Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

mufcboy1999

Speaking of Madrid , I really do hope we get them in Europe this year !. It's been too long and it's always been a personal favourite fixture of mine. I honestly think they could destroy us like barca and Bilbao but it would be great too see ronaldo return.

As far as a rivalry , it's not fierce and from what I can gather there's a pretty good relationship between Madrid fans and uniteds at least through Facebook due to the recent player history of us being a feeder club to them

Jimmy Iovine

Now that we have the "Michael f*cking Carrick" thread I hope I never see his name mentioned in here again unless it's in a team sheet for a match. The last few pages have been horrific.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

I want Scholes replaced.

Cleverley is no Scholes, Anderson is no Scholes. Never seen Cleverley even try a 50 yard pass.

There is nothing wrong with Cleverley's passing. You haven't seen him try many long passes because usually when he has been in the team they have been controlling possession excellently and cutting the opposition open with passing moves. Short passing is a good thing and long passing is usually just a symptom of the team not being able to cut the opposition open properly.

Also, lol at your claim that Rooney hasn't done much in Europe.

Your Airbag

G.K. wrote: »

Guys, calm down please.



That's a myth.

Not really. He didn't score one single goal in the world cup for Argentina or in the 2011 Copa America and they went out of both tournaments in the qtr finals.

He got two goals in the 2007 Copa America when they reached final and lost out to Bazil. One goal in the 2006 world cup. He was getting booed by national team fans at one point, not that I agree with this but the difference between club and country performances doesn't go unnoticed.

I'm not trying to say he's not a good player for his country but take him out of the Barca team with that midfeild around him and he is not as effective. Sure his runs will drag defenders out of place and he will assist but he hasn't done it at a major international tournament yet. He's had a run of goals in a few international friendlies lately, thats about it.

For the Barca team though, which is basically built around him, he is out of this world.

QikBax

Why are people replying to and quoting Samich?

It's really messing up my ignoring preferences

Your Airbag

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Speaking of Madrid , I really do hope we get them in Europe this year !. It's been too long and it's always been a personal favourite fixture of mine. I honestly think they could destroy us like barca and Bilbao but it would be great too see ronaldo return.

As far as a rivalry , it's not fierce and from what I can gather there's a pretty good relationship between Madrid fans and uniteds at least through Facebook due to the recent player history of us being a feeder club to them

I just hope we get out of the group

Joking aside, with no CM on the horizon and with Vidic back I can't see it happening but I would be 100% on it if we got a one or more players in that area.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Not really. He didn't score one single goal in the world cup for Argentina or in the 2011 Copa America and they went out of both tournaments in the qtr finals.

He got two goals in the 2007 Copa America when they reached final and lost out to Bazil. One goal in the 2006 world cup. He was getting booed by national team fans at one point, not that I agree with this but the difference between club and country performances doesn't go unnoticed.

I'm not trying to say he's not a good player for his country but take him out of the Barca team with that midfeild around him and he is not as effective. Sure his runs will drag defenders out of place and he will assist but he hasn't done it at a major international tournament yet. He's had a run of goals in a few international friendlies lately, thats about it.

For the Barca team though, which is basically built around him, he is out of this world.

But you have to take into account how absolutely awful that Argentinian team was over the last few years. Loads of good attacking players, but absolutely no shape or direction to their play. It was like they were playing a different sport where you just take turns as individuals to try and score goals, rather than working together to pass themselves into better situations. Messi had to create things completely on his own when playing for them, just like all their other good players did, and Messi did better than most.

Samich

jamc wrote: »

Why are people replying to and quoting Samich?

It's really messing up my ignoring preferences

Once again let people decide what they want to see themselves. Stop trying to influence them. Posting for all to see.

tvercetti

Imagine going for a pint with Samich and Pro F, would be gas craic:D

Although I could have sworn Samich said he was going off the drink a few days ago, he's well and truely back on it today.

Welcome Back Samich!!!

