Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Jimmy Iovine

homerjay2005 wrote: »

mitch, are you able to provide the ratings for rooney for games in April and May from the voting?!

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

A low rating would hardly disprove my point that lots of United fans are unfairly harsh on Rooney.

You say some Utd fans are harsh on Rooney, who is supposedly one of the best players in the world on 200k a week, yet you have no problem calling Carrick a useless midfielder :P

GSPfan

I can't see why anyone would choose not to have RVP and Lucas. Everyone seems to think that all our strikers will be fit every game.
Sure we had Smalling, Vidic, Rio, Jones, Evans last season and we were lucky we had that many center backs. Johnny Evans was our best defender. He stepped up.
If Welbeck and Hernandez wanna play then let them earn it like Johnny Evans has. If RVP is in great form and Rooney isnt then drop Rooney. Simples. Rooney could do with competition for his place.

I definitely think that whatever Fergie is planning in terms of formations is a direct result of the batterings we took in Europe. I think he's gonna have two distinct systems. One for Europe and one for the league. Plenty of games means plenty of injuries and plenty of chances for every player.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

You say some Utd fans are harsh on Rooney, who is supposedly one of the best players in the world on 200k a week, yet you have no problem calling Carrick a useless midfielder :P

Carrick is a very poor cm for the level of top European competition. Rooney is an world class forward who just had a very good season. Those facts are obvious.

Did I say Rooney should be payed 200k a week? No I didn't. So why do you keep bringing up the money?

SilverFox261

I don't understand why everyone is trying to fit all the high priced players (if they are signed) into the team. I think that Lucas is not being signed to be a first XI player this season. IMO SAF is moving for him for the exact same reason he moved for Jones last season; others are showing interest and its either get him now or lose him to another club. The RVP bid for me sounds like a player who was too good to pass up so a value bid was made. I agree with others here who mentioned if a bidding war breaks out United won't stay involved.

They are all just options. Just because they have a large price tag doesn't mean the player must start. It just means if there is an injury, or a player is out of form, United won't be as short of options as they were last season. And as the stats showed, in the 8 games they went behind they failed to come back to win. I think all these signings just point to SAF trying to avoid this inability to find another gear from happening again.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick is a very poor cm for the level of top European competition. Rooney is an world class forward who just had a very good season. Those facts are obvious.

Did I say Rooney should be payed 200k a week? No I didn't. So why do you keep bringing up the money?

Because if someone is on 200k a week you'd expect them to do more than to be so poor to be subbed again Wigan.

Samich

Does anyone have the possession stats from last season?

MagicMarker

Samich wrote: »

Because if someone is on 200k a week you'd expect them to do more than to be so poor to be subbed again Wigan.

How many times has Rooney been subbed for performance related reasons in the last few years? Would you even use all your fingers to count them?

Pro. F

GSPfan wrote: »

I can't see why anyone would choose not to have RVP and Lucas. Everyone seems to think that all our strikers will be fit every game.
Sure we had Smalling, Vidic, Rio, Jones, Evans last season and we were lucky we had that many center backs. Johnny Evans was our best defender. He stepped up.
If Welbeck and Hernandez wanna play then let them earn it like Johnny Evans has. If RVP is in great form and Rooney isnt then drop Rooney. Simples. Rooney could do with competition for his place.

I definitely think that whatever Fergie is planning in terms of formations is a direct result of the batterings we took in Europe. I think he's gonna have two distinct systems. One for Europe and one for the league. Plenty of games means plenty of injuries and plenty of chances for every player.

People would choose to not have RVP and Lucas because it's a waste of money and there are two other areas of the pitch which are badly in need of fixing.

If we buy Lucas and RVP. And then went out and bought Higuaín, Benzema, Aguero, Di Maria and Pedro, would you still say to let Welbeck and Hernandez earn their place? Would you still say that there would be plenty of games to go around?

I have taken it to an extreme in that example only to prove the point: There is a point at which there are too many players and the players who are pushed out will not have a chance to prove themselves. You are not even acknowledging that that point exists.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Because if someone is on 200k a week you'd expect them to do more than to be so poor to be subbed again Wigan.

