Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

dahat

Pro. F wrote: »

I think Berba can be okay in that position. Definitely good enough to be a back-up. But we already have Rooney who is much better than Berb in that role and Welbeck who is only a bit better than Berb but will improve, and Welbeck will be desperately in need of games.

Berba is surplus to requirements at this stage so we'd be better off with him off the wage bill.

I reckon he will only go if RVP comes in,would be pretty silly to sell him if no replacement comes in.
I reckon Rooney and Kagawa could rorate the 10 role to give Chico and Wellbeck games,Rooney could well be protected more this season than in previous ones

Paul Tergat

dahat wrote: »

I reckon he will only go if RVP comes in,would be pretty silly to sell him if no replacement comes in.
I reckon Rooney and Kagawa could rorate the 10 role to give Chico and Wellbeck games,Rooney could well be protected more this season than in previous ones

Dont agree with that. Rooney will still start whenever he is fit, maybe rested once or twice at most so essentially we have Rooney/Chicho/Welbeck fighting for one place with Kagawa behind them. Occasionally Rooney will drop into the hole and play either of the other 2 up front

R.F.

dahat wrote: »

I reckon he will only go if RVP comes in,would be pretty silly to sell him if no replacement comes in.
I reckon Rooney and Kagawa could rorate the 10 role to give Chico and Wellbeck games,Rooney could well be protected more this season than in previous ones

He is for sale no matter who comes in or not as the case may be.

If we find a buyer it is in everyone's best interest including Berbatov, that he leave. At this stage if his career he cannot be sitting in the bench wasting away.

Nalz

Id say Berba could have another last transfer deadline day move this season. I'd be surprised if he stays

Al Capwned

Re: Berbatov - don't think anyone would disagree that he will be on his way, but what does kinda rankle with me is that some people seem to think he was a 'flop' at the club... Was anything but, imo.

I was always a fan and I wish him well wherever he goes....

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Backstreet Moyes

alproctor wrote: »

Re: Berbatov - don't think anyone would disagree that he will be on his way, but what does kinda rankle with me is that some people seem to think he was a 'flop' at the club... Was anything but, imo.

I was always a fan and I wish him well wherever he goes....

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People easily forget while Rooney was off holding the club to ransom Berba and Nani were carrying United to a league title. Berba was far from a flop for that season alone he justified his price tag. A gentleman and a legend will always wish him well has a great attitude and he personifies elegance.

Your Airbag

alproctor wrote: »

Re: Berbatov - don't think anyone would disagree that he will be on his way, but what does kinda rankle with me is that some people seem to think he was a 'flop' at the club... Was anything but, imo.

I was always a fan and I wish him well wherever he goes....

____________


Also - is anyone else having issues about not getting email notifications when there is a new post in any thread you follow?

Nuts102 wrote: »

People easily forget while Rooney was off holding the club to ransom Berba and Nani were carrying United to a league title. Berba was far from a flop for that season alone he justified his price tag. A gentleman and a legend will always wish him well has a great attitude and he personifies elegance.

Well said guys.

I'm Berbas biggest fan and never has such a player wit a professional attitude been given such a raw deal at UTD. His attitude is very noble, he is almost to nice at times. He was top scorer when we won the 19th title and showed what he can do given a serious run of games. Not even being on the bench for the CL final was border line disrespectful imo, as much as I love Fergie that was one decision that I still have a gripe over.

I hope we hang onto him. It would pain me to see another club blessed with his skills.

Giggsy11

Our super wingers. #7 and #17.

Nalz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjGpQlOMvpM

Pro. F

dahat wrote: »

I reckon he will only go if RVP comes in,would be pretty silly to sell him if no replacement comes in.
I reckon Rooney and Kagawa could rorate the 10 role to give Chico and Wellbeck games,Rooney could well be protected more this season than in previous ones

It wouldn't be silly to sell him if no one else comes in though. For the two striker positions we have Rooney, Kagawa, Welbeck and Chicharito. Then Cleverley, Powell and Young can also fill in in that no10/ACM role if we're really stuck.

