Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Samich

DM-ICE wrote: »

I love Valencia.

He gives great options but he also has his limitations.

That is normal in Football and its why you invest in a squad.

also he is more than able for right back. He runs all day, tackles well and takes responsibility on himself and won't leave runners to other players. If the opposition only plays one attacker and a game is tight I would be happy for him to play there while another attacker is brought on.

Would not be happy with that at all.

He's not able defend the back post if a deep cross is put in. When you're a goal down and need a goal maybe go for it, but other than that, no. It's fantasy the idea of playing him RB.

Paul Tergat

DM-ICE wrote: »

I love Valencia.

He gives great options but he also has his limitations.

That is normal in Football and its why you invest in a squad.

also he is more than able for right back. He runs all day, tackles well and takes responsibility on himself and won't leave runners to other players. If the opposition only plays one attacker and a game is tight I would be happy for him to play there while another attacker is brought on.

This is where I'm more than happy to have Raf at RB.

We need to be playing Raf RB all the time from now on I think. Hes of the age now where he should get the chance

Jame Gumb

Paul Tergat wrote: »

The consistency argument over Nani has gone over the last couple of seasons. He has consistently produced and been comfortably our best winger. It was only injury last season that meant a few bad games were thrown in as he was coming back

He's certainly been far more consistent which is great but given the performance of Valencia over the same period, I can't agree that Nani's been "comfortably our best winger".

Hard to see where Ashley Young fits into all this either...squad player? As an established England international, surely he won't be happy with that (notwithstanding that the modern game's a squad affair).

Samich

I'd choose Young on the left, Nani on the right. I think Young has got great attributes. Versatile, good link up play, works hard too and quick feet. Can score from outside the box too. Thought he was vital towards the end of last season. I think most prefer Nani on the left and Valencia on the right though.

Paul Tergat

Jame Gumb wrote: »

He's certainly been far more consistent which is great but given the performance of Valencia over the same period, I can't agree that Nani's been "comfortably our best winger".

Hard to see where Ashley Young fits into all this either...squad player? As an established England international, surely he won't be happy with that (notwithstanding that the modern game's a squad affair).

Aye some people don't agree with me on it but I think Nani is our best winger on both sides. He can do what Val does, i.e. he has the pace to skin defenders and to be honest is arguably as strong as Val. He then offers so much more, more goals, both footed, better at shooting, think his link up play is better as well. We need to get Nani tied down to a long term deal and pay him accordingly as one of our best players.

The Young signing didn't make much sense to me as their were other priorities but then we play a lot of games so Young will comfortably play 30+ games a season

kryogen

Jame Gumb wrote: »

He's certainly been far more consistent which is great but given the performance of Valencia over the same period, I can't agree that Nani's been "comfortably our best winger".

Hard to see where Ashley Young fits into all this either...squad player? As an established England international, surely he won't be happy with that (notwithstanding that the modern game's a squad affair).

To use a football manager term

He is a member of the first team, not a key player

Jame Gumb

Paul Tergat wrote: »

We need to be playing Raf RB all the time from now on I think. Hes of the age now where he should get the chance

I agree 100%.

He has been error prone to date but he's young and talented.

If he curbs his attacking instincts somewhat and perhaps lives in fear of a hairdryer moment if he does something mad, he could be the answer.

But I genuinely don't think that he's definitely the solution...maybe but not certainly.

Fingers crossed though!

God, roll on next season!

Paul Tergat

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I agree 100%.

He has been error prone to date but he's young and talented.

If he curbs his attacking instincts somewhat and perhaps lives in fear of a hairdryer moment if he does something mad, he could be the answer.

But I genuinely don't think that he's definitely the solution...maybe but not certainly.

Fingers crossed though!

I think he is the answer and we should now give him a full season as first choice to prove it. Evans is a great example of how regular games can help development.

Jame Gumb wrote: »

God, roll on next season!

Yup. Olympics will tide us over until then but you cant beat United!

Al Capwned

Posted this a few weeks ago, but seeing as we're talking wingers.....

Right Wing

• Nani > Valencia > Young

Left Wing

• Nani > Young

Nani's best position is on the right, but our best combination has got to be Valencia on the right, with Nani on the left.

Paul Tergat

alproctor wrote: »

Nani's best position is on the right, but our best combination has got to be Valencia on the right, with Nani on the left.

