Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

kryogen

Paulo Freitas‏@Cynegeticus

S.Paulo's pres J.Juvêncio talked to 'Jovem Pan' and denied Lucas is leaving. His agent told the same to CBN & criticized Brit papers. #MUFC

Papers full of **** again so

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

Paulo Freitas‏@Cynegeticus

S.Paulo's pres J.Juvêncio talked to 'Jovem Pan' and denied Lucas is leaving. His agent told the same to CBN & criticized Brit papers. #MUFC

Papers full of **** again so

Balls :P Don't want to be seeing that :P

Pro. F

n32 wrote: »

You can never have enough quality. Just remember our annual injury crises where midfielders are playing in defence and park and rafael are midfield! I'll take as much quality as possible . Keeps players on their toes when competition for places is intense

I'd argue that you can have too much quality, that eventually players start to get disgruntled when there are players who know they are too good to be sitting on the sidelines. But that's just a theory really, and probably a shaky one.

The more important thing that worries me is that you can waste the transfer kitty and wage budget, by pouring it all into a few positions and neglecting others. We need a left back badly and at least one central midfielder badly. But instead we could be buying yet another winger.

Also it's a real shame to see good players being pushed out of the team when they don't deserve it. It's the type of crack that Real, Chelsea and Man City normally are at. I hate to see it happen.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

I'd argue that you can have too much quality, that eventually players start to get disgruntled when there are players who know they are too good to be sitting on the sidelines. But that's just a theory really, and probably a shaky one.

The more important thing that worries me is that you can waste the transfer kitty and wage budget, by pouring it all into a few positions and neglecting others. We need a left back badly and at least one central midfielder badly. But instead we could be buying yet another winger.

Also it's a real shame to see good players being pushed out of the team when they don't deserve it. It's the type of crack that Real, Chelsea and Man City normally are at. I hate to see it happen.

When I said that Welbeck and Hernandez were too good not to play, there was a couple of posters saying "if they're good enough, they'll play".

Also I don't think we baaaadly need a LB, I think one more season from Evra and Fabio will be no.1 next season.

kryogen

I just cannot see the reasoning behind the Lucas deal, as has been said, unless Nani is on his way which I would hate, either that or Fergie plans to play Kagawa in a more deep lying role, which will be a waste of his abilities imo.

Lucas will be a number 10, he starts game predominantly on the right for his club now, but drifts anywhere he likes, and for Brazil he has played centrally. If we had signed Lucas and not Kagawa that would have made so much more sense, then again maybe Fergie intends, if he does buy him, to develop him as a winger, it could work alright, he has the skills and the speed for it but that is not really the area of the field that needs strengthening.

If he did come in it would mean that Nani/Young/Kagawa/Rooney/Welbeck/Lucas who could pretty much play anywhere along the support line, add in Clev and Ando for an advanced central role if necessary, Valencia for the right who is a pretty nailed on starter when fit tbh which automatically reduces the places in the team from 3 to 2 for all those players.

If the big money is there why not actually test some teams for some real quality in central midfield though? The wings and forward line are pretty fully stocked. There is certainly a more pressing area to be spending money on.....

Samich

@Kryo, do you not think the Kagawa deal was always going to happen, and then we were in for Hazard?

kryogen

Its not like for like or anything, but buying Lucas now would actually be like getting in a Nani of a few years ago (poor decision making at times etc) to replace a Nani who has been playing consistently well and is just entering his peak, and not exactly coming out of the deal brilliantly financially! There is no other place in the squad he can take really.

Unless Nani has made it clear he wants to leave, which is contrary to what he has said publicly, I just can't make sense of it!

Blatter

Pro. F wrote: »

I'd argue that you can have too much quality, that eventually players start to get disgruntled when there are players who know they are too good to be sitting on the sidelines. But that's just a theory really, and probably a shaky one.

The more important thing that worries me is that you can waste the transfer kitty and wage budget, by pouring it all into a few positions and neglecting others. We need a left back badly and at least one central midfielder badly. But instead we could be buying yet another winger.

Also it's a real shame to see good players being pushed out of the team when they don't deserve it. It's the type of crack that Real, Chelsea and Man City normally are at. I hate to see it happen.

I can definitely see your concerns, Pedro last season at Barca would be an example of what can happen. He had scored 45 goals and was excellent for Barca between 2009 and 2011 but struggled to get into the team for long spells last season because of the signings of Sanchez and Fabregas, and his development was stunted as a result. I'd hate to see that sort of thing happen to Welbeck/Hernandez.