Player wages make up a big proportion of the club's expenses. Paying big money to Berba when he's not needed is a harmful waste of money.

alproctor wrote: »

Re: Berbatov - don't think anyone would disagree that he will be on his way, but what does kinda rankle with me is that some people seem to think he was a 'flop' at the club... Was anything but, imo.

I agree he wasn't a flop. What he was imo was a poor transfer by Fergie. Berba had played in the PL for years. Everybody knew what he was all about, good and bad. Fergie spends massive money on him, Berba does his thing and keeps doing his thing but after a while Fergie loses all interest in him. Nothing changed about Berbatov. Fergie just squandered a huge transfer spend on a player that it is evident couldn't do the job Fergie wanted him to.

bullvine

For the money alone. Berbatov easily one of the worst signings ever for the club.

Chicarito had a far more influential season in 2011 BTW

Jame Gumb

I actually like Berbatov, but on balance I'd have to agree that he's been more flop than success at United.

- He's the club's most expensive signing ever.

- For the majority of his time at the club, he hasn't been first choice.

- When the biggest game of his time at United came along (Barca at Wembley), he didn't even make the squad.

- There's a perception that he's a bit of a flat track bully and that the bulk of his goals for United have come against cannon fodder.

Just to reiterate, I actually like him but I can't agree that he's been a success or a "good" signing. At best, I think that he's been an "okay" signing, but if we're 100% objective, it never really worked out. A crying shame...what a talent and what technique / skill.

bullvine

I think most fans love Berba and he may have worked for United around Ten years ago but his style was outta place. I was a big fan of his but at end of 2010 season when we needed him to pick up from Rooney who had got injured against Bayern he never did it. He was shocking in those last 6-7 games, especially against Chelsea and the Sunderland game in particular, he had an absolute 'mare, missed about 5 chances as I recall.

I actually think he had more influence in 09 season, scoring in a couple of one nils around Xmas that helped us win the title.

sawfish

bullvine wrote: »

I actually think he had more influence in 09 season, scoring in a couple of one nils around Xmas that helped us win the title.

I remember him being good when we were 2-0 down away to blackpool in the 2011 winning season..scored a great goal and we won 3-2 in the end

Donnielighto

If berbatov was a bad buy it wasnt his fault. Berba has his own game and he's very good at it, when given in the team the chance his touch, vision and finishing are amazing, he should have been played in a 9/10 rotation with rooney where they each swapped positions during the match. Really I blame fergie for berba not being a bigger success at the club, his record of 48 goals in 108 games is a pretty good return when you consider that he hasnt been first choice for a lot of that.

RasTa

Kag, Nani or Valencia for FF?

Blatter

RasTa wrote: »

Kag, Nani or Valencia for FF?

I'd decide after the next round of friendly matches, should get a slightly better idea of what Fergie's plans are for the start of the season.

Most likely Kagawa for me, more of a goalscorer than the other two and should get a similar amount assists.

Al Capwned

RasTa wrote: »

Kag, Nani or Valencia for FF?

Yeah, I took a punt on Kagawa too. As Blatter said, he's likely to be more of a goal threat than the other too, especially Valencia.

Donnielighto

RasTa wrote: »

Kag, Nani or Valencia for FF?

kag or nani, more chance of goals, nani probably, kag might be eased in

Copper_pipe

Donnielighto wrote: »

RasTa wrote: »

Kag, Nani or Valencia for FF?

kag or nani, more chance of goals, nani probably, kag might be eased in

There's a united thread league, I'm not sure how I signed up this year for it but im in it, :P

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Copper_pipe wrote: »

There's a united thread league, I'm not sure how I signed up this year for it but im in it, :P

I just re-activated the one from last season.

Al Capwned

baz2009 wrote: »

I just re-activated the one from last season.

Think I'm in that. Not sure - being bombarded with invitations from friends, clubs, FB pages.....

Your Airbag

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I actually like Berbatov, but on balance I'd have to agree that he's been more flop than success at United.

- He's the club's most expensive signing ever.

- For the majority of his time at the club, he hasn't been first choice.

- When the biggest game of his time at United came along (Barca at Wembley), he didn't even make the squad.

- There's a perception that he's a bit of a flat track bully and that the bulk of his goals for United have come against cannon fodder.