So players who earn 200k should never have even one bad performance... lol

Samich

How many seasons have we had the CM problem now?

It hasn't effected us if we look at results. The table shows us we lost the league on goal difference. Maybe Fergie sees the midfield as good enough to do the job/.

DM_7

To be fair calling Carrick very poor (at top euro competition) is proving Samich's point.

I can understand the opinion he is not top tier. But he is way above very poor. He is not even poor. He is adequate for European competition. Well respected by team mates and reportedly by the opposition. Just because he may not be xavi it doesn't mean he is very poor (again at top euro level).

Maybe look at his record in european competition. He started the 08 final, 09 final and 11 finals. So he must be pretty good (way above very poor) at euro level if he got that far.

Imo he was good enough to play for either team in the 10 final or chelsea in the 12 final.

IamtheWalrus

SilverFox261 wrote: »

IMO SAF is moving for him for the exact same reason he moved for Jones last season; others are showing interest and its either get him now or lose him to another club. The RVP bid for me sounds like a player who was too good to pass up so a value bid was made. I agree with others here who mentioned if a bidding war breaks out United won't stay involved.

Agreed.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

So players who earn 200k should never have even one bad performance... lol

It wasn't one bad performance......lol

He was up against the might of Gary Caldwell and got substituted.
He was poor against City too, trying to get Kompany booked if I remember too.

GSPfan

Pro. F wrote: »

People would choose to not have RVP and Lucas because it's a waste of money and there are two other areas of the pitch which are badly in need of fixing.

If we buy Lucas and RVP. And then went out and bought Higuaín, Benzema, Aguero, Di Maria and Pedro, would you still say to let Welbeck and Hernandez earn their place? Would you still say that there would be plenty of games to go around?

I have taken it to an extreme in that example only to prove the point: There is a point at which there are too many players and the players who are pushed out will not have a chance to prove themselves. You are not even acknowledging that that point exists.

How are there too many players tho? Berbatov will be gone. Michael Owen is gone. Park was sold. Gibson was sold last year. Pogba is gone. Thats 5 players. So if we add Kagawa Lucas RVP and a returning Scholes from last year then surely we are 1 overall player down from last year? Correct me if i'm wrong?

If Fergie wanted a central midfielder then he would buy one! He doesn't want one or can't find one he wants. Why should he stop buying other players when they become available just because he cant find a central midfielder.

Also, there are a maximum of two central midfield positions.
We have Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher, Giggs. Yes i know the story with some of these names being **** or injured or sick but in terms of numbers that area is crowded. So how come your logic doesnt apply here?

I agree we need top quality central midfielders. But I think we also need quality up front and on the wings too.

Pro. F

DM-ICE wrote: »

To be fair calling Carrick very poor (at top euro competition) is proving Samich's point.

I can understand the opinion he is not top tier. But he is way above very poor. He is not even poor. He is adequate for European competition. Well respected by team mates and reportedly by the opposition. Just because he may not be xavi it doesn't mean he is very poor (again at top euro level).

Maybe look at his record in european competition. He started the 08 final, 09 final and 11 finals. So he must be pretty good (way above very poor) at euro level if he got that far.

Imo he was good enough to play for either team in the 10 final or chelsea in the 12 final.

The fact that he gets his game for a club that competes in the top tier does not prove that he is good at that level. Sure look at Van Bommel for example. He is absolutely muck and he has a CL winners medal, Primera Liga, Seria A and a few Bundisligas. It is possible for substandard players to be carried in good teams.

Chelsea have a poor central midfield as well, so being able to get his game for them wouldn't prove anything. Also in the 08 final, as soon as Scholes went off we lost the midfield battle and were hanging on for the rest of the game. Again proving that Carrick has huge limitations when in possession.

The United teams that Carrick has played in have mostly been fantastic in every position other than his. VDS was the best goalie in the world. Vidic and Ferdinand were the best centre back pairing in the world by miles. Evra used to be world class. Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo were as good a forward line as any on the planet when United won the CL.

Samich wrote: »

How many seasons have we had the CM problem now?

