Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Jame Gumb

double GG wrote: »

Scholes is still playing at a level above 95% of midfielders in the world. His passing is second to none and just the experience he brings to the team is amazing. He is still well able to complete 70-80 minutes in every match no problem

Hi Double GG

I'm as big a Scholes fan as anyone, but I don't think that he's "up to it" anymore at the very highest level (i.e. against the likes of Toure, Xavi, etc). By all means stick him in against mid to lower tier opposition, but it isn't fair (most of all to Scholes) to make him cannon fodder for the likes of City and Barca.

As for Giggs, yes he's arguably our greatest ever player, but he is a winger rather than a midfielder.

J

Maximus Alexander

We must be having different discussions, because as I have said, I completely agree that the midfield needs to be improved.

It won't be though.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It won't be though.

And that is poor management.

Maximus Alexander

bucketybuck wrote: »

And that is poor management.

I would call it misfortune.

bucketybuck

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I would call it misfortune.

Sorry but you'll need to explain that one?

He's just unlucky that he hasn't signed a centre midfielder in five years?

cloptrop

Raphael gonna win gold in a few minutes on rte .

Eathrin

Was that Rafael at fault there?

Jax Teller

Don't speak to soon Rafael just messed up and Mexico scored after 30 seconds .

caffrey

Eathrin wrote: »

Was that Rafael at fault there?

yes rafael is not a good player, don't understand people who think he is.

Pudsy33

Is Chico injured?

double GG

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is Chico injured?

Isn't in the squad. Overage.

Jax Teller

No he's not in the Mexico squad .

Jame Gumb

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is Chico injured?

Nah, he wasn't included...thank God...he played non stop including summers for a few years between the World Cup and Copa America.

He needed a rest bigtime and according to Fergie he's looking great in training and should have a big season.

Blatter

caffrey wrote: »

yes rafael is not a good player, don't understand people who think he is.

You just don't understand football then.

Pudsy33

I knew he wasn't in the squad, was wondering why. Didn't realise he was 24! Cheers lads.

cloptrop

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is Chico injured?

Nah, he wasn't included

united asked he be given a rest this summer as far as i remember. I wouldnt put too much blame on raphael he was trying to play it out . The fella he gave the ball to i think should have done better.

Jame Gumb

Rafael isn't being done any favours by his team mates here. He's very exposed.

caffrey

Blatter wrote: »

You just don't understand football then.

yes I do, first and foremost he is a defender and at that he is not good. he is poor positionally, he gives the ball away in terrible positions, his temperament is questionable and he switches off at the worst possible moments(one example is against everton).

at attacking he is decent, but not great, in his position the most desirable attacking quality would be crossing and he isn't that good at that.

He has many times cost us games.

caffrey

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Rafael isn't being done any favours by his team mates here. He's very exposed.

I'll give you that but he should have smashed that down the line if he had to rather than that terrible pass

Blatter

caffrey wrote: »

yes I do, first and foremost he is a defender and at that he is not good. he is poor positionally, he gives the ball away in terrible positions, his temperament is questionable and he switches off at the worst possible moments(one example is against everton).

at attacking he is decent, but not great, in his position the most desirable attacking quality would be crossing and he isn't that good at that.

He has many times cost us games.

He can be erratic at times, I don't think anyone would dispute that but it doesn't mean he's not a good player.

I think he's better defensively than his critics make out and he's more than decent going forward.

All in all, considering his age, he's a magnificent prospect and currently a good player. He'd easily fetch £15m if we were to put him on the market tomorrow but thankfully we're not that stupid.

Jax Teller

Brazil's centre half was perfectly placed to receive the ball . He picked the wrong pass big deal he's done more good than bad for Brazil at this tournament .

Professey Chin

caffrey wrote: »

yes I do, first and foremost he is a defender and at that he is not good. he is poor positionally, he gives the ball away in terrible positions, his temperament is questionable and he switches off at the worst possible moments(one example is against everton).

at attacking he is decent, but not great, in his position the most desirable attacking quality would be crossing and he isn't that good at that.

