Do you find these billboards offensive?

Pottler

I've never found anything, ever, offensive. If you go around looking to be offended, chances are you'll strike lucky. I've found loads of stuff weird or funny or thick, but offensive? You'd need a thin skin for that. "I am offfended". Really? Why, prey tell?. Maybe my offence gland is undersized.

Terry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwmclIMqWMc&feature=related

kowloon

I'm sure plenty would argue that a pro-abortion billboard would be worse as it would be arguing in favour of a course of action that is currently illegal. Personally I believe that censorship of opinion is extremely harmful to society.
So let them have their billboard, and let the other side do the same.
A right to freedom of expression is far more important than a right not to be offended by others.

Before someone purposely picks me up wrong, this doesn't apply to incitement to violence.

Is there another abortion referendum on the way or something?

kowloon

Terry wrote: »

Freedom of speech is not guaranteed under the Irish constitution, or boards.ie or Irish internet laws. Nor should it be.

Freedom of rational speech should be allowed.
Freedom to use scare tactics to ensure people follow your specific agenda should be completely outlawed.

I'm not sure I understand your argument for that Terry. Do you mean unrestrained freedom of speech, right down to race hate and the likes?
Or are you arguing we should have limited freedom of speech, as defined by what , for example, the government deems acceptable?

I've always felt it's a pretty dodgy situation to leave it up to any body to judge what's acceptable and what's not.

DonQuay1

csi vegas wrote: »

Personally, yeah I do.
I guess because I am a woman.
And the majority of replies from posters who are not I could bet are men.

Maybe add to your original post and poll choices the questions
'I am offended as a woman' 'I am not offended as a woman' 'I am offended as a man' etc?

Why do a poll like that?

Is it because if you're offended - and you're a woman - that the womans offendedness is more relevent?
Is a mans offendedness a better or worse barometer of what is offensive?

Sexist nonsense.
I thought we had given up on this type of thinking? Obviously not - if you're a woman!


Don't get me started on how you can cathegorically '...bet...' that any opposite viewpoint to your viewpoint on this topic '...are men'!!

LisaLee

Kitty-kitty wrote: »

I just don't think it's a government body's place to accept money to advertise political views. If the ad had been pro choice I would feel the exact same.

I have an issue with this also. As I've said before, it's not a case of pro choice vs anti abortion, this is about this particular advertisement being advertised all over Dublin, and on a nationwide scale. It's interesting to see the poll split fairly evenly, but this is what I wanted to find out.

A few people have brought up the atheist ads in the UK and I have to say that I agree with them. "There probably is no God, so relax and enjoy your life" isn't offensive to me. They're stating their beliefs in a way that allows it to be open to interpretation, by using the word 'probably'.

These posters haven't done that, by stating "There's ALWAYS a better answer" completely condemns any woman that has had an abortion, for whatever reason. Which they have no right to do imo. No pregnancy is the same as the next one, and by using the word 'always' they're trying to apply a "Applicable to everyone" idea which just doesn't stick.

What is irritating is that the people that I've spoken to about this that have been offended probably won't complain about it, as if sticking their heads in the sand will make it go away. It won't. The bottom line is, if these ads offend you or you don't think it's appropriate to see them out and about then lodge a complaint. Go through the proper means to have them removed.

Shenshen

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How does Irish rail being semi-state make a difference?

Notwithstanding the fact that the billboards aren't really all that offensive and that Irish law does not allow for elective abortion, I don't see any reason for complaint.

That's one of the things I find highly confusing about these ads, anyway... selective abortion is illegal, yet people campaign against it?
And not only do they campaign against it, they do so massively and inavasively.
I'm from a country where selective abortions are available, and the amount of campaigning here is simply mind boggling.

Shenshen

Zulu wrote: »

Hrumfph you missed the point, I'd suggest trying again but I fear it'll be in vain. It's not a lie if you believe that life is better than death...

So if carrying the pregnancy to term would most likely result in the mother's death, that's still a better option than having an abortion?

partyatmygaff

Shenshen wrote: »

So if carrying the pregnancy to term would most likely result in the mother's death, that's still a better option than having an abortion?

I'm pretty sure that whoever designed the advert knows that. As with any advertisement, its message is being aimed at a certain demographic (In this case, people who'd opt for an elective abortion).