Just to reiterate, I actually like him but I can't agree that he's been a success or a "good" signing. At best, I think that he's been an "okay" signing, but if we're 100% objective, it never really worked out. A crying shame...what a talent and what technique / skill.

None of those things are Berbas fault though. The amount of money the manager wants to spend on him and how often he wants him on the bench are not really a way to judge a player. As for the fourth argument sure he scored the bulk of hs goals against the weaker teams, this is not a bad thing, and he didnt really shine in the big games. People always bring up the Chelsea game at OT where we needed to win to stay in the title race but its unfair to blame Berba for this, the whole team was bettered by Chelsea that day who wrongly had an offside goal allowed iirc.

Ok the Man City FA cup semi sticks out but the EPL is a long haul. You have to put away the smaller teams to stay in the hunt to make the big wins mean anything and that 19th title season whilst Rooney was being very ungratefull Berbs really came through for us with both his attitude and goals. I really like him as a person and player, fingers crossed he gets some game time next season.

Donnielighto

My Team

Szczesny ARS

Koscielny ARS -- Rafael MUN -- Lescott MCI

Allen SWA -- Mata CHE (VC) -- Kagawa MUN -- McClean SUN -- Cabaye NEW

Torres CHE (C) -- Sturridge CHE

Ruddy NOW
Ferdinand QPR
Simpson NEW
Pogrebnyak RDG

3M in the bank, any thoughts?

Owen_S

With the possibility of Kagawa dropping off as an extra player in midfield, we might see better performances from Cleverley this season. His performances in a midfield 3 at the Olympics have been outstanding so far, and his performances at Wigan also suggest that he is too isolated in a 4-4-2.

Jame Gumb

Your Airbag wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I actually like Berbatov, but on balance I'd have to agree that he's been more flop than success at United.

- He's the club's most expensive signing ever.

- For the majority of his time at the club, he hasn't been first choice.

- When the biggest game of his time at United came along (Barca at Wembley), he didn't even make the squad.

- There's a perception that he's a bit of a flat track bully and that the bulk of his goals for United have come against cannon fodder.

Just to reiterate, I actually like him but I can't agree that he's been a success or a "good" signing. At best, I think that he's been an "okay" signing, but if we're 100% objective, it never really worked out. A crying shame...what a talent and what technique / skill.

None of those things are Berbas fault though. The amount of money the manager wants to spend on him and how often he wants him on the bench are not really a way to judge a player

I can't agree with you. If course those points are relevant.

Would you say that Shevchenko was a success at Chelsea because his £31m fee wasn't his fault and the fact that Mourinho didn't fancy him wasn't his fault either?

In the biggest match the greatest manager deemed Berba surplus to requirements...the most expensive player in the club's history. When it comes to judging his relative success or failure, you can't ignore these factors.

If Chico had the career Berba has had, he'd be a success based on his transfer fee and the expectation placed on him. But with Berba, we're talking about a £31m player...his impact should have been greater.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Berbatov wasn't a flop. Without him United would only have 18 titles, imo, this alone stops him from being a flop. The hat-trick against Liverpool also helps.

Jame Gumb

http://averageopposition.com/2012/06/04/premier-league-review-2011-2012-part-1/

Check out the above link.

Strikers are analysed and branded "flat track bullies" based on the opposition that they score against and the value of the goals that they score (i.e. whether the goals win a point or are at the tail end of a hammering of a poor side).

Unfortunately, Berba's name features high on such lists.

A talented player and definitely something north of a flop but cannot be described as a success.

A shame.

bullvine

baz2009 wrote: »

Berbatov wasn't a flop. Without him United would only have 18 titles, imo, this alone stops him from being a flop. The hat-trick against Liverpool also helps.

If me auntie had balls she'd be my unkle, a couple good performances in one season and hes a success, whose to say if Chico had of played against Liverpool he wouldnt of got four. Liverpool were pants at that stage.

Donnielighto

bullvine wrote: »

If me auntie had balls she'd be my unkle, a couple good performances in one season and hes a success, whose to say if Chico had of played against Liverpool he wouldnt of got four. Liverpool were pants at that stage.

