Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Pro. F

Adamcp898 wrote: »

This. If indeed we were to end up paying £30 million for this kid, and Modric was to leave for £35 million to Madrid, I'd be a little miffed we didn't stump up the extra, even though our price for Modric is probably a little higher given we're English.

Or put in a €32m bid for Javi Martinez. Far less of a risk and far more of the type of player we actually need.

Donnielighto

Pro. F wrote: »

Or put in a €32m bid for Javi Martinez. Far less of a risk and far more of the type of player we actually need.

Why bother, Carrick is pretty damn solid back there.

Pro. F

Donnielighto wrote: »

Why bother, Carrick is pretty damn solid back there.

Ah don't get me started.

kryogen

Resist the urge

I really do think we should at least test Bilbao about Martinez and see if he would come, it makes sense on so many levels!

FutureGuy

haiii.

No news here. Other than I like my shinyShinji new sig!

Whatsisname

I don't like all this "but we can recoup some of the transfer fee in a few years" kinda talk, I thought we wanted players who are loyal and committed to staying at United and love the club, rather than someone who'll want to **** off to Madrid/Barca in a few years, or maybe its just me..

kryogen

Whatsisname wrote: »

I don't like all this "but we can recoup some of the transfer fee in a few years" kinda talk, I thought we wanted players who are loyal and committed to staying at United and love the club, rather than someone who'll want to **** off to Madrid/Barca in a few years, or maybe its just me..

That is a fan ideal yeah, but a football reality is, that players do not always want to or have to want to stay at the club for the whole career as long as they give their all while they are there.

The bit about recouping the fee for a player like Lucas is more to do with, even if he doesnt work out the club should still get a fair chunk back if they want to sell him in a few years time, not even necessarily if he wants to leave. Just if the club want to move him on.

I'd have Ronaldo back in a heartbeat and he can pine for Madrid all he wants as long as he gives 100% to the jersey. Can't expect players with no actual ties to the club to love it, be loyal to it etc, it is even more ludicrous as the club will get shot of a player foregoing all loyalty if it feels the player is not up to the job.

Pj!

I think this will get sorted alright.

Reports that Moura told his agent today (Tuesday) to keep talking to United.

Plus Sao Paolo seem keen. They went out of their way to speak well of Utd and welcome them back to the table.


United seem to be the only ones bidding so obviously have a strong hand in negotiation. Hopefully though it all works out.



These agents are a real pain. They need some sort of change in the system. Let FIFA or an independent body deal with all transfers.

tvercetti

kryogen wrote: »

Resist the urge

I really do think we should at least test Bilbao about Martinez and see if he would come, it makes sense on so many levels!

Out of interest Kryo, if Utd sign Javi, what would be your first choice CM partnership, assuming theres a front 4 of Shinji, Nani, Rooney and Tony.

I always saw Martinez playing the Carrick role and personally I would rather Utd signed someone to replace Scholes.

I'm not trying to imply Carrick and Martinez couldn't be a successful partnership. Just interested how you see it.

kryogen

Pj! wrote: »

I think this will get sorted alright.

Reports that Moura told his agent today (Tuesday) to keep talking to United.

Plus Sao Paolo seem keen. They went out of their way to speak well of Utd and welcome them back to the table.


United seem to be the only ones bidding so obviously have a strong hand in negotiation. Hopefully though it all works out.

These agents are a real pain. They need some sort of change in the system. Let FIFA or an independent body deal with all transfers.

Reports have been going around to let people know Lucas would be happy to go to United, and also that he would be just as happy to stay.

United are the only team able to get near the money they are looking for, the other serious team is Inter who can't afford the fee.

Eathrin

Thing about Martinez though...isn't he more of a Central Defender these days?
Like Phil Jones who can be deployed in either position.
Fantastic player though.

Donnielighto

tvercetti wrote: »

Out of interest Kryo, if Utd sign Javi, what would be your first choice CM partnership, assuming theres a front 4 of Shinji, Nani, Rooney and Tony.

I always saw Martinez playing the Carrick role and personally I would rather Utd signed someone to replace Scholes.

I'm not trying to imply Carrick and Martinez couldn't be a successful partnership. Just interested how you see it.

Martinez and cleverly/ando, might get a half a season out of each

kryogen

tvercetti wrote: »

Out of interest Kryo, if Utd sign Javi, what would be your first choice CM partnership, assuming theres a front 4 of Shinji, Nani, Rooney and Tony.

I always saw Martinez playing the Carrick role and personally I would rather Utd signed someone to replace Scholes.

I'm not trying to imply Carrick and Martinez couldn't be a successful partnership. Just interested how you see it.