.

GSPfan

When it comes down to the Valencia v Nani debate I am 100% of the belief that Valencia is a better winger.
But...... Nani is a better footballer. Ideally I'd like to see Nani infield more in front of goal. I've no idea how they could fit both of them in a team but that would be ideal for me.

And I definitely dont subscribe to the notion that Valencia comes up short against the best Left backs. He terrorises Ashley Cole when he plays against him. And he retains possesion of the ball very well when his angles are cut off. He doesnt run the ball out as much as say Nani does in the same position. He turns back and lays it off if he cannot get through. This for me makes me prefer Valencia to Nani in that position.

I really like Nani in front of goal though. Love a good blast from 30 yards and his little scoop over the goal keeper.

Apples and Oranges. I love fruit.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

When it comes down to the Valencia v Nani debate I am 100% of the belief that Valencia is a better winger. But...... Nani is a better footballer. Ideally I'd like to see Nani infield more in front of goal. I've no idea how they could fit both of them in a team but that would be ideal for me.

This is why Nani is better surely?

GSPfan wrote: »

And I definitely dont subscribe to the notion that Valencia comes up short against the best Left backs. He terrorises Ashley Cole when he plays against him. And he retains possesion of the ball very well when his angles are cut off. He doesnt run the ball out as much as say Nani does in the same position. He turns back and lays it off if he cannot get through. This for me makes me prefer Valencia to Nani in that position.

I really like Nani in front of goal though. Love a good blast from 30 yards and his little scoop over the goal keeper.

Apples and Oranges. I love fruit.

Fergie talks about having courage as a footballer. He talked about it with Ronaldo and Nani is the same. Part of being or aspiring to be the best is to try things that others dont. Nani will always look to beat his man so part of this is that he will lose it some of the time. Im happy for this to happen if it means he gets the returns he has been doing for us.

This is actually making it out like i dont like Val that much but I do, I just think Nani is on a different level for him.

Like you say though, fruit is good for ya!

DM_7

I'm not saying play Val from the start at right back.

Rafael won't play every game. When he is not in the team and Jones/Smalling/whoever is playing then Val would be perfect to take on that position late in a game in the scenario I mentioned.

SAF often takes off a full back when chasing the game, so why not ask Val to cover? Valencia wouldn't be defending much in the scanario I mention but would work back if needed. Most of the time he would still be attacking.

Paul Tergat

DM-ICE wrote: »

I'm not saying play Val from the start at right back.

Rafael won't play every game. When he is not in the team and Jones/Smalling/whoever is playing then Val would be perfect to take on that position late in a game in the scenario I mentioned.

SAF often takes off a full back when chasing the game, so why not ask Val to cover? Valencia wouldn't be defending much in the scanario I mention but would work back if needed. Most of the time he would still be attacking.

Oh ok well thats different and yeah not so bad. When say chasing a winner at home against a stubborn team who arent attacking much Val can be moved deeper, say put Young on, play Nani right with Val bombing on the outside. The LB would be ****ting himself

Jame Gumb

On a completely unrelated note, why are Insure.ie / Aon still using Michael Owen in a United jersey in their ads?

Paul Tergat

Jame Gumb wrote: »

On a completely unrelated note, why are Insure.ie / Aon still using Michael Owen in a United jersey in their ads?

Cause of his monotone voice

GSPfan

Paul Tergat wrote: »

This is why Nani is better surely?

No. Nani is a better footballer than Nemanja Vidic but he isn't a better centre half. Ya know. I would rather Valencia as a "hugging the touchline Winger". I would rather Nani as a "wide of a front 3 attacker".

I like having both of them in the squad. I would also hate for anyone to think I have a dislike for Nani. I dont. I just like Valencia a lot.

Jame Gumb

Paul Tergat wrote: »

When say chasing a winner at home against a stubborn team who arent attacking much Val can be moved deeper, say put Young on, play Nani right with Val bombing on the outside. The LB would be ****ting himself

Yeah, it'd be great to see Gael Clichy like a rabbit in the headlights!!!

Samich

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Yeah, it'd be great to see Gael Clichy like a rabbit in the headlights!!!

