a tough qualifying group with Sweden and Germany but if we can pick up more points away from home from the rest of the group then we'll have a chance, hopefully a new group of players will provide us with the catalyst to do it.

monkey9

I think we're well covered when Given retires with Westwood. I really rate him! But it's the centre back positions that worry me. There doesn't seem to anything there!

Deedsie

I'm hoping trap will be ruthless... Starting Monday, Westwood should start! Kelly in for ward... McLean, hunt & Gibson should start and Walters/long should be the strikers... This game is little more than a challenge game now... Why not start blooding players now!

Orando Broom

Andy Reid needs to go on operation thransformation first.

Orando Broom

monkey9 wrote: »

I think we're well covered when Given retires with Westwood. I really rate him! But it's the centre back positions that worry me. There doesn't seem to anything there!

Shane Duffy.

Slattsy

Trap should be the first to go imho.

Carlos_Ray

IMO Duffy and O'Shea should be our new centre backs. Coleman on the right. Cunningham on the left.

kippy

Slattsy wrote: »

Trap should be the first to go imho.

Replaced with?

Mitch Connor

There are a few players that should get more of a look in - Hoolihan, McCarthy, McClean, Long, Coleman, Duffy, Clark, but their only real chance of getting in to the team is if the players ahead of them actually retire.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the same team that started vs Croatia lines up to start our WC campaign. Only retirement will change it imo.

I think we could shake up the team and it would actually give us a better chance of qualifying, rather than put it more at risk. Some of the players we are ignoring are a lot better than the ones we are playing and while I can understand the arguement of some of them not fitting in to Trap's style - I simply think it is a BS excuse and is holding our side back.

Ireland have no chance of moving forward while Trap is in charge.

Mitch Connor

kippy wrote: »

Replaced with?

Roy Keane would be a good person to start with. I don't doubt for one moment we could get someone suitable for the job, whether it be Keane or someone else. Sanchez did brilliantly with NI, Hughes did brilliantly with Wales - neither are great managers - but they got the best out of their players. You don't need a world class appointment, just the right appointment.

The_B_Man

Deedsie wrote: »

I'm hoping trap will be ruthless... Starting Monday, Westwood should start! Kelly in for ward... McLean, hunt & Gibson should start and Walters/long should be the strikers... This game is little more than a challenge game now... Why not start blooding players now!

We'd get in **** if we put out a "B" team. There'd be uproar as it would be seen as an Italian manager putting out a weak team to guarantee Italy getting a win and progressing! Could you imagine it???? :eek::eek:

Mitch Connor

The_B_Man wrote: »

We'd get in **** if we put out a "B" team. There'd be uproar as it would be seen as an Italian manager putting out a weak team to guarantee Italy getting a win and progressing! Could you imagine it???? :eek::eek:

That is probably how it would look, but in reality I reckon we could gut the side that we put out last night and put out a better side vs Italy.

---

Westwood

Kelly--O'Shea--Dunne--Ward

Hunt--Gibson--Andrews--McClean

---

Walters-Long

I actually do reckon that would give us a better chance than the 11 we played vs Spain.

pickarooney

The_B_Man wrote: »

We'd get in **** if we put out a "B" team. There'd be uproar as it would be seen as an Italian manager putting out a weak team to guarantee Italy getting a win and progressing! Could you imagine it???? :eek::eek:

Then we get spanked 8-0 and Spain and Croatia draw 2-2 :pac:

whatawaster

We will have a great chance of qualifying for the European Championships in four years time given that it will be 24 teams. We should be building a team with that in mind.

Our group for 2014 qualifying is tough. Topping it is out of the question and second will be an uphill battle (Sweden are a level above Armenia, Slovakia and Estonia).

Westwood, McCarthy, Coleman, Long, McLean, Duffy, Clark are the players we should be building around.

Not everyone will agree, but imo players who won’t be around in 2016 should be discarded now unless we absolutely have no other options in their position. For instance, we have plenty of striker options, so we can phase out Robbie Keane. Likewise Damien Duff. We also have a decent replacement for Given.

None of this is going to happen though. Some people would prefer to hoof our way to the next finals and show no ambition when we get there. That’s fine and no doubt would be an achievement in itself, but I believe Irish football is capable of more than that.

Leslie91

It'll never happen but make (Roy) Keano manager.

Dump Given, McShane, Green, Whelan, Keane, Duff, Doyle, McGeady.