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

But you have to take into account how absolutely awful that Argentinian team was over the last few years. Loads of good attacking players, but absolutely no shape or direction to their play. It was like they were playing a different sport where you just take turns as individuals to try and score goals, rather than working together to pass themselves into better situations. Messi had to create things completely on his own when playing for them, just like all their other good players did, and Messi did better than most.

This is mostly true. Yes they have an incredible attack and the defense, lets just say its not their strong point but take the 2010 world cup for example. In the groups and first knockout round they scored 10 goals and let in 2 before getting beaten 4 nil by Germany .

They had Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria and Higuain in attack with Milito if required and a decent holding midfeilder in Mascherano. The defense although not the best in the world was at a decent enough standard, Heinze (LB) DeMichellis (CB) Burdisso (CB) and Otamendi at RB. Defending wasn't a problem until the Germany game as they were on the front foot most of the time, barring the Nigeria group game maybe , so you'd think Messi would have been more of a goal threat. Sure he assisted but its been talked about for a while that if he doesn't do it at a major int tournament (or in other words, when he is not in one of the greatest club sides ever assembled) he wont be remembered in that top tier of all time greats.

He does have influence when not scoring but its limited with Argentina. I could not see the likes of Zidane, Maradonna and Pele dropping form when playing for the national side like Messi does. But if wants to come to UTD and prove he can do it in a limited midfeild I'd welcome him, that is as long as he agrees to work on his finishing

Samich

tvercetti wrote: »

Imagine going for a pint with Samich and Pro F, would be gas craic:D

Although I could have sworn Samich said he was going off the drink a few days ago, he's well and truely back on it today.

Welcome Back Samich!!!

I don't drink alcohol.

G.K.

Messi generally plays well for Argentina, typically it has been from a deeper role, explaining the goal record, and with players who take up some of the space he wants to fill.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

This is mostly true. Yes they have an incredible attack and the defense, lets just say its not their strong point but take the 2010 world cup for example. In the groups and first knockout round they scored 10 goals and let in 2 before getting beaten 4 nil by Germany .

They had Tevez, Aguero, Di Maria and Higuain in attack with Milito if required and a decent holding midfeilder in Mascherano. The defense although not the best in the world was at a decent enough standard, Heinze (LB) DeMichellis (CB) Burdisso (CB) and Otamendi at RB. Defending wasn't a problem until the Germany game as they were on the front foot most of the time, barring the Nigeria group game maybe , so you'd think Messi would have been more of a goal threat. Sure he assisted but its been talked about for a while that if he doesn't do it at a major int tournament (or in other words, when he is not in one of the greatest club sides ever assembled) he wont be remembered in that top tier of all time greats.

He does have influence when not scoring but its limited with Argentina. I could not see the likes of Zidane, Maradonna and Pele dropping form when playing for the national side like Messi does. But if wants to come to UTD and prove he can do it in a limited midfeild I'd welcome him, that is as long as he agrees to work on his finishing

It's not just the fact that their defence has been bad though. It's the fact that they just give the ball to an attacker and then just sit back and watch. I've never seen a team play like that and waste such attacking talents by not working together. I don't think Messi performed badly when you consider those circumstances. And if people don't remember Messi in the top tier because of the problems with Argentina then that's more of a reflection on them than Messi imo.

tupac_healy

Been away for most of the day, any transfer news???


Any more on moura??

Mars Bar

tupac_healy wrote: »

Been away for most of the day, any transfer news???


Any more on moura??

He'll decide his future after the Olympics.

Jimmy Iovine

A comment about Schmeichel's recent appointment as United ambassador. These guys are so knowledgeable.

Man Utd Facebook ‏@MUFC_Facebook
I like schmikel but he is pretty old, mayb de gea is a better choice sir

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

It's not just the fact that their defence has been bad though. It's the fact that they just give the ball to an attacker and then just sit back and watch. I've never seen a team play like that and waste such attacking talents by not working together. I don't think Messi performed badly when you consider those circumstances. And if people don't remember Messi in the top tier because of the problems with Argentina then that's more of a reflection on them than Messi imo.

