Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Mitch Connor

Uniteds attempts to sign a new player hits new lows

Link

IamtheWalrus

€45M is too much of a risk. Money best spent elsewhere (even though I don't think it will be).

DM_7

bucketybuck wrote: »

Paul Pogba, Ravel Morrison and Zeke Fryers would disagree with you on that point.

Likes of Butt, Fletcher, Beckham, Giggs, G. Neville, P. Neville, Scholes, O' Shea, Brown, Evans, Welbeck, Cleverley would agree.

that excludes the young players purchased from other clubs, like Rooney, Keane, Ronaldo, Jones etc.

The Ravel example is lol worthy.
Pogba and Fryers were involved in the first team set up and got some game time as well so I wouldn't be holding them up as examples of SAF not giving young players a chance. Was he supposed to start them in 20 games each when they were not ready (in the managers mind) for regular action in the first team yet?

Hogey007

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

€45M is too much of a risk. Money best spent elsewhere (even though I don't think it will be).

money would def be better spent elsewhere as in central midfield but can't see it happening. Hope I'm wrong but seems to following the same pattern of previous seasons, a couple of signings, some big "bids" in but nothing happens.
The old line that we tried to sign players will be used while the ronaldo money and all these 30 millions we were getting each season slowly disappear.

Sgt Pepper 64

Not surprised about Lucas.
As Chelsea have found, these clubs use other clubs interest to get a pay rise or a bigger price from other clubs.
Unfortunately once Wagner Ribeiro is involved there is usually only one outcome, the greedy so and so.

IamtheWalrus

The issue with Utd's waning appeal coupled with them not willing to pay silly money means it is increasingly more difficult to attract the best players to OT. Just a fact that's not going to change very soon.

Jame Gumb

It's easy to be critical of Pogba, but if you were him and you were forced to watch from the bench as a right back (Rafael) played in midfield because of an injury crisis, it'd be very difficult not to say "f..k these guys...I'm on my way".

Just chills the heart to hear Pogba declaring that he "will be better than Viera".

Jame Gumb

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The issue with Utd's waning appeal coupled with them not willing to pay silly money means it is increasingly more difficult to attract the best players to OT. Just a fact that's not going to change very soon.

It probably will actually with Financial Fair Play.

Look at the teams paying silly money:

City - Insolvent were it not for the support of Sheikh Mansour

Chelsea - Insolvent were it not for the support of Roman Abramovich

PSG - Insolvent were it not for the support of the Qataris

If (and that's a big if) it's imposed to the letter of the law, teams like United, Arsenal and Bayern Munich will prosper while teams like City will be f..ked.

redalan

Jame Gumb wrote: »

It's easy to be critical of Pogba, but if you were him and you were forced to watch from the bench as a right back (Rafael) played in midfield because of an injury crisis, it'd be very difficult not to say "f..k these guys...I'm on my way".

Just chills the heart to hear Pogba declaring that he "will be better than Viera".

You cant throw a stick at a French football team without hitting a player who "will be better than Viera"

Sgt Pepper 64

DM-ICE wrote: »

Likes of Butt, Fletcher, Beckham, Giggs, G. Neville, P. Neville, Scholes, O' Shea, Brown, Evans, Welbeck, Cleverley would agree.

that excludes the young players purchased from other clubs, like Rooney, Keane, Ronaldo, Jones etc.

The Ravel example is lol worthy.
Pogba and Fryers were involved in the first team set up and got some game time as well so I wouldn't be holding them up as examples of SAF not giving young players a chance. Was he supposed to start them in 20 games each when they were not ready (in the managers mind) for regular action in the first team yet?

Beckham, Giggs, G. Neville, P. Neville, Scholes (and more) were part of the golden period for Utd, when the youth team produced exceptional talent that just happened to all flourish at the same time. Similiar to what happened at Barca a few years ago.
Its very rare to get that type of quantity and quality all at the same time.

