Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Professional Griefer

Almost forgot the game tonight. Kick off is 7:20.

Squad is De Gea, Lindegaard; Evra, Ferdinand, M Keane, Vidic; Anderson, Bebe, Robbie Brady, Michael Carrick, Tom Cleverley, Ryan Giggs, Nani, Young, Valencia; Berbatov, Hernandez, Kagawa, Rooney.

Can't wait for some Shinji magic.

VW 1

Keno 92 wrote: »

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It strikes me that although we don't need RVP, he'll shift a fair few shirts anyway...

Genius.

Spend 20mil on a player and hope to make a profit on shirt sales.

Sure isn't that the only reason Kagawa is even on the team!

Probably why Real bought Ronaldo and Beckham.

Even if United got 25% of every shirt sold (which they dont, im sure someone here knows the exact amount but it is pretty small) that's 1.3 million shirts.

Would anyone honestly believe that 1.3m people, who wouldn't have bought a shirt otherwise, would buy one just because RVP signed for us?

keane2097

VW 1 wrote: »

Probably why Real bought Ronaldo and Beckham.

Even if United got 25% of every shirt sold (which they dont, im sure someone here knows the exact amount but it is pretty small) that's 1.3 million shirts.

Would anyone honestly believe that 1.3m people, who wouldn't have bought a shirt otherwise, would buy one just because RVP signed for us?

Let's count them, I'm one anyway - who else?

Lord TSC

*Puts hand up*

Maximus Alexander

Yeah me too.

Although I'm still considering Bebe.

Al Capwned

One more.....

Purely for the lols and bants

keane2097

That's two in a minute, which extrapolates to 20,160 new jerseys in a week, or 1,048,320 in a year. I think it's fair to say we've proven the deal is commercially viable.

EDIT: Christ, up to four now, which is obv over 2.1M jerseys, we'd be throwing money away not to sign him IMO.

Al Capwned

keane2097 wrote: »

That's two in a minute, which extrapolates to 20,160 new jerseys in a week, or 1,048,320 in a year. I think it's fair to say we've proven the deal is commercially viable.

EDIT: Christ, up to four now, which is obv over 2.1M jerseys, we'd be throwing money away not to sign him IMO.

I'd have one for my son too....
Maths?

Maximus Alexander

Forgetting about shirt sales, I'd be delighted with Van Persie, especially if Berbatov is on the way out.

Think of last season's injury crisis. Imagine if the same thing happened up front this year.

Let's say Rooney picks tears a ligament and Welbeck keeps pulling his hamstring (or whatever it is he normally does). That would leave us with Kagawa and Hernandez for a chunk of the season. Not bad options, but there would be no cover, so God forbid one of them gets tired or picks up a niggle.

World class cover in the form of RVP? Yes please. Even barring injuries, what a bloody option to have.

Jame Gumb

I doubt that RVP would be signed as cover...

cloptrop

Is nobody of the opinion alex has decided chico and welbeck arnt good enough yet and rvp is one of the best in the world at what he does .
All sentimentalities aside id rather rvp in the starting 11 than chico. Until chico ups his game thats the way it has to be.

Cantona's Collars

Remember the good old days when we had Yorke,Cole,Sheringham & Solskjaer.No complaints then over having 4 strikers & now we are in with a chance to have the same,2 of them proven world class players & 2 rising stars yet some people are still unhappy.

Rooney carried a lot of the burden of being the senior striker last season & at times his game suffered,having another experienced striker at the club will do no harm at all.

Maximus Alexander

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I doubt that RVP would be signed as cover...

Well that's not really what I meant, and perhaps I phrased it badly. My point is, I'm not buying into the "We don't need another striker" argument. I'll take RVP any day of the week.

PHB

I don't think anyone will be angry that RVP is signing, he's a fantastic player who I think will work fantastically well with Welbeck and Rooney. The problem I have is that not only is it nowhere near the area where we need to improve, but by buying another top class striker, we're locking ourselves even more into a 4-4-2. That's fine, except at the core of that is a ****ing end to end central midfielder ala Keane, Hargreaves or even Fletcher.