Chico isnt in question here so that point doesnt really apply

3hn2givr7mx1sc

bullvine wrote: »

If me auntie had balls she'd be my unkle, a couple good performances in one season and hes a success, whose to say if Chico had of played against Liverpool he wouldnt of got four. Liverpool were pants at that stage.

That phrase makes no sense in relation to my post.

Chico didn't play in that game and Chico didn't score twenty-odd goals that season to win us the league. Berbatov did.

MagicMarker

Nick Powell's goal last night, Bebe involved in the build up wearing No. 7. :eek:

Pro. F

Owen_S wrote: »

With the possibility of Kagawa dropping off as an extra player in midfield, we might see better performances from Cleverley this season. His performances in a midfield 3 at the Olympics have been outstanding so far, and his performances at Wigan also suggest that he is too isolated in a 4-4-2.

He was outstanding when he played in the centre of a 442 last season.

At Wigan he played on the wing.

double GG

Bebe looks so strong!

Jame Gumb

GB match gone to penos...

Owen_S

Pro. F wrote: »

He was outstanding when he played in the centre of a 442 last season.

At Wigan he played on the wing.

At Wigan he had more options. Last season he struck up a good partnership with Anderson, but once he had recovered from the injury(injuries, but IIRC both injuries stemmed from a single tackle by a certain dirty Bolton player), I felt that he struggled for form and often hit hopeless balls up front.

Bebe's pre-season form should be spark fear in the opposition, I can see him bagging 20+ goals this season.

Your Airbag

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I can't agree with you. If course those points are relevant.

Would you say that Shevchenko was a success at Chelsea because his £31m fee wasn't his fault and the fact that Mourinho didn't fancy him wasn't his fault either?

In the biggest match the greatest manager deemed Berba surplus to requirements...the most expensive player in the club's history. When it comes to judging his relative success or failure, you can't ignore these factors.

If Chico had the career Berba has had, he'd be a success based on his transfer fee and the expectation placed on him. But with Berba, we're talking about a £31m player...his impact should have been greater.

I can't agree with this, you have rehased the same points I said earlier. Shevchenko, Carroll, Berbatov and any other player have zero control over the fee a club will spend on them. Its totally out of their hands. To then judge a player by equating his transfer fee to the amount of goals he must score based on this is illogical. If two players move clubs, one for a big fee and one for a modest fee and they both bag 30 goals in their first season you can say one was better value but both were good players, one club did better business but on the pitch both players preformed. The fee spent is a reflection on how much value club got and a reflection on their business pratices, using a fee spent on a player against him is pointless.

Berbatov was expensive becasue Spurs played hardball with us. I'm not sure what point your making with Sheva. No I woud not say he was a success at Chelsea and its nothing to do with his fee because thats a business transaction and not a footballing attribute. I think Shevchenko was not a success becasue he scored 22goals in 72apps for Chelsea. Berbatov got 21 in 42 apps in one season for us.

48 goals in 108 EPL games is not too bad, its not out of this world but for someone who is essentially a 2nd striker its not bad. The fee Spurs got for him should not be taken into the equation when Judging Dimitar.

He was our top scorer and the leauges top scorer the season before last. Last season Fergie dropped him, again out of the players control, why was he dropped when he was perfectly capable of scoring goals? you'd need to ask Fergie. Last season he got a run of games around christmas, I think 3-5 full starts. In that short period he racked up more goals than Suarez had in many more starts to that point all season for Liverpool. Than he gets dropped again. Fergie prefers someone else, again harsh on Berbatov but you seem to see it as a bad reflection on him rather than a somewhat tough and slightly unfair call from Fergie.

If we had spent 11m on Berbatov would he have been a success then? He would have been better value thats for sure but the stats remain the same, he has done what he has done not becasue of the fee but in spite of it.

Jame Gumb

Nice peno Clev!

Owen_S

Outstanding penalty from Cleverley there!