No. Every player is judged this way. Messi should be no different. I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best. Take Ronaldo for example, he has gotten to a major tournament final and lost and they went out in the semi's on penalties to a great team.

Its not a huge achievment but its more than Messi has done and Ronaldo gets slaughtered internationally. He was accussed of bottling it against Spain for not taking a penalty when the pecking order was decided by the coach before the tournament. It was crazy to hear the RTE panel and the beeb go after him over such an incident.

He is in the greats list with Messi but neither are in the top tier yet, I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best who do it at club level and the world cups. When you see the highlight footage of the greats its usually their world cup exploits that are shown, and rightly so. Its were the creme de la creme mix it.

Blatter

Your Airbag wrote: »

No. Every player is judged this way. Messi should be no different. I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best. Take Ronaldo for example, he has gotten to a major tournament final and lost and they went out in the semi's on penalties to a great team.

Its not a huge achievment but its more than Messi has done and Ronaldo gets slaughtered internationally. He was accussed of bottling it against Spain for not taking a penalty when the pecking order was decided by the coach before the tournament. It was crazy to hear the RTE panel and the beeb go after him over such an incident.

He is in the greats list with Messi but neither are in the top tier yet, I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best who do it at club level and the world cups. When you see the highlight footage of the greats its usually their world cup exploits that are shown, and rightly so. Its were the creme de la creme mix it.

Messi has a runners up medal in the 2007 Copa (the Euros equivalent) and also won Olympic gold in 2008. If anything, I'd say Messi has a better international record than Ronaldo.

Also, I'd agree with Pro. F in that it's silly to judge Messi on his past international form. (which wasn't actually bad per say, just not nearly as good as his Barca form)

Your Airbag

Blatter wrote: »

Messi has a runners up medal in the 2007 Copa (the Euros equivalent) and also won Olympic gold in 2008. If anything, I'd say Messi has a better international record than Ronaldo.

Also, I'd agree with Pro. F in that it's silly to judge Messi on his past international form. (which wasn't actually bad per say, just not nearly as good as his Barca form)

Its the most recent international form we have to go on. No goals or medals in his last two tournaments. Ronaldo also has a Euros runners up medal but I would not put him and Messi in the same category as Zidane, Pele and Co until they produce the goods and matching winning displays they do for their clubs on the WC stage.

G.K.

FIFA's technical team shotlisted Messi for the Golden Ball at the last WC, and had this to say of him:

"Outstanding in his pace and creativity for his team, dribbling, shooting, passing – spectacular and efficient"

Jimmy Iovine

G.K. wrote: »

FIFA's technical team shotlisted Messi for the Golden Ball at the last WC, and had this to say of him:

"Outstanding in his pace and creativity for his team, dribbling, shooting, passing – spectacular and efficient"

He wasn't as good as Diego Forlán was:

Architect of the team’s attack, very influential, great impact for his team, provider of quality final passes, goal scorer, set pieces/shots from long range

Your Airbag

G.K. wrote: »

FIFA's technical team shotlisted Messi for the Golden Ball at the last WC, and had this to say of him:

"Outstanding in his pace and creativity for his team, dribbling, shooting, passing – spectacular and efficient"

I'm not sure what pointing out an award he lost to a man suffering from the exact opposite problem proves (Forlan, great for country and not club, well not UTD anyway )

That nomination was on merit and a complete joke if you ask me. I wouldnt read to much into FIFAs golden team sheet nonsense any more than I would Gareth Crooks teams of the week. Asamoah Gyna also made the shortlist.

Its undeniable that he didn't produce anything like he is capable off. Sneidjer who had a great tournament and got to the final scoring five goals (Joint top with Villa) along the way should have won it although Forlan was immense.

Zinedine Zidane won the Golden Ball in 2006 but its hardly worth a mention. Its his World cup win and Euros win that are more important. He also has a WC runners up medal.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

No. Every player is judged this way. Messi should be no different. I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best. Take Ronaldo for example, he has gotten to a major tournament final and lost and they went out in the semi's on penalties to a great team.

