Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

TheDoc

I'm relatively new to posting in this thread consistently, but can I take that the keane fella is the resident wind up merchant?

keane2097

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm relatively new to posting in this thread consistently, but can I take that the keane fella is the resident troll yes?

Yes.

I'm ok with most people, the Broom chap is just an oddball.

I've had the odd run-in with others but mostly they're all sound. Blatter, Mitch, Kryo, Homer and others all right most of the time. Good lads, you seem like a good lad as well.

TheDoc

keane2097 wrote: »

Yes.

I'm ok with most people, the Broom chap is just an oddball.

I've had the odd run-in with others but mostly they're all sound. Blatter, Mitch, Kryo, Homer and others all right most of the time. Good lads, you seem like a good lad as well.

I edited the troll bit, was too harsh and wasn't the point I was trying to make, but on most of the team threads there are lads who just essentially look from a rise from people.

But if your a resident contributor, I feel comfortable now assembling a short novel to tear you over claiming Gattuso was an ability footballer at 20

I may take this to PM to ask your thoughts on Paul Green to truthfully find out your windup nature

Blatter

keane2097 wrote: »

Gattuso. What do I win?

Well I was too young to remember what Gattuso was like at 20 so I couldn't possibly say.

Any recent examples over the last 10 years?

Orando Broom

keane2097 wrote: »

Yes.

I'm ok with most people, the Broom chap is just an oddball.

I've had the odd run-in with others but mostly they're all sound. Blatter, Mitch, Kryo, Homer and others all right most of the time. Good lads, you seem like a good lad as well.

What gives with the personal stuff?

TheDoc

Surely it was a rhetorical question?

List the world class DM's of the last ten years,
Then revisit them at 20

And youll find they were all good footballers.

How does someone get to world class, while being a dirt footballer? Bar those who comment and know nothing of football ?

I think Sergio Busquets could very well nearly make the list, although I dont consider him World Class, I think hes a DM with limited ability, regardless what Graham Hunter will tell you

PhlegmyMoses

Roy Keane improved his technique substantially with age. As did Scholes, although that was more of a refinement as he already had awesome technique.

Blatter

Busquets?

An astonishingly good footballer. He has the first touch, short pass, control and composure of a God.

Jax Teller

Seriously Busquets is absolutely amazing . Top top player .

keane2097

Blatter wrote: »

Well I was too young to remember what Gattuso was like at 20 so I couldn't possibly say.

Any recent examples over the last 10 years?

You might remember the furore over Busquets being selected ahead of Yaya in his first, and particularly the first half of his second, season in the Barcelona senior team.

He's quickly developed to the point of near-godliness but everything about him in that first season and a half was average - touch, passing, positioning, physicality.

Lucas is another player who has improved immeasurably at several facets of the game you've mentioned over recent years. Flamini started off awful at everything before practically flicking a switch and becoming excellent over a very short period of time in his last season at Arsenal. Went on to be excellent for a couple of years at Milan but his career's been kiboshed in recent years due to injury.

I could probably think of more if I had to but regardless I don't think you can say with any degree of certainty that any individual skill can't be developed enough after 20 for a player to be world class in a particular position. There are infinite ways to be world class in any given position. Roy Keane bore little resemblance to Schweinsteiger but there's no doubting they both fulfil the criteria of world class box to box midfielders, areas one may be somewhat deficient in that the other is excellent at will have caused their games to develop differently is all.

kryogen

Have to agree, his antics wind me up to the limit but Busquets is a fantastic footballer, now he would be my ideal signing for the club, not one you ever consider because there is not even a remote possibility of it

Super player

keane2097

Blatter wrote: »

Busquets?

An astonishingly good footballer. He has the first touch, short pass, control and composure of a God.

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Seriously Busquets is absolutely amazing . Top top player .

Busquets is an animal, as I said myself - godlike. But his first 50 games at Barca were a litany of errors, surely ye remember the outcry at him being picked ahead of Yaya? The anger at a guy being given such blatant preference because he was from the local academy, even the claims of racism?

