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    #482
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Malari wrote: »
    OK, but the "syringe" function ends when sex is over. A pregnancy doesn't affect the man's body..

    So men don't have emotions? Psychological knock-on effects? Parental attachments?

    Given that you think a man's role ends at ejaculation I presume you also then agree that a man should be able to walk away from a child and never pay child support and so on?.. and that doing so is a choice that should be respected and accepted.


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    #483
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    prinz wrote: »
    Given that you think a man's role ends at ejaculation I presume you also then agree that a man should be able to walk away from a child and never pay child support and so on?.. and that doing so is a choice that should be respected and accepted.
    Of course not - don't be silly. Deadbeat dads should be castrated!


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    #484
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    prinz wrote: »
    There are virtually free contraceptive methods available to all. Unfortunately despite proven effectiveness if you try to suggest them you'l become a laughing stock and pariah. However..

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6375261.stm
    .

    That's a very impressive effectiveness percentage!
    I would imaging though that if you factor in young girls going out drinking and so on, that percentage of unwanted pregnancies would increase significantly. There is a big argument there as to personal responsibility of course, but we were all young and iresponsible once- surely as older and presumably wiser adults we should try insulate and protect them from the worst consequences of their immature actions in as much as we can?
    It's also less than useless against disease.


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    #485
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I would imaging though that if you factor in young girls going out drinking and so on, that percentage would increase significantly..

    Yeah but we're not allowed mention those. Abortion isn't only about irresponsible teens dontchya know.;).... I'd have that pointed out very quickly if I suggested it was.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    There is a big argument there as to personal responsibility of course, but we were all young and iresponsible once- surely as older and presumably wiser adults we should try insulate and protect them from the worst consequences of their immature actions in as much as we can?..

    Indeed. Well the poster I was replying to mentioned up to 25 year olds. I am not sure we should be protecting anyone at that age. I also don't think 'freely available' contraception without the education to go with it is really that effective.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    It's also less than useless against disease.

    Well yes, but you could always combine it with other methods, which I am sure would dramatically reduce the incidences of the oft heard.......contraception fails sometimes duh......... ......which again bemusingly often goes hand in hand with calls for more freely available contraception. So yeah doling out contraception, great. Combine it with education about the human body and biology even better.


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    #486
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Malari wrote: »
    I can't view those videos right now. What is the jist?

    She was a late term abortion survivor. They used a saline instillation tecnique I think but it didn't kill the foetus or something to that effect. She was born severely injured. I saw her talk in NUIG years ago, she's very religious because she believes God saved her not because the doctors ****ed up.


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    #487
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    ...surely as older and presumably wiser adults we should try insulate and protect them from the worst consequences of their immature actions in as much as we can?
    You see - that cuts both ways.


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    #488
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    prinz wrote: »
    Yeah but we're not allowed mention those. Abortion isn't only about irresponsible teens dontchya know.;).... I'd have that pointed out very quickly if I suggested it was..........


    So yeah doling out contraception, great. Combine it with education about the human body and biology even better.

    The teens thing was just an example of where the effectiveness might fall down. Teenagers aren't renouned for dilligently sticking to rules, or following plans. That's all i meant by that.

    I agree education - as in practically all matters is the way forward.

    Zulu wrote: »
    You see - that cuts both ways.

    True. Doesn't everything.
    There are people out there who had abortions and it "tore their lives apart", there are also people who had them and it didn't. There are those who were denied them and forced to have kids they didn't want, and that tore their lives apart.
    There is no one size fits all solution to a problem like an unplanned, or worse still an unwanted pregnancy.


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    #489
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    prinz wrote: »
    So men don't have emotions? Psychological knock-on effects? Parental attachments?

    Given that you think a man's role ends at ejaculation I presume you also then agree that a man should be able to walk away from a child and never pay child support and so on?.. and that doing so is a choice that should be respected and accepted.

    That's not what I'm saying. I never said a man's ROLE ends at ejaculation. You are comparing a woman having a pregnancy to a man ejaculating sperm into a woman. Those are the effects on the BODY, which is all I was ever talking about. You are extrapolating what I said to a man's role in a child's life? Come on, your presumptions are ludicrous and I think you know it.


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    #490
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Malari wrote: »
    That's not what I'm saying. I never said a man's ROLE ends at ejaculation.You are comparing a woman having a pregnancy to a man ejaculating sperm into a woman.

    You argued that a woman shouldn't be forced into the role of an incubator. I'm asking you why you think it's ok on the other hand for a man to be forced into the role of a sperm donor and nothing more? That is, in effect, what you think is ok, seeing as how you think a man wanting his child to be aborted is completely irrelevant.


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    #491
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    prinz wrote: »
    You argued that a woman shouldn't be forced into the role of an incubator. I'm asking you why you think it's ok on the other hand for a man to be forced into the role of a sperm donor ...
    ...or an ATM machine.


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    #492
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    prinz wrote: »
    You argued that a woman shouldn't be forced into the role of an incubator. I'm asking you why you think it's ok on the other hand for a man to be forced into the role of a sperm donor and nothing more? That is, in effect, what you think is ok, seeing as how you think a man wanting his child to be aborted is completely irrelevant.

