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    #332
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Sharrow wrote: »
    I can, at the prochoice counter rally last summer, and other times when I have take part in public debates and discussions.


    pro choice counter rally?


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    #333
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    A child?
    That's kind of emotive language in itself. A ball of cells is hardly a child.
    What would your opinion be on, say the morning after pill? Would you class that as killing a child?




    What's poor about that logic?
    You don't need to be a rape victim to know it's bad, but would you seriously claim that a rape victim wouldn't have a deeper understanding of exactly how bad it is?

    It doesnt give him/her the right to be the moral authority on it though. If experience afforded you the right to dictate to others what was right, the legal system would be a joke.


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    #334
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Relevance? This is not some kind of special "members only" club where only certain people are afforded the right to an opinion.

    It's relevant in that you have no actual experience of an unplanned pregnancy and therefore can't really say how you would react or what you would do. I have had experience of an unplanned pregnancy and what I wanted to do was the complete opposite of what I thought I would have done before I found myself in the situation. I was single, penniless and really sacred but I still wanted to have the baby whereas I always assumed I would want an abortion. Sadly I lost the baby but my reaction to the situation really surprised me.

    I suspect a lot of pro lifers quickly change their mind when faced with the reality of a baby they don't want. And that's the bit that annoys me about people standing on street corners handing out leaflets expressing a view of something they really have no concept of.


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    #335
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    So if you dont see the posts they dont exist? Is this like a tree falling in the forest? ;)I remember the posts, if you decide not to believe me, thats your problem - they are there for you to find should you lose sleep over their credibility.

    I am not a member of youth defence - why does it matter either way? And why did you try to draw some link between non-existance of said posts and YD membership? Are you trying to imply that YD members lie about being insulted or something?

    Here's an idea for an adult discussion - if you've something to say, say it...otherwise shush ;)

    Do you remember who posted them?
    I never said they didn't exist, i said i didn't see them and i would be interested in going back and seeing what exactly was said.
    So do you remember who it was?


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    #336
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Lux23 wrote: »
    It's relevant in that you have no actual experience of an unplanned pregnancy and therefore can't really say how you would react or what you would do. I have had experience of an unplanned pregnancy and what I wanted to do was the complete opposite of what I thought I would have done before I found myself in the situation. I was single, penniless and really sacred but I still wanted to have the baby whereas I always assumed I would want an abortion. Sadly I lost the baby but my reaction to the situation really surprised me.

    I suspect a lot of pro lifers quickly change their mind when faced with the reality of a baby they don't want. And that's the bit that annoys me about people standing on street corners handing out leaflets expressing a view of something they really have no concept of.

    Dont assume to tell me what I would or would not do in this situation - only I know this.


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    #337
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    It doesnt give him/her the right to be the moral authority on it though. If experience afforded you the right to dictate to others what was right, the legal system would be a joke.

    Interesting use of words.
    If experience doesn't teach us what is right and wrong, then what does?
    The legal system, all human systems in fact are based on past experience. What else could they possibly be based on?


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    #338
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Do you remember who posted them?
    I never said they didn't exist, i said i didn't see them and i would be interested in going back and seeing what exactly was said.
    So do you remember who it was?


    Off you go so...why are you still badgering me? No I dont remember who posted them, suffice to say they were from "pro-choicers". I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get at...


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    #339
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    pro choice counter rally?

    Yup on O'Connell street the counter rally to the pro life LIFE march.


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    #340
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Interesting use of words.
    If experience doesn't teach us what is right and wrong, then what does?
    The legal system, all human systems in fact are based on past experience. What else could they possibly be based on?

    Interesting word gymnastics... So you maintain that only those who have relevant experience can be allowed to make and enforce the law?


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    #341
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Dont assume to tell me what I would or would not do in this situation - only I know this.

    But you see you don't know no more than I did until it happened to me.


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    #342
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Yup on O'Connell street the counter rally to the pro life LIFE march.
    ah I see. yes I am sure both sides were as peaceful as each other.