He has many times cost us games.

Do tell with examples please exactly how many times.

caffrey

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

Do tell with examples please exactly how many times.

Well I gave the example of everton, another is the bayern game...

caffrey

Blatter wrote: »

He can be erratic at times, I don't think anyone would dispute that but it doesn't mean he's not a good player.

I think he's better defensively than his critics make out and he's more than decent going forward.

All in all, considering his age, he's a magnificent prospect and currently a good player. He'd easily fetch £15m if we were to put him on the market tomorrow but thankfully we're not that stupid.

No you are right, he is good, he has amazing ability but he could be 100% better, imo if he got rid of these faults.

Professey Chin

caffrey wrote: »

Well I gave the example of everton, another is the bayern game...

He had Ribery in his pocket for that entire Bayren game before a pretty harsh sending off. Although you can use it. Now you have 2. Hes been a member of the team since 08. Any more?

caffrey

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

He had Ribery in his pocket for that entire Bayren game before a pretty harsh sending off. Although you can use it. Now you have 2. Hes been a member of the team since 08. Any more?

jeez, you want me to remember every time, I gave 2 high profile games that argueably cost a PL and CL, thats a liability, at least to some extent. Also the number of cards he picks up, sometimes for foolish tackles leaves him in a position that he can't make tackles when its important.

No doubt since I said this he will score or set up a goal whilst making no more mistakes

Al Capwned

caffrey wrote: »

jeez, you want me to remember every time, I gave 2 high profile games that argueably cost a PL and CL, thats a liability, at least to some extent. Also the number of cards he picks up, sometimes for foolish tackles leaves him in a position that he can't make tackles when its important.

No doubt since I said this he will score or set up a goal whilst making no more mistakes

Nah....

Professey Chin

caffrey wrote: »

jeez, you want me to remember every time, I gave 2 high profile games that argueably cost a PL and CL, thats a liability, at least to some extent. Also the number of cards he picks up, sometimes for foolish tackles leaves him in a position that he can't make tackles when its important.

No doubt since I said this he will score or set up a goal whilst making no more mistakes

No but when you claim hes cost us many games over the last 4 seasons but can only at a stretch name 2 then its not much a point

The_Kew_Tour

When one leaves, another arrives.

Jame Gumb

Neymar is regularly put in the £60 - 80m bracket with the likes of Ronaldo and Messi. Have to admit that anytime I watch him, I can't see it.

Same with Hulk. Cool name, but massively overrated.

caffrey

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

No but when you claim hes cost us many games over the last 4 seasons but can only at a stretch name 2 then its not much a point

well actually he cost us at least a goal against bilbao....sorry if my memory isn't as good as it should be but I didn't come to this conclusion for no reason.

Liam O

He really could have gone about this argument better alright...

anyway on Rafael, I don't think he's that great myself. Purely because I think Fabio is a far better player overall and is just an upgrade in every way on Raf but for some reason fell off the radar last season. The best period of play from right back in recent seasons was when Fabio got his game consistently a couple of years ago, his positioning, his crossing, his defending as a package was far better than any of Rafael, Smalling or Jones have managed imo.

Pro. F

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I'll try to break this down. Forget for a moment about the quality of the existing midfield, and look instead at the reasons why the club probably won't be signing another one.

At the start of last season, we had Carrick, Fletcher, Giggs, Anderson and Cleverley.

Carrick, solid as a rock in my book.
Fletcher, we had no idea he would not be able to play all season.
Giggs, his age is just a number. Sure, it means he can't play as many minutes, but the quality has been there almost every time he has come onto the pitch. Great guy to have as cover.
Cleverley, hugely promising, and proved it at the beginning of the season.
Anderson, actually pretty talented. Shame about his fitness.

That midfield, at the start of last season, actually didn't look too bad. Unfortunately, Fletcher was unavailable, Cleverley had a horrible season for injuries, and Anderson was true to form. So, in January, Scholes came back to bail us out.