    I am not saying that, you are just writing lies now.

    I don't think a man should be forced into being a sperm donor, alright? Is that clear? :rolleyes:

    I do think that a woman's right to NOT have to go through with a pregnancy is more important than a man's right to not have his child aborted though. That's not what you are claiming I think. The two statements above have nothing to do with each other.


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    #493
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Malari wrote: »
    I do think that a woman's right to NOT have to go through with a pregnancy is more important than a man's right to not have his child aborted though.

    In an ideal world either parent should be able to ask for an abortion. If the other objects they are free to have another kid with a willing partner.


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    #494
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    In an ideal world either parent should be able to ask for an abortion. If the other objects they are free to have another kid with a willing partner.


    I'm glad I don't live in your idea of an "ideal" world


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    #495
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    blacklilly wrote: »
    I'm glad I don't live in your idea of an "ideal" world

    You would rather that the father could force a woman to have his baby?


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    #496
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    You would rather that the father could force a woman to have his baby?

    I don't belive I said that but by your insinuation you would rather a father could force a woman to abort their baby?


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    #497
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    blacklilly wrote: »
    I don't belive I said that but by your insinuation you would rather a father could force a woman to abort their baby?

    Its certainly preferable bringing a child into the world to a father who never wanted it. There are sperm donors for that.


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    #498
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    InebriatedFool wrote: »
    http://schlicks.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/ist2_1152377-wire-coat-hanger.jpg

    this will tear more than her life apart :p

    Harshhh... even for AH.


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    #499
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    Ah so a child is only worthy of life if he/she is wanted by their father. Ouch a lot of kids are obviously not worthy of life then! Sure maybe we'll cull them all, it'd be better for them to be dead than be unwanted by their father


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    #500
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Ah so a child is only worthy of life if he/she is wanted by their father. Ouch a lot of kids are obviously not worthy of life then! Sure maybe we'll cull them all, it'd be better for them to be dead than be unwanted by their father

    Now you're just being crazy.
    What I said is don't create a child if you don't want one and won't accept your responsibilities.


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    #501
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Now you're just being crazy.
    What I said is don't create a child if you don't want one and won't accept your responsibilities.


    Ok so by don't create I presume you mean use contraception to prevent pregnancy as oppossed to abortion?


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    #502
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Ok so by don't create I presume you mean use contraception to prevent pregnancy as oppossed to abortion?

    Contraception is preferable to destroying a embryo, yes. Abortion is very traumatic for both parents, particularly the mother however, when contraception fails abortion is the only way to prevent/terminate a pregnancy.


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    #503
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Contraception is preferable to destroying a embryo, yes. Abortion is very traumatic for both parents, particularly the mother however, when contraception fails abortion is the only way to prevent/terminate a pregnancy.

    Well abortion does not prevent pregnancy, abortion is the ending of a pregnancy.


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    #504
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    blacklilly wrote: »
    Well abortion does not prevent pregnancy, abortion is the ending of a pregnancy.

    Contraception = prevent. Abortion = terminate.
    Obviously prevention is better. A woman has the right to take birth control pills regardless of her partner's wishes and rightly so.


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    #505
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    Thank you for clarifying that for me.


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    #506
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Contraception is preferable to destroying a embryo, yes. Abortion is very traumatic for both parents, particularly the mother however, when contraception fails abortion is the only way to prevent/terminate a pregnancy.

    Got any facts to back that up?


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    #507
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Got any facts to back that up?

    Do your own research: http://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=trauma%20from%20abortion&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=c72d84806ae8a6&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=643

    Some of what you find online is anti-abortion propaganda but my opinion is that it does have an affect on many people. Maybe you wouldn't think twice about it but for me it would be tough not to think about what could have been etc.


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    #508
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Thinking about what could of been is not the same as being traumatised.
    You are the one who made the statement and you are unwilling to back it up.


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    #509
    blacklilly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,687 ✭✭✭blacklilly


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Thinking about what could of been is not the same as being traumatised.
    You are the one who made the statement and you are unwilling to back it up.

    Abortion and mental health: Quantitative systhesis and analysis of research published 1995 -2009, Priscilla K. Coleman

    "After the application of methodologically based selection criteria and extraction rules to minimise bias, the sample comprised 22 studies, 36 measures of effect and 877 181 participants (163 831 experienced an abortion"


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    #510
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/cmaj-study.shtml

    Priscilla K. Coleman study included death and suicide that was the focus so it's slanted.

    http://feministsforchoice.com/new-study-debunks-abortion-trauma-syndrome.htm

    http://www.npr.org/2011/01/27/133237875/study-abortions-dont-cause-mental-health-issues


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    #511
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Thinking about what could of been is not the same as being traumatised.
    You are the one who made the statement and you are unwilling to back it up.

    My opinion comes from what I have read and heard about the subject. I'm sure you won't deny that there are cases where women have suffered depression and even become suicidal after an abortion.

    It would be much more difficult for you to back up your opinion that abortion does not have consequences for either partner.


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