It hasn't effected us if we look at results. The table shows us we lost the league on goal difference. Maybe Fergie sees the midfield as good enough to do the job/.

You don't know that it hasn't affected the results. There is no way you could know that results would not have been better with a different central midfield.

Samich wrote: »

It wasn't one bad performance......lol

He was up against the might of Gary Caldwell and got substituted.

I asked you why you kept mentioning his wages and you sighted the Wigan game. If you weren't talking about just one performance than you shouldn't have mentioned just the one performance.

And you are still mentioning the Wigan performance here as if it proves your point. Your thought process is so all over the shop it's ridiculous.

Samich wrote: »

He was poor against City too, trying to get Kompany booked if I remember too.

You remember wrong and you don't have a clue. He played very well against City; he was completely unsupported up front and he did excellent work inspite of that.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

The fact that he gets his game for a club that competes in the top tier does not prove that he is good at that level. Sure look at Van Bommel for example. He is absolutely muck and he has a CL winners medal, Primera Liga, Seria A and a few Bundisligas. It is possible for substandard players to be carried in good teams.

Chelsea have a poor central midfield as well, so being able to get his game for them wouldn't prove anything. Also in the 08 final, as soon as Scholes went off we lost the midfield battle and were hanging on for the rest of the game. Again proving that Carrick has huge limitations when in possession.

The United teams that Carrick has played in have mostly been fantastic in every position other than his. VDS was the best goalie in the world. Vidic and Ferdinand were the best centre back pairing in the world by miles. Evra used to be world class. Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo were as good a forward line as any on the planet when United won the CL.



You don't know that it hasn't affected the results. There is no way you could know that results would not have been better with a different central midfield.



I asked you why you kept mentioning his wages and you sighted the Wigan game. If you weren't talking about just one performance than you shouldn't have mentioned just the one performance.

And you are still mentioning the Wigan performance here as if it proves your point. Your thought process is so all over the shop it's ridiculous.



You remember wrong and you don't have a clue. He played very well against City; he was completely unsupported up front and he did excellent work inspite of that.

Sorry, but he was terrible.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

How many seasons have we had the CM problem now?

It hasn't effected us if we look at results. The table shows us we lost the league on goal difference. Maybe Fergie sees the midfield as good enough to do the job/.

Its a relevance thing, in domestic terms United get away with the centre of the field being so weak most games becuase of the brilliance in the other areas and the general ****ness of teams in England. This is even beginning to change however and the team was outplayed a fair few times last year, and I dont just mean the likes of City!

In Europe it is exposed and it is plain for all to see that team cannot retain possession when pressure is put on them. Our European runs have been based on excellent defence with VDS Rio and Vida as a base, was there a better one in Europe in that time?

Going back to Ronaldo days the midfield was covered for because the game plan was, give the ball to Ronaldo and let him win a game. With him Rooney and Tevez we were excellent on the break, but were still not a dominant possession team.

To get to the level United need to be at there has got to be improvement in the centre of the team. Of course the squad is good enough to always be thereabouts in the league. That is not enough though, unless you are going forward you are going backward.

Mikeyt086

Against Wigan he was shocking, but how pathetic is it that NOT ONE OTHER PLAYER of Manchester United was able to stand up, tell Wayne to take 5, grab the game by the scruff of the neck and get us a win or a point? This is why I think Fergie wants Kagawa, Moura and RVP. No other team relies on their star as much as we do. Wayne needs more help.

He was all we relied on from a creative and attacking point of view. When he played well, the team played well. When he was poor the team played like absolute ****. He played about 15 games that were poor I think, and of those, he came away with 2+ goals in some of them. If Wayne Rooney is not involved somewhere in a Manchester United goal, it is truly a rare occasion.

He was over-worked, like that kid on your U-13 team who was absolutely class and your manager often told you to just "Give ______ the ball." Too many Man United players in the past have been happy to just give Wayne the ball and see what happens.

Talk of selling Wayne Rooney pops up every couple of months, but soon goes away as the club have absolutely no intention of letting him play anywhere else. Rooney is the fulcrum of our team, and will remain so for the foreseeable future. The possible arrival of RVP should be bring comments like "OMG Rooney & RVP" instead of RVP in, Rooney out. That's all in my opinion obviously, not trying to put down anyone engaging in the debate.