He is a brilliant player now, but he started off straight up poorly.

homerjay2005

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

Seriously Busquets is absolutely amazing . Top top player .

would be a dream signing for united, but will never happen. peoples hatred of him, clouds judgement, he will be the top midfielder in the world once Xavi and Iniesta start to wind down.

keane2097

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Roy Keane improved his technique substantially with age. As did Scholes, although that was more of a refinement as he already had awesome technique.

Yeah that's true as well, through the early 90s he was somewhat second fiddle to Ince in CM, it was only when Ince left that Keane really grew into himself.

kryogen

keane2097 wrote: »

Busquets

Lucas

Flamini

Roy Keane.

Busquets, of course there was uproar when he first started keeping Yay out of the team, it was yaya! He proved he was well able for it though, always had good technical ability

Lucas, although he failed to perform as well as he can now Lucas at 20 would still be a technically sound midfielder

Flamini, much like Gattuso his technical ability is exaggerated, he was excellent at doing the donkey work and letting the more talented players at Arsenal shine alright, still at 20 he had more natural ability for midfield then Jones

Roy Keane had more technical ability then people give him credit for, he was a genuine goal threat in his early career.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would be a dream signing for united, but will never happen. peoples hatred of him, clouds judgement, he will be the top midfielder in the world once Xavi and Iniesta start to wind down.

He's already gotta be the best defensive leaning MF, no? Can't think of anyone near his level.

kryogen

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah that's true as well, through the early 90s he was somewhat second fiddle to Ince in CM, it was only when Ince left that Keane really grew into himself.

We flat out disagree here

keane2097

kryogen wrote: »

Busquets, of course there was uproar when he first started keeping Yay out of the team, it was yaya! He proved he was well able for it though, always had good technical ability

Lucas, although he failed to perform as well as he can now Lucas at 20 would still be a technically sound midfielder

Flamini, much like Gattuso his technical ability is exaggerated, he was excellent at doing the donkey work and letting the more talented players at Arsenal shine alright, still at 20 he had more natural ability for midfield then Jones

Roy Keane had more technical ability then people give him credit for, he was a genuine goal threat in his early career.

None of these things are at issue, the question was whether or not players can show a dramatic increase in certain areas of their game after 20. All these players improved very, very considerably during their twenties, hence the point is proven. X was still better at 20 than Y is irrelevant to a decent extent.

lordgoat

Are peoples trying to debate if players get better as they get older?

Course they do.

Alot will come down to where United see Jones's future, he'l lbe a good player in wither MF or CB but ultimately it will be the club that decide which is best for him.

At the moment I'd say CB, but you can still learn alot from the game from playing in midfield and then dropiing back. You learn communication and concentration and how to help your FB's out. All vital for when playing at the back.

Also keane is a grand poster, just take with a pinch of salt at times (like most really). He just speaks his mind bluntly. No problem with it myself.

kryogen

The point I would make is if its not there its just not there

All the midfielders listed showed that they had a natural ability for centre of midfield, it was what came naturally to them, of course they improved with experience and training, but it had to be there in the first place for this to happen.

I just don't see it as being there in the first place with Jones, his natural tendancies and traits are not that of a midfielder.

You can put him there and he will do a job, he may even become a good defensive midfielder, but he will never be a top class midfield player because the raw materials needed are just not there.

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

We flat out disagree here

absolutely. Paul Ince became a very dispensible commodity as soon as Roy Keane stepped onto the field in a United Jersey. it was a great piece of business selling Ince for the money they got for him. £7m in 1995! Massive.

I've often wondered how Keane ( if he was 24/25 today) would fare against Xavi and Iniesta actually. I think his passing range would have been adequate in the modern game but certainly he'd have to be a much more adventurous passer. Having said that he had a completation percentage usually in the mid to high 80's which was phenomenal for the era.

kryogen

keane2097 wrote: »

None of these things are at issue, the question was whether or not players can show a dramatic increase in certain areas of their game after 20. All these players improved very, very considerably during their twenties, hence the point is proven. X was still better at 20 than Y is irrelevant to a decent extent.