If Fergie fails to sign a defensive midfielder this year it will show that he is starting/continuing to utterly lose his ability to manage Manchester United.

I've no doubt that we'll be there or abouts in the league, after all, it's simply about beating the bottom 14 consistantly, but without a proper midfielder brought in, we've no chance in the Champions League whatsoever.

Jame Gumb

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

I doubt that RVP would be signed as cover...

Well that's not really what I meant, and perhaps I phrased it badly. My point is, I'm not buying into the "We don't need another striker" argument. I'll take RVP any day of the week.

I'm starting to agree the more I think about it.

I'm a massive Chicharito fan, but his naivety and poor first touch were exposed against Barca in the CL final.

Fergie only had a few years left and the signing of RVP looks like it might be part of a push for 2/3 glorious years.

I accept that playing Rooney and RVP together might expose the midfield but Rooney could drop in there and help when United dont have the ball.

If we have Rooney, RVP, Nani, Kagawa and Valencia working together in attack...my God.

PHB

Jame Gumb wrote: »

If we have Rooney, RVP, Nani, Kagawa and Valencia working together in attack...my God.

It'll be amazing. Think of all that movement up front, sadly it'll be them chasing down the defenders because our complete lack of a central midfield will mean we won't be able to retain possession.

_blank_

PHB wrote: »

The problem I have is that not only is it nowhere near the area where we need to improve,

Lost the league on Goal Difference.

Buy one of the best strikers in the league.

Makes sense.

Good and all as Welbeck and Chico are, they are not on the same planet as RVP at the moment. And I doubt if Chico ever will be tbh. He doesn't understand offside at all, for a start.

Jame Gumb

I've consistently being saying that we don't need RVP and that we shouldn't sign him because the priority should be improving the midfield and strengthening at fullback.

However, it appears that there's money there to do all of the above, so on that basis, sign him up Fergie. He's better than Chico and Wellbeck - Maybe they'll learn from him. Then just use the additional funds that we're told you have to sign Sahin and Baines.

De Gea
Rafael Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Valencia Sahin Nani
Kagawa
Rooney Van Persie

What a team...

Al Capwned

zerks wrote: »

Remember the good old days when we had Yorke,Cole,Sheringham & Solskjaer.No complaints then over having 4 strikers & now we are in with a chance to have the same,2 of them proven world class players & 2 rising stars yet some people are still unhappy.

But the thing is though, that the signing of Kagawa surely indicates a move away from 442. It looks like it's gonna primarily be Kagawa behind Rooney.
Bring van Persie into the mix, and there is little or no chance of Welbeck, and more so Hernandez getting a lot of game time, as it would probably see Rooney behind van Persie, with Kagawa doing the left sided thing he does for Japan. But then, what of Nani, if Valencia is starting on the right?

The signing of van Persie would definitely give Fergie options in the 'front 6'. A lot of options, but personally i'd rather see the money being lumped at a proven, quality central midfielder - gotta agree with PHB - we have no chance in Europe without improvements in the middle.

Jame Gumb

We seem to have the readies to do it all though (buy RVP and buy anyone we want for midfield). Fergie either doesn't want to strengthen the midfield or else he's going to do it.

Either way, RVP would improve us so I've changed my mind...sign him up

MagicMarker

Oh how exciting, "The One" will be part of the pre-match coverage on MUTV tonight.

Al Capwned

Jame Gumb wrote: »

We seem to have the readies to do it all though (buy RVP and buy anyone we want for midfield). Fergie either doesn't want to strengthen the midfield or else he's going to do it.

Either way, RVP would improve us so I've changed my mind...sign him up

It's not as if I don't want him to sign, though - he would improve us, without a doubt, so if there is a chance of getting him, go get him.

But not at the expense of a more pressing need in the centre of midfield. If it's an either/or situation then a midfielder must be the priority, but if we can get both, well yeah go for it!

Maximus Alexander

It seems to me that Fergie is looking to see if Anderson can shít this season (or get off the pot next summer?), if Fletcher can return to fitness and if Cleverley can deliver on his early-season promise from last year.