Its not a huge achievment but its more than Messi has done and Ronaldo gets slaughtered internationally. He was accussed of bottling it against Spain for not taking a penalty when the pecking order was decided by the coach before the tournament. It was crazy to hear the RTE panel and the beeb go after him over such an incident.

He is in the greats list with Messi but neither are in the top tier yet, I'm talking about the all time greats, best of the best who do it at club level and the world cups. When you see the highlight footage of the greats its usually their world cup exploits that are shown, and rightly so. Its were the creme de la creme mix it.

I don't judge players that way. It's not a sensible way to judge players.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Its the most recent international form we have to go on.

Why?

G.K. wrote: »

FIFA's technical team shotlisted Messi for the Golden Ball at the last WC, and had this to say of him:

"Outstanding in his pace and creativity for his team, dribbling, shooting, passing – spectacular and efficient"

Tbf those technical committees are often made up of fools talking nonsense. I wouldn't pay much heed to what they say.

Jimmy Iovine

Your Airbag wrote: »

I'm not sure what pointing out an award he lost to a man suffering from the exact opposite problem proves (Forlan, great for country and not club, well not UTD anyway )

Forlán was brilliant for Villareal and later Atlético Madrid.

He is a two-time winner of the Pichichi Trophy (top Spanish scorer) and won the Europa League with Atlético in '10.

More impressively he was twice awarded the European Golden Shoe award (top scorer in all of Europe). That puts him in the same category as Eusébio, Gerd Muller, Theirry Henry, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi. No one has ever won it three times. Not yet anyway.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't judge players that way. It's not a sensible way to judge players.

Why?

I don't know, judging a player on his ability to reproduce club form for country is pretty normal, to highlight a massive imbalance as is the case here is perfectly reasonable.

Why? Well international friendlies are not a good barometer. They are usually in the off season and don't have the importance or pressure or expectancy of major international tournaments which is usually means a game every three days against better opposition who raise their game and performance levels due to national expectancy and the desire to do well after a two year qualifying campaign.

Most international friendlies involve the higher profile teams lining up against some lesser sides. Anyway I think we have derailed the UTD thread long enough so back to all things UTD

According to Wenger we didn't place a bid. Interesting

http://www.crunchsports.com/category/Soccer/Man-Utd-and-Man-City-yet-to-bid-for-Robin-van-Persie-claims-Arsene-Wenger-201207270026/

Your Airbag

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Forlán was brilliant for Villareal and later Atlético Madrid.

He is a two-time winner of the Pichichi Trophy (top Spanish scorer) and won the Europa League with Atlético in '10.

More impressively he was twice awarded the European Golden Shoe award (top scorer in all of Europe). That puts him in the same category as Eusébio, Gerd Muller, Theirry Henry, Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi. No one has ever won it three times. Not yet anyway.

Agreed and I'm a big fan. I was highlighting his lack of this type of form for UTD which is something that still peevs me to this day.

Jimmy Iovine

Your Airbag wrote: »

Agreed and I'm a big fan. I was highlighting his lack of this type of form for UTD which is something that still peevs me to this day.

The move came too early in his career. If he moved 5 years later he'd have been perfect.

Adamcp898

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

The move came too early in his career. If he moved 5 years later he'd have been perfect.

Yeah and I always get the feeling Fergie et al. thought the same, even at the time, given the way we hijacked 'boro's bid for him at the last minute. It kind of showed we thought it was buy him now or risk not being able to get him five years later.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

I don't know, judging a player on his ability to reproduce club form for country is pretty normal, to highlight a massive imbalance as is the case here is perfectly reasonable.

To only consider players for all time greatness if they have won international tournaments is not reasonable. It completely discounts the fact that not all international teams are made equal.

It doesn't matter if the majority of people do this. The majority of people do lots of stupid things.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Why? Well international friendlies are not a good barometer. They are usually in the off season and don't have the importance or pressure or expectancy of major international tournaments which is usually means a game every three days against better opposition who raise their game and performance levels due to national expectancy and the desire to do well after a two year qualifying campaign.