Plus it happened before the big money clubs started to appear and when it was normal to play youth if you could rather than bulk buy in established talent or buy in youth

Jame Gumb

Remember Bruno Cheyrou?

"The New Zidane"

PhlegmyMoses

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The issue with Utd's waning appeal

Can you explain why you think this is the case?

TheDoc

Pj! wrote: »

So there's Hazard and Moura we lost. Losses which will effect the team in years to come.

Not a great few months for United.

Hardly.

Both players have massively inflated opinions of themselves and are being led along like blind sheep by their agents.

The decisions they will/have taken, are not based on their future, development and football, but on their agents and monetary gain.

I trust SAF when he makes decisions on players and most often then not he is spot on.

United have a long history of success, stability, developement and care of young players and hot prospects. There is enough of them in recent history, nevermind the "golden generation" of youngsters , to impress any youngster who has the pick of Europes elite at his feet.

Any player that hums and haughs and stalls over United, for me, is instantly in it for the money, and is the sort of character we do not want.

Hazard and Moura might well turn out to be class. They also might well end up being expensive flops, especially Moura, who could join a growing pile of expensive Brazillian flashes in the pan.

Everyone had a **** attack when we missed out on Rhonaldhino. Who had 2-3 years of amazing success at Barca, and became a destructive force in the dressing room, lost all focus and professionalism and became a drifter.

Everyone had a **** attack when we shipped of Morrison. Who has now even being ****ed off by West Ham...

Simply put if you get an offer for United, and you hesitate, your just not the sort of person we are looking for.

Kagawa is a perfect example, number of clubs in his for him, minute United popped up he made his decision. All the more reason he will probably do well for us.

From reports it also appears Mouras family, relatives and the local shepard were looking for a piece of the action, which signals he is a bit easily strayed. Probably not the sort of character SAF or United want.

Had his chance, best of luck to him with PSG, he can let us know how he gets on.

Sgt Pepper 64

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Can you explain why you think this is the case?

Thats nonsense, its purely down to money and greedy agents

Shiny kawaga was suitably impressed with Utd!

Arent you still sniffing around Witsel? Would be a good signing for you

v3ttel

Jame Gumb wrote: »

It's easy to be critical of Pogba, but if you were him and you were forced to watch from the bench as a right back (Rafael) played in midfield because of an injury crisis, it'd be very difficult not to say "f..k these guys...I'm on my way".

That was one game. It would be a valid point if it happened on a regular basis. Fergie made a mistake with the team selection that day. It happens because he is human.

If Pogba made his decision on the back of one game, good riddance. Take a look at Berbatov. IMHO, he was majorly hard done by last season as regards playing time (not just one game, but regularly), and conducted himself properly. And that was a guy who was the leagues top scorer the season before last, not a 19 year old unproven kid.

I look forward to Pogba playing ahead of Pirlo, Vidal, Asamoah, Marchisio, etc. on a regular basis next season.

Quandary

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Just chills the heart to hear Pogba declaring that he "will be better than Viera".

Pogba leaving hurt the most, no doubt about it. Anytime I saw Pogba getting a run out for the first team I was always impressed. He has an ability to cover huge amounts of ground and still seem like he's cantering around, great athleticism, surprisingly comfortable on the ball given his build, solid passer and a great shot on him.

I honestly thought he looked good enough to be starting quite a few of our games last season.

Imagine what it must be like to be a very talented young midfielder watching from the bench as your team is getting battered in midfield and your manager won't even give you 5 minutes.

I got excited last season every time Fergie had him on the bench. Why the fcuk didn't he just throw the lad in at th deep end a few times. It's not like he could have done any worse than some of the players who played cm last year (Giggs, Park etc...)

I know no one wants to dwell on how the whole Pogba saga panned out but fcuk me we lost out on it.:(

DM_7

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

Beckham, Giggs, G. Neville, P. Neville, Scholes (and more) were part of the golden period for Utd, when the youth team produced exceptional talent that just happened to all flourish at the same time. Similiar to what happened at Barca a few years ago.
Its very rare to get that type of quantity and quality all at the same time.