Bring in Coleman, Hoolahan, Pilkington, McCarthy and Robbie Brady for a start.

Pray Richard Dunne has something left, if not go with O'Shea at centre back, he is not a full back.

BraziliaNZ

I don't want to see McGeady in a green shirt ever again

monkey9

whatawaster wrote: »

We will have a great chance of qualifying for the European Championships in four years time given that it will be 24 teams. We should be building a team with that in mind.

Our group for 2014 qualifying is tough. Topping it is out of the question and second will be an uphill battle (Sweden are a level above Armenia, Slovakia and Estonia).

Westwood, McCarthy, Coleman, Long, McLean, Duffy, Clark are the players we should be building around.

Not everyone will agree, but imo players who won’t be around in 2016 should be discarded now unless we absolutely have no other options in their position. For instance, we have plenty of striker options, so we can phase out Robbie Keane. Likewise Damien Duff. We also have a decent replacement for Given.

None of this is going to happen though. Some people would prefer to hoof our way to the next finals and show no ambition when we get there. That’s fine and no doubt would be an achievement in itself, but I believe Irish football is capable of more than that.

Em.....how is that different from qualifying for the World Cup for example??

Francie Barrett

Like I keep saying, it's no good just changing the players, the system needs to be completely changed. Out of all the teams in the European Championships, we are by far and a way the worst team on the ball, the worst passers, and the worst at retaining possession. There are teams with about the same quality, or inferior players to us who are doing much better (Greece, Sweden, Denmark, etc.). Even in the Premier League, the tactics of just playing mindless hoofball are dying (Wolves got relegated, Villa nearly got relegated and Stoke struggled). No one expects us to be as good as Spain, but what we should expect is that our professional players don't clearly panic blindly as soon as they have possession of the ball. All this is Trapattoni's fault as he has no belief in the players whatsoever and is so pig-headed that he won't even try to get us playing a possession game.

BraziliaNZ

We are the most useless, unskilled, and badly managed team in the tournament by far, it's depressing

kippy

Whats the obsession with Roy Keane managing Ireland?
He's not exactly had a great track record and his "man management" skills aren't gonna help a national side.
Also, in reality there is no way keane would manage Ireland with Delaney still at the helm.

whatawaster

monkey9 wrote: »

Em.....how is that different from qualifying for the World Cup for example??

24 teams will qualify from Europe for Euro 2016.

13 teams will qualify from Europe for WC 2014.

Nearly twice as easy

Macca07

I think he'll stick with them for another year or 2 anyway. He has shown that Keane will get a game as long as he wants to play, Duff actually played well last night (more defensive than offensive, but still played OK), no one to replace Dunne (he is only 32), and Given has another few years left in him.

Dunne and Given had injury doubts prior to the Euros, and aren't 100% fit at the moment.

TBH, I think Duff would be the first to go, with McClean waiting to take over.

TaosHum

I dont think its unconcievable to think that we could throw in some younger guys into the team and keep up the level of performance we have produced in the past few years (or even improve them).

IMO Duff, O'Shea, Keane and Given will be gone after this tournament.

If that's the case, then I don't think McClean would be less effective as Duff. We have plenty of striking options that would be an improved on Keane at this point (and fit more in line with what Trap plays). Westwood at this point I think would do just as good as job as Given. O'Shea could be replaced with Kelly, although I think we would probably miss him.

I would also think McCarthy has to start getting more time on the pitch. Having two CM's playing who cant pass a ball forward is pointless and I'm convinced McCarthy could do the same job defensively. Wilson is another that would do a much better job than Ward at left back.

For me then your looking at a team like this for the start of the WC campaign.

....................Westwood

Kelly.....Dunne......St Ledger.....Wilson

McGeady.....Andrews.....McCarthy...McClean

................Doyle.......Long

Nice blend of youth and experience in their for me and with most of those players already apart of the set-up, shouldn't mean growing pains.

As for the tactics, I dont see them changing unfortunately.

Orando Broom

TaosHum wrote: »

I dont think its unconcievable to think that we could throw in some younger guys into the team and keep up the level of performance we have produced in the past few years (or even improve them).

IMO Duff, O'Shea, Keane and Given will be gone after this tournament.

If that's the case, then I don't think McClean would be less effective as Duff. We have plenty of striking options that would be an improved on Keane at this point (and fit more in line with what Trap plays). Westwood at this point I think would do just as good as job as Given. O'Shea could be replaced with Kelly, although I think we would probably miss him.