To say Rooney was crap again City, while true, is unfair. Put Kompany and Lescott in a 2v1 against any attacker in the world and they will look bad, which is what happened to Wayne, utterly abandoned up front.

Donnielighto

GSPfan wrote: »

How are there too many players tho? Berbatov will be gone. Michael Owen is gone. Park was sold. Gibson was sold last year. Pogba is gone. Thats 5 players. So if we add Kagawa Lucas RVP and a returning Scholes from last year then surely we are 1 overall player down from last year? Correct me if i'm wrong?

Big difference between not playing Owen and not playing either of the young lads, macheda might be back as well.

GSPfan wrote: »

Also, there are a maximum of two central midfield positions.
We have Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher, Giggs. Yes i know the story with some of these names being **** or injured or sick but in terms of numbers that area is crowded. So how come your logic doesnt apply here?

You know the story Scholes cant play 90 mins, giggs is finished as is Fletch more than likely, that leaves Carrick, Ando, Cleverly and Powell not exactly an embarrassment of riches.

GSPfan wrote: »

I agree we need top quality central midfielders. But I think we also need quality up front and on the wings too.

:eek:

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

It wasn't one bad performance......lol

He was up against the might of Gary Caldwell and got substituted.
He was poor against City too, trying to get Kompany booked if I remember too.

The example you gave was one performance though, anybody can have a poor performance.

Playing badly against Wigan does not mean someone should be sold

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

The example you gave was one performance though, anybody can have a poor performance.

Playing badly against Wigan does not mean someone should be sold

I gave the Wigan one as it's the one which stood out, he was shocking in a lot. His passing was awful in a good few matches.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

I gave the Wigan one as it's the one which stood out, he was shocking in a lot. His passing was awful in a good few matches.

I agree he was poorer in general play overall last year then he ever has been imo, but he still got the goals and was certainly not the worst offender in any of the games you could mention.

United have two match winners, Rooney and Nani, if either doesn't play well or doesn't play full stop, the team struggles, bringing in the likes of Kagawa to help out there can only be a good thing, but selling one of our two best attacking options should not be considered right now.

Players should be brought in to compliment these players and to help with the burden of carrying an underperforming teammate.

Samich

The team who wins is the team who scores more goals than the other team. Our defence is good, so that leaves our attackers.

Midfield doesn't win the game, it's what you do with the ball. Also counter attack is where the most danger is so midfield is bypassed generally here anyways.

Pro. F

GSPfan wrote: »

How are there too many players tho? Berbatov will be gone. Michael Owen is gone. Park was sold. Gibson was sold last year. Pogba is gone. Thats 5 players. So if we add Kagawa Lucas RVP and a returning Scholes from last year then surely we are 1 overall player down from last year? Correct me if i'm wrong?

If Fergie wanted a central midfielder then he would buy one! He doesn't want one or can't find one he wants. Why should he stop buying other players when they become available just because he cant find a central midfielder.

Also, there are a maximum of two central midfield positions.
We have Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher, Giggs. Yes i know the story with some of these names being **** or injured or sick but in terms of numbers that area is crowded. So how come your logic doesnt apply here?

I agree we need top quality central midfielders. But I think we also need quality up front and on the wings too.

You are mentioning players leaving that were miles down the pecking order (Owen) and were from a different position (Pogba and Gibson).

As it stands now, assuming that Kagawa is played behind the centre forward, we have:

Strikers: Rooney, Kagawa, Welbeck, Hernandez - That's just the right number. Fergie has always gone with four strikers and it as always worked. Kagawa playing behind the centre forward would mean he can be classed as a striker for the sake of working out how many players we have.

Then Cleverley, Powell and Anderson can also fill the role just behind the striker if needed too.

Wingers: Nani, Valencia, Young and Giggs - just a bit short here when you consider how old Giggs is, but both Kag and Welbeck can play well out wide and those games would be needed to go around for them.

