Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Donnielighto

kryogen wrote: »

Why is the 16 jersey infamous?

Because of the knacker you have in your sig probably

Pro. F

Ignore for now. Bollocks of a phone fùcked up my reply.

kryogen

Donnielighto wrote: »

Because of the knacker you have in your sig probably

You must be mistaken, I do not have any knacker in my sig

If you mean the most successful United captain of all time, best player to ever play for Ireland and overall legend that is Roy Keane, well, you probably need to have a think about how you define a knacker

Sgt Pepper 64

Utd only drawing with little Ajax? Needing BEBE to score?

Looks like djPSB was right, the decline has begun!

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

Ok, good job I covered myself there.

Anyways it's true, he can match up to them.

Do ye not recall Phil Neville matching up to the Arsenal midfield several years ago?

Consistency is a key component of top quality, Carrick played very well last season, I hope he keeps up that level at least, but he will never be a top class midfielder. He just doesn't have the tools, he is not quick enough to make space for himself in the way that all the great midfielders can for a start.

Unlike Pro F though I do feel that there are other midfielders who would be first in line for the bullet if it came to it

kryogen

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Utd only drawing with little Ajax? Needing BEBE to score?

Looks like djPSB was right, the decline has begun!

Where have you been? The decline began in 2000 I thought? Then again in 04? Then again in 2011, the decline starts a lot tbh

Did you watch the game? Enjoyed it myself

Bebe is a superstar, why would you be surprised he showed his silky skills today?

Your just all excited ye beat the might Sounders eh

Donnielighto

kryogen wrote: »

You must be mistaken, I do not have any knacker in my sig

If you mean the most successful United captain of all time, best player to ever play for Ireland and overall legend that is Roy Keane, well, you probably need to have a think about how you define a knacker

The stuff you have listed has nothing to do with being a knack though. He set out to injure a player, which is a lot different from setting out to give a tough challenge or even to try to hurt someone, an injury is a lot worse to intend to do.

He is also a quitter, orchestrated his exit from United, walked out on Sunderland and Ireland. Great player, bad person.


Not holding it against you though :P

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

Consistency is a key component of top quality, Carrick played very well last season, I hope he keeps up that level at least, but he will never be a top class midfielder. He just doesn't have the tools, he is not quick enough to make space for himself in the way that all the great midfielders can for a start.

Unlike Pro F though I do feel that there are other midfielders who would be first in line for the bullet if it came to it

Yeah, consistency is key. But saying Fergie said Carrick is as good as Toure is a lie. He said he can match up to him, are there any people here who doesn't think Carrick can't match up to him?

I seem to recall many times last season when Carrick was one of our better performers.

Pro. F

MagicMarker wrote: »

Fergie is not infallible, no. Are you? Is your knowledge and understanding of the game perfect in every single aspect?

If I was seeking an opinion on a player, would I trust the man who has managed that player over a number of years and knows him better than anyone else, or an internet warrior posting from his bedroom?

For you to say that Fergie doesn't see "how poor Carrick's skill on the ball is" is incredibly presumptive. I am sure, of all people, Fergie is perfectly aware of Carrick's limitations.

This is fùcking stupid. Of course I didn't claim to be infallible. You dismiss disagreement with Fergie because of who he is. But if you admit that he can make mistakes then that dismissal is pointless. Your line of arguing has been run many times with many managers and many posters. It is utterly stupid. It can be applied to every single disagreement that anybody might have with any manager. And if your line of reasoning is followed then the only logical conclusion is that we should never express disagreement with managers when we post on message boards unless we ourselves are managers with a better record.

Fergie is clearly not aware of Carrick's limitations or he would have replaced him a long time ago. Fergie said that Carrick is as good as Yaya Toure ffs. He is either lying or he doesn't see how poor Carrick is on the ball.

MagicMarker wrote: »

...an internet warrior posting from his bedroom...
You appear to have some sort of stick up your arse regarding Carrick.

Ad hominem bullshìt. You are only using it because your argument doesn't stand up on its own.

