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Waterford City lowest % payment of household Charge
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So let's forget about:
The billions poured into banks.
The ridiculously high wages paid to PS workers.
The ludicrously generous social welfare system.
All of the above the cause of these "common taxes elsewhere".
FFS what planet are you on? Seriously?
PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15 % , the Croke Park Agreement is also delivering quantifiable savings as verified by an Independent body & most importantly ensures that the country is not brought to it's knees by industrial relations mayhem - Brendan Howlin referred to this scenario as " Armegeddon " & of course as another poster has pointed out the vast majority of PS workers are not on " ludicrously " high salaries.
I have no doubt that when the current Agreement expires at the end of next year that another agreement will be entered into which again will prove difficult & challenging.
It would appear to me that given the high cost of living that Social Welfare is pitched at the correct level currently - the main focus should be to ensure that the system is not abused.0 -
deise blue wrote: »PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15 % , the Croke Park Agreement is also delivering quantifiable savings as verified by an Independent body & most importantly ensures that the country is not brought to it's knees by industrial relations mayhem - Brendan Howlin referred to this scenario as " Armegeddon " & of course as another poster has pointed out the vast majority of PS workers are not on " ludicrously " high salaries.
I have no doubt that when the current Agreement expires at the end of next year that another agreement will be entered into which again will prove difficult & challenging.
It would appear to me that given the high cost of living that Social Welfare is pitched at the correct level currently - the main focus should be to ensure that the system is not abused.
This thread iI thought is about Waterford's job crisis I thought not lies about public service being hardest hit0 -
Max Powers wrote: »This thread iI thought is about Waterford's job crisis I thought not lies about public service being hardest hit
Wrong - the thread is about non payment of the household charge.
However another poster broadened the issue by commenting on PS pay & Social welfare.
My post was merely a riposte to same , I challenge you to point out in my post where I stated that the PS was hardest hit - that would be an absurdity.
What I did post were verifiable facts about pay cuts suffered by the PS & my views on why the CPA is currently the only game in town.
It would also be interesting to see your views as to what " lies " were propounded ?0 -
Never, Never, Never.....:D0
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deise blue wrote: »Wrong - the thread is about non payment of the household charge.
However another poster broadened the issue by commenting on PS pay & Social welfare.
My post was merely a riposte to same , I challenge you to point out in my post where I stated that the PS was hardest hit - that would be an absurdity.
What I did post were verifiable facts about pay cuts suffered by the PS & my views on why the CPA is currently the only game in town.
It would also be interesting to see your views as to what " lies " were propounded ?
Deiseblue, My bad on gettin threads mixed up.- On public sector pay, im tired of hearing people in the public sector whinging (BTW i have 6 months left on a contract with the public sector) saying that their wages have been cut when private sector wages are lower and have most likely been cut more
- Public sector enjoy a hgh degree of job security
- Av public sector wages are higher
- Public pensions are so good they couldnt be bought in the private sector
- Higher than average holidays
- About 300% more sick leave on average
- Little known fact that as part of our bailout, approx 3bn was used to shore up public pensions
- The public sector outrage at proposed cutting of some of these fringe benefits is shameful
- Public sector incremental increases in this finanical environment.
- CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.
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Reality check for those in the public sector: your employer is bankrupt. In the private sector, there would have been mass redundancies, pay cuts, and changes in work practices. In order to protect the remaining jobs and pay levels.
The government has said on numerous occasions that the deficit is caused by the combined Public Sector and social Welfare cost.
The actual reality is that you cannot spend more than you earn. Yet we hear PS unions spouting about "over our dead bodies" etc.
The level of wages being paid are completely unsustainable. The level of jobs being provided is completely unsustainable.
Hard decisions are on the are of being taken in regards to this.
I have the greatest of sympathy for people affected by it. But you cannot stem the tide of economic reality.
The country is broke.
The country is borrowing hugely to keep PS workers rates and conditions at completely unrealistic levels relative to the economic situation on the ground.