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    #343
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Lux23 wrote: »
    But you see you don't know no more than I did until it happened to me.

    Simply not true. You experiencing an unplanned pregnancy does not give you the right to tell me what I would or would not do. I already know. I would never abort my unborn child. I know I cannot prove this to you, so there's very little point arguing with you about it.


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    #344
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    You like that dictionary don't you!
    It help provide clarity, and cuts through word play.
    When does it become a child?
    Good question. I'm not really too sure, that's why I don't like the idea of abortion. Sometime after fertilisation.
    It does none of those things
    Sure it does, I've experience therefore my opinion is more valid! That the purpose. We can all see it.
    It's very disingenuous to claim otherwise.
    Not really. And thankfully the concept of a democratic society sides with me on this point. We all get to vote - experienced or not.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Interesting use of words.
    If experience doesn't teach us what is right and wrong, then what does
    You've never experienced genocide I take it. Is it right or wrong? I happen to know it's wrong even though I've no experience of it (thankfully)


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    #345
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    True, I've been referred to as a freak, a bible basher, a "up my own arse type", part of a "shower" (laugh or cry at this one???), a dick...the list goes on :)
    One wonders why the need to substantiate their views with insults and put downs....surely the views should carry themselves?
    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    So if youdont see the posts they dont exist? Is this like a tree falling in the forest? ;)I remember the posts, if you decide not to believe me, thats your problem - they are there for you to find should you lose sleep over their credibility.

    I am not a member of youth defence - why does it matter either way? And why did you try to draw some link between non-existance of said posts and YD membership? Are you trying to imply that YD members lie about being insulted or something?

    Here's an idea for an adult discussion - if you've something to say, say it...otherwise shush ;)
    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Off you go so...why are you still badgering me? No I dont remember who posted them, suffice to say they were from "pro-choicers". I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to get at...

    I've gone back over all the posts in this thread.
    Guess what?


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    #346
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    That's exceptionally disengenous sbsquarepants. Go back over the thread again, and consider apologisng.


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    #347
    coffee_cake
    Registered Users Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    i see sbsp calling the phelps bible bashers, and possibly youth defense/their sponsoring catholic group
    i don't see any mentions of arse until oldnotwise brought it up
    i see youth defense again being called dicks and freaks

    how exactly could any of that have been aimed at you?
    i don't see it


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    #348
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I've gone back over all the posts in this thread.
    Guess what?

    Like I said, if you've something to say, say it. Nobody wants to play silly mind games with you.


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    #349
    tiny_penguin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭tiny_penguin


    Zulu wrote: »

    You've never experienced genocide I take it. Is it right or wrong? I happen to know it's wrong even though I've no experience of it (thankfully)

    You may have never experienced it personally but lessons are learnt from past experiences of it in the world - and greater lessons can be learnt from people who have. Everywhere learns right and wrong from somewhere - and these lessons don't come from nowhere.

    So while you're opinion is no less valid than that of a person who has experienced an unplanned pregnancy there are definite lessons that can be learned from the experiences of others. And to disregard the experiences of people who do not fit in with your ideals creates flawed logics.

    In the case of unplanned pregnancy not all experiences are the same, so to pick and choose the experiences you are basing your arguments around is flawed. I know someone who had an abortion and it ruined their life therefore everyone who has an abortion has their life ruined is a flawed argument. Prochoice people do not claim to think that the same outcome will be for everyone but recognize through the experiences of people that have gone through it that no unplanned pregnancy is the same and so it is up to the person in the situation to choose how the deal with it or react.

    Even if you are prolife - i find the way in which this particular campaign, and others like it - are unsuccesful as they don't seem to even attempt to understand the reasoning behind why people might choose or need to have an abortion. Instead they just tell them they are wrong. They may have a better chance in campaigning if their advertisements weren't so extreme and one sided.