Plus it happened before the big money clubs started to appear and when it was normal to play youth if you could rather than bulk buy in established talent or buy in youth

Whats your point.

my original point was SAF has a record for looking to young players (not just homegrown) when it is not the obvious thing to do.

nothing you said in the above points towards anything else.

A poster mentioning Pogba, Fryers and Morrison as contrary examples but ignoring how Wlebeck and Clev were brought in last season or De Gea was bought led to me going back further to prove my point.

DM_7

Rooney10 wrote: »

That was one game. It would be a valid point if it happened on a regular basis. Fergie made a mistake with the team selection that day. It happens because he is human.

And Humans put faith in people they trust, as a coach he naturally trusts people that have done a job for him in the past in big games.

As much as he likes to give youth a chance he also wouldn't put a young player in unless he really believed he was ready. In this case Pogba was only in the youth team the season before. I wouldn't have picked him either tbh.

IamtheWalrus

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Can you explain why you think this is the case?

Utd just aren't the draw they were. If you are going to play in the Premiership, Chelsea (money/London/trophies)) and Man City (money/trophies) are more appealing to non-UK players. Spain is a bigger draw now.

Maybe Utd are unwilling to pay huge agents fees too.

Copper_pipe

Latest Twitter gossip is that RVP is booked for a medical at bridgewater hospital, However this a Hospital that United and City both use for medicals

Mitch Connor

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Latest Twitter gossip is that RVP is booked for a medical at bridgewater hospital, However this a Hospital that United and City both use for medicals

Not believing that for one second. I don't think we would get to the medical stage without confirmation of a deal in place - the transfer is simply too big.

JimsAlterEgo

Copper_pipe wrote: »

Latest Twitter gossip is that RVP is booked for a medical at bridgewater hospital, However this a Hospital that United and City both use for medicals

hope its not the same place Hargreaves did his

Jame Gumb

Rooney10 wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

It's easy to be critical of Pogba, but if you were him and you were forced to watch from the bench as a right back (Rafael) played in midfield because of an injury crisis, it'd be very difficult not to say "f..k these guys...I'm on my way".

That was one game. It would be a valid point if it happened on a regular basis. Fergie made a mistake with the team selection that day. It happens because he is human.

If Pogba made his decision on the back of one game, good riddance. Take a look at Berbatov. IMHO, he was majorly hard done by last season as regards playing time (not just one game, but regularly), and conducted himself properly. And that was a guy who was the leagues top scorer the season before last, not a 19 year old unproven kid.

I look forward to Pogba playing ahead of Pirlo, Vidal, Asamoah, Marchisio, etc. on a regular basis next season.

Sorry, but I don't agree. It's an entirely valid point. It was the one game where there were no CMs available. It's reasonable for Pogba to assume that he's no chance of 1st team action for the foreseeable future on the basis that when Fergie's back was to the wall and he had zero midfielders, he chose to stick a fullback in there.

If somebody's line manager goes on sabbatical and the ultimate boss replaces him with someone from another department rather than temporarily promoting from within, it's reasonable for the underlings to assume that they've little chance of promotion in the short term and move on.

We'll never know, but I suspect that Pogba decided to move on that day. That was very bad man management from Sir Alex. Talk about destroying a young man's self confidence and sense of worth.

Sgt Pepper 64

DM-ICE wrote: »

Whats your point.

my original point was SAF has a record for looking to young players (not just homegrown) when it is not the obvious thing to do.

nothing you said in the above points towards anything else.

A poster mentioning Pogba, Fryers and Morrison as contrary examples but ignoring how Wlebeck and Clev were brought in last season or De Gea was bought led to me going back further to prove my point.

I wasnt arguing with you just making the same point really!