Sgt Pepper 64

kryogen wrote: »

Where have you been? The decline began in 2000 I thought? Then again in 04? Then again in 2011, the decline starts a lot tbh

Did you watch the game? Enjoyed it myself

Bebe is a superstar, why would you be surprised he showed his silky skills today?

Your just all excited ye beat the might Sounders eh

Caught part of it, Bebe really did look quite good in parts?!
Cheeky bid for him RDM, him and Moses upfront could be the striker partnership of the century!

MagicMarker

Pro. F wrote: »

This is fùcking stupid. Of course I didn't claim to be infallible. You dismiss disagreement with Fergie because of who he is. But if you admit that he can make mistakes then that dismissal is pointless. Your line of arguing has been run many times with many managers and many posters. It is utterly stupid. It can be applied to every single disagreement that anybody might have with any manager. And if your line of reasoning is followed then the only logical conclusion is that we should never express disagreement with managers when we post on message boards unless we ourselves are managers with a better record.

If Fergie is clearly not aware of Carrick's limitations or he would have replaced him a long time ago. Fergie said that Carrick is as good as Yaya Toure ffs. He is either lying or he doesn't see how poor Carrick is on the ball.

You appear to have some sort of stick up your arse regarding sensible argument.

The only thing I dismiss is your assertion that Fergie is oblivious to Carrick's limitations. You're basing this on nothing but the fact that you think Carrick should have been replaced but Fergie keeps picking him, ergo Fergie must not know what you are privy to. This is not a sensible argument.

And no, Fergie did not say Carrick is as good as Yaya.

Donnielighto

MagicMarker wrote: »

The only thing I dismiss is your assertion that Fergie is oblivious to Carrick's limitations. You're basing this on nothing but the fact that you think Carrick should have been replaced but Fergie keeps picking him, ergo Fergie must not know what you are privy to. This is not a sensible argument.

And no, Fergie did not say Carrick is as good as Yaya.

Carrick is go but we do need support in midfield. Pro F was written on on the basis that Fergie is a great manager and who are we mere mortals to question him,

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

I seem to recall him describing Carrick as a useless footballer, or something like that. Playing for Spurs, getting a big money move to Man Utd and inheriting the infamous no.16 and still being a starter shows how useless he really is.

I have clearly said many times that I think he is limited and not good enough for the level we want to be at. I may have exaggerated on the odd occasion in some of my thousands of posts, but it's clear that what I really think about Carrick is more measured than ''useless''. So don't be trying to misrepresent my position.

The fact that a sub standard central midfielder has been played in two big English clubs shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Technically limited central midfielders is a huge and obvious flaw in English football to anybody that pays attention to the game.

Beyond that your argument boils down to the same foolishness as Magicmarker's and PJ's. Unless you think that we should never disagree with professional football managers, it is an utterly pointless line of reasoning.

Samich wrote: »

Also I could be wrong, but I don't think Fergie compared Carrick to Toure or Modric, he said they were the best in the position.

Samich wrote: »

Ok, good job I covered myself there.

Anyways it's true, he can match up to them.

Do ye not recall Phil Neville matching up to the Arsenal midfield several years ago?

He didn't just say Carrick could match up to them. He said Carrick could match up to them in terms of quality. So no, you haven't covered yourself there.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

I have clearly said many times that I think he is limited and not good enough for the level we want to be at. I may have exaggerated on the odd occasion in some of my thousands of posts, but it's clear that what I really think about Carrick is more measured than ''useless''. So don't be trying to misrepresent my position.

The fact that a sub standard central midfielder has been played in two big English clubs shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Technically limited central midfielders is a huge and obvious flaw in English football to anybody that pays attention to the game.

Beyond that your argument boils down to the same foolishness as Magicmarker's and PJ's. Unless you think that we should never disagree with professional football managers, it is an utterly pointless line of reasoning.




He didn't just say Carrick could match up to them. He said Carrick could match up to them in terms of quality. So no, you haven't covered yourself there.

Yep, he can match up to them in terms of quality. Just doesn't do it very often. I remember a few good runs from him with the ball in the past, and ended up withh a shot from inside the box. His role is obviously not to be a box to box midfielder. Yaya Toures is.