I would be happy to see Cleverley beside him, Scholes obviously, Anderson could recapture some of the form he had when sharing the midfield with Hargreaves maybe? Guess we need to see how Powell will progress too.

I guess my first choice in a 2 man midfield would be

Javi Martinez

---

Scholes

Given the amount of time Scholes can play though I would think Ando and Clev would be filling the role a lot. For big away games or European games it could be

----Javi Martinez/Carrick----Scholes/Carrick/Clev/Ando
Valencia

---

Kagawa

---

Nani

---

Rooney

---

Or a Barca system of

---

Javi Martinez

---

---

Scholes

---

Clev

---

Could slip Kagawa in there actually too, the signing of Martinez really opens up loads of options for the team and the shape

Shame really

tvercetti

Eathrin wrote: »

Thing about Martinez though...isn't he more of a Central Defender these days?
Like Phil Jones who can be deployed in either position.
Fantastic player though.

Big difference between Jones and Martinez playing central midfield though, Martinez is more composed, better vision and passing. I think Jones could progress into been a superior centre back but find it hard to ever see him ever be as good as Martinez in midfield.

kryogen

Eathrin wrote: »

Thing about Martinez though...isn't he more of a Central Defender these days?
Like Phil Jones who can be deployed in either position.
Fantastic player though.

Biesla was the one to put him to defence and it is largely due to a tactical thing rather then thinking he was better there. He touches the ball more then any Bilbao player on average, he starts so many of the attacks from his position and is utilised very well there by Bielsa, he is not a typical centre back, he does the job very well though. It is more to do with the style of the team then a strict position per se

tvercetti

kryogen wrote: »

I would be happy to see Cleverley beside him, Scholes obviously, Anderson could recapture some of the form he had when sharing the midfield with Hargreaves maybe? Guess we need to see how Powell will progress too.

I guess my first choice in a 2 man midfield would be

Javi Martinez

---

Scholes

Given the amount of time Scholes can play though I would think Ando and Clev would be filling the role a lot. For big away games or European games it could be

----Javi Martinez/Carrick----Scholes/Carrick/Clev/Ando
Valencia

---

Kagawa

---

Nani

---

Rooney

---

Or a Barca system of

---

Javi Martinez

---

---

Scholes

---

Clev

---

Could slip Kagawa in there actually too, the signing of Martinez really opens up loads of options for the team and the shape

Shame really

It does open up a lot of possibilities and could be the move that suits Ando and Clev the most too. The signing of a direct Scholes replacement could really end there future at Utd. But over the space of 90 minutes against the biggest teams, I would be more confident in a

---

Carrick

---

Modric

---

Valencia

---

Kagawa

---

Nani

---

Rooney

---

Still would love to see Martinez sign, or any established CM for that matter.

kryogen

Really? What do you think Carrick brings to the team that would not be brought by Martinez?

I understand the need to replace Scholes in the first 11, but that person may already be at the club and I would not like to see anybody signed there just yet. Give Clev the time to show if its him, may as well give Ando one more shot too sure

Edit: With the addition of Kag a lot of the central creative issue should be solved leading to less pressure being on Scholes to carry that mantle.

Samich

The need to replace Scholes is faaaaaaaaaaar greater than the need to replace Carrick. All I see are Carrick replacements being mentioned. Anyways Scholes was always popping up in the box years ago so we don't always have to be looking at players who enter the final third as a poor replacement for Scholes.

tvercetti

kryogen wrote: »

Really? What do you think Carrick brings to the team that would not be brought by Martinez?

I understand the need to replace Scholes in the first 11, but that person may already be at the club and I would not like to see anybody signed there just yet. Give Clev the time to show if its him, may as well give Ando one more shot too sure

Martinez brings so much more but I would prioritise the Scholes position.

Alot of PL team let Utd dictate the tempo and try steal a goal which suits Utd but we look so lost when the opposition comes out and ups the tempo and goes for it like Bilbao and other European teams did. Thats why I would prioritise the Scholes position. Someone who controls it from deep like Xabi Alonso, Modric and Pirlo. I think a player of quality in that position would take the emphasis off Carrick too and probably bring out the best in him. I'm worried while waiting for Clev or Ando to come good, we would fall further behind the other big teams.

Still unsure about Clev, still optimistic bout Ando though.

kryogen

Someone who sits and controls things deep, with a good range of passing and is capable of getting forward at times with an eye for goal?

Luckily Martinez also fits that description

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

The need to replace Scholes is faaaaaaaaaaar greater than the need to replace Carrick. All I see are Carrick replacements being mentioned. Anyways Scholes was always popping up in the box years ago so we don't always have to be looking at players who enter the final third as a poor replacement for Scholes.

Theres the major issue, Scholes now is a very very different player to Scholes a long time ago.