In central midfield we have Scholes (too old), Giggs (too old to start and not very good in that position), Carrick (we could do much better than him imo), Cleverley (injury prone), Anderson (injury prone) and Powell (very young but I suspect he will be good enough to be demanding games). Fletcher can not be counted as he is out long term with a serious illness. So that's six players, two of which are very ready for retirement, two of which are very injury prone and the last one who is new to the club and 18. We could add Jones to that list as back-up for Carrick, as I think Fergie might use him that way. Jones is also poor on the ball like Carrick is, but more so. So there is a clear lack of quality in the defensive central midfield options and probably a lack of cover overall when you consider age and injury proneness.

If Fergie still can't find a central midfielder to improve on Carrick then there is something seriously wrong. If he really is considering spending that huge money on Lucas who we don't need, he could spend it instead on Javi Martinez would be awesome for us.

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

I agree he was poorer in general play overall last year then he ever has been imo, but he still got the goals and was certainly not the worst offender in any of the games you could mention.

United have two match winners, Rooney and Nani, if either doesn't play well or doesn't play full stop, the team struggles, bringing in the likes of Kagawa to help out there can only be a good thing, but selling one of our two best attacking options should not be considered right now.

Players should be brought in to compliment these players and to help with the burden of carrying an underperforming teammate.

It doesn't matter if he wasn't the worst, he's supposedly one of the best players in the world on 200k a week.

You'd surely expect better performances from him than someone on less than half his wages.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

If Fergie still can't find a central midfielder to improve on Carrick then there is something seriously wrong. If he really is considering spending that huge money on Lucas who we don't need, he could spend it instead on Javi Martinez would be awesome for us.

Maybe the Utd mentality is because of players like Carrick. He knows how to win.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Sorry, but he was terrible.

You are just repeating yourself now. Refer to this post.

Samich wrote: »

I gave the Wigan one as it's the one which stood out, he was shocking in a lot. His passing was awful in a good few matches.

It wasn't a good few matches. It was a few matches. Nothing more. Overall his season was excellent and he was one of the most consistent attacking players in the PL.

Samich wrote: »

The team who wins is the team who scores more goals than the other team. Our defence is good, so that leaves our attackers.

Midfield doesn't win the game, it's what you do with the ball. Also counter attack is where the most danger is so midfield is bypassed generally here anyways.

It is truly impressive how much of a clue you don't have about football.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Maybe the Utd mentality is because of players like Carrick. He knows how to win.

You think players like Vidic, Ferdinand, Scholes, Rooney, Valencia and Giggs don't have that United mentality? Mentality is important, but it can't make up for a deficit in skill.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

You are just repeating yourself now. Refer to this post.



It wasn't a good few matches. It was a few matches. Nothing more. Overall his season was excellent and he was one of the most consistent attacking players in the PL.



It is truly impressive how much of a clue you don't have about football.

Ha, likewise. You should take over from Fergie seeing as you know more about football than him

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

You think players like Vidic, Ferdinand, Scholes, Rooney, Valencia and Giggs don't have that United mentality? Mentality is important, but it can't make up for a deficit in skill.

We'd be well glad of Carrick if we had Anderson and Cleverley in midfield.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

It doesn't matter if he wasn't the worst, he's supposedly one of the best players in the world on 200k a week.

You'd surely expect better performances from him than someone on less than half his wages.

His wages are of absolutely no consequence to me, I expect good performances from everybody on the field, if it doesn't happen it is hardly down to their back pocket weighing them down too much to run around the field is it?

Rooney is one of the best players in the world, dunno why you keep saying supposedly, he is not at the level of Ronaldo or Messi, but sure who is?

I don't know why you are equating performance on the field with how much the player is paid so much, should we expect less of Valencia because he is not on as much money as Rooney? Vidic?

Regardless of how much a player is paid by the club, he should go out there and perform at a standard befitting Manchester United. It is foolish to think players will perform brilliantly in every single game if you pay them enough money


Edit: I should also point out that the only people who claim Rooney earns 200k a week are rags, since it seems so important though-

His salary is 8million a year which if you break it down weekly (which is not how footballers get paid anyway) is just over 150k (153,846)

GSPfan

Donnielighto wrote: »

Big difference between not playing Owen and not playing either of the young lads, macheda might be back as well.