You can be indignant all you like. This is, sadly, the harsh reality of it all.0 -
Going slightly off topic but in relation to what another poster was talking about above, Social Welfare Payments.
I heard that when the Ulster Bank problem started people started talking about Social Welfare payments not going through on time.
Social Welfare payments still getting payed into bank accounts?? This has fraud written all over it as you dont have to be in the country to draw money from a bank account, you had to go to the post office to collect it last i heard?
Why are the government leaving themselves so open to fraud?0 -
Max Powers wrote: »Deiseblue, My bad on gettin threads mixed up.
- On public sector pay, im tired of hearing people in the public sector whinging (BTW i have 6 months left on a contract with the public sector) saying that their wages have been cut when private sector wages are lower and have most likely been cut more
- Public sector enjoy a hgh degree of job security
- Av public sector wages are higher
- Public pensions are so good they couldnt be bought in the private sector
- Higher than average holidays
- About 300% more sick leave on average
- Little known fact that as part of our bailout, approx 3bn was used to shore up public pensions
- The public sector outrage at proposed cutting of some of these fringe benefits is shameful
- Public sector incremental increases in this finanical environment.
- CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.
I note your comment that you got the threads mixed up.
however , you failed to respond to the substantive elements in my last post.
You accused me of propagating lies about PS employment - the points I made were that the average pay cut was 15 % & that the Croke Park Agreement was currently the only game in town - both statements are factually correct.
I further asked you to point out where I had stated that PS workers were the hardest hit - no response !
There is absolutely no doubt that PS workers have suffered less than those who have been made redundant & less than those who have suffered pay cuts in excess of 15 % - it should be pointed out that according to the last known poll by the Irish Times in 2009 70% of Private Sector workers have not had their pay cut .
Being Private Sector myself I received a 3.5% increase being the first tranche payable under the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 & expect a further consumer price index linked increase shortly.
It appears clear to me that PS workers have suffered less than some & more than others - swings & roundabouts I suppose.
It appears to me that the current Government is more or less in accord with this viewpoint & are determined to honour the CPA .
The CSO have consistently pointed out that they cannot equably compare Public Sector & Private Sector incomes as it is impossible to quantify " like for like " occupations , they have also pointed out that Public Sector employees are likely to be older & are more likely to have 3rd degree qualifications & there are less menial jobs ( a terrible description I know ) in the Public Sector.
it should also be poined out that PS workers employed pre 1995 will not receive the OAP , if for example if I were to switch from my current DB pension scheme ( I can also claim the OAP in due course) to a PS type pension I would lose euro 12,000 per annum - & yes I know I'm lucky to avail of such a scheme.
In the overall scheme of things I believe that the Public Sector employees have made a substantial sacrifice in terms of aiding our putative recovery & should not suffer further pay cuts & I further believe that the CPA is our best bet in order to achive savings & reform & to avoid industrial warfare.0 -
Public workers complaining about cuts of 15 % is as i said tantamount to lies, it looks bad yes but not as bad as the rest of the labour force. It reminds me of a TD saying he has his pay cut by 10% yet his expenses and other payments are there. Added to that to say CPA is only game in town is untrue, the other game is to say what cuts are to be made and make the cuts that need to be made (in the fairest manner possible).
The CPA is there now and it doesnt look like the government (especially with Labour in it) will start making the changes necessary until it runs out, if that is what you mean by only game around then you are probably right there.
Re: the CSO comparisons, they were happy to make comparions in the good times when looking for wage increases.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »Public workers complaining about cuts of 15 % is as i said tantamount to lies, it looks bad yes but not as bad as the rest of the labour force. It reminds me of a TD saying he has his pay cut by 10% yet his expenses and other payments are there. Added to that to say CPA is only game in town is untrue, the other game is to say what cuts are to be made and make the cuts that need to be made (in the fairest manner possible).