If he's going to buy van Persie and Lucas Moura then I'd prefer if we sold Hernandez if we could get £20m for him. Because all that I can see happening is him sitting on the bench for the majority of the time, play poorly when he is selected because he'd have no chance to get any sort of rhythm going, and then his value is just going to decrease. It would be all fairly inevitable, I'd give little chance of it working out differently.

At least there'd be more hope for Welbeck to continue his development because he can play anywhere across the front line in a 4-4-2/4-3-3, or even play at a high level on the wing in a 4-4-2.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

@Kryo, do you not think the Kagawa deal was always going to happen, and then we were in for Hazard?

If I'm being honest I don't know, that's what Fergie has said alright, but who knows, the Kagawa deal didn't get done until Hazard was gone to Chelsea, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Kagawa was the back up in case the club didn't land Hazard.

I would like to believe Fergies version of events of course. Unless there is a serious change in system I can't see how it made sense to sign both Kagawa and Hazard.

I see the team playing 4411 or 4231 a lot this season, and I don't see how RVP fits into that, or Lucas tbh with the players currently in the squad.

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

If I'm being honest I don't know, that's what Fergie has said alright, but who knows, the Kagawa deal didn't get done until Hazard was gone to Chelsea, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Kagawa was the back up in case the club didn't land Hazard.

I would like to believe Fergies version of events of course. Unless there is a serious change in system I can't see how it made sense to sign both Kagawa and Hazard.

I see the team playing 4411 or 4231 a lot this season, and I don't see how RVP fits into that, or Lucas tbh with the players currently in the squad.

Wasn't the Kagawa deal slowed down by him playing for Japan?

I think Hernandez might be loaned out for a season tbh if we sign RvP. Can see fergie coming out saying he needs a full season of football after last seasons injury ravaged one.

Nuri Sahin

Pro. F wrote: »

Lucas, Nani, Valencia and Young. That is too much money spent on wingers. We would have over £30m of wingers sitting on the bench each week if Lucas starts with one from the rest. This is a very inefficient way to spend transfer money.

If this Lucas transfer goes through then it looks like we are turning into a club like Real or Man City. Spending significant money on players we don't need then wasting them because you can only start eleven players. And before anybody says it, no there aren't enough games to go around.

Aye, I'm sure most United fans won't mind that. I'm sure that if it happening to either of my clubs I'd probably feel similar, but from a total footballing POV, be a shame to such players benched.

I've said it before namely on Twitter and I think on here once or twice before but I really don't get the signing of HazardLucas unless one of the current wingers are off.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

Wasn't the Kagawa deal slowed down by him playing for Japan?

I think Hernandez might be loaned out for a season tbh if we sign RvP. Can see fergie coming out saying he needs a full season of football after last seasons injury ravaged one.

Fergie said it was slow because there was a lot of negotiating. As I said, I would like to believe that we were interested in signing both, but I find it a little unlikely tbh

I agree with Blatter, if we are actually going to sign RVP then we should just sell Hernandez

kryogen

-Ade- wrote: »

Aye, I'm sure most United fans won't mind that. I'm sure that if it happening to either of my clubs I'd probably feel similar, but from a total footballing POV, be a shame to such players benched.

I've said it before namely on Twitter and I think on here once or twice before but I really don't get the signing of HazardLucas unless one of the current wingers are off.

Im almost certain if Lucas is coming in Nani is off, Young was only bought last season, unlikely to be sold, Valencia is clearly the first choice winger, Fergie loves him, just given the number 7 jersey, certainly going nowhere, that leaves Nani as the odd man out, contract up for renewal, his stock is high and would bring in more money then either of the other two presumably

Eathrin

kryogen wrote: »

Im almost certain if Lucas is coming in Nani is off, Young was only bought last season, unlikely to be sold, Valencia is clearly the first choice winger, Fergie loves him, just given the number 7 jersey, certainly going nowhere, that leaves Nani as the odd man out, contract up for renewal, his stock is high and would bring in more money then either of the other two presumably

I just don't see the reasoning.
We're not going to get any more for Nani than we pay for Moura so why sell a Man Utd experienced player for an unproven one?

J. Marston

kryogen wrote: »

Paulo Freitas‏@Cynegeticus

S.Paulo's pres J.Juvêncio talked to 'Jovem Pan' and denied Lucas is leaving. His agent told the same to CBN & criticized Brit papers. #MUFC

Papers full of **** again so

Just when I had allowed myself a smidgen of hope.

Fúck sake.

Eathrin

J. Marston wrote: »

Just when I had allowed myself a smidgen of hope.