You know the story Scholes cant play 90 mins, giggs is finished as is Fletch more than likely, that leaves Carrick, Ando, Cleverly and Powell not exactly an embarrassment of riches.

:eek:

Macheda will go on loan if we get RVP. Michael Owen would have played lots more games if he wasnt injured. If Welbeck and Chico are the two on the bench then they will get loads of games. Thats the point i'm making. Why are we worried about Welbeck and Chico being on the bench. So what.

Totally forgot about Powell. He's another player for central midfield. So thats 7. I know they all have their limitations but it was pointed out to me that we have too many people up front and we have no one in midfield. This was just a reply to that.

About the wingers...... I did say Quality. But yeah its not like we are stuck there. But i think Lucas Moura will end up more central to be honest in years to come.

yabadabado

Samich wrote: »

The team who wins is the team who scores more goals than the other team. Our defence is good, so that leaves our attackers.

Midfield doesn't win the game, it's what you do with the ball. Also counter attack is where the most danger is so midfield is bypassed generally here anyways.

WTF?
Are you serious?

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

His wages are of absolutely no consequence to me, I expect good performances from everybody on the field, if it doesn't happen it is hardly down to their back pocket weighing them down too much to run around the field is it?

Rooney is one of the best players in the world, dunno why you keep saying supposedly, he is not at the level of Ronaldo or Messi, but sure who is?

I don't know why you are equating performance on the field with how much the player is paid so much, should we expect less of Valencia because he is not on as much money as Rooney? Vidic?

Regardless of how much a player is paid by the club, he should go out there and perform at a standard befitting Manchester United. It is foolish to think players will perform brilliantly in every single game if you pay them enough money

Yes, of course money makes a difference.

Why do you think everyone is on different wages, better players get more.

Samich

yabadabado wrote: »

WTF?
Are you serious?

What bit don't you agree with?

Mikeyt086

Samich wrote: »

The team who wins is the team who scores more goals than the other team. Our defence is good, so that leaves our attackers.

Midfield doesn't win the game, it's what you do with the ball. Also counter attack is where the most danger is so midfield is bypassed generally here anyways.

Stunning.

I am actually stunned.

Samich

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Stunning.

I am actually stunned.

Ok.

Not too easy score when there's 11 players behind the ball?

As I said already, maybe Fergie sees the midfield as good enough to do the job. Anyone who says our midfield lost us the league can be answered with our strikers didn't score enough goals.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

Yes, of course money makes a difference.

Why do you think everyone is on different wages, better players get more.

I'll reduce this to a simple question since anything else appears too difficult

Is it ok when Messi has a bad game?

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

I'll reduce this to a simple question since anything else appears too difficult

Is it ok when Messi has a bad game?

Yeah, one game. I don't recall Messi ever playing ****e incidentally.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

We'd be well glad of Carrick if we had Anderson and Cleverley in midfield.

Neither Anderson nor Cleverley are reliable enough defensively so it is a problem when they play as a pair. However, Carrick is too much the other way. In that he is only good defensively and he is poor in possession. We need a proper defensive central midfielder who is reliable defensively, but also good enough in possession to help out when the opposition are pressing. We need that player to play beside the likes of Cleverley, Scholes, Anderson and Powell (making an assumption here that Powell is that kind of creative CM).

Samich wrote: »

...You should take over from Fergie seeing as you know more about football than him

Congratulations. You have just used the most idiotic and pointless line of argument possible on a football discussion forum.

GSPfan

I think Ferguson has a blind spot when it comes to the Center of Midfield. I really do. I think we just have to accept that. Every manager will have something even the most devote fans will disagree with.

I just dont think anyone should be anything other than happy with us buying two Top drawer players at opposite ends of their careers. One is the finished article and one is potentially brilliant.

If Javi Martinez showed any interest in coming to us I'm sure Fergie would have tried to get him. I'm of the opinion that both RVP and Lucas Moura would like to sign for us and thats why we are after them.