Admittedly, Anderson has probably had enough chances. But with the potential of those three players, who are still on the books, along with Carrick, Giggs, Scholes and Powell, I can see why he would be reluctant to spend the fee required to bring in another midfielder.

United actually have a lot of CMs on the books, it's just horribly unfortunate that all of them have a fatal flaw (with the possible exception of Carrick).

Mitch Connor

RVP is going to end up at City - Mancini is talking up the move to United too much; and showing too much anger about it. They'll swoop in and get the deal done if it looks like we are close.

Blatter

Mitch Connor wrote: »

RVP is going to end up at City - Mancini is talking up the move to United too much; and showing too much anger about it. They'll swoop in and get the deal done if it looks like we are close.

Back it then, you can get 8/1 on him joining City.

Jame Gumb

alproctor wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

We seem to have the readies to do it all though (buy RVP and buy anyone we want for midfield). Fergie either doesn't want to strengthen the midfield or else he's going to do it.

Either way, RVP would improve us so I've changed my mind...sign him up

It's not as if I don't want him to sign, though - he would improve us, without a doubt, so if there is a chance of getting him, go get him.

But not at the expense of a more pressing need in the centre of midfield. If it's an either/or situation then a midfielder must be the priority, but if we can get both, well yeah go for it!

I agree 100%

If it's an "either/or" scenario, a midfielder should be the priority.

It doesn't seem to be though, so let's do it all!

bucketybuck

zerks wrote: »

Remember the good old days when we had Yorke,Cole,Sheringham & Solskjaer.No complaints then over having 4 strikers & now we are in with a chance to have the same,2 of them proven world class players & 2 rising stars yet some people are still unhappy.

Do you remember the good old days when we played 4-4-2 and needed four frontline strikers? Don't you realise that we already have four strikers already?

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It seems to me that Fergie is looking to see if Anderson can shít this season (or get off the pot next summer?), if Fletcher can return to fitness and if Cleverley can deliver on his early-season promise from last year.

It seems to me that Fergie also did this last summer, when the talk was all about how we needed a CM, yet Fergie seemed to want to wait and see regarding Anderson, Cleverly and Fletchers fitness. Considering how that all worked out last season it would be horrible mismanagement to take that same approach again.

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

It seems to me that Fergie also did this last summer, when the talk was all about how we needed a CM, yet Fergie seemed to want to wait and see regarding Anderson, Cleverly and Fletchers fitness. Considering how that all worked out last season it would be horrible mismanagement to take that same approach again.

I think his judgement was proved correct in the first few games of last season. He can't be expected to have known that Cleverley would be out for most of the season or that Fletcher would prove to have a chronic illness. Anderson, yeah, probably should have seen that coming.

Likewise, there is no reason for him to expect the same issues to repeat this year. Cleverley is fit, Scholes is back in the squad for the start of this season, Powell has been added as an option, and we don't know what information he has on Fletcher.

As much as I'd love a marquee midfield signing, there are seven CMs on the books. We are actually over-stocked. "Horrible mismanagement" is a silly statement.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

As much as I'd love a marquee midfield signing, there are seven CMs on the books. We are actually over-stocked. "Horrible mismanagement" is a silly statement.

Seven CM's?

Giggs should have retired already.

Scholes should have stayed retired. He did fantastic last season, but his age cannot be ignored, and yes it is horrible mismanagement to plan for a Premier league campaign depending on 37/38 year olds.

Fletcher missed the majority of the season before last, his medical issues were known long before the news became public. He cannot be counted as an option.

Powell is a complete unknown, you cannot plan a title challenge with him as a first teamer.

Anderson has never been fit.

Cleverly is completely over rated on here but hey, perhaps he will have a good season.

And Carrick.

Sorry, but if City had those seven players as their midfield options I would be delighted. If Liverpool had those seven as their midfield and expressed any optimism the people in this thread would be laughing at them and calling them deluded.

Vertigo100

keane2097 wrote: »

Let's count them, I'm one anyway - who else?