Mars Bar

Clev scores his penalty

Paul Tergat

We get Giggs and Clev back now

Jame Gumb

@ Your Airbag

I'm not quoting the post 'cause it's too long. I'm not rehashing any points - I'm expressing my view that your analysis is flawed. You dismissed the points which I don't agree with. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. Whether a player is a "success" or a "flop" is related to his transfer fee. A £31m striker (e.g. Berba) and a £7m striker (Chico) cannot and should not be subject to the same level of expectation or scrutiny.

bullvine

baz2009 wrote: »

That phrase makes no sense in relation to my post.

Chico didn't play in that game and Chico didn't score twenty-odd goals that season to win us the league. Berbatov did.

It makes total sense you said we wouldnt have won the league had Berbatov not scored a hat trick but whose to say if someone had played instead they wouldnt have done as well, 7-8 players were far more influential that season than berbatov. Theres a reason he didnt even make the bench for the Barca Game. You think he had a Van Nistelrooy 2003 season the ways yis are drooling over him.

Your Airbag

Jame Gumb wrote: »

@ Your Airbag

I'm not quoting the post 'cause it's too long. I'm not rehashing any points - I'm expressing my view that your analysis is flawed. You dismissed the points which I don't agree with. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. Whether a player is a "success" or a "flop" is related to his transfer fee. A £31m striker (e.g. Berba) and a £7m striker (Chico) cannot and should not be subject to the same level of expectation or scrutiny.

I'm sorry but thats where your wrong. Completely wrong. Why? Becasue its nothing to do with the performances and the goods they deliver on the pitch Its a transaction between two clubs, agents and finance departents. It has nothing to do with footballing ability but for some reason you want to use it as such.

If we had payed 11m for Berbatov would he be a success?

VW 1

Owen S wrote: »

Bebe's pre-season form should be spark fear in the opposition, I can see him bagging 20+ goals this season.

Conservative estimate.

Pro. F

Owen_S wrote: »

At Wigan he had more options. Last season he struck up a good partnership with Anderson, but once he had recovered from the injury(injuries, but IIRC both injuries stemmed from a single tackle by a certain dirty Bolton player), I felt that he struggled for form and often hit hopeless balls up front.

He wasn't given a proper run of games when he came back from injury and he was played out of position a bit too. When he had the run of games at the start of last season he showed how good he is in a two man central midfield.

Pro. F

VW 1 wrote: »

Conservative estimate.

Brazen misattribution of a quote there!

VW 1

Pro. F wrote: »

Owen_S wrote: »

At Wigan he had more options. Last season he struck up a good partnership with Anderson, but once he had recovered from the injury(injuries, but IIRC both injuries stemmed from a single tackle by a certain dirty Bolton player), I felt that he struggled for form and often hit hopeless balls up front.

He wasn't given a proper run of games when he came back from injury and he was played out of position a bit too. When he had the run of games at the start of last season he showed how good he is in a two man central midfield.

Alongside Anderson, for the first 5 games and 5 minutes of the 6th of last season, we're the most exciting games we have seen United play since the trinity of Rooney Ronaldo Tevez.

Jame Gumb

Your Airbag wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

@ Your Airbag

I'm not quoting the post 'cause it's too long. I'm not rehashing any points - I'm expressing my view that your analysis is flawed. You dismissed the points which I don't agree with. You're obviously entitled to your opinion. Whether a player is a "success" or a "flop" is related to his transfer fee. A £31m striker (e.g. Berba) and a £7m striker (Chico) cannot and should not be subject to the same level of expectation or scrutiny.

I'm sorry but thats where your wrong. Completely wrong. Why? Becasue its nothing to do with the performances and the goods they deliver on the pitch Its a transaction between two clubs, agents and finance departents. It has nothing to do with footballing ability but for some reason you want to use it as such.

If we had payed 11m for Berbatov would he be a success?

The point that you're trying to make doesn't make sense.

If a guy comes in on a free transfer and becomes a useful squad player, he's been successful.

If a guy comes in for the biggest fee ever and becomes a useful squad player, he has not really been successful.

Blatter

Darren Can ‏@Darren_Can
Earlier:Ferguson reported absent from tour due to "club business." Now: his media mouthpiece Bob Cass says Lucas Moura set for #MUFC medical



Here's the article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2183770/Manchester-United-splash-50m-Lucas-Moura-Robin-Van-Persie-Glazers-send-signal.html?ito=feeds-newsxml