That was a master stroke in my opinion. He performed well, cost us nothing, and managed to contribute to a pretty decent season in the league.

So that brings us to this summer. Imagine you're SAF, sitting there looking at your squad and thinking "The midfield's troublesome, how can I fix that?"

Well you've got 6 CMs on the books, so you can't really just go out and buy another one. You'd have to get some of the others off the wage bill first. Carrick, Giggs and Scholes are the only ones that were reliable last year, so they're staying. Cleverley was unfortunate but still has bags of potential, so he's staying.

Clearly, Anderson is the first target, along with Fletcher if he's unlikely to be fit and healthy. But they have contracts and you can't just burn them. Who is going to buy them?

Screwed. Ah well, bring in a promising youth for more cover and hope that Cleverley can stay fit. Maybe, just maybe, Anderson can finally contribute. Even if he's not quite good enough, an injury free season would make him saleable next summer.

If the wages being earned by those central midfielders at the club is a limiting factor on buying new central midfielders then it's a limiting factor on buying players for any position. All the wages come from the same pot.

If you think CMs should be moved on before new ones are brought in then there are plenty of candidates for that. Giggs is a poor central midfielder, can't run for 90 minutes and can't play more than once a week. There's no need to keep him at the club. Fletcher is so sick he can't even play. Scholes is good but can't run for 90 minutes and can't play more than once a week.

Al Capwned

Liam O wrote: »

He really could have gone about this argument better alright...

anyway on Rafael, I don't think he's that great myself. Purely because I think Fabio is a far better player overall and is just an upgrade in every way on Raf but for some reason fell off the radar last season. The best period of play from right back in recent seasons was when Fabio got his game consistently a couple of years ago, his positioning, his crossing, his defending as a package was far better than any of Rafael, Smalling or Jones have managed imo.

Culminating in a champions league final appearance.

caffrey

Liam O wrote: »

He really could have gone about this argument better alright...

anyway on Rafael, I don't think he's that great myself. Purely because I think Fabio is a far better player overall and is just an upgrade in every way on Raf but for some reason fell off the radar last season. The best period of play from right back in recent seasons was when Fabio got his game consistently a couple of years ago, his positioning, his crossing, his defending as a package was far better than any of Rafael, Smalling or Jones have managed imo.

Well I didn't actually realise people were so touchy. I'll go back to lurking and never mention anything negative again else suffer the "please do tell" comments.

KombuchaMshroom

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

He had Ribery in his pocket for that entire Bayren game before a pretty harsh sending off. Although you can use it. Now you have 2. Hes been a member of the team since 08. Any more?

Bilbao's last goal in the Old Trafford leg this season is another that comes to mind. Rafael just complete swithced off and let his man beat him from about 20 yards behind, pretty much killing and hopes we had in the tie.

I like Rafael, he is still young and could potentially become a great RB, but it has to be said that Ant and Dec do also have the potential to be liabilities when they play, always worried they will get sent off as they have a good tendency to pick up early bookings. And if they don't get sent off they often come off injured.

Saying all that I do like the lads, I'm just playing Devil's advocate.

Jame Gumb

@caffrey

I can see your point. It's not like you're saying that the world is flat.

Rafael has made high profile mistakes and does have a tendency to dive into tackles recklessly.

However, he's a superb prospect. If he cools the jets a bit (which he should with age and experience), he's likely to be an incredible player. He deserves a shot at being first choice right back this season, but equally he deserves to be on "danger watch", and if he keeps the headless chicken stuff going, he should be relegated to the bench until he matures sufficiently.

J

Jame Gumb

Liam O wrote: »

The best period of play from right back in recent seasons was when Fabio got his game consistently a couple of years ago, his positioning, his crossing, his defending as a package was far better than any of Rafael.

Ah, but was it really Fabio?

And who's really gone to QPR?

Ever notice the way Rafael goes in at half time sweating like a pig and then comes back out looking fresh as a daisy, while the opposite can be said for Fabio?

If the FA ever find out, we'll be relegated to the third division a la Rangers...