Fúck sake.

Money is better spent elsewhere

Samich

J. Marston wrote: »

Just when I had allowed myself a smidgen of hope.

Fúck sake.

I feel your pain

PhlegmyMoses

kryogen wrote: »

Paulo Freitas‏@Cynegeticus

S.Paulo's pres J.Juvêncio talked to 'Jovem Pan' and denied Lucas is leaving. His agent told the same to CBN & criticized Brit papers. #MUFC

Papers full of **** again so

Sgt. Pepper must have had a word.

ikeano29

Lucas looks like he has the potential to be one of the best in the world.;)

Giggsy11

Kagawa in 2008, playing for Osaka.

lordgoat

I feel so left out, so many people on here seem to be have matching Lucas play the last couple of seasons to be so sure of his 'potential'.

lordgoat

lordgoat wrote: »

I feel so left out, so many people on here seem to be have matching Lucas play the last couple of seasons to be so sure of his 'potential'.

Just seems huge money for an unproven youngster in a position that united don't need filling.

People on about Nani leaving, it could be argued that he is your best winger. Also versatile.

IamtheWalrus

Monday morning transfer news FAIL.

lordgoat

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just seems huge money for an unproven youngster in a position that united don't need filling.

People on about Nani leaving, it could be argued that he is your best winger. Also versatile.

Takes a rival team fan to point this out. Thanks rar!

There really are some clueless people in this thread at times. Nani is easily our best winger to want him replaced by a 19year old brazillian who i'd bet people haven't even see play one club match is idiocy. Idiocy.

IamtheWalrus

lordgoat wrote: »

Takes a rival team fan to point this out. Thanks rar!

There really are some clueless people in this thread at times. Nani is easily our best winger to want him replaced by a 19year old brazillian who i'd bet people haven't even see play one club match is idiocy. Idiocy.

Fergie has always been of the opinion that you can't not take up the option of buying young talent. He said it when Rooney came on the scene. Utd may not necessarily a particular player but they go for them because the player has the potential to be great. Same happened with Ronaldo.

nicklauski

The silly season is well under way alright.

How The Mirror can claim that a deal is done for Moura for 26m, after claiming that they wanted more than 32m for him is beyond me.

I really hope that all this talk is just to keep things away from a midfielder United are after.

Fergie said in his presser the other day that Arsenal released the fact that United had bid for RVP and "that's not how we do Business", so maybe something is happening in the background.

We live in hope.

MagicMarker

lordgoat wrote: »

Takes a rival team fan to point this out. Thanks rar!

There really are some clueless people in this thread at times. Nani is easily our best winger to want him replaced by a 19year old brazillian who i'd bet people haven't even see play one club match is idiocy. Idiocy.

Who has said that they want Nani replaced?

PhlegmyMoses

lordgoat wrote: »

Takes a rival team fan to point this out. Thanks rar!

There really are some clueless people in this thread at times. Nani is easily our best winger to want him replaced by a 19year old brazillian who i'd bet people haven't even see play one club match is idiocy. Idiocy.

People want signings. Some people just don't enjoy football if their team aren't making huge signings every summer. It's why they chose to support United instead of Villa or Everton or whatever. It's odd.

DM_7

Maybe SAF looked at last seasons attack and decided he didn't have enough ways to change a game or up the tempo.

City possibly have better attacking options than United - Nasri, Silva, Tevez, Aguero, Balotelli, Dzeko, YaYa provide more options, more danger than Uniteds set of players. They can play in differant ways and tactically have better options. We saw them going behind or drawing games and having ways not just to change the players but the way they played.

homer menstioned the stat about United not coming from behind last season. That says the option to change things up is gone. Uniteds only realy 'up a gear' option last season was to change a winger and change a striker. The way the team played wasn't really changed. Giggs and Scholes were needed a lot to try and dig us out of trouble last season.

after the City game at OT united went backwards, SAF even spoke about it, picking Jones and Carrick in midfield. He changed the tactics as we were open, he didn't like that openess so wouldn't go back to it, the side became rigid, SAF didn't wnat his midfield high up the field trying to set up attacks, leaving space at the back (this happened with Cleverley and Ando a lot).

kagawa is the first signing that allows a new option. Kag can allow a passing, moving game to be developed higher up the pitch. We won't have to rely on central midfield players to do it. Having kag allows central midfield players to stay back, hold position. He provided one new option. I thing SAF wants more players that provide new options and so United can play differant ways in attack.

I started tha above with maybe as its the ONLY reasoning I can come up with for our reported transfer targets.