Kagawa is kind of like a Scholes of years ago, Martinez would be more like a Scholes now.

He is an all rounder

tvercetti

kryogen wrote: »

Someone who sits and controls things deep, with a good range of passing and is capable of getting forward at times with an eye for goal?

Luckily Martinez also fits that description

Martinez is quality but I don't think he controls the tempo of the game in the same way as Xabi, Scholes, Sahin, Pirlo and Modric. He likes the game at a particular tempo, the others are more capable of altering the tempo IMO.

Pro. F

tvercetti wrote: »

Martinez is quality but I don't think he controls the tempo of the game in the same way as Xabi, Scholes, Sahin, Pirlo and Modric. He likes the game at a particular tempo, the others are more capable of altering the tempo IMO.

All those players don't control the tempo on their own. They all have good defensive central midfielders beside them who are good on the ball (well not Modric, but that is part of why Spurs aren't that good). Just replacing Scholes won't fix the United midfield's lack of control. And there is already an excellent Scholes replacement at the club in Cleverley. Plus Anderson and Powell as options in that role too.

Think of it this way, Martinez is twice the player Carrick is when in possession. That improvement would help the midfield hugely in controlling and using possession. Modric isn't twice as good in possession as Cleverley and Cleverley is only young yet.

Samich

So Scott Parker, isn't even "good" now? Not even good.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

So Scott Parker, isn't even "good" now? Not even good.

"Good" is very open to interpretation and dependant on context. He is good compared to me. He is utter shíte compared to most top European central midfielders.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

"Good" is very open to interpretation and dependant on context. He is good compared to me. He is utter shíte compared to most top European central midfielders.

How many top european central midfielders are there though, there are a lot of top european teams.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

How many top european central midfielders are there though, there are a lot of top european teams.

There are heaps of top European central midfielders. And Parker is shíte in comparison to them. Just like the majority of English CMs are.

Edit: just to be clear what level I'm talking about, I mean the bigger clubs in Europe.

tvercetti

Pro. F wrote: »

All those players don't control the tempo on their own. They all have good defensive central midfielders beside them who are good on the ball (well not Modric, but that is part of why Spurs aren't that good). Just replacing Scholes won't fix the United midfield's lack of control. And there is already an excellent Scholes replacement at the club in Cleverley. Plus Anderson and Powell as options in that role too.

Think of it this way, Martinez is twice the player Carrick is when in possession. That improvement would help the midfield hugely in controlling and using possession. Modric isn't twice as good in possession as Cleverley and Cleverley is only young yet.

I see where your coming from but I don't rate Cleverley as high as you, its very likely he will prove me wrong, but thats where I stand.

For that simple reason, I would prioritise a Scholes replacement, its just a difference in opinion.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

There are heaps of top European central midfielders. And Parker is shíte in comparison to them. Just like the majority of English CMs are.

Edit: just to be clear what level I'm talking about, I mean the bigger clubs in Europe.

There may be but there's no guarantee they'd see Utd as a bigger club than the one they're at.

Do you think it's easier to replace Scholes or Carrick? You seem to want to replace Carrick to aid the Scholes replacement rather than looking at the more difficult task (replacing Scholes)

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

There may be but there's no guarantee they'd see Utd as a bigger club than the one they're at.

Do you think it's easier to replace Scholes or Carrick? You seem to want to replace Carrick to aid the Scholes replacement rather than looking at the more difficult task (replacing Scholes)

There are players capable of the top European level that haven't been snapped up yet (Martinez, Fellaini, etc.) or are possibly gettable from the big club they are at (Las Diarra). Don't forget that Vidal went to Juve last year for only €12m. There are always players to be got.

I would say both positions are equally difficult to fill. But we have a ready replacement for Scholes at the club in Cleverley, who at the very least deserves a shot. The only back up for Carrick is Jones and he is poor on the ball too.

Samich

Was surprised to see Utd went to sign Fellaini before he signed for Everton, he rejected us.

tvercetti

Theres no basis to this opinion, maybe its his smile but I'm more optimistic about Ando than Clev.

Eathrin

tvercetti wrote: »

Theres no basis to this opinion, maybe its his smile but I'm more optimistic about Ando than Clev.

Ando has shown very little progression since his arrival,
Cleverley has massive potential and should fulfil it with enough game time.

Kylo Ren

A combination of being moved to a new position and injury after injury has stunted Andos development. Clev has showed potential but is going down the injury route too. At this stage I'd have more faith in Clev than Ando.

PhlegmyMoses

I think the positional thing with Anderson is overstated. The younger lads regularly play different positions at the start of their career before settling on one. Beckham was a central midfielder, Scholes a striker, Ronaldo a straight-forward winger, Fletch at right-wing.