Definitely me. My two nephews are arsenal fans. It's all I would wear to their house!

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

Seven CM's?

Giggs should have retired already.

Scholes should have stayed retired. He did fantastic last season, but his age cannot be ignored, and yes it is horrible mismanagement to plan for a Premier league campaign depending on 37/38 year olds.

Fletcher missed the majority of the season before last, his medical issues were known long before the news became public. He cannot be counted as an option.

Powell is a complete unknown, you cannot plan a title challenge with him as a first teamer.

Anderson has never been fit.

Cleverly is completely over rated on here but hey, perhaps he will have a good season.

And Carrick.

Sorry, but if City had those seven players as their midfield options I would be delighted. If Liverpool had those seven as their midfield and expressed any optimism the people in this thread would be laughing at them and calling them deluded.

Even if I agreed with you on all of those points (hint: I don't), it doesn't change the fact that those 7 CMs exist and are contracted to the club. And are being paid.

Most likely it would be necessary to shift some of them before signing another would be realistic. How successful do you think you would be if you tried to sell Anderson or Fletcher this summer? Even for free?

Jame Gumb

United's midfield may be overstocked in terms of numbers, but it's understocked in terms of quality.

What's our aim? To win the Champions League and to win the Premiership. To do so, it's likely that we'll have to overcome Manchester City, Barcelona and Real Madrid, all of whom have midfields that are far superior to ours.

In my view, it's nuts to claim that United's midfield doesn't need an injection of quality. Of course it's good relative to the rest of the league, but relative to the rest of the side and relative to our rivals, it's substandard.

double GG

I fcuking despise people who think Scholes and Giggs are finished and saying they should have retired years ago.


Were you saying that when Giggs scored that goal away to Norwich? Well shut up! Yes he isn't anywhere near his best but he brings so much to the dressing room as well as the pitch. Imagine Powell, A player relatively unknown to many less than 12 months ago and now he's in the dressing room beside the best Winger in the history of the Premier League. Just think of the advice, the words of wisdom and the feeling Powell and others get from playing beside such lads as Scholes and Giggs.

Giggs is still playing at an extremely high level.

Scholes was fantastic when he came back into the team. Carrick played 100% better once Scholes came back. Scholes is still playing at a level above 95% of midfielders in the world. His passing is second to none and just the experience he brings to the team is amazing. He is still well able to complete 70-80 minutes in every match no problem.

Giggs and Scholes still have a lot to give to this side.

Maximus Alexander

Jame Gumb wrote: »

In my view, it's nuts to claim that United's midfield doesn't need an injection of quality. Of course it's good relative to the rest of the league, but relative to the rest of the side and relative to our rivals, it's substandard.

If that's aimed at me, I never said it didn't need an injection of quality. Just that it won't be getting one.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Even if I agreed with you on all of those points (hint: I don't), it doesn't change the fact that those 7 CMs exist and are contracted to the club. And are being paid.

Most likely it would be necessary to shift some of them before signing another would be realistic. How successful do you think you would be if you tried to sell Anderson or Fletcher this summer? Even for free?

Shift some of them! Seriously?

You are including two 37/38 year olds as two of your seven, you really don't think retirement is the sensible option?

You are including a guy who with all due respect, is very unlikely to ever play again because of medical issues. Shift him? He is already gone.

You also include an 18 year old who could be anything or nothing. He should no more be counted upon than any other 18 year old in the academy.

You state we are top heavy with CM, with seven on the books. I say that number is overinflated with names that aren't actually viable. Might as well say that we have 14 central midfielders, include the tea lady and some of the under 12's as our options. They are as likely to contribute as Fletcher is.

If Fergie thinks he is planning for a title challenge with seven center midfielders then he really is guilty of mismanagement, because that is an awful assessment of his resources.

dahat

double GG wrote: »

I fcuking despise people who think Scholes and Giggs are finished and saying they should have retired years ago.