The CPA is there now and it doesnt look like the government (especially with Labour in it) will start making the changes necessary until it runs out, if that is what you mean by only game around then you are probably right there.
Re: the CSO comparisons, they were happy to make comparions in the good times when looking for wage increases.
Of course I'm right - there is no probably about it, the CPA is the only game in town & has been since it's inception in 2010.
What you would like to see happen in terms of cuts is merely posturing combined with wishful thinking.
The other fact is that PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15% - if you care to dispute this - kindly provide facts , as I have already pointed out 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have taken no pay cut indeed many have seen their pay increase including myself.
In terms of wage increases ( outside the ambit of national wage agreements ) these were calculated by an independent benchmarking body .
I simply cannot understand why people want to see further pay cuts imposed on PS employees rather than see the savings made by the CPA.0 -
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deise blue wrote: »Of course I'm right - there is no probably about it, the CPA is the only game in town & has been since it's inception in 2010.
What you would like to see happen in terms of cuts is merely posturing combined with wishful thinking.
The other fact is that PS workers have suffered pay cuts averaging 15% - if you care to dispute this - kindly provide facts , as I have already pointed out 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have taken no pay cut indeed many have seen their pay increase including myself.
In terms of wage increases ( outside the ambit of national wage agreements ) these were calculated by an independent benchmarking body .
I simply cannot understand why people want to see further pay cuts imposed on PS employees rather than see the savings made by the CPA.
Steady on there deiseblue,
CPA is not delivering the required cuts in its current format, is open to criticism and needs to be re-visited ASAP if you think us balancing the books soon is important.
Stating that the public sector have taken 15% cuts and not representing the cuts taken by the private sector is misleading or posturing as you say. I have provided many facts there in a previous post including one from the CSO re: public pay going up and private going down. BTW shouldnt that 70% say 70% of private sector have taken cuts. I would be fairly sure >70% have taken cuts, maybe 70% no cuts back in around 2009
'benchmarking independent body':eek:......
I suppose the main reasons people including most independent (non political or union affliated economists) say the public sector needs to cut wages is
1. the over inflated wages which the stats have proven and
2. the cuts happening at the moment are not sufficent for us to balance the books, hoping the private sector will pick up the slack is something to hope for but cant be depended on in this uncertain time
3. no pay cuts will have to be made up for in layoffs or more taxes. More taxes (and layoffs) will stifle the economy even more.0 -
Reality check for those in the public sector: your employer is bankrupt. In the private sector, there would have been mass redundancies, pay cuts, and changes in work practices. In order to protect the remaining jobs and pay levels.
Reality check: There has been redundancies (Link). Pay has been cut, but not in the normal way. I have got an increment each year from 2008 in line with the contract i signed in 2007, however my wages have not gone up. Everything i get is taken the same year in yet another tax. Plus there is changes, people in the HSE are doing the jobs of 2 or 3 people, there is a new rota in the Gardai and mass station closures.The government has said on numerous occasions that the deficit is caused by the combined Public Sector and social Welfare cost.
The actual reality is that you cannot spend more than you earn. Yet we hear PS unions spouting about "over our dead bodies" etc.
That is obvious, but the majority of front-line essential services are being badly affected, which is resulting in a worse service when they are most needed. Just think about it, some day you might need an Ambulance, the Fire Service or Gardai and because of what is going on in the PS you could be waiting...The level of wages being paid are completely unsustainable. The level of jobs being provided is completely unsustainable.
Wages are not all that great for the frontline staff. Higher managerial, yes, frontline, no. Maxpower quoted that the average PS wage is €23ph or something like that. I can guarantee the majority of frontline don't earn that, with the exception of those who maybe have 25-30+ years of service to the PS. I'm in the PS 6 years and earn less than the average private sector wage that max quoted.Hard decisions are on the are of being taken in regards to this.
I have the greatest of sympathy for people affected by it. But you cannot stem the tide of economic reality.
The country is broke.