I would also think McCarthy has to start getting more time on the pitch. Having two CM's playing who cant pass a ball forward is pointless and I'm convinced McCarthy could do the same job defensively. Wilson is another that would do a much better job than Ward at left back.

For me then your looking at a team like this for the start of the WC campaign.

....................Westwood

Kelly.....Dunne......St Ledger.....Wilson

McGeady.....Andrews.....McCarthy...McClean

................Doyle.......Long

Nice blend of youth and experience in their for me and with most of those players already apart of the set-up, shouldn't mean growing pains.

As for the tactics, I dont see them changing unfortunately.

The tactics have to evolve. They simply have to. You have different players. If Robbie is retired or retires you can play 4-5-1 for starters. You can start to add in a fluid 4-3-3. A lot of Trap's persistence was down to Robbie being a better player in tandem.

Gillington

Although one of mine and nearly everyone elses heroes,Richard Dunne has hardly given a good account of himself in the last 2 games,I thought he was more then a hoof ball merchant. Start phasing him out,duff and keane could be good impact subs but I'd like to see them benched for the Italy game,although I reckon Trap will start with the same side

Mitch Connor

Orando Broom wrote: »

The tactics have to evolve. They simply have to. You have different players. If Robbie is retired or retires you can play 4-5-1 for starters. You can start to add in a fluid 4-3-3. A lot of Trap's persistence was down to Robbie being a better player in tandem.

Don't buy that at all.

We don't play a rigid inflexible safety first game to suit Robbie and we certainly wouldn't be changing to a fluid system (by any description) without him, as long as Trap is in charge.

If Robbie retired we'd likely just bring in Long for him and tell Long to play the same way.

Trap's game plan won't change - evidenced as much by the fact we have no other game plan, just different players in the same positions. Cox on for McGeady - Cox played left wing, as McGeady had been doing. Midfield not working and need a couple of goals? Bring on Green for Whelan. No change to approach or style, just different names being told to do the same job.

TaosHum

Orando Broom wrote: »

The tactics have to evolve. They simply have to. You have different players. If Robbie is retired or retires you can play 4-5-1 for starters. You can start to add in a fluid 4-3-3. A lot of Trap's persistence was down to Robbie being a better player in tandem.

I totally agree and would love to see a change in tactics/formation, but with only two years left on his contract and this more than likely being Trap's last hooray as a manager, I don't see him trying to get inventive or clever.

I'd question whether he will be bothered changing it because it could take time for the team to gel/get used to the tactics and by that time we could have to much to do.

Trap has never shown much sign of changing things in the 4 years he has been here. With only 2 years left, I not expecting things to change now. Even the possible lineup I posted is extremely optimistic.

lordgoat

Can we get rid of Mcgeady now too. Last night was the worst performance of any Irish player in a non-friendly I've seen by him.

There is nothing positive to take from him, he flatters to decieve and should be nowhere near the team. Doesn't keep the ball, has no footballing brain, wildly out of position for most of both games. A truly terrbile footballer.

Orando Broom

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Don't buy that at all.

We don't play a rigid inflexible safety first game to suit Robbie and we certainly wouldn't be changing to a fluid system (by any description) without him, as long as Trap is in charge.

If Robbie retired we'd likely just bring in Long for him and tell Long to play the same way.

Trap's game plan won't change - evidenced as much by the fact we have no other game plan, just different players in the same positions. Cox on for McGeady - Cox played left wing, as McGeady had been doing. Midfield not working and need a couple of goals? Bring on Green for Whelan. No change to approach or style, just different names being told to do the same job.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Trap can't persist with it. His argument was always underpinned with results. Seven goals in two games now begs to differ. The system has been completely undermined by the opposition. At one point last night Spain's 'offside line' was five yards inside our half! Granted the game was well won. We were pressed to death.

Orando Broom

lordgoat wrote: »

Can we get rid of Mcgeady now too. Last night was the worst performance of any Irish player in a non-friendly I've seen by him.

There is nothing positive to take from him, he flatters to decieve and should be nowhere near the team. Doesn't keep the ball, has no footballing brain, wildly out of position for most of both games. A truly terrbile footballer.

Would you mind expanding on that point? I made an observation watching the game last night about McGeady and Duff's positioning. I want to hear what you have to say first, though, if you would.

pickarooney

We had three players last night who played against Spain in 2002. Not one of them has improved an iota in the intervening decade.

Spain just had Casillas who has since established himself as consistently in the world's top three.