It's the injuries that have killed Anderson before he could get going. Two major set-backs and then a load of niggly muscle injuries. He also quite clearly has a dubious attitude towards nutrition.

daveyboy_1ie

Are we still talking about the merits of Carrick in our midfield? Jeez, the sooner the season starts the better.

Looking forward to the friendly match today, will catch the first half on lunch at least.

Al Capwned

Just checked my usual recipe book for match days - Think I'll have the usual for lunch today.

Looking forward to it now, hopefully I'll get this poxy floor sorted by then and I can have lunch on time.....

Copper_pipe

Zenit are interested in Berbatov for 5 million

Source:Mirror

Copper_pipe

I think sau Paolo are pushing to get the deal done before august 1st , If its done before that date the club gets 80% of the fee and Lucas gets 20%, if its done after that date the fee gets split 70-30

Copper_pipe

If anyone will need a recipe later , you can PM me and I'll send you on one.

KO:13:00

donalg1

Copper_pipe wrote: »

I think sau Paolo are pushing to get the deal done before august 1st , If its done before that date the club gets 80% of the fee and Lucas gets 20%, if its done after that date the fee gets split 70-30

No wonder the agent wants to delay it. :rolleyes:

chainsawman

Eathrin wrote: »

Ando has shown very little progression since his arrival,
Cleverley has massive potential and should fulfil it with enough game time.

Watched him playing for Great Britain last Friday, nothing special from him, I liked him last year before he got bad injury, but after that he was not a player he used to be. Hopefully he will prove me wrong after few matches, Maybe he need few matches to get back where he should be. United need a midfielder who bites like Scholesy or Keano and Robson. Carrick a good player but bit too softie.

VW 1

donalg1 wrote: »

Copper_pipe wrote: »

I think sau Paolo are pushing to get the deal done before august 1st , If its done before that date the club gets 80% of the fee and Lucas gets 20%, if its done after that date the fee gets split 70-30

No wonder the agent wants to delay it. :rolleyes:

I can't imagine the agent will get paid differently regardless of the split in cash to SPFC and Lucas' father. The agent doesn't own any of Lucas so will probably get the same commission regardless of when the deal takes place.

martinr5232

VW 1 wrote: »

I can't imagine the agent will get paid differently regardless of the split in cash to SPFC and Lucas' father. The agent doesn't own any of Lucas so will probably get the same commission regardless of when the deal takes place.

I thought the father was his agent ??

Copper_pipe

martinr5232 wrote: »

I thought the father was his agent ??

He is

s_carnage

Copper_pipe wrote: »

If anyone will need a recipe later , you can PM me and I'll send you on one.

KO:13:00

Ahh bloody work have blocked that lovely L(ove)o(ur)F(ood) recipe site from work. Guess I'll just have to download a recipe on my phone.

Pj!

Is there a press conference before or after the game today?

Be very interesting to see what Fergie says about Moura.

grames_bond

I doubt he will be pushed into commenting again - will probably make a brief stock statement along the lines of "we do have an interest in the boy boy there have been no developments"


finally get to actually watch a pre season game, well the first half anyway! in work and I'll be having lunch so any recipies would be greatly appreciated!

Copper_pipe

grames_bond wrote: »

I doubt he will be pushed into commenting again - will probably make a brief stock statement along the lines of "we do have an interest in the boy boy there have been no developments"


finally get to actually watch a pre season game, well the first half anyway! in work and I'll be having lunch so any recipies would be greatly appreciated!

I should be ready to serve around 12:45

sReq | uTeK

Samich wrote: »

The need to replace Scholes is faaaaaaaaaaar greater than the need to replace Carrick. All I see are Carrick replacements being mentioned. Anyways Scholes was always popping up in the box years ago so we don't always have to be looking at players who enter the final third as a poor replacement for Scholes.

Sometimes I think you're on crack, it's not far greater, clev and even ando showed in spurts last season that they MAY have the capability to be scholes esque add to that powell coming through there is ample time to wait and see if one of these can progress into that role without spending £35 million.

Carrick has NO replacement that can do his role, bar maybe Phil Jones who hasn't done it all that well in the few games it's been asked of him, Carrick is fine at what he does but hes approaching 32, there is no backup for him, his distribution of the ball in Europe is not what it is in the premiership, while I don't agree with all who say he's terrible under pressure he's just a tad limited and can't create the space he needs via quick turn/touch here or there.

So to answer your question, replacing someone who has NO backup in the team or replacing someone who can still cut it for half a season here or there with 3 possible stand in's...I know what I'd be choosing.

Also Carrick would still get game time, but in those big big European games where we need someone to come looking for the ball off the defence get a quick turn in and distribute it to kags / schooles, martinez is our man not modric.,