Were you saying that when Giggs scored that goal away to Norwich? Well shut up! Yes he isn't anywhere near his best but he brings so much to the dressing room as well as the pitch. Imagine Powell, A player relatively unknown to many less than 12 months ago and now he's in the dressing room beside the best Winger in the history of the Premier League. Just think of the advice, the words of wisdom and the feeling Powell and others get from playing beside such lads as Scholes and Giggs.

Giggs is still playing at an extremely high level.

Scholes was fantastic when he came back into the team. Carrick played 100% better once Scholes came back. Scholes is still playing at a level above 95% of midfielders in the world. His passing is second to none and just the experience he brings to the team is amazing. He is still well able to complete 70-80 minutes in every match no problem.

Giggs and Scholes still have a lot to give to this side.

Take off the red coloured glasses,Scholes played half a season with little or no CL invovlemnt,while he improved the team one could argue would he have had the same impact over a full season,my answer would be no........
Giggs has long been a bit part with the ability to produce moments of magic at any given moment in any game but in general is on the downgrade a while.....
We were over run in midfield on many occasions last season.......

edgecutter

We were outclassed in so many games last season in midfield. The game against city which decided the title effectively, we were bossed. We never got a foot hold of the game as toure bossed it.

We need new bodies in midfield. Scholes and Giggs ain't going to roll back the years time and time again. We need to begin the difficult process of replacing them.

Anderson has been unlucky, but he has had so man chances to prove his worth and hasn't. Cleverly looks a great prospect, but may not reach the potential that we all think.

We need to add some more class into the team to fully compete or we may struggle to finish second in the league.

Al Capwned

Jame Gumb wrote: »

United's midfield may be overstocked in terms of numbers, but it's understocked in terms of quality.

This.

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

Shift some of them! Seriously?

You are including two 37/38 year olds as two of your seven, you really don't think retirement is the sensible option?

You are including a guy who with all due respect, is very unlikely to ever play again because of medical issues. Shift him? He is already gone.

You also include an 18 year old who could be anything or nothing. He should no more be counted upon than any other 18 year old in the academy.

You state we are top heavy with CM, with seven on the books. I say that number is overinflated with names that aren't actually viable. Might as well say that we have 14 central midfielders, include the tea lady and some of the under 12's as our options. They are as likely to contribute as Fletcher is.

If Fergie thinks he is planning for a title challenge with seven center midfielders then he really is guilty of mismanagement, because that is an awful assessment of his resources.

Are you having a laugh mate, or being deliberately ignorant? The quality of the players, their age, or their health is not relevant to what I am saying. Those players are all being paid.

bucketybuck

double GG wrote: »

Giggs and Scholes still have a lot to give to this side.

Experience is an important quality for any team. But my point is that a good manager should always try to have the best resources at hand for the job ahead, and as such it is pure folly to plan for a premier league title challenge with a 37 year old and a 38 year old as integral parts of the most important area of the team.

If there were two proven quality midfielders there then I would have no issue having a Giggs or Scholes there for the odd game when needed. But to think that we will be approaching the new season with Scholes as a first choice midfielder is a sign of serious problems with that team.

double GG

dahat wrote: »

Take off the red coloured glasses,Scholes played half a season with little or no CL invovlemnt,while he improved the team one could argue would he have had the same impact over a full season,my answer would be no........
Giggs has long been a bit part with the ability to produce moments of magic at any given moment in any game but in general is on the downgrade a while.....
We were over run in midfield on many occasions last season.......

Another could argue that Scholes could have had the same impact over the full year had he not retired who knows? Nobody does.

I never said anything about being over run etc.... Yes we were but I'm only making my point about people who continually stress the fact that both Scholes and Giggs should retire or should have retired 2 years ago or whatever. Scholes would still start in probably every team in the world bar a few. He is still top class.

dahat

double GG wrote: »

Another could argue that Scholes could have had the same impact had he not retired who knows? Nobody does.

I never said anything about being over run etc.... Yes we were but I'm only making my point about people who continually stress the fact that both Scholes and Giggs should retire or should have retired 2 years ago or whatever. Scholes would still start in probably every team in the world bar a few. He is still top class.