Most international friendlies involve the higher profile teams lining up against some lesser sides. Anyway I think we have derailed the UTD thread long enough so back to all things UTD

You said it's the most recent international form we have to go on. I don't know why you are talking about friendlies now. If you are going to talk up Ronaldo's international achievements there's no reason to discount similar achievements that Messi has had.

GSPfan

The last 5 pages should be deleted. More bickering about Carrick and a fookin Lionel Messi debate. Jaysus.

I'm gonna youtube this Sahin guy. Honestly never heard of him. I can actually see no more players arriving at United now. They seem to have gone all out for Moura and thats going cold and the Baines talk has vanished.
So who is keeping Sahin out of the Real Team? Who is his direct competition?

Professional Griefer

GSPfan wrote: »

The last 5 pages should be deleted. More bickering about Carrick and a fookin Lionel Messi debate. Jaysus.

I'm gonna youtube this Sahin guy. Honestly never heard of him. I can actually see no more players arriving at United now. They seem to have gone all out for Moura and thats going cold and the Baines talk has vanished.
So who is keeping Sahin out of the Real Team? Who is his direct competition?

Alonso, and Khedira I believe. He was injured a bit last year IIRC.

GSPfan

Right I've done my youtube homework.

Having seen Lucas Moura and Nuri Sahin ONLY on youtube clips, I can say without a doubt that Sahin is the player I would be desperate for at United.
I have not seen either of these players in an actual match and just on those clips alone I would be delighted if it was Sahin we were bidding for.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

Right I've done my youtube homework.

Having seen Lucas Moura and Nuri Sahin ONLY on youtube clips, I can say without a doubt that Sahin is the player I would be desperate for at United.
I have not seen either of these players in an actual match and just on those clips alone I would be delighted if it was Sahin we were bidding for.

I really dont think we need a player like Moura. However, he looks a talent so dont mind us being in for him. CM has to be the priority though, then LB

DM_7

Where is Cleverley going to fit next season?

He doesn't have the speed to cover ground quickly. Defensively its a worry as while he will work to get the ball, cover runs he can be bypassed easily enough on the break. On the ball though he has great qualities so you would want him in the team. It will be a tough balancing act.

He reminds a bit of leon osman, a guy you wouldnt pick as part of a two man midfield so you end up playing him wide or as a third midfielder.

GSPfan

Paul Tergat wrote: »

I really dont think we need a player like Moura. However, he looks a talent so dont mind us being in for him. CM has to be the priority though, then LB

Spot on. I'm of the same opinion. Would love Moura, Sahin, Baines.
Just to clarify before someone jumps down my throat as a few people like to do, I'm only basing my opinions of Moura and Sahin on clips and other peoples opinions. If they live up to the hype then sign them up please.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

Spot on. I'm of the same opinion. Would love Moura, Sahin, Baines.
Just to clarify before someone jumps down my throat as a few people like to do, I'm only basing my opinions of Moura and Sahin on clips and other peoples opinions. If they live up to the hype then sign them up please.

Aye mate its quite clear from the previous post that you were basing it on clips.

I've the same opinion on any potential move for RVP. Great player, love to have him but shouldn't be the priority.

Bigtoe107

Watched Sahin at Dormund quite a good bit and can honestly say he would be perfect for united, but I don't see real selling him he's too good and young for them to let go. That being said if he does go to us ill probably cream myself

Pro. F

DM-ICE wrote: »

Where is Cleverley going to fit next season?

He doesn't have the speed to cover ground quickly. Defensively its a worry as while he will work to get the ball, cover runs he can be bypassed easily enough on the break. On the ball though he has great qualities so you would want him in the team. It will be a tough balancing act.

He reminds a bit of leon osman, a guy you wouldnt pick as part of a two man midfield so you end up playing him wide or as a third midfielder.

He has plenty enough speed to play in central midfield. He has weaknesses defensively but as long as he is playing alongside someone who can cover that then it wouldn't be a problem imo. He is the perfect replacement for Scholes if he can just stay fit and not piss Fergie off again.