Vanbis

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Welbeck talks have stalled according to todays examiner.he wants 60k a week with the club offering 40k.

Danny Wellbeck has done SAF or achieved SFA to deservee 60k! If he doesn't sign on current terms on offer move him on.

Samich

Vanbis wrote: »

Danny Wellbeck has done SAF or achieved SFA to deservee 60k! If he doesn't sign on current terms on offer move him on.

I agree, if he's using Chicos wage as a benchmark he's wrong.

Chico starred at the world cup, and then went on to score vital goals in our season.

He'll sign though I'm sure.

MagicMarker

Vanbis wrote: »

Danny Wellbeck has done SAF or achieved SFA to deservee 60k! If he doesn't sign on current terms on offer move him on.

He's played significantly better than Chico, and if Chico is on that then it's only fair that someone who is currently ahead of him in the pecking order should be on it.

Samich

MagicMarker wrote: »

He's played significantly better than Chico, and if Chico is on that then it's only fair that someone who is currently ahead of him in the pecking order should be on it.

Kolo Toure is on mad money at City I'm sure Savic isn't saying he deserves 100k+

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Vanbis wrote: »

Danny Wellbeck has done SAF

A very, very bad mental image almost crept in after reading that. *shudders*

bullvine

Welbeck has nothing as footballer yet, let him leave, if he wants

Liam O

Pro F I'd say you are oblivious to Carrick's good points at this stage. You say he lacks passing ability ffs which he clearly has. He's a lot better at finding space than he used to be and is a master of interception. He's not perfect but he's pretty damn good and the odd time he breaks forward he's threatening too.

Felexicon

bullvine wrote: »

Welbeck has nothing as footballer yet, let him leave, if he wants

Yeah I agree. The only way forward is to sell any really promising player who wants to be paid the same amount as another really promising player.
Come on now Welbeck deserves 60k a week, he was quality for most of last season and kept Hernandez out of the team. It would be different if he was asking for 100k.

Donnielighto

Felexicon wrote: »

Yeah I agree. The only way forward is to sell any really promising player who wants to be paid the same amount as another really promising player.
Come on now Welbeck deserves 60k a week, he was quality for most of last season and kept Hernandez out of the team. It would be different if he was asking for 100k.

Hernandez didnt get 60K on last seasons performances you point is more of an argument for reducing chicos wages in fairness.

Felexicon

Liam O wrote: »

Pro F I'd say you are oblivious to Carrick's good points at this stage. You say he lacks passing ability ffs which he clearly has. He's a lot better at finding space than he used to be and is a master of interception. He's not perfect but he's pretty damn good and the odd time he breaks forward he's threatening too.

To be fair that's a great point. There are a few players that I've disliked for so long I can no longer see any good points to thier game.
While I don't agree with Pro.F about Carrick, the arguement that his opinion is wrong because it calls SAFs judgement into question is crazy. I think Fergie has got it wrong playing Phil Jones at RB. By the logic shown by some here I need to get my coaching badges, win multiple leagues and cups and go down as one of the greatest managers in history before I could question him over it. That is nonsense.

MagicMarker

Felexicon wrote: »

While I don't agree with Pro.F about Carrick, the arguement that his opinion is wrong because it calls SAFs judgement into question is crazy. I think Fergie has got it wrong playing Phil Jones at RB. By the logic shown by some here I need to get my coaching badges, win multiple leagues and cups and go down as one of the greatest managers in history before I could question him over it. That is nonsense.

Good thing no one is making that argument.

Donnielighto

MagicMarker wrote: »

Good thing no one is making that argument.

Well that is how it reads.

Liam O

yeah MM is clearly saying that he agrees with Fergies evaluation of the player over Pro F's, not that stupid tbh...

Donnielighto

Liam O wrote: »

yeah MM is clearly saying that he agrees with Fergies evaluation of the player over Pro F's, not that stupid tbh...

may i refer you to......