Its not really, the question put to you was, who has not had good first touch/footballing ability at 20 and gone on to be world class

Whether a player improves or not is not that relevant, over the course of a career players normally do improve, but not to the top class level unless the material is already there.

You questioned how someone could say jones could not be a top class midfielder while saying he would be a top class centre back.

Not whether he could improve, I dont believe he could imprve enough to be a top class centre midifelder. Like I said in another post, Im sure would imprve in general.

keane2097

lordgoat wrote: »

Are peoples trying to debate if players get better as they get older?

Course they do.

Alot will come down to where United see Jones's future, he'l lbe a good player in wither MF or CB but ultimately it will be the club that decide which is best for him.

Agree.

lordgoat wrote: »

Also keane is a grand poster, just take with a pinch of salt at times (like most really). He just speaks his mind bluntly. No problem with it myself.

Appreciate. Tbh I'm hungover most of the time I'm like this.

kryogen wrote: »

We flat out disagree here

Didn't mean to suggest Ince was a better player, but there's no doubt Keane took on a greater mantle of responsibility and really grew into a colossus when Ince left and the younger lads came in. Probably doesn't prove anything either way but just a clarification.

kryogen wrote: »

The point I would make is if its not there its just not there

All the midfielders listed showed that they had a natural ability for centre of midfield, it was what came naturally to them, of course they improved with experience and training, but it had to be there in the first place for this to happen.

I just don't see it as being there in the first place with Jones, his natural tendancies and traits are not that of a midfielder.

You can put him there and he will do a job, he may even become a good defensive midfielder, but he will never be a top class midfield player because the raw materials needed are just not there.

Orando Broom wrote: »

What gives with the personal stuff?

I'm like this at times. I'm unlikely to change, but don't mean anything to be hurtful. Embrace the oddballness. Apologies if I've upset you in the slightest.

Also, I forgot Pro. F earlier. He's a good egg.

kryogen

You left out a response to me even though you quoted me

Orando Broom

keane2097 wrote: »

Agree.



Appreciate. Tbh I'm hungover most of the time I'm like this.



Didn't mean to suggest Ince was a better player, but there's no doubt Keane took on a greater mantle of responsibility and really grew into a colossus when Ince left and the younger lads came in. Probably doesn't prove anything either way but just a clarification.





I'm like this at times. I'm unlikely to change, but don't mean anything to be hurtful. Embrace the oddballness. Apologies if I've upset you in the slightest.
Also, I forgot Pro. F earlier. He's a good egg.

Not good enough. You have done nothing today but try to provoke a response and then you come out with this backhanded crap?

keane2097

kryogen wrote: »

Its not really, the question put to you was, who has not had good first touch/footballing ability at 20 and gone on to be world class

Whether a player improves or not is not that relevant, over the course of a career players normally do improve, but not to the top class level unless the material is already there.

You questioned how someone could say jones could not be a top class midfielder while saying he would be a top class centre back.

Not whether he could improve, I dont believe he could imprve enough to be a top class centre midifelder. Like I said in another post, Im sure would imprve in general.

Nobody at that level doesn't have a good first touch, including Phil Jones. Were any of them world class at 20, probably no for all tbh. Did they improve, in some cases dramatically, over their early 20s - I'd argue yes.

In any case the point I made about there being various ways to be world class is probably the more important one. Jones doesn't have to have anything like Modric's touch to be world class in the same way Modric doesn't need to have anything like Jones' physicality to be world class. Gattuso fair enough didn't have great technical ability, but was still a world class MF. As Mr Goat said it'll all come down to what way United want to play it but if they see him as a MF he has plenty attributes needed to develop into a top quality MF, he won't be amazing at everything, but nobody really is.

Orando Broom wrote: »

absolutely. Paul Ince became a very dispensible commodity as soon as Roy Keane stepped onto the field in a United Jersey. it was a great piece of business selling Ince for the money they got for him. £7m in 1995! Massive.