Obviously, they could have specified under what terms there'll "always be a better solution" but like most ads they sacrificed precision and accuracy in their message for power and attention-grabbing effect and just left the person viewing the advertisement to fill in the blanks.

qrrgprgua

LisaLee wrote: »

I've spotted these billboard ads for Youth Defence popping up around the city centre, and personally find them offensive.

http://www.youthdefence.ie/am_cms_media/tears-billboard-mk2.jpg

Anyone I've spoken to about them doesn't like them, finds them offensive or emotionally manipulative and I've reported it to the ASAI (The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland).

I wondered what the general public thought about these ads?

Hundreds of families are desperate to have children in Ireland. There is always another choice and a more moral choice.. Murdering your child is wrong.. no matter what laws a country passes.

Abortion is not a neutral act that you leave behind you, it scars many women for life.. its natural for a woman to feel the loose of a child... taking the choice to abort has emotional consequences.

for many women that is nothing more full filling than the embrace of your child.

qrrgprgua

Shenshen wrote: »

So if carrying the pregnancy to term would most likely result in the mother's death, that's still a better option than having an abortion?

Don't confuse medically treating a women to save her life, Medical intervention to save the mother while doing all possible to save the child sometimes means the Child will die..

The intention is not to abort or kill the child... its to save both,,, If this is not possible then priority is to help the mother. Its not direct intended abortion..

Its morally correct to save the mothers life if there are no other options. Ireland has laws in place to protect the mother...

There is a big difference between this and Elective abortion.. When the mothers life is at risk the intention was not to abort..but this may happen sadly. Its not against the law in Ireland for a doctor to perform this procedure to save the mothers life if there are no other options, otherwise both would die.

Shenshen

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that whoever designed the advert knows that. As with any advertisement, its message is being aimed at a certain demographic (In this case, people who'd opt for an elective abortion).

Obviously, they could have specified under what terms there'll "always be a better solution" but like most ads they sacrificed precision and accuracy in their message for power and attention-grabbing effect and just left the person viewing the advertisement to fill in the blanks.

Which in this case makes the message a lie. It's no longer just a buffed-up half-truth the way most ads are, it's simply an untruth, a lie.
I still don't find it offensive, it's too obviously stupid for that, but I still think that the same laws should apply to all advertisments : embellish all you like, but don't lie.
Danone is not allowed to claim any medical properties of their dairy products so why should anti-abortion groups be allowed to lie in their ads?

Zulu

Shenshen wrote: »

So if carrying the pregnancy to term would most likely result in the mother's death, that's still a better option than having an abortion?

Let me answer that question with another question: do you honestly believe that there are no people who think that?

I'd be fairly confident that there are at least some people who do believe that, and by believing as much, makes the slogan "true" (at least to some people). Thus it's not necessarily a "lie".

Shenshen

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Don't confuse medically treating a women to save her life, Medical intervention to save the mother while doing all possible to save the child sometimes means the Child will die..

The intention is not to abort or kill the child... its to save both,,, If this is not possible then priority is to help the mother. Its not direct intended abortion..

Its morally correct to save the mothers life if there are no other options. Ireland has laws in place to protect the mother...

There is a big difference between this and Elective abortion.. When the mothers life is at risk the intention was not to abort..but this may happen sadly. Its not against the law in Ireland for a doctor to perform this procedure to save the mothers life if there are no other options, otherwise both would die.

The ad in question clearly and obvioysly states "There is ALWAYS a better option".
It does not say "There most likely is a better option", it says always. No qualifier.

As you pointed out, elective abortion currently is illegal here, so we have to assume that the women meant to be addressed by this ad are the ones considering abortion for medical reasons.

Shenshen

Zulu wrote: »

Let me answer that question with another question: do you honestly believe that there are no people who think that?

I'd be fairly confident that there are at least some people who do believe that, and by believing as much, makes the slogan "true" (at least to some people). Thus it's not necessarily a "lie".

If this is indeed the message of this billboard, "It's the better option for you to die rather than having an abortion", then yes, I would actually be offended by it.

Zulu

Shenshen wrote: »

If this is indeed the message of this billboard, "It's the better option for you to die rather than having an abortion", then yes, I would actually be offended by it.

but it's not, so...

Shenshen

Zulu wrote: »

but it's not, so...

So it's inoffensive, but a lie.

partyatmygaff

Shenshen wrote: »

Which in this case makes the message a lie. It's no longer just a buffed-up half-truth the way most ads are, it's simply an untruth, a lie.

When a car maker says "The best car in the world" when it's actually terrible, they're lying as well yet I don't see anyone making a big deal out of things.