The country is borrowing hugely to keep PS workers rates and conditions at completely unrealistic levels relative to the economic situation on the ground.
You can be indignant all you like. This is, sadly, the harsh reality of it all.
I agree that hard decisions are being taken, but the frontline PS workers have taken the biggest hit within the PS. Go after the rest all you want, some of them are on stupid wages (for example, a Chief Superintendent in the Gardai is on wage of €185000 per year!), go after their wages.
But taking anymore from the frontline, who already have greatly reduced numbers thanks to mass retirements, will only result in Joe Public suffering. Reduce wages = reduced motivation, regardless what anyone says.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Reality check: There has been redundancies (Link). Pay has been cut, but not in the normal way. I have got an increment each year from 2008 in line with the contract i signed in 2007, however my wages have not gone up. Everything i get is taken the same year in yet another tax. Plus there is changes, people in the HSE are doing the jobs of 2 or 3 people, there is a new rota in the Gardai and mass station closures.
That is obvious, but the majority of front-line essential services are being badly affected, which is resulting in a worse service when they are most needed. Just think about it, some day you might need an Ambulance, the Fire Service or Gardai and because of what is going on in the PS you could be waiting...
Wages are not all that great for the frontline staff. Higher managerial, yes, frontline, no. Maxpower quoted that the average PS wage is €23ph or something like that. I can guarantee the majority of frontline don't earn that, with the exception of those who maybe have 25-30+ years of service to the PS. I'm in the PS 6 years and earn less than the average private sector wage that max quoted.
I agree that hard decisions are being taken, but the frontline PS workers have taken the biggest hit within the PS. Go after the rest all you want, some of them are on stupid wages (for example, a Chief Superintendent in the Gardai is on wage of €185000 per year!), go after their wages.
But taking anymore from the frontline, who already have greatly reduced numbers thanks to mass retirements, will only result in Joe Public suffering. Reduce wages = reduced motivation, regardless what anyone says.
You still don't get it. The employer is bankrupt. There is not enough money available to meet wages and commitments. Redundancies and paycuts are inevitable. This is the real economic situation - not the one imagined by PS unions.
Motivation is irrelevant. Ask any private sector worker. You are either conscientious at your job or not.
I take your point about the Garda superintendent. But the PS is nuts. Only yesterday I found out about someone retiring on a full pension - at 51. While the majority of rest of the populace must wait until they are 67.
Those outside the Public sector look on in astonishment and incredulity at the Utopian ideals of both the Public sector and the civil servants who run it. It is truly nuts and completely out of touch with reality.
We are sending civil servants to Europe to plead a begging case.....to civil servants who earn considerably less than they do......in order to support and perpetuate that difference. I think Europe have copped onto that one at last.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »Steady on there deiseblue,
CPA is not delivering the required cuts in its current format, is open to criticism and needs to be re-visited ASAP if you think us balancing the books soon is important.
Stating that the public sector have taken 15% cuts and not representing the cuts taken by the private sector is misleading or posturing as you say. I have provided many facts there in a previous post including one from the CSO re: public pay going up and private going down. BTW shouldnt that 70% say 70% of private sector have taken cuts. I would be fairly sure >70% have taken cuts, maybe 70% no cuts back in around 2009
'benchmarking independent body':eek:......
I suppose the main reasons people including most independent (non political or union affliated economists) say the public sector needs to cut wages is
1. the over inflated wages which the stats have proven and
2. the cuts happening at the moment are not sufficent for us to balance the books, hoping the private sector will pick up the slack is something to hope for but cant be depended on in this uncertain time
3. no pay cuts will have to be made up for in layoffs or more taxes. More taxes (and layoffs) will stifle the economy even more.
I agree Max. "independent body".....yeah.
As you say, the beleaguered private sector worker cannot continue to prop up this complete and utter sham.0 -
People refer to the harsh realitys & advocate further cuts to PS pay , terms & conditions.
This is not reality.