(Although I disagree about the SAF being the only one looking to youth players - how do you think clubs had any players at all prior to the Premier league money? And even then "smaller" clubs haave to look to youth cos they cant afford to buy a whole team!)

Sgt Pepper 64

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Utd just aren't the draw they were. If you are going to play in the Premiership, Chelsea (money/London/trophies)) and Man City (money/trophies) are more appealing to non-UK players. Spain is a bigger draw now.

Maybe Utd are unwilling to pay huge agents fees too.

All english clubs, Utd, Chelsea and City are really feeder clubs to Spain and the lure of RM and Barca and that isnt going to change any time soon!

Schism

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Utd just aren't the draw they were. If you are going to play in the Premiership, Chelsea (money/London/trophies)) and Man City (money/trophies) are more appealing to non-UK players. Spain is a bigger draw now.

Maybe Utd are unwilling to pay huge agents fees too.

United are still able to adequately compensate players and rarely go a season without silverware.

It's more that City and Chelsea have increased their appeal than United losing theirs I think.

donalg1

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

All english clubs, Utd, Chelsea and City are really feeder clubs to Spain and the lure of RM and Barca and that isnt going to change any time soon!

Agree with this, I am a Utd fan and if I was playing for Utd for 4 or 5 years and Real or Barca came in some serious thought would have to be given to it, the whole lifestyle in Spain, the history of those two clubs, hell even the weather would be a factor after a few rainy years in Manchester.

So even if I would give it some thought and being a fan of Utd then I can only imagine what players that didnt grow up supporting Utd would think if Real or Barca came in for them.

kippy

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The issue with Utd's waning appeal coupled with them not willing to pay silly money means it is increasingly more difficult to attract the best players to OT. Just a fact that's not going to change very soon.

When have united ever been able to attract the perceived best players (particularily those from outside of the uk)?
They've always either bought them young for somewhat sane money or developed them within the club.

This guy would cost North of 30 odd million pounds and what exactly is "best" about him?
Price tags and wages do not always directly correlate with effectiveness within a club.

Al Capwned

K
A
G
A
W
A

__________

Spell the bloody thing properly man.

The_Kew_Tour

I still dont think RVP will come to United. Its about 5th time I have said it, but I be stunned if United sign him.

Mitch Connor

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I still dont think RVP will come to United. Its about 5th time I have said it, but I be stunned if United sign him.

Why do you feel the need to say it so often, and then comment on that fact?

The_Kew_Tour

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to say it so often, and then comment on that fact?

People will believe anything and Twitter.

PhlegmyMoses

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Utd just aren't the draw they were. If you are going to play in the Premiership, Chelsea (money/London/trophies)) and Man City (money/trophies) are more appealing to non-UK players. Spain is a bigger draw now.

Maybe Utd are unwilling to pay huge agents fees too.

Were United ever that big a draw? We were never buying the Ronaldos, Zidanes and Figos in any era under SAF.

Apart from Veron, I can't remember any big name foreign player joining us. Even then, he had heard a lot about us considering his father played for the Estudiantes team that tore us a new one in 68.

We are still a big enough draw to sign one of the best players in Germany and hot prospects like Jones and De Gea.

Edit: Just saw Kippy's post which pretty much says the same thing. Sorry mate.

TheDoc

The ****emill is reporting we have lined up a bid for Moutinho, and RVP should be wrapped up this week.

The IPO did state expected expenditure on transfer this summer to be roughly £50. So we still have a large amount to throw about.

If SAF pulling away from Moura is true ( at this point hope so) Moutinho might be a viable transfer, and wrapping up MC concerns

DM_7

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

I wasnt arguing with you just making the same point really!

(Although I disagree about the SAF being the only one looking to youth players - how do you think clubs had any players at all prior to the Premier league money? And even then "smaller" clubs haave to look to youth cos they cant afford to buy a whole team!)

I didn't mean to look like I was talking about the smaller teams.