No one can argues the undoubted ability of those two but to continually rely on them is wrong and shows a lack of ruthlessness at the club.......

double GG

dahat wrote: »

No one can argues the undoubted ability of those two but to continually rely on them is wrong and shows a lack of ruthlessness at the club.......

But surely if they're good enough, their age is regardless.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Are you having a laugh mate, or being deliberately ignorant? The quality of the players, their age, or their health is not relevant to what I am saying. Those players are all being paid.

You say we are paying seven centre midfielders and would need to move players on before getting others in.

I say that you are not accurate, there are not seven senior midfielders, there are three. Carrick, Cleverly and Anderson. The rest can only be counted as senior midfielders in accounting terms.

Fletcher is gone, you cannot claim him as one of the seven, any more than you can claim the physio is. After all, the physio is getting paid and is just as likely to play as Fletcher at this stage.

Scholes and Giggs do not need to be moved on, because they should be as retied as Keane and Robson at this stage.

If you want to claim Powell as a senior midfielder then just go ahead and claim Tunnicliffe and the rest of the reserves also, and say we have a dozen senior midfielders.

cloptrop

There would probably be a bit of a kick fletcher when hes down reaction if he was gotten rid of now. I wonder is insurance paying his wages now anyway.
Cant get rid of cleverly or powell because they very likely to come good .
Cant get rid of giggs and scholes just yet because of the hole itd leave.
Seems hes just winging it until cleverly and powell come good.
There would be plenty of room for someone if ando got the door .
Id be happy with that. He has looked good at times but he has had his chance and is either injured or not good enough .

Maximus Alexander

I'll try to break this down. Forget for a moment about the quality of the existing midfield, and look instead at the reasons why the club probably won't be signing another one.

At the start of last season, we had Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs, Anderson and Cleverley.

Carrick, solid as a rock in my book.
Fletcher, we had no idea he would not be able to play all season.
Giggs, his age is just a number. Sure, it means he can't play as many minutes, but the quality has been there almost every time he has come onto the pitch. Great guy to have as cover.
Cleverley, hugely promising, and proved it at the beginning of the season.
Anderson, actually pretty talented. Shame about his fitness.

That midfield, at the start of last season, actually didn't look too bad. Unfortunately, Fletcher was unavailable, Cleverley had a horrible season for injuries, and Anderson was true to form. So, in January, Scholes came back to bail us out.

That was a master stroke in my opinion. He performed well, cost us nothing, and managed to contribute to a pretty decent season in the league.

So that brings us to this summer. Imagine you're SAF, sitting there looking at your squad and thinking "The midfield's troublesome, how can I fix that?"

Well you've got 6 CMs on the books, so you can't really just go out and buy another one. You'd have to get some of the others off the wage bill first. Carrick, Giggs and Scholes are the only ones that were reliable last year, so they're staying. Cleverley was unfortunate but still has bags of potential, so he's staying.

Clearly, Anderson is the first target, along with Fletcher if he's unlikely to be fit and healthy. But they have contracts and you can't just burn them. Who is going to buy them?

Screwed. Ah well, bring in a promising youth for more cover and hope that Cleverley can stay fit. Maybe, just maybe, Anderson can finally contribute. Even if he's not quite good enough, an injury free season would make him saleable next summer.

Chancer3001

Man City still start Gareth Barry every game and hes not amazing.

There are only so many Xaviniestas to go around.

Scholes is uniteds one and hes as good as anybody.

IvySlayer

I had a dream where we lost our opener...so did City, by a score of 15-2 to be exact :P

cloptrop

IvySlayer wrote: »

I had a dream where we lost our opener...so did City, by a score of 15-2 to be exact :P

did rvp play for us . Had we got a new midfielder. Never mind the score

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That midfield, at the start of last season, actually didn't look too bad.

We will have to agree to disagree as this comes back to my original point today, because that midfield does look bad actually. It looked bad this time last year and it looks even worse today. Fergie should have addressed the issue this time last year, he didn't and come the big games it cost us.

It is horrible mismanagement that apparently he plans to do the same this year.

As I said earlier, I would be delighted if those seven were Man Cities senior midfielders.