The reality is that the Croke Park Agreement is in place until the end of 2013 , people have always maintained that this Agreement would not survive the IMF intervention - the reality is that it has since it's inception in 2010 it has survived - only 18 months to go !
The second reality is that Labour who definitely support the Agreement form a major rump of the current Government & equally , albeit , somewhat reluctantly FG have stated that they will honour the terms of the CPA which incidentally has achieved it's targets as verified by an independent review & ratified by the IMF.
It should also not be forgotten that the Government are terrified that the the Unions have the capacity to bring the country to a standstill if they decide to end the CPA.
This is the current reality - everything else is mere speculation/wishful thinking.
The last poll in 2009 reflected the situation that 70% of Private Sector workers had not taken a pay cut , indeed quite a few , like myself , have received increases - you may choose to disagree with these findings but the reality is that you have no substantive facts to support your view.0 -
deise blue wrote: »The last poll in 2009 reflected the situation that 70% of Private Sector workers had not taken a pay cut , indeed quite a few , like myself , have received increases - you may choose to disagree with these findings but the reality is that you have no substantive facts to support your view.
As i guessed, 2009, a long time ago now in terms of the finianical crisis. Id say you can reverse those figures now even if it doesnt take into account private sector lay offs and redundancies. I have provided many facts in previous post, here is a reminder of just 1 which I think neatly indicates the differences between public and private pay you seem happy to ignore. BTW, these are figures from late 2011. Im afraid this is the reality
CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.0 -
Max Powers wrote: »As i guessed, 2009, a long time ago now in terms of the finianical crisis. Id say you can reverse those figures now even if it doesnt take into account private sector lay offs and redundancies. I have provided many facts in previous post, here is a reminder of just 1 which I think neatly indicates the differences between public and private pay you seem happy to ignore. BTW, these are figures from late 2011. Im afraid this is the reality
CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period.
The problem is - you are guessing , the most up to date poll shows that 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have not taken pay cuts , some have indeed received increases - unfortunately your personal view that this figure has changed dramatically cuts no ice - you have no substantive facts to prove your view.
The CSO figures may show the slightest of increases in average PS earnings which in all probability is down to the payment of contracted increments ( protected by the CPA ) however those figures also reflect the average 15% pay cut suffered in previous years.
The CSO has consistently stated that it is impossible to compare Private Sector & Public Sector pay due to many variables.
1. It has proved impossible to provide " like for like " jobs across both sectors for comparison purposes.
2. Employees on average across the Public Sector tend to be older than those in the Private Sector
3. Public Sector employees on average hold appreciably more 3rd level degrees than the average Private Sector worker
4. There are less menial type jobs in the Public Sector.
5. There are far less part time jobs/job sharing in the Public Sector.
The argument in any event , to my mind , is moot - the current Government seems determined to honour the CPA which as I have constantly pointed out has met it's targets as verified by the independent review body & ratified by the IMF.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the current Agreement expires - CPA 2 perhaps ?
This discussion will probably have more relevance at that juncture but at present the CPA is the only game in town that will provide savings & reform without cutting pay & probably provoking massive industrial unrest.0 -
deise blue wrote: »The problem is - you are guessing , the most up to date poll shows that 70% of those employed in the Private Sector have not taken pay cuts , some have indeed received increases - unfortunately your personal view that this figure has changed dramatically cuts no ice - you have no substantive facts to prove your view.
The CSO figures may show the slightest of increases in average PS earnings which in all probability is down to the payment of contracted increments ( protected by the CPA ) however those figures also reflect the average 15% pay cut suffered in previous years.
The CSO has consistently stated that it is impossible to compare Private Sector & Public Sector pay due to many variables.