I bet you Fergie has a list of central midfielders he would like but if none of them want to come then he doesn't just buy anyone for the sake of it. Which I tend to agree with.

CSF

Samich wrote: »

Ok.

Not too easy score when there's 11 players behind the ball?

As I said already, maybe Fergie sees the midfield as good enough to do the job. Anyone who says our midfield lost us the league can be answered with our strikers didn't score enough goals.

This is a baffling overly simplistic view of football that I just can't get my head around.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

Neither Anderson nor Cleverley are reliable enough defensively so it is a problem when they play as a pair. However, Carrick is too much the other way. In that he is only good defensively and he is poor in possession. We need a proper defensive central midfielder who is reliable defensively, but also good enough in possession to help out when the opposition are pressing. We need that player to play beside the likes of Cleverley, Scholes, Anderson and Powell (making an assumption here that Powell is that kind of creative CM).



Congratulations. You have just used the most idiotic and pointless line of argument possible on a football discussion forum.

I don't think Busquets is amazing in possession, gives the ball to Xavi. Maybe you should concentrate more on Andersons lack of ability in possession, or Cleverley?

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

Yeah, one game. I don't recall Messi ever playing ****e incidentally.

Whether you recall it or not it has happened.

He is allowed just one poor performance a year? ??

Ah you know what, I give up.

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

Whether you recall it or not it has happened.

He is allowed just one poor performance a year? ??

Ah you know what, I give up.

Hmm don't see why I'm cutting all the flack. Some other poster said he was bad in about 10/15 games, which is over 25% of the time.

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

The fact that he gets his game for a club that competes in the top tier does not prove that he is good at that level. Sure look at Van Bommel for example. He is absolutely muck and he has a CL winners medal, Primera Liga, Seria A and a few Bundisligas. It is possible for substandard players to be carried in good teams.

Chelsea have a poor central midfield as well, so being able to get his game for them wouldn't prove anything. Also in the 08 final, as soon as Scholes went off we lost the midfield battle and were hanging on for the rest of the game. Again proving that Carrick has huge limitations when in possession.

The United teams that Carrick has played in have mostly been fantastic in every position other than his. VDS was the best goalie in the world. Vidic and Ferdinand were the best centre back pairing in the world by miles. Evra used to be world class. Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo were as good a forward line as any on the planet when United won the CL.

I'm not debating Carricks ability with you, Firstly there is no point, secondly it wasn't the point I was making.

I was commenting on this:

Samich wrote: »

You say some Utd fans are harsh on Rooney, who is supposedly one of the best players in the world on 200k a week, yet you have no problem calling Carrick a useless midfielder

You are really harsh on Carrick so I totally get how Samich would make the above comment when it comes to your comments about others being harsh on Rooney.

Pots and Kettles.

EDIT: I think you are incredibly Harsh on Carrick, I actually agree that others are harsh on Rooney.

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

I don't think Busquets is amazing in possession, gives the ball to Xavi. Maybe you should concentrate more on Andersons lack of ability in possession, or Cleverley?

Busqets is amazing in possession, he is pretty much amazing in every facet of the role he plays in fact.

Not surprising you don't see that though

Ah Busquets, as much as I hate him he really would be perfect for the club

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

Hmm don't see why I'm cutting all the flack. Some other poster said he was bad in about 10/15 games, which is over 25% of the time.

Your catching the flack as you are trying to make an argument that simply cannot be made, players will go through bad spells or have bad performances, they are not machines and you have to accept that.

I dont have any issue with you saying he was poor in a few games, he was! And this season gone I felt his overall play had dropped a level, no issue with any of that. Simply saying he gets paid 150k a week so he should be brilliant all the time is a nonsense argument, sorry you said 200k

Also, I am not trying to give you flack, I have tried to illustrate where I disagree with what you say, nothing personal.

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

Busqets is amazing in possession, he is pretty much amazing in every facet of the role he plays in fact.

Not surprising you don't see that though

Ah Busquets, as much as I hate him he really would be perfect for the club

He gives the ball to Xavi, just like Carrick gives the ball to Scholes.