I've often wondered how Keane ( if he was 24/25 today) would fare against Xavi and Iniesta actually. I think his passing range would have been adequate in the modern game but certainly he'd have to be a much more adventurous passer. Having said that he had a completation percentage usually in the mid to high 80's which was phenomenal for the era.

Keane was a lot better going forward in general earlier in his career I seem to remember, probably reined himself in when his partner started being Scholes consistently.

kryogen

Orando Broom wrote: »

Not good enough. You have done nothing today but try to provoke a response and then you come out with this backhanded crap?

Its an internet forum dude, better not to let it upset you really isn't it?

keane2097

Orando Broom wrote: »

Not good enough. You have done nothing today but try to provoke a response and then you come out with this backhanded crap?

What if this is as good as it gets?

Also, I don't typically go in for backhanded. If I think you're a bollocks I'll tell you I think you're a bollocks.

TheTownie

Looks like the thread isn't big enough for both Keane and Orando..

Somethings gotta give..

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

Its an internet forum dude, better not to let it upset you really isn't it?

It's impossible to have a debate about football. It is incredibly annoying and unwarrented. Anyways it's out of my hands now.

Orando Broom

keane2097 wrote: »

What if this is as good as it gets?

Also, I don't typically go in for backhanded. If I think you're a bollocks I'll tell you I think you're a bollocks.

But you won't because you know it will result in a ban. So you don't. You're cuter than that.

bullvine

This thread going down toilet yet again!

keane2097

kryogen wrote: »

You left out a response to me even though you quoted me

Whoops - you could consider this to be my response to that, I had your post in mind writing it:

keane2097 wrote: »

In any case the point I made about there being various ways to be world class is probably the more important one. Jones doesn't have to have anything like Modric's touch to be world class in the same way Modric doesn't need to have anything like Jones' physicality to be world class. Gattuso fair enough didn't have great technical ability, but was still a world class MF. As Mr Goat said it'll all come down to what way United want to play it but if they see him as a MF he has plenty attributes needed to develop into a top quality MF, he won't be amazing at everything, but nobody really is.

It's obv an unquantifiable area, I just find the idea that his ball control or whatever being 100% not good enough to be way too black and white, especially at 20.

Frisbee

Put the handbags away...

keane2097

Orando Broom wrote: »

But you won't because you know it will result in a ban. So you don't. You're cuter than that.

lol, some memory on you:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77469661#post77469661

bullvine wrote: »

This thread going down toilet yet again!

Do you ever post besides to say you don't like the thread? There's plenty of discussion going on this morning.

keane2097

TheTownie wrote: »

Looks like the thread isn't big enough for both Keane and Orando..

Somethings gotta give..

Ah you know me, I never stick around too long. Soon I will absent myself and return to my slumber.

lordgoat

keane2097 wrote: »

It's obv an unquantifiable area, I just find the idea that his ball control or whatever being 100% not good enough to be way too black and white, especially at 20.

I'd agree with this alot.

kryogen

News/speculation on the IPO

If Manchester United kicks off a public stock offering in New York this year, it will likely be touted as a triumph for U.S. capital markets. This is, after all, England’s top soccer team, and of all the listing venues the club could have chosen, not least London’s, it looks like Man U is coming to America.


But this apparent financial score isn’t worth cheering like an extra-time win. While U.S. exchanges dwarf the competition in raising capital this year, there’s a dark side to this distinction that investors should heed. Man U won’t be choosing New York because Americans are gaga for the sport (just 1 percent of respondents in a recent Harris Interactive poll said their favorite sport was soccer). Rather, the Glazer family, which also owns the NFL’s Tampa Bay Buccaneers, will be taking advantage of the leeway America’s listing standards offer companies to practice poor corporate governance.


New York’s stock markets permit companies to sort their shareholders into different classes, allowing founders and owners to sell shares while maintaining control. In London, such a setup gets you excluded from key indexes. It’s an aberration of democratic capitalism, which in its purest form gives one vote per share.The mechanism lets Mark Zuckerberg hold shares in Facebook with 10 times the voting power of those available to the investing masses. Similar structures enable Rupert Murdoch, the Sulzbergers at The New York Times, the Ford family, and dozens of others to keep a grip on their companies that is far greater than the capital they have at stake.