1. It has proved impossible to provide " like for like " jobs across both sectors for comparison purposes.
2. Employees on average across the Public Sector tend to be older than those in the Private Sector
3. Public Sector employees on average hold appreciably more 3rd level degrees than the average Private Sector worker
4. There are less menial type jobs in the Public Sector.
5. There are far less part time jobs/job sharing in the Public Sector.
The argument in any event , to my mind , is moot - the current Government seems determined to honour the CPA which as I have constantly pointed out has met it's targets as verified by the independent review body & ratified by the IMF.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the current Agreement expires - CPA 2 perhaps ?
This discussion will probably have more relevance at that juncture but at present the CPA is the only game in town that will provide savings & reform without cutting pay & probably provoking massive industrial unrest.
CSO figures published recently:
the average hourly earnings in the private sector decreased from €19.76/hour to €19.48/hour between Q4 2010 and Q4 2011 - a reduction of 1.4%.Meanwhile, the average hourly earnings in the public sector increased from €28.50/hour to €28.64/hour, - an increase of 0.2% in the same period. Those figures cut a lot of ice with most people and is the 'reality' of here and now not 2009
These figures arent guess work, nor are they rehashed public union attempts at justifying excessive salaries.The above figures from CSO are more accurate and relevant than any figures or lack of that you have made to compare private and public. The points you made about 3rd level degrees etc simply are irrelevant when you consider this: we pay for the public sector and we cant afford it in its present state anymore.
The 70% figure is clutching at straws and certainly not most up to date data when you quote 3+ year old data.
It boils down to, do you think public pay is excessive in this economic time?
Do you think it should be cut and why?
I would answer yes to the the first 1 as all the latest stats show the great disparagy between the 2 sectors meaning there is more room in the public sector for cuts.
Yes to the 2nd one also for a number of reasons:- we simply cant afford the excessive wages
- we arent getting the return in efficient delivery of services
- the pay gap between the 2 sectors
- increasing taxes will kill the economy more
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We are going around in circles - the CSO themselves have stated that it is impossible to compare Public & Private sector earnings for the very reasons outlined in my previous post.
The reality is & you have basically agreed with me in a previous post - the Croke Park Agreement is currently the only recognised functioning method of delivering savings ( from memory I believe you said that it will in all probability see out it's tenure )
All arguments therefore are pretty moot until such time as negotiations with PS employees via their Unions resume sometime towards the end of 2013 ( I would imagine )
I look forward to resuming our discussion then when at least it will have some relevance & who knows further figures may come to light regarding the percentage of those in Private Sector employment who have suffered pay cuts but I would imagine that the figure hasn't dramatically changed.0 -
deise blue wrote: »We are going around in circles - the CSO themselves have stated that it is impossible to compare Public & Private sector earnings for the very reasons outlined in my previous post.
The reality is & you have basically agreed with me in a previous post - the Croke Park Agreement is currently the only recognised functioning method of delivering savings ( from memory I believe you said that it will in all probability see out it's tenure )
All arguments therefore are pretty moot until such time as negotiations with PS employees via their Unions resume sometime towards the end of 2013 ( I would imagine )
I look forward to resuming our discussion then when at least it will have some relevance & who knows further figures may come to light regarding the percentage of those in Private Sector employment who have suffered pay cuts but I would imagine that the figure hasn't dramatically changed.
Yep, your right there desie blue, it probably will but it is not the only option or 'game in town' , there is a better way talked about by a few TDs and impartial economists:
1. Identify who has the ability to pay
2. make them pay more taxes or pay them less
whether one thinks that the public service judging on latest pay amounts has the ability to pay compared to others is the question we will have to ask now, months ago or at end of CPA. I myself, prefer action now, im guessing Deiseblue, you would like to see CPA honoured, i reckon we are at loggerheads there.0 -
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deise blue wrote: »The last poll in 2009 reflected the situation that 70% of Private Sector workers had not taken a pay cut , indeed quite a few , like myself , have received increases - you may choose to disagree with these findings but the reality is that you have no substantive facts to support your view.