I am talking about teams with the resources to buy or with experienced players already in place and teams operating under an expectation to win trophies.

But SAF often gave chances to younger players when he thought they could peform in his side even though he had the finances to go out and buy experienced players and had to deal with the huge expectation levels.

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I still dont think RVP will come to United. Its about 5th time I have said it, but I be stunned if United sign him.

The stuff going about is pretty accurate. I don't think it such a surprise.

RVP upfront with Rooney, that is scary. What is also provides is good rotating, potent options to use in Europe and in the league (cups).

That provides us with a striking department of Rooney, RVP, Chico, Wellbeck, Berba ( at present)

That is a front line that will cause serious threat all year round, and we hopefully won't suffer when Rooney hits his inevitable dip in form at some point.

Contrast RVP to the Moura situation. Here is a guy who can go where he wants in Europe and command any price. If it does conclude, it shows he is making decisions for the right reason, and will more then likely do well.

Plus while there is noise about RVP injuries, dont forget it could be the scenario that he is finally over them.

And what more could you want then a guy who has all the ability to be world class, has been hampered for years, and his first fit season fires in 20+ goals?

Take him to a team who will be fitting for titles, and unleash him.

I'm actually giddy as **** to see him in a United shirt if it goes through.....

And as said above, pulling out from Moura free up the guts of £30m for a spend, a serious CM and we could be in for a mindblowing summer of transfers.

I havnt had this much excitement in YEARs for a MUFC transfer window, and I think everyone is negative because of recent years, instead od in the 90's when we got linked with someone it was " o ****ing yes"

DM_7

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't agree. It's an entirely valid point. It was the one game where there were no CMs available. It's reasonable for Pogba to assume that he's no chance of 1st team action for the foreseeable future on the basis that when Fergie's back was to the wall and he had zero midfielders, he chose to stick a fullback in there.

We'll never know, but I suspect that Pogba decided to move on that day. That was very bad man management from Sir Alex. Talk about destroying a young man's self confidence and sense of worth.

Yes a 19 year old, involved in a contract dispute - perfect player to come in and start his first premier league game when the midfield needed players with some level of experience.

Actually No.

The time to play a young guy is when experienced players are in a settled team to help him.

Not on a day where Carrick is playing in central defence, Valencia is at right back, Welbeck is wide midfield. It doesn't add up to bad man management for SAF to decide it was a bad time to play Pogba.

On the man management point you also have no idea what conversations went on between coaches and players during that period or what players decided as a result of the managers decisions.

A true reflection of how the manager operates can be seen by looking back to how Clev and Welbeck were played ahead of experienced players at the start of last season. Carrick, Fletcher, Berbatov, Hernandez - were all left out of the team for the younger players. Younger players that SAF thought were actually ready to play which is a key differance.

Pogba would be well aware of that, maybe he wasn't prepared to wait like Welbeck or Cleverley - that is another matter, its also fair enough for him to make that decision. Good luck to him.


EDIT: actually to correct myself I think Pogba was 18 at the time rather than 19. Not that it matters, he had the same level of experience in first team football.

EDIT2: even playing Pogba so Val could play wide right, raf at right back he would still be stuck playing with Park beside him in midfield. Thats how you ruin a young players self confidence!

chainsawman

RVP will only go for the club that offered him bigger pay package, Wont blame him though, he had just turned 29 yesterday or sunday, he is getting into the end of his playing days, the strikers tend to fizzle out in the early thirties, Only the Goalies and centre backs can go on to the late thirties. So Sir Alex wont spend silly money on RVP.He was right to offer only £10.

The_Kew_Tour

TheDoc wrote: »

The stuff going about is pretty accurate. I don't think it such a surprise.

Good post and I agree with everything you said bar above.

There been lot of made up stores been shed about too.

Listen I will be glad to eat my hat if he comes, but people get easily excited about the first hint of rumours these days(I used to be like that fwiw)

DM_7

I half agree with you Chainsaw man, but I don''t think the biggest pay cheque is RVP's only motivation. He is not going to undersell himself of course.