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    #350
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Zulu wrote: »
    Good question. I'm not really too sure, that's why I don't like the idea of abortion. Sometime after fertilisation.

    I don't know either, i dislike the idea too, but unfortunately it's a shítty world sometimes and it might just be the best available idea. To claim it could never ever be the correct course of action seems very simplistic to me.
    Zulu wrote: »
    Sure it does, I've experience therefore my opinion is more valid! That the purpose. We can all see it.
    Not really. And thankfully the concept of a democratic society sides with me on this point. We all get to vote - experienced or not.

    Yes we all get to vote and so we should. That doesn't mean we all know as much as each other.
    Zulu wrote: »
    You've never experienced genocide I take it. Is it right or wrong? I happen to know it's wrong even though I've no experience of it (thankfully)

    Don't tell me what i have and haven't experienced! (Just a little genocide humour to lighten the mood!:D)

    No i haven't experienced it, thankfully. Yes, i know it's wrong. But i also am humble enough to acknowledge that a lot of Rwandans for example, know a lot better than me as to what exactly it's like.


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    #351
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Like I said, if you've something to say, say it. Nobody wants to play silly mind games with you.

    It's not a silly mind game, you weren't called any of the things you said you were called. If i've somehow missed it, quote it and i'll sincerely apologise.
    bluewolf wrote: »
    i see sbsp calling the phelps bible bashers, and possibly youth defense/their sponsoring catholic group
    i don't see any mentions of arse until oldnotwise brought it up
    i see youth defense again being called dicks and freaks

    how exactly could any of that have been aimed at you?
    i don't see it

    That's all i seen too.
    And that is actually why i asked was he a member of youth defence, which he has said he isn't.


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    #352
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    bluewolf wrote: »
    i see sbsp calling the phelps bible bashers, and possibly youth defense/their sponsoring catholic group
    i don't see any mentions of arse until oldnotwise brought it up
    i see youth defense again being called dicks and freaks

    how exactly could any of that have been aimed at you?
    i don't see it


    Oh yes I'm so sorry...the word was actually, "arsery" - is that ok?


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    #353
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    I'm offended... at nothing in particular. Perhaps because this thread is still going, but meh, being offended seems to be the new jazz.


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    #354
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    actually forget it, the feeding has gone on long enough.


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    #355
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    It's not a silly mind game, you weren't called any of the things you said you were called. If i've somehow missed it, quote it and i'll sincerely apologise.



    That's all i seen too.
    And that is actually why i asked was he a member of youth defence, which he has said he isn't.

    And that is actually why i asked was he she a member of youth defence, which he she has said he she isn't

    ...lest there be any confusion ;)

    Can I take offence on their behalf? After all, they represent (very strongly) my beliefs. Otherwise, the only people on here allowed to "take offence" at these posters are the ones directly affected.


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    #356
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Oh yes I'm so sorry...the word was actually, "arsery" - is that ok?

    No, it's not.
    The point is YOU weren't called any of those things at all.


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    #357
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Oh yes I'm so sorry...the word was actually, "arsery" - is that ok?

    It doesn't lead to too many pregnancies, so that's fine with me


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    #358
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Zulu wrote: »
    actually forget it, the feeding has gone on long enough.

    Now that is disingenuous.
    But i take your point, we've already degenerated to the point of just making things up, so it's probably best to just call it a day.


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    #359
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    No, it's not.
    The point is YOU weren't called any of those things at all.
    God...that MUST mean abortion is ok...


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    #360
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    God...that MUST mean abortion is ok...

    Hurrah! Thread over.


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    #361
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Now that is disingenuous.
    But i take your point, we've already degenerated to the point of just making things up, so it's probably best to just call it a day.
    Translation: I've managed to point score and catch you out on a technicality (because like it or not these insults were hardly levelled at pro-choicers were they?) therefore we have no choice but to accept that abortion is acceptable and these posters are offensive and lets finish the conversation while I am ahead...


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