The reality being that their employers are solvent, trading profitably, and can afford to do so. Unlike the Pubic Sector - where the employer is bankrupt. See where this is going?0 -
http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/157536.htmlMayor accuses anti-Household charge campaigners
The Mayor of Waterford says people are being misled by campaigners against the household charge. Just 53 per cent of people in the City have paid the 100 euro charge and Waterford City Council has been informed that it's funding from Central Government is being cut as a result.More than 600 thousand out of the 5 million euro allocated is being withheld to encourage the local authority to collect the charge. However Waterford County Council which relies on the General-Purpose Grant more is facing a 2 million euro drop in funding.Mayor of Waterford Councillor Jim D'arcy says it was always on the cards that there would be reductions in services if people failed to pay the charge.
Theres a fine degree of horseshit
So theyre holding back at least double what all the outstanding charges would raise.
Edit: Actually scrap that last part. My maths is horiffic0 -
What do you think is horse$hit about it?
I think all people should pay it not just the usual (to use a term i heard) 'squeezed coping class'. I wish we werent in the economic situation we are in, we need to get money out of somewhere to pay the bills. If you think councillors, TDs etc are gonna take the cut and not street-bin collections, road sweeping, keeping parks clean, other services provided wont be cut you are wrong.
In my opinion, the charge should apply to all: private house owners, pensioners, people in social housing, etc. and all should pay it. Interestingly, i spoke to a lot of council employees and they seem to be the most militant of anti-charge people i have met even though this is going to pay their and their work-mates salaries.....The militant PS union ideology0 -
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The government said council funding would be cut if the household charge wasn't paid. The household charge was designed to contribute towards the local government costs. Waterford Council voted against it for a start and secondly there is a large amount not collected by the council.
The government could keep paying the council the full whack and keep demanding the tax be paid, but why would you bother paying then? Just refuse and you get your services anyway.
The household charge was poorly thought out and poorly implemented, so it was bound to fall flat on its backside. Why would you bother paying when the fines are tiny, the government isn't doing much about it and nobody really knows whether it will remain in place with it likely to be reformed next year. Easier to just keep the money and see how it all pans out.0 -
The first round of warning letters have being sent out to single Individual homeowners in certain areas-Wexford/Carlow/Louth/Donegal-has anyone on here in the Waterford area receive a first warning letter yet ?0
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yep, received a warning letter even though I did pay it. What a country we live in, does anything with the govts fingerprints on work well.0
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My Grandfather who is dead over twenty years and whose house I knocked down ten years ago got one yesterday....0
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Join Date:Posts: 3614
We got one too...
It began:
Dear first name,
Not Dear Mr. Surname, not Dear Ms. Surname...
I'm guessing some fool thinks using your first name makes the threat more friendly.
Wonder whether first names will still be used when "prosecutions start in November"?Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube
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To change from rage to something more progressive:
My issue is the clarity on the usage of the tax, I have asked for a deputy to question to be posed asking for demonstration of where the money come from and went to.
Therefore I think that a simple website, which pulls details for a government sql database which outlines:
- total revenue collected on the Property Tax, show the percentage breakdown
- then show what revenue has been returned to the county
- then have the county show where expenditure went.
These few published details would help to demonstrate usage, need and more than anything accountability to the government of where the money is going for.0 -
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Siamsa Sessions wrote: »We got one too...
It began:
Dear first name,
Not Dear Mr. Surname, not Dear Ms. Surname...
I'm guessing some fool thinks using your first name makes the threat more friendly.
Wonder whether first names will still be used when "prosecutions start in November"?
So, if I do get one, I will be able to use the same
Dear Joe,Mary, etc.
As this is my first letter/demand for payment in relation to this charge, I am going to ignore all other penalties/notices and only pay the original amount due, unless of course, you can prove to me that you have indeed sent an invoice (addressed to me, the householder and in writing) for the charge before the deadline to that for which the charge fell due.
Please find enclosed a cheque to the amount of €100.00 to discharge this debt in full.
Yours sincerely
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX0
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