I wouldn't hold my breath for radical change such as picking players who can pass the ball.

Mitch Connor

Orando Broom wrote: »

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Trap can't persist with it. His argument was always underpinned with results. Seven goals in two games now begs to differ. The system has been completely undermined by the opposition. At one point last night Spain's 'offside line' was five yards inside our half! Granted the game was well won. We were pressed to death.

I agree with you in that I think we need to change and progress.

I just don't buy for one second your argument for why you think Trap WILL change.

Just listed to what Trap has said - the players made mistakes and didn't perform as they have previously or in training, in either game so far. Do you think that is him admiting tactical failures? He doesn't see the tactics as the issue, he sees the player performances as the issue.

I'll argue what I think should happen if you wish, but we are (in the context of this little discussion) discussing what we think will happen. there is no evidence to support your position.

Orando Broom

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I agree with you in that I think we need to change and progress.

I just don't buy for one second your argument for why you think Trap WILL change.

Just listed to what Trap has said - the players made mistakes and didn't perform as they have previously or in training, in either game so far. Do you think that is him admiting tactical failures? He doesn't see the tactics as the issue, he sees the player performances as the issue.

I'll argue what I think should happen if you wish, but we are (in the context of this little discussion) discussing what we think will happen. there is no evidence to support your position.

We could back and forth on this till the cows come home; but if he doesn't evolve.... Jaysus.

Honestly I think if Trap tries to be bullish about his role in the affair it could backfire. Time will tell of course.

supersean1999

duff, keane,dunne, given, out, ,green never picked again one of the worst players iv ever seen play for ireland,, o shea into center half, lets build a team around gibson, mc carthy, mclean, long has to play every game, wilson in, coleman in,

Leslie91

lordgoat wrote: »

Can we get rid of Mcgeady now too. Last night was the worst performance of any Irish player in a non-friendly I've seen by him.

There is nothing positive to take from him, he flatters to decieve and should be nowhere near the team. Doesn't keep the ball, has no footballing brain, wildly out of position for most of both games. A truly terrbile footballer.

Agree, he is a fraud.

QDog10

There's no doubt we we're all delighted to qualify for the tournament. But after seeing what it's like at the top table of world football we now need to address our playing style and personnel. The negative tactics have to go as there is a great opportunity for Ireland and The FAI to jump on the back of this for the World Cup qualifiers. However we will need to be more positive now and start players like Coleman, Mc Carthy, Long, Mc Clean.
Its the trade-off i suppose.. Do we sacrifice our defensive system that got us there for a more attack minded appraoch with higher risk attached.
Personally i'd choose the latter. Have a go...

Dickerty

Let's not cut Keane loose yet. He's our captain and record scorer. In out next qualifiers, he's likely to be needed on more than the odd occasion.

So a number of changes with Westwood, O'Dea, Clark, McLean, McCarthy, Gibson, Coleman featuring more. Cox, Long, Walter and Doyle as strikers (with Keane still in the mix). Maybe Steven Ireland can get back in the frame. Shane Duffy, Leon Best, Marc Wilson, Andy Keogh, Conor Sammon can all come in?

Not too shabby, all in all...

MoscowFlyer

Looking ahead to the qualifiers I'd love to see us go something like:

---

Westwood

---

Coleman---O'Shea--Dunne

---

Ward

---

Andrews---McCarthy

---

---

Hoolahan

---

McGeady

---

McClean

---

Long

---

Coleman hasn't played much RB lately and I'd be OK with pushing him further forward in place of McGeady at times but against weaker sides I think he could play as a RB.

noodler

I have to say, if we had norrowly lost out in a play-off against Montenagro or Turke, would people feel so strongly about discarding someone like McGeady who our top assister in the qualifiers.

Leslie91

MoscowFlyer wrote: »

Looking ahead to the qualifiers I'd love to see us go something like:

---

Westwood

---

Coleman---O'Shea--Dunne

---

Ward

---

Andrews---McCarthy

---

---

Hoolahan

---

McGeady

---

McClean

---

Long

---

Coleman hasn't played much RB lately and I'd be OK with pushing him further forward in place of McGeady at times but against weaker sides I think he could play as a RB.

You are close... but Ward is not a full back end of, Wilson from Stoke for that spot. And McGeady is a chancer, he should be dumped, give Pilkington a shot.