He said a team who doesn't attack and sits back :P

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

No. Nani is a better footballer than Nemanja Vidic but he isn't a better centre half. Ya know. I would rather Valencia as a "hugging the touchline Winger". I would rather Nani as a "wide of a front 3 attacker".

I like having both of them in the squad. I would also hate for anyone to think I have a dislike for Nani. I dont. I just like Valencia a lot.

Daft to compare Nani and Vida seeing as they dont play the same position. Val and Nani do.

Jame Gumb

Samich wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Yeah, it'd be great to see Gael Clichy like a rabbit in the headlights!!!

He said a team who doesn't attack and sits back :P

Ha ha - I was just having a laugh.

Joking aside, we're very light at fullback on both sides (although less so on the right).

Evra's our only real left back. Evans and Brady aren't left backs at all.

And on the right, Rafael's our only "real" right back. Valencia, Jones and Smalling aren't right backs in the true sense of the term.

GSPfan

Paul Tergat wrote: »

GSPfan wrote: »

No. Nani is a better footballer than Nemanja Vidic but he isn't a better centre half. Ya know. I would rather Valencia as a "hugging the touchline Winger". I would rather Nani as a "wide of a front 3 attacker".

I like having both of them in the squad. I would also hate for anyone to think I have a dislike for Nani. I dont. I just like Valencia a lot.

Daft to compare Nani and Vida seeing as they dont play the same position. Val and Nani do.

No its not. Ok so lets say Rio is a better footballer but Vidic is a better defender. See the difference? Now apply it to the Original thing i said. Valencia is a better winger but Nani is a better footballer.

IN MY OPINION.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

No its not. Ok so lets say Rio is a better footballer but Vidic is a better defender. See the difference? Now apply it to the Original thing i said. Valencia is a better winger but Nani is a better footballer.

IN MY OPINION.

Fairer comparison and one I would prob agree with. I guess I should revise what I said and say in THAT INSTANCE I would take the better footballer over the better winger as you are offered much more. When im looking at centre halves I would opt for the better defender. Basically my sweeping statement doesnt always apply

GSPfan

Is it possible that for Ferguson to go with 3 centre halves in the new season?
Something along the lines of....

DeGea
Smalling Vidic Evans
Valencia Carrick Evra
Nani Kagawa Young
Rooney

Samich

GSPfan wrote: »

Is it possible that for Ferguson to go with 3 centre halves in the new season?
Something along the lines of....

DeGea
Smalling Vidic Evans
Valencia Carrick Evra
Nani Kagawa Young
Rooney

Should be looking at it imo.

It's said lots of teams play 3 in midfield and then we do poorly, if there's 3 in midfield that leaves one attacker so 3 central defenders should be enough.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

Is it possible that for Ferguson to go with 3 centre halves in the new season?
Something along the lines of....

DeGea
Smalling Vidic Evans
Valencia Carrick Evra
Nani Kagawa Young
Rooney

That makes our CM problems even bigger. We would have Carrick sat there with nobody within 20/30 yards of him

I hate 3 at the back. Should be 4-4-2 or 4-5-1/4-3-3 for the season imo

Jame Gumb

GSPfan wrote: »

Is it possible that for Ferguson to go with 3 centre halves in the new season?
Something along the lines of....

DeGea
Smalling Vidic Evans
Valencia Carrick Evra
Nani Kagawa Young
Rooney

Bye bye Rio?

No Phil Jones?

Not agreeing or disagreeing...interesting though.

I'm not really a fan of 3 at the back though...

Would like to see:

De Gea
Rafael
Evra
Jones
Vidic
Fellaini
Scholes
Valencia
Nani
Kagawa
Rooney

in a non rigid 4-5-1

Samich

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Bye bye Rio?

No Phil Jones?

Not agreeing or disagreeing...interesting though.

Rio is declining, Smalling is improving. At the end of the season I think we'll see a clear gap between Smalling and Rio.

Red Crow

Why would we be paying over £25 Million for Lucas?

I know some suggest he will be/is a better player than Oscar but still the fees should be similar.

I don't think we'll sign him tbh unless Nani refuses to sign the contract.

Felexicon

So, Michael Carrick huh

GSPfan

Yeah I actually agree that Carrick could be majorly exposed with that type of line up.
I do think Evans and Smalling would be better for a 3 center half partnership than Jones and Rio. Just because I've liked both of them in RB and LB roles and they may be better covering up for Evra and Valencia if a player gets around them.