IamtheWalrus

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

People want signings. Some people just don't enjoy football if their team aren't making huge signings every summer. It's why they chose to support United instead of Villa or Everton or whatever. It's odd.

It's understandable though. Signings are exciting. They offer the potential for team improvement and entertainment on the pitch.

sReq | uTeK

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

No no, it was an insult. You hadnt even entered the discussion upto then
Moura's contract is well known as its all over the web
You and everyone else cant possibly know that Hazard dumped you for lack of money, its just pure sour grapes speculation on you and your managers part because he dared to pick someone else, if he had signed then you would be gloating. Plus all 3 clubs agreed to pay the 32 million, so Utd obviously did think he was worth that money

Hazard and Lucas are 2 totally different transfers

Lucas's father owns so much of him so its ok for the players own father to be greedy but not Hazards agent? Double standard. Paying someone else 6 million or more is the same thing!
That is not ignorance, it is you and others ignoring the facts


http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/p6_72_15844_man-utd-told-to-pay-up-for-lucas-moura.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2174910/Lucas-Moura-30m-Manchester-United-bid-rejected-Sao-Paulo.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I'm just going to try and help you out here, I know you foam at the mouth a lot but this should hopefully clear things up for you.

Agent Fee - Something an Agent demands in return for negotiating the deal, it's something clubs have NO say in and is determined by the agent and the player involved.

Lucas/Father owns 20% the club Own 80%.
Now this part is very important so stay tuned THE CLUB is the SOLE entity in negotiating Lucas's fee, it has NOTHING to do with either player or father. whatever THE CLUB decide then lucas or his father will get a 20% share of that.

How is a CLUB demanding a specific fee for a player making that player or his 3rd party owners greedy, as you so put it.

I'm not here to bash you or chelsea, fair play for the signing of hazard, I think he will be good for you this year, but if you can't see that both these transfers are miles apart then I honestly think you're are a burger short of a happy meal.

PS: I hope we don't splash the cash being touted for lucas.

homerjay2005

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

People want signings. Some people just don't enjoy football if their team aren't making huge signings every summer. It's why they chose to support United instead of Villa or Everton or whatever. It's odd.

people want signings to improve the team so that we can challenge for honours and play nice attractive football that is befitting of the club we support.

last years performances were average to poor at most cases. less of your hyperbole nonsense.

Schism

So £26m for this 19 year old Brazilian lad?

If it's true he'd want to be as good as people are saying or both him and United will be hearing about it for years to come. If he's a flop it'd be like signing 3 (and a half ) Bebes!

Jax Teller

Saf confirmed we're interested in Lucas . No agreement yet though

Copper_pipe

@stevebartram1
Sir Alex Ferguson confirms that #MUFC are interested in Brazil international Lucas Moura, but denies that a deal has been agreed.

MagicMarker

Nothing new, I don't think it was ever in doubt that we were at least interested.

SlickRic

homerjay2005 wrote: »

last years performances were average to poor at most cases.

is this really the case?

yes, Europe was a farce by Utd's standards, fair enough.

but was the season really "average to poor" after ending on 89 points?

i struggle to get alongside that particular take on it.

IamtheWalrus

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Saf confirmed we're interested in Lucas . No agreement yet though

Sky Sports ‏@SkySports
Sir Alex Ferguson confirms Manchester United are in talks to sign Brazilian international Lucas Moura. Full story to follow...

TheTownie

SlickRic wrote: »

is this really the case?

yes, Europe was a farce by Utd's standards, fair enough.

but was the season really "average to poor" after ending on 89 points?

i struggle to get alongside that particular take on it.

Highly unlikely we would have got 89 points if we had gone further in Europe.

Although same logic could be applied to City.

rodgered

SlickRic wrote: »

is this really the case?

yes, Europe was a farce by Utd's standards, fair enough.

but was the season really "average to poor" after ending on 89 points?

i struggle to get alongside that particular take on it.

I agree, yes we were ****e in Europe but considering our injury list I think we done OK. Obviously the Everton and Wigan games were depressing and where we lost the league, but to get to the last two minutes and lose by a goal, I think its not the worse.

Really, only 2 minutes were the difference between a good league campaign and a ****e one

TheTownie

Mandy Henry ‏@MandyHenryMedia
SAF on Moura: "We haven't reached an agreement - we've shown interest.Until such time we reach an agreement we can't say he's ours" #mufc

Squad to play Cork City;

The MUFC Academy ‏@mrmujac
Squad to play Cork City (@alansmith90) Sutherland, Hendrie, Fornasier, McGinty, Giverin, James, Gladestony, Agnaldo, Charni, Januzaj 1/2

The MUFC Academy ‏@mrmujac
2/2 Lawrence, Barmby, Daehli, Love, Gorre, Rudge, King, Van Velzen, Robinson and Cole. A couple of Brazilians and an unknown James Robinson?