In any case, seeing as how Irish law doesn't allow abortion, saying "There's always a better option" would be akin to saying "Don't break the law, there's always a better option than breaking the law" which is obviously quite ok from a legal perspective.

Danone is not allowed to claim any medical properties of their dairy products so why should anti-abortion groups be allowed to lie in their ads?

Simply because healthcare is one of the most highly regulated industries in Ireland. As for lying, I don't think it's as clear-cut as you make it. For elective abortion (Which is what this ad appears to be talking about), there's almost always a better (But not necessarily easier) option.

Shenshen

partyatmygaff wrote: »

When a car maker says "The best car in the world" when it's actually terrible, they're lying as well yet I don't see anyone making a big deal out of things.

In any case, seeing as how Irish law doesn't allow abortion, saying "There's always a better option" would be akin to saying "Don't break the law, there's always a better option than breaking the law" which is obviously quite ok from a legal perspective.

Simply because healthcare is one of the most highly regulated industries in Ireland.

Show me the car manufacturer that is allowed to use a slogan like "the best car in the world".
That slogan would break advertisment laws.

Danone can't make those claims anywhere in Europe, because they have nothing to back them up with. It would be a lie, and thus is illegal in advertisement.

Shenshen

partyatmygaff wrote: »

As for lying, I don't think it's as clear-cut as you make it. For elective abortion (Which is what this ad appears to be talking about), there's almost always a better (But not necessarily easier) option.

But that's not what they say, is it?
If they did, I wouldn't be here argueing. They chose to say "always" rather than "almost always"

Daveysil15

Why is it when humans do it its an abortion, but when a chicken does it its omelette? Yes it is offensive.

jam_mac_jam

If these anti abortion people like kids so much why cant they advertise in print media where kids wont see them. Mammy what's abortion?
No I dont like them for this reason, they should use some other way of advertising.

Nailz

I don't agree with the term "offended", I believe it's a term made up to represent what people think they should be when something actually angers/disgusts/annoys them, or just hates the idea of the fact that some idiot believes in what they're getting "offended" by.

Really it just bitterly annoys me.

partyatmygaff

Shenshen wrote: »

Show me the car manufacturer that is allowed to use a slogan like "the best car in the world". That slogan would break advertisment laws.

BMW for instance claim to offer the "Ultimate Driving Experience". Do BMWs always exclusively offer the ultimate driving experience? I don't think so but yet again there isn't as it's simply a matter of opinion. BMW think they offer the ultimate driving experience and you're free to disagree with that.

The same goes for an advert like this. Youth defence think there is always a better option to elective abortion and you're free to disagree. Just because you disagree with the message of the ad doesn't mean you can have it removed to try and silence them.

Danone can't make those claims anywhere in Europe, because they have nothing to back them up with. It would be a lie, and thus is illegal in advertisement.

Medical claims are not matters of opinion but matters of fact. They can't say their product helps cure X, Y and Z without evidence to back that up.

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Why is it when humans do it its an abortion, but when a chicken does it its omelette? Yes it is offensive.

This is why.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

If these anti abortion people like kids so much why cant they advertise in print media where kids wont see them. Mammy what's abortion?
No I dont like them for this reason, they should use some other way of advertising.

Yeah, they should advertise somewhere else where no one can see them. That makes a lot of sense.

iguana

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Hundreds of families are desperate to have children in Ireland.

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with another woman's completely separate situation. This isn't a Margaret Atwood novel dystopia, the bodies of fertile women are not the property of the infertile. As utterly devastating as infertility most certainly can be, any person who thinks their desire to be a parent justifies a woman being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term against her wishes is too despicably selfish to be entrusted with the care of a budgie, never mind a baby.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The same goes for an advert like this. Youth defence think there is always a better option to elective abortion and you're free to disagree. Just because you disagree with the message of the ad doesn't mean you can have it removed to try and silence them.

Medical claims are not matters of opinion but matters of fact. They can't say their product helps cure X, Y and Z without evidence to back that up.

Actually Shenshen is absolutely right for the exactly the reasons you are giving as an attempt to disagree with her. Psychology is a field of medicine and just about every independent study done on the after effects of abortion show that very very few women suffer long term negative effects. (While the opposite tends to be true for giving a child up for adoption.) To claim with implied certainty that having an abortion will 'tear apart' the lives of all the women who have them is a blatant medical mistruth. They are making a claim based on nothing more than opinion which flies in the face of a subjective medical matter.

Fizzlesque

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Hundreds of families are desperate to have children in Ireland.