MagicMarker wrote: »

I love how some people think they see something in a player that the greatest manager in the history of the game, who deals with that player day in and day out, doesn't see. That amuses me, I find that funny.

it is exactly what he was getting at. ie, nobody can even question fergie about anyone at united

back in your box Liam

MagicMarker

Donnielighto wrote: »

Well that is how it reads.

Well then read it again.

Donnielighto

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well then read it again.

look up

MagicMarker

Donnielighto wrote: »

it is exactly what he was getting at. ie, nobody can even question fergie about anyone at united

back in your box Liam

Enlighten me as to how that is interpreted into "Pro F is wrong because he questions Fergie, who must be right because he is who he is".

If you read closely, I never even disagreed with Pro F with regards to his opinions on Carrick's capabilities. My issue was with Pro F's assumption that Fergie must not know what he knows.

lordgoat

While I don't agree with Pro F over Carrick. The amount people are misrepresenting his posts is crazy. He makes a good argument at least take what he says and try and debate what he says, not what you think he says.

Donnielighto

MagicMarker wrote: »

Enlighten me as to how that is interpreted into "Pro F is wrong because he questions Fergie, who must be right because he is who he is".

If you read closely, I never even disagreed with Pro F with regards to his opinions on Carrick's capabilities. My issue was with Pro F's assumption that Fergie must not know what he knows.

In the post

MagicMarker wrote: »

I love how...I find that funny.

you didnt cite any of Pro. F's posts so I assume you meant the reply earlier today to Blatter.

Pro. F wrote: »

Fergie just doesn't see how poor Carrick's skill on the ball is. Comparing him to Modric and Yaya - it's just daft. My only hope is that a Fletcher replacement is bought in and then we have a chance of seeing a proper central midfielder to push Carrick out of the team. Or maybe one of the young lads will get a chance and take it.

What are opinions about players' abilities other than what we see in them (in Carrick's case potential doesn't doesnt even muddy the water due to age) it wasn't even a positional thing because we are all talking about him as a mainly defensive CM. So if you are questioning Pro F. and deride him for disagreeing with SAF, then yes, you are inferring that "Pro F is wrong because he questions Fergie, who must be right because he is who he is".



For the record I don't agree with Pro F. but don't just fob him off with some sarcastic spiel about Fergie.

Liam O

Am I still allowed to post here from my box?

Fenix

What the hell are people smokin this evening!? Welbeck is one of the best young attacking players in the league with the potential to be a lot better! Oh and he's English! Give him 60k per week and a box of tayto cheese n onion as a sweetener.

Donnielighto

Please say someone has transfer news....

Samich

Fenix wrote: »

What the hell are people smokin this evening!? Welbeck is one of the best young attacking players in the league with the potential to be a lot better! Oh and he's English! Give him 60k per week and a box of tayto cheese n onion as a sweetener.

But I don't have 60k?

Donnielighto

Fenix wrote: »

Oh and he's English!

Shouldn't mean anything more for him than any foreign lad who can perform in the PL though. He'll get the 60k id say

double GG

Been away for the last 3 days, anyone care to give me a quick summary?

Sgt Pepper 64

double GG wrote: »

Been away for the last 3 days, anyone care to give me a quick summary?

Bebe is your most in form striker

no, no, really!

Copper_pipe

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

double GG wrote: »

Been away for the last 3 days, anyone care to give me a quick summary?

Bebe is your most in form striker

no, no, really!

Ya its TRUE,

Fergie confirmed we bidded on RVP

MagicMarker

Is there anyone who has gone on the pre-season tour and not got any game time yet?

Jax Teller

Did Sam Johnstone get on today ? Hes the only one Im not sure about

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Donnielighto wrote: »

Shouldn't mean anything more for him than any foreign lad who can perform in the PL though. He'll get the 60k id say

The rule for having a certain amount of homegrown players in the squad does mean English players are worth more.

Pro. F

MagicMarker wrote: »

The only thing I dismiss is your assertion that Fergie is oblivious to Carrick's limitations. You're basing this on nothing but the fact that you think Carrick should have been replaced but Fergie keeps picking him, ergo Fergie must not know what you are privy to. This is not a sensible argument.