Samich

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

Watched Sahin at Dormund quite a good bit and can honestly say he would be perfect for united, but I don't see real selling him he's too good and young for them to let go. That being said if he does go to us ill probably cream myself

Who's position would he be more suited for? Scholes or Carrick? Looks to be a centre mid rather than a deep lying midfielder.

Also I mentioned international appearances and Rooney not having done anything and then this Messi debate is started. Jaysus :P

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

He has plenty enough speed to play in central midfield. He has weaknesses defensively but as long as he is playing alongside someone who can cover that then it wouldn't be a problem imo. He is the perfect replacement for Scholes if he can just stay fit and not piss Fergie off again.

If United play against a three man midfield it will be a problem. Even a young Scholes would find it difficult. For me one mobile player is not always enough in a two man midfield.

In possession he is going to be a great option. His defensive work is something I will be keeping an eye on though, he isn't going to out run anyone so he will have to see things develop early to make sure he is in good positions (hopefully comes with time)

Bigtoe107

Samich wrote: »

Who's position would he be more suited for? Scholes or Carrick? Looks to be a centre mid rather than a deep lying midfielder.

Also I mentioned international appearances and Rooney not having done anything and then this Messi debate is started. Jaysus :P

He's a box to box player in the swienstiger (sp) mould albeit a little bit more attacking, but I reckon he could play anywhere in the midfield.

Samich

Bigtoe107 wrote: »

He's a box to box player in the swienstiger (sp) mould albeit a little bit more attacking, but I reckon he could play anywhere in the midfield.

So wouldn't be a Carrick replacement?

kryogen

Samich wrote: »

So wouldn't be a Carrick replacement?

He would be a Carrick replacement in the same way Carrick was a Roy Keane replacement.

Why the need to put players into such small holes? He is an excellent All Round midfield player. Can do both attacking and defending well.

You don't always replace players with like for like players. Who do you think have been like for like replacements over the last 10-15 years in the team?

Bigtoe107

He could easily fill Carrick's role imo, but I don't really think we need to replace Carrick; he's not the best midfielder in the world but he is by no means the worst. Besides we should be looking to strengthen our midfield and replace Scholes, not a guy who still has some left in his admittedly limited tank.

Just to add Sahin is a mile better player than Carrick in most areas of midfield play, but getting him shouldn't necessitate that Carrick is shipped out.

GSPfan

Samich wrote: »

So wouldn't be a Carrick replacement?

I like you Samich. I agree with you on stuff when a gang of others jump down your throat. But please please please dont get in another debate with anyone on Michael Carrick. Its depressing me.

Pro. F

DM-ICE wrote: »

If United play against a three man midfield it will be a problem. Even a young Scholes would find it difficult. For me one mobile player is not always enough in a two man midfield.

In possession he is going to be a great option. His defensive work is something I will be keeping an eye on though, he isn't going to out run anyone so he will have to see things develop early to make sure he is in good positions (hopefully comes with time)

I wouldn't rate Cleverley as lacking in mobility. He is no less mobile than Xavi or Xabi Alonso for example. Nor is he particularly lacking in defensive ability for a creative CM imo.

Samich

GSPfan wrote: »

I like you Samich. I agree with you on stuff when a gang of others jump down your throat. But please please please dont get in another debate with anyone on Michael Carrick. Its depressing me.

Sorry. I didn't mean to start it there :P And thanks :P

And I never started the original Carrick debate anyways.

Jax Teller

If I compared Sahin to Cabaye would that be accurate ?

MagicMarker

You'd think Rooney could fork out for a professional photographer and more importantly, an interior designer.

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't rate Cleverley as lacking in mobility. He is no less mobile than Xavi or Xabi Alonso for example. Nor is he particularly lacking in defensive ability for a creative CM imo.

He can get around - but he doesn't get back quick enough for the positions he naturally takes up if he is going to play as part of a two man midfield.

He is more like Xavi than Alonso though. Xavi plays in a three man midfield, I think Cleverley would flourish in that type of role. In an Alonso role I think it wouldn't use his abilites very well.