Maybe this then.....

Valencia Carrick Evra
Scholes
Nani Kagawa
Rooney

Paul Tergat

Im really concerned over the progression of both Chicho and Welbeck in the coming season.

Red Crow

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
Valencia Carrick Anderson/Cleverley Nani
Kagawa
Rooney

I don't see us signing any other players so I'd be hopeful that either Anderson or Cleverley will be able to perform to a high level.

Paul Tergat

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah I actually agree that Carrick could be majorly exposed with that type of line up.
I do think Evans and Smalling would be better for a 3 center half partnership than Jones and Rio. Just because I've liked both of them in RB and LB roles and they may be better covering up for Evra and Valencia if a player gets around them.

Maybe this then.....

Valencia Carrick Evra
Scholes
Nani Kagawa
Rooney

I just dont understand the benefits of 3 at the back? Is it simply to cover up Evra's defensive problems? If so then theres an easier solution

Paul Tergat

Eli Manning wrote: »

De Gea
Rafael Smalling Vidic Evra
Valencia Carrick Anderson/Cleverley Nani
Kagawa
Rooney

I don't see us signing any other players so I'd be hopeful that either Anderson or Cleverley will be able to perform to a high level.

Given our current squad this is my first choice too but maybe with Scholes playing certain matches

Jame Gumb

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Im really concerned over the progression of both Chicho and Welbeck in the coming season.

Chicharito is so likeable because of his attitude and outlook.

But unfortunately his first touch and work outside the box aren't world class. He was very naive against Barca in the CL final. What a finisher though!

If Wellbeck had Chicharito's pace and finishing ability, things would be perfect.

Two great kids though...great pros and great attitudes. The opposite of the diamond earring Baby Bentley mob.

I'm a serious Hernandez fan...would love to see him given a run and developed further as a player.

shrewdness

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Bye bye Rio?

No Phil Jones?

Not agreeing or disagreeing...interesting though.

I'm not really a fan of 3 at the back though...

Would like to see:

De Gea
Rafael
Evra
Jones
Vidic
Fellaini
Scholes
Valencia
Nani
Kagawa
Rooney

in a non rigid 4-5-1

I'd have both Smalling and Evans well ahead of Jones for starting at CB now. Smalling in particular is a potentially world-class CB imo and may well cement a starting spot along side Vidic by the end of the season as Rio is gradually eased out.

Red Crow

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Im really concerned over the progression of both Chicho and Welbeck in the coming season.

Well what could happen is that Welbeck will be brought on and we can shift players in order to fit him in but I don't think either player will be a starter. Welbeck certainly should be given his chance. Chico will definitely see a lot of the bench this season.

I'm hoping we have at least 50+ games next year, plenty of players will get their chance.

G.K.

If we're talking back 3, based on the club's current playing staff, I would go for a 'back 3-and-a-half', where United play a back 3 of Evans, Vidic, Smalling while attacking, with Carrick and Scholes deep. Valencia, Nani, Rooney, Welbeck and Kagawa attack, the wingers from the flanks, Welbeck and Kagawa taking advantage of space made by Rooney.

When defending, there's 2 flat banks of 4, Evans shifting over to LB, Valencia to RB, with Nani and Welbeck on the flanks in the second bank, Rooney and Kagawa ahead of them.

Just how I would approach a back 3.

GSPfan

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Im really concerned over the progression of both Chicho and Welbeck in the coming season.

Defo. Chico even more so than Welbeck.

Although I do think there is so many games in a season and they will always have a chance. Just hope its not confined to league cup and early champions league home matches with a completely changed team.

I HATE Ferguson for the way he fooks around with the team drastically for Champions League games. He should be resting players in rotation instead of resting them all at the same time. i.e. Champions League.

shrewdness

Eli Manning wrote: »

Why would we be paying over £25 Million for Lucas?

I know some suggest he will be/is a better player than Oscar but still the fees should be similar.

I don't think we'll sign him tbh unless Nani refuses to sign the contract.

But there does appear to be genuine interest in him and an effort being made to sign him. Does that suggest there's more to the Nani contract issue than meets the eye?