The chance to win trophies must be a big part of him seeking a move at this moment. Arsenal have had a terrible run and he missed out on winning in a World Cup final, nowhere in the euro's. Time is running out for trophies.

He would still have a chance for a big pay day later in his career by heading to China, Qatar , places like that.

kippy

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Good post and I agree with everything you said bar above.

There been lot of made up stores been shed about too.

Listen I will be glad to eat my hat if he comes, but people get easily excited about the first hint of rumours these days(I used to be like that fwiw)

I'd be doubtful of RvP ending up at United either.
He's just another in a long line of players linked with United in the past few days, never mind months.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Transfer-Speculation/2012/Aug/manchester-united-transfer-rumours-and-gossip-august-2012.aspx

Vic Vinegar

kippy wrote: »

I'd be doubtful of RvP ending up at United either.
He's just another in a long line of players linked with United in the past few days, never mind months.
http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Transfer-Speculation/2012/Aug/manchester-united-transfer-rumours-and-gossip-august-2012.aspx

Thing is though, we are definitely after Van Persie and Moura, Fergie confirmed this... Its not your typical idle speculation like most of the other ones.

adox

chainsawman wrote: »

RVP will only go for the club that offered him bigger pay package, Wont blame him though, he had just turned 29 yesterday or sunday, he is getting into the end of his playing days, the strikers tend to fizzle out in the early thirties, Only the Goalies and centre backs can go on to the late thirties. So Sir Alex wont spend silly money on RVP.He was right to offer only £10.

Didnt he say he wanted to move to a club with tradition and history and a chance of winning things?

Maximus Alexander

For whatever reason, I can't possibly believe that RVP will end up at United.

It would still be the most bat**** insanely awesome thing to happen in a while though.

Corvo

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

For whatever reason, I can't possibly believe that RVP will end up at United.

It would still be the most bat**** insanely awesome thing to happen in a while though.

Agreed. Everytime I think of how it won't happen, I just imagine himself and Rooney up front and nearly cream myself

v3ttel

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Just chills the heart to hear Pogba declaring that he "will be better than Viera".

Jame Gumb wrote: »

That was very bad man management from Sir Alex. Talk about destroying a young man's self confidence and sense of worth.

Sorry, does not compute.

Jax Teller

Evans could be fit for Everton game and Smalling has had a set back so he will be out for longer than expected .

http://www.manutd.com/en/Tour2012Teaser/Tour2012News/2012/Aug/mike-phelan-hopeful-on-jonny-evans-return.aspx#

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Good post and I agree with everything you said bar above.

There been lot of made up stores been shed about too.

Listen I will be glad to eat my hat if he comes, but people get easily excited about the first hint of rumours these days(I used to be like that fwiw)

I guess if your into the hussle and bussle of transfer windows, with a bit of digging you can find out what the hell is going on. Essentially they are some people who just rehash existing rumours, but there are some people that generate chatter from source.

Alot of pretty reputible rumour merchants, and even journalists have put their name on RVP been wrapped up this week, and that has pretty severe consequences if wrong.

The same on the moura thing, the guys reporting the first hand material, have been pretty spot on, even outlining SAF walking away while papers are still saying deal is done.

Corvo

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Evans could be fit for Everton game and Smalling has had a set back so he will be out for longer than expected .

http://www.manutd.com/en/Tour2012Teaser/Tour2012News/2012/Aug/mike-phelan-hopeful-on-jonny-evans-return.aspx#

As long as Vidic is back I honestly think I would be delighted even if all the rest of the defenders were out. Can't wait to see him back.

Donnielighto

Griffin1988 wrote: »

As long as Vidic is back I honestly think I would be delighted even if all the rest of the defenders were out. Can't wait to see him back.

1-4-5 formation with vidic back by himself? plenty of games for the wingers so