And no, Fergie did not say Carrick is as good as Yaya.

I'm basing it on the fact that Fergie paid big money for Carrick and has kept him in the team as a regular starter for six years. I don't see how he could have done that if he agreed with my assertion that Carrick is a limited player who is poor in possession, has been holding the team back and isn't good enough for the level United want to compete at.

It is clear that Fergie rates Carrick as good enough to play for United. I disagree with that and you dismiss it with the old ''Fergie knows best'' argument. That's a pointless way to discuss football on a discussion forum.

Fergie did say Carrick is as good as Yaya. He said Carrick can match up against any central midfielder in the PL in terms of quality and then he went on to specifically mention Yaya. That is saying that Carrick is as good as Yaya.

Samich wrote: »

Yep, he can match up to them in terms of quality. Just doesn't do it very often. I remember a few good runs from him with the ball in the past, and ended up withh a shot from inside the box. His role is obviously not to be a box to box midfielder. Yaya Toures is.

Saying Carrick can match up to Yaya in terms of quality is saying that he is as good as Yaya.

It's not that he just doesn't do it very often. He has never once displayed the ability that Toure has.

A few good runs and shots does not prove that somebody is a good central midfielder.

Yaya Toure is miles better than Carrick when he is playing as a holding midfielder too.

Liam O wrote: »

Pro F I'd say you are oblivious to Carrick's good points at this stage. You say he lacks passing ability ffs which he clearly has. He's a lot better at finding space than he used to be and is a master of interception. He's not perfect but he's pretty damn good and the odd time he breaks forward he's threatening too.

I have always said that Carrick can play his passes well when given space. I have always said that the problem is that he can't operate without this space and can't make it for himself. It's ridiculous that at this stage you would be misrepresenting my argument as simply being that he lacks passing ability.

I don't agree that he is significantly better now at finding space than he used to be. However much he has improved, he is still nowhere near good enough at that essential aspect of the position he plays.

Also, I disagree with this idea that he is threatening when he breaks forward. There is nothing remarkable about what he does when he breaks forward. He is a poor dribbler and has a weak shot. Those rare breaks forward that he pulls out could be replicated by somebody like Phil Jones and it wouldn't generate much excitement. I think the only reason Carrick is lauded for them so much is because people are trying to find explanations for why Fergie has kept such a limited player in the team for so long.

I agree that he is good at intercepting and defending in general. I haven't criticised that part of his game.

DM_7

Pro F.

do you think United's lack of movement in last seasons Rigid formation was a factor in Carrick not finding space?

Yes Carrick struggled under pressure, I think a big part of that was he had no team mates open for a pass.

In a two man midfield it is hard to deal with teams playing three and four players in a central area. At first he has little chance of finding his central midfield partner as he is outnumbered. He can't go to the right if Valencia is playing, all he does is go up and down in a straight line.

I think United's formation last season made it easy for the opposition to cut off most of his options.

titan18

DM-ICE wrote: »

Pro F.

do you think United's lack of movement in last seasons Rigid formation was a factor in Carrick not finding space?

Yes Carrick struggled under pressure, I think a big part of that was he had no team mates open for a pass.

In a two man midfield it is hard to deal with teams playing three and four players in a central area. At first he has little chance of finding his central midfield partner as he is outnumbered. He can't go to the right if Valencia is playing, all he does is go up and down in a straight line.

I think United's formation last season made it easy for the opposition to cut off most of his options.

I think that's definitely true. Carrick isn't the equal of someone like Yaya, but he's still a good player imo. The addition of Kagawa should make it much easier for someone like Carrick for the reasons you say above. Playing against 3 in the middle as is often the case, Kagawa provides an excellent outlet to get the ball too.

fergiesfolly

Just read on the bbc that Smalling is out for 10 weeks with a broken metatarsal. Here we go again!

Paully D

How did Kagawa do today lads? Do you reckon he's nailed on to be in the starting 11 for the vast majority of the season or will he be eased in gradually?

DARK-KNIGHT

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Bebe is your most in form striker

no, no, really!

Just like Torres is Chelsea's lmao