Francie Barrett

MoscowFlyer wrote: »

Looking ahead to the qualifiers I'd love to see us go something like:

---

Westwood

---

Coleman---O'Shea--Dunne

---

Ward

---

Andrews---McCarthy

---

---

Hoolahan

---

McGeady

---

McClean

---

Long

---

Coleman hasn't played much RB lately and I'd be OK with pushing him further forward in place of McGeady at times but against weaker sides I think he could play as a RB.

Ward can't be allowed play for us again unless there is an injury crisis.

JerryHandbag

Richard Dunne would be 34 by the time the next WC finals kick off, I'd say he'll play on. Duff though would be 35, Italy game might well be his swansong. Same for Given, I know goalkeepers go on for longer, he'd be 38 by the next finals, and David James was 40 playing for England in the last one, but I get the feeling Shay might call it a day.

Is Kilbane officially retired or what? Or has he made himself available still, in case of defensive injury crises?

Kerrydude1981

Should Stephen Ireland be asked to come back,there was talk in the rags a few months back that he would consider it.

LowOdour

JerryHandbag wrote: »

Richard Dunne would be 34 by the time the next WC finals kick off, I'd say he'll play on. Duff though would be 35, Italy game might well be his swansong. Same for Given, I know goalkeepers go on for longer, he'd be 38 by the next finals, and David James was 40 playing for England in the last one, but I get the feeling Shay might call it a day.

Is Kilbane officially retired or what? Or has he made himself available still, in case of defensive injury crises?

I would love to know the thinking behind this question.....is it just a general question or are you having thoughts of wanting him back in the squad:eek:

JerryHandbag

LowOdour wrote: »

I would love to know the thinking behind this question.....is it just a general question or are you having thoughts of wanting him back in the squad:eek:

General question, I know he's not exactly one for the future!

Past30Now

Some of the comments here relating to Given are a joke. He clearly wasn't fit going into this tournament. He is still the best goalkeeper we have, and will continue to be for at least the next four years. I'm a fan of Westwood, but his own club manager considers him second choice. With one exception Given has always been first choice for his club and should continue to be for Ireland.

There is no chance of Trap changing his tactics significantly for the world cup qualifiers. He may change some of the personnel, but he'll still play two holding midfielders and two full backs who generally don't cross the half way line.

I'd imagine Duff will begin to lose his place. He's still relatively effective, but McClean is clearly superior.

Keane should retire, and not wait to be dropped. He plays in a glorified retirement league.

MoscowFlyer

Leslie91 wrote: »

You are close... but Ward is not a full back end of, Wilson from Stoke for that spot. And McGeady is a chancer, he should be dumped, give Pilkington a shot.

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Ward can't be allowed play for us again unless there is an injury crisis.

Agree guys but I couldn't think of anyone else to put there!

Orando Broom

Past30Now wrote: »

Some of the comments here relating to Given are a joke. He clearly wasn't fit going into this tournament. He is still the best goalkeeper we have, and will continue to be for at least the next four years. I'm a fan of Westwood, but his own club manager considers him second choice. With one exception Given has always been first choice for his club and should continue to be for Ireland.

There is no chance of Trap changing his tactics significantly for the world cup qualifiers. He may change some of the personnel, but he'll still play two holding midfielders and two full backs who generally don't cross the half way line.

I'd imagine Duff will begin to lose his place. He's still relatively effective, but McClean is clearly superior.

Keane should retire, and not wait to be dropped. He plays in a glorified retirement league.

He most certainly has not. Given s a good keeper but a massively overhyped keeper.

kitakyushu

I'm not saying they should but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the 2002 heroes (Keane, Duff, Given) might call it a day after this tournament.

I'd say the only thing that has kept them going with Ireland even this long was to get another taste of a finals. Well they finally got it after 10 years and I reckon they can't feel too good right now. Further with Trap at the helm it's not like it's going to get any better by 2014 in the unlikely event we actually qualify v Sweden+Germany.

Personally I don't think we have the players at our disposal and sweeping changes (like McCarthy made when he took over) isn't going to work either as the players coming in aren't good enough either and would prove so if given the chance.

TheRedDevil10

Of the 23 man squad we have atm, I'd lose Forde, McShane, Ward, O'Dea, St. Ledger, Kelly, Hunt, Duff, Green, Whelan, Cox.
Given and Keane might retire.

Replaced by Henderson, Clark, Wilson, Duffy, Cunningham, Foley, Coleman, Brady, McCarthy, Fahey, Hendrick(Meyler if fit)