Mitch Connor

Rafael is a superb young player. He makes mistakes, and has cost us goals - this is true, but so did Neville when he was young, and when he was mature, and towards the end of his career. Ashley has been raped by Valencia on occasion. Philip Lahm has been shown up at times - as has other top full backs like Alba. Evra has made loads over the last two seasons. It happens.

Footballers make mistakes. They cost goals, or they miss goals. Most goals are likely the result of a defensive lapse or poor pass.

What it comes down to though, imo, is how Rafael measures up vs other full backs and, in particular, young full backs.

I can't think of another full back his age that I would take over him - he just needs experience and faith. I reckon he has the ability and potential to be one of the very best full backs over the next 10 years. I think Fabio has a bucket load of potential too and I can't wait to see how he does over the next season with QPR too.

Liam O

caffrey wrote: »

Well I didn't actually realise people were so touchy. I'll go back to lurking and never mention anything negative again else suffer the "please do tell" comments.

don't do that, your argument as a whole has a lot of merit, it's just the opening statements lacked a lot of balance, the "don't understand people" who think he's a good player was definitely the wrong way to start it. Since then you've shown that you can see the good along with the bad which immediately makes you different to most of the stubborn lads in here when discussing players

Pro. F

caffrey wrote: »

yes rafael is not a good player, don't understand people who think he is.

caffrey wrote: »

No you are right, he is good, he has amazing ability but he could be 100% better, imo if he got rid of these faults.

You really can't complain about people calling you out on what you say when you carry on like this and with the ''he's cost us many games...but I can only think of three.''

Liam O

Seen the goal for Mexico there by the way, wouldn't be overly critical of Raf for that one. The guy (Sandro?) he was passing it to should have made a bit of space for himself and supported Raf better. Should also have done more to get the ball once the pass was played too.

caffrey

Pro. F wrote: »

You really can't complain about people calling you out on what you say when you carry on like this and with the ''he's cost us many games...but I can only think of three.''

Lets be honest, it WAS a lazy comment but it was born out of frustration, he should be better than this, he definitely has the ability

event

cloptrop wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is Chico injured?

Nah, he wasn't included

united asked he be given a rest this summer as far as i remember. I wouldnt put too much blame on raphael he was trying to play it out . The fella he gave the ball to i think should have done better.

Eh what?
The blame was all on rafael tbf, he dithered on the ball instead of putting it out for a throw, then gave a hospital pass inside to a team mate

Pro. F

Yeah, definitely a poor mistake for that goal from Raf imo. Silly silly pass.

Al Capwned

Ya, I'm a fan of Rafael too, but you gotta be honest and say that the Mexico goal was his fault alright.

Someone said earlier that Neymar hasn't lived up to expectations - couldn't agree more - 'all style and no substance'.

Giggsy11

Rafael was at fault for the first goal, no doubt about that but apart from that mistake he did well, winning few very good tackles.

As I'm typing Rafael and Juan started fighting. Teammates and having a go at each other.

LuckyLloyd

cloptrop wrote: »

Raphael gonna win gold in a few minutes on rte .

lol, he was pretty terrible today

mufcboy1999

How many more mistakes has rafael left in him ? He's a disaster most of the time, I'd be a lot more comfterable with smalling or jones at rb.

cloptrop

event wrote: »

cloptrop wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Is Chico injured?

Nah, he wasn't included

united asked he be given a rest this summer as far as i remember. I wouldnt put too much blame on raphael he was trying to play it out . The fella he gave the ball to i think should have done better.

Eh what?
The blame was all on rafael tbf, he dithered on the ball instead of putting it out for a throw, then gave a hospital pass inside to a team mate

He had a choice to make play it out from the back or put it in row 7. Hindsight is beautuful thing. His strategy would have been given to him by his boss before the game. Brazil pass under pressure. You cant blame him for trying to pass the ball . If he put it out for a throw and they scored from the throw im sure itd be his fault as well .
Wolves werent playing today . Hence the attempted pass.