Red Crow

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Given our current squad this is my first choice too but maybe with Scholes playing certain matches

I think Ferguson will start with a midfield trio of Cleverley, Anderson and Kagawa. with Kagawa being the furtherest forward. But, ultimately, he'll fall back on playing Carrick and as you said Paul Scholes.

If either Anderson or Cleverley gives us a good year we're in for a good season.

sawfish

Eli Manning wrote: »

Why would we be paying over £25 Million for Lucas?

I know some suggest he will be/is a better player than Oscar but still the fees should be similar.

I don't think we'll sign him tbh unless Nani refuses to sign the contract.

Have you seen the videos of Lucas moura on YouTube? He looks an exceptional talent ...

Id love for him to sign but I think its more likely for him to go to Spain eventually ..better weather and similar culture etc

Jame Gumb

shrewdness wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Bye bye Rio?

No Phil Jones?

Not agreeing or disagreeing...interesting though.

I'm not really a fan of 3 at the back though...

Would like to see:

De Gea
Rafael
Evra
Jones
Vidic
Fellaini
Scholes
Valencia
Nani
Kagawa
Rooney

in a non rigid 4-5-1

I'd have both Smalling and Evans well ahead of Jones for starting at CB now. Smalling in particular is a potentially world-class CB imo and may well cement a starting spot along side Vidic by the end of the season as Rio is gradually eased out.

I wonder whether Jones is suffering because of his versatility?

He's an incredibly gifted footballer in my view.

Having said that, Smalling has been a great signing. But he's broken his foot so wont be fit for a while (late September?).

I would not rate Evans above Jones, although Evans improvement last season was remarkable.

We're very well stocked at centre back, aren't we?

Jesus Fergie...sign some centre midfielders...the situation is nuts really!

markc91

I was thinking of a formation were we to sign rvp with 3 at the back only problem being no cover down the left but the team i was thinking was:
De Gea
Smalling Rio Vidic
Scholes Carrick
Valencia Kagawa Nani
Rooney Rvp

Val could get up and down the wing but i wouldnt trust nani defensively but either way that will be a formation i toy around with on the new fifa

Paul Tergat

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Chicharito is so likeable because of his attitude and outlook.

But unfortunately his first touch and work outside the box aren't world class. He was very naive against Barca in the CL final. What a finisher though!

If Wellbeck had Chicharito's pace and finishing ability, things would be perfect.

Two great kids though...great pros and great attitudes. The opposite of the diamond earring Baby Bentley mob.

I'm a serious Hernandez fan...would love to see him given a run and developed further as a player.

Hybrid of Welb and Chicho. They need each others qualities! Both young though and the way to develop is through game time. Kagawa will limit theirs which is a bit sad

Eli Manning wrote: »

Well what could happen is that Welbeck will be brought on and we can shift players in order to fit him in but I don't think either player will be a starter. Welbeck certainly should be given his chance. Chico will definitely see a lot of the bench this season.

I'm hoping we have at least 50+ games next year, plenty of players will get their chance.

Yeah they will get games but at their ages they need to be playing week in week out. The fact neither will start means one of them at least will suffer massively in their development. Both great options from the bench mind

G.K.

Jones has to settle into a position imo. For me that position is CB, though I'd put all of the other 4 ahead of him atm, and what he needs is games.

Red Crow

shrewdness wrote: »

But there does appear to be genuine interest in him and an effort being made to sign him. Does that suggest there's more to the Nani contract issue than meets the eye?

I'd imagine so. Moura wouldn't get the time he needs if Nani was here. He certainly won't be played as an AMF here.

I'd rather we went for a Sahin, Vidal etc. but he's not buying anyone there and he's pinning our hopes on Anderson and Cleverley.

GSPfan

The only reason i mention a back 3 is the severe lack of a left back in our squad. If Evra gets injured, Or Ferguson realises how many times he is the fault of a goal, then I wonder how we will cope. I'm not confident at all we will sign a left back this summer.
Also I think a back 3 and Raf and Fab as the wing backs would be great for the future. It would cover their defensive lapses a little more.

Red Crow

Paul Tergat wrote: »

Yeah they will get games but at their ages they need to be playing week in week out. The fact neither will start means one of them at least will suffer massively in their development. Both great options from the bench mind

I think Welbeck should get a lot of starts next year. But you're right. It's likely to stifle the development of at least one of them.