Abortion is not a neutral act that you leave behind you, it scars many women for life.. its natural for a woman to feel the loose of a child... taking the choice to abort has emotional consequences.

for many women that is nothing more full filling than the embrace of your child.

You begin by saying 'hundreds of families are desperate to have children', in other words suggesting a pregnant woman have her child adopted, and then go on to say 'it's natural for a woman to feel the loss of a child'.

Which loss do you think a woman is likely to feel more? The child she never had or the child she carried for nine months, gave birth to and fell in love with before allowing another woman to become that child's mother?

When it comes to emotional consequences, making the adoption choice can be (and is for me) absolute mental and emotional torture, for the rest of your life.

I wouldn't advise any woman to go down the adoption route, now that I'm 23 years down that road myself. The biggest mistake of my life was choosing adoption - and I have to live with the regret till I die. Most unnatural thing I've ever done, allowing my baby to become someone else's baby. Sometimes I feel subhuman when I think about what I've done.

Now, I'm not saying this to argue abortion is a better choice - each woman has to make her own choice, and adoption mightn't be as life-disabling and severely damaging for another woman as it has been for me - but I suspect a lot of the people who say 'sure there's always adoption' don't fully understand the horrendous thing they're asking a woman to do.

I had no idea it was going to be as horrendous as it has turned out to be. And I'm lucky, I've always been able to remain in contact (letterbox contact) with my child. Without that I'd probably have killed myself during my darker years.

I simply wish to ask that people don't become blasé when offering this alternative. Not saying you are, but, I've read/heard it said by plenty who are.

qrrgprgua

Fizzlesque wrote: »

I wouldn't advise any woman to go down the adoption route, now that I'm 23 years down that road myself. The biggest mistake of my life was choosing adoption - and I have to live with the regret till I die. Most unnatural thing I've ever done, allowing my baby to become someone else's baby. Sometimes I feel subhuman when I think about what I've done.

Would you feel any better if you had aborted... I have heard similar stories of many women who regretted giving their child for adoption. for whatever reason they could not face raising a child at the moment in time. The billboard about which this thread is about advocates that there are many options (other than killing your child)

I don't think you are subhuman, I think you acted with good faith trying to do the right thing. We all have to live with the choices we make in life, some we regret, however bottom line you made a choice to respect life which is the most important.

Fizzlesque

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Would you feel any better if you had aborted... I have heard similar stories of many women who regretted giving their child for adoption. for whatever reason they could not face raising a child at the moment in time.

No, abortion wouldn't be the right choice for me. When I suspected I was pregnant, I told my sister and she asked me what I'd do if the test came back positive. My response was "I'll have to have an abortion" However, as soon as the woman at the Well Woman clinic told me the test was positive, all thoughts of abortion left me.

I'd feel better if even one person had said to me "if you want to keep your baby, I'll be there for you, to help you" but nobody did. My father suggested adoption, and initially I lost the plot and refused to discuss it.

However, over time he got into my mind and persuaded me it was for the best. In the absence of an alternative, adoption eventually became the only solid plan I had.

I don't blame my dad, he genuinely thought it was the best solution at the time. I thought it was the best solution, at the time. I was young, alone, immature, messed up. I might have a damaged daughter now if I'd kept her, but equally I might have a perfectly happy undamaged daughter now.

It's impossible to know how things would have turned out, and I definitely don't regret not aborting her. As I said, I just wish there had been even one person in a position to support me and advise me that adoption was probably not the best solution after all.

What can I do? What's done is done.

Just because abortion wouldn't be the right choice for me, doesn't mean it's not the right choice for another woman/other women. I fully support a woman's right to choose for herself, and it hurts and disturbs me deeply when I see people glibly say 'sure, there's always adoption' because, as I said in my earlier post, adoption can sometimes be the worst decision of all.

Maybe one day my daughter will hold me close and tell me she's happy she had a chance to have a life, even though it wasn't with me. I need her forgiveness more than anything in this world. And would like to have her love, too. I hope that day finally comes. I live in hope.

finty

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Is it not obvious?
Because there's not always a better option. There may be always a different option, but that doesn't neccesarily make it a better one.

This of course is only your opinion.

Their opinion is that there is "always" a better option.

What makes it a lie?
It's an opinion. It can be misguided, unreasonable and incorrect but if they believe it, it isn't a lie.

So no sbsquarepants, its not obvious!!

validusername1

there is not always a better answer. that's just stupid to suggest something of the sort. they're taking no consideration whatsoever into individual situations. and abortion doesn't necessarily tear a girl's life apart. some yes, some no.