Chris Atkins ‏@Chris_Elastico
Gladstony and Agnaldo from Desportivo Brazil included in #MUFC squad to play Cork City via @alansmith90 /// @cynegeticus

homerjay2005

its very unusual for Fergie to be so upfront about targets, thats twice in a week that he has said we are in for a certain player.

i think thats encouraging and a statement of intent. i expect at least one new signing, but probably 2, within the next 2 or 3 weeks.

badly needed too.

IamtheWalrus

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its very unusual for Fergie to be so upfront about targets, thats twice in a week that he has said we are in for a certain player.

i think thats encouraging and a statement of intent. i expect at least one new signing, but probably 2, within the next 2 or 3 weeks.

badly needed too.

It is unusual. Maybe it's a new tactic that works for other clubs. Publicly announce your intentions and get the player unsettled.

homerjay2005

SlickRic wrote: »

is this really the case?

yes, Europe was a farce by Utd's standards, fair enough.

but was the season really "average to poor" after ending on 89 points?

i struggle to get alongside that particular take on it.

yes, alot of those 89 points were achieved by beating poor teams with average performances. we rarely put in a performance that left fans thinking wow, that was class. solid without being spectacular is how i would sum up our performances last summer and judging by the players we are trying to sign, i think fergie agrees with that to be honest.

only for scholes coming back and rooney scoring 30+ goals, last season would have been our worst for 20 years.

Copper_pipe

http://www.manutd.com/en/Tour2012Teaser/Tour2012News/2012/Jul/sir-alex-ferguson-confirms-interest-in-lucas-moura.aspx#

Boss denies Lucas deal is done

Sir Alex Ferguson has denied reports that United have agreed a deal to sign Sao Paulo winger Lucas Moura, but confirmed that he is interested in signing the Brazilian international.

The 19-year-old trickster, who is in Brazil's Olympics squad, has been tipped to move to Old Trafford for several weeks, but the boss batted back Sunday night's reports that the move was tied up.

"It's not correct," the United manager told a press conference in Shanghai. "We haven't reached an agreement for the player. We've shown an interest but until such time a we get a deal agreed we can't say he's our player."

Sir Alex confirmed that the club are exploring a variety of options, with a view to bringing in more than one player before the start of the 2012/13 season proper.

"We've signed two players in the summer: Kagawa and Powell," he said. "We think they both have fantastic potential.

"At this moment we're looking at other options in terms of bringing other players in. We're not lying on our backsides doing nothing. We're trying hard to bring other players to the club."

IamtheWalrus

homerjay2005 wrote: »

yes, alot of those 89 points were achieved by beating poor teams with average performances. we rarely put in a performance that left fans thinking wow, that was class. solid without being spectacular is how i would sum up our performances last summer and judging by the players we are trying to sign, i think fergie agrees with that to be honest.

only for scholes coming back and rooney scoring 30+ goals, last season would have been our worst for 20 years.

Agreed. The standards have dropped. Utd aren't an exciting team any more. The team needs freshening up and Fergie seems to be at least trying to.

chainsawman

I have a funny feeling that Rooney will be moving to Real Madrid in a shock transfer this month or next Month. Ronaldo probably egging on the owners to get him at all cost. Then United will be able to afford RVP wages demand. Sorry if i am boring you lots.

FutureGuy

chainsawman wrote: »

I have a funny feeling that Rooney will be moving to Real Madrid in a shock transfer this month or next Month. Ronaldo probably egging on the owners to get him at all cost. Then United will be able to afford RVP wages demand. Sorry if i am boring you lots.

Definately not boring but there isn't a hope of United selling Rooney to Madrid.

yabadabado

chainsawman wrote: »

I have a funny feeling that Rooney will be moving to Real Madrid in a shock transfer this month or next Month. Ronaldo probably egging on the owners to get him at all cost. Then United will be able to afford RVP wages demand. Sorry if i am boring you lots.

LOL

cast and wait,cast and wait.

Copper_pipe

chainsawman wrote: »

I have a funny feeling that Rooney will be moving to Real Madrid in a shock transfer this month or next Month. Ronaldo probably egging on the owners to get him at all cost. Then United will be able to afford RVP wages demand. Sorry if i am boring you lots.

Boring isnt the word