While this practice has been tolerated for years, it has lately gained considerable ground. This year there have been 21 IPOs on the NYSE and Nasdaq that have sold more than $200 million in shares. All told, they have reaped $24.2 billion, according to Thomson Reuters data. Nearly 80 percent of the money, through nine of the deals, came from the sale of securities with subpar ownership rights.


Facebook, which raised $16 billion and promptly saw its shares tumble, was the biggest of the bunch, but it wasn’t alone. Carlyle Group, the private equity firm that owns Dunkin’ Donuts and 200 other companies, harvested $671 million by selling securities that give investors almost no say. Oaktree Capital, an investment firm, did the same in April.



All of this is amply disclosed ahead of time, so buyers can beware. And there are sometimes perfectly good reasons, such as tax advantages, for buying the sort of coach-class securities that Manchester will likely offer. But winning a race to the bottom by selling out the rights of shareholders is hardly worth celebrating.

kryogen

And in lighter news

Real Madrid have reportedly been told that Luka Modric, who is also a target for Manchester United, can only join them if Tottenham get Nuri Sahin in return.
Modric is believed to be Man Utd manager Sir Alex Ferguson's top summer transfer target, but widespread newspaper reports at the weekend suggested the player is keen on a move to Spain and wants to join Real Madrid.

However, according to The Times, Spurs are keen on getting a player in return as they prepare to part company with the Croatia international, and initial talks about a part-exchange deal have already taken place.

And the north London club are said to have informed Los Blancos they will need to cough up £25million, in addition to Turkey international Sahin, if they are serious about signing Modric this summer.

Sahin joined Madrid from Borussia Dortmund twelve months ago in a deal worth around £8, but failed to make an impression at the Bernabeu last season.

Reports in Spain earlier this year suggested Real Madrid coach Jose Mourinho was interested in sending him out on loan for a year in order for him to get more games under his belt.

Several Premier League clubs are believed to have shown interest in the 23-year-old, including United and Chelsea.

Marca recently reported that a move back to Dortmund was the most likely scenario after they failed with a bid to take him back to Germany in January.

Tottenham appear to be keen on signing the midfielder on a permanent basis, however, which could potentially lead to Modric's move to the Bernabeu falling through, especially as it unknown whether Sahin is interested in leaving Spain, and whether Mourinho is willing to let him move on.

Modric and his representatives are scheduled to hold talks with Tottenham chairman Daniel Levy this week to discuss his future.

Bookmaker Sky Bet on Monday afternoon still made Madrid odds-on favourites to sign the midfielder this summer, ahead of United, Barcelona - who are believed to have scouted him during Euro 2012 - and Chelsea.

If Madrid are going to allow Sahin to leave I'd rather we went for him then spend huge money on Luka

bullvine

Regarding the IPO, if the club is floated what happens to the 500million debt that is currently attached the club?

Mitch Connor

lordgoat wrote: »

Are peoples trying to debate if players get better as they get older?

Course they do.

Alot will come down to where United see Jones's future, he'l lbe a good player in wither MF or CB but ultimately it will be the club that decide which is best for him.

At the moment I'd say CB, but you can still learn alot from the game from playing in midfield and then dropiing back. You learn communication and concentration and how to help your FB's out. All vital for when playing at the back.

Also keane is a grand poster, just take with a pinch of salt at times (like most really). He just speaks his mind bluntly. No problem with it myself.

My fear is that his versatility will turn him into another john O'Shea. Not a bad player by any means, but not the top player he could become. Jack of all trades master of none stuff.

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

News/speculation on the IPO

One persepctive can be taken that that is not such a bad thing. The Glazers have put the club in debt. Having said that the club is ran quite well; aside from the debt. The floatation would reduce this debt freeing up cash for transfers and wages. However you don't want a cubic expression scenario occuring again where Magnier and McManus held the club to ransom over a f**king horse.

The Glazers will have a huge controlling share and there is no reason to suggest they'll change tack with their stewardship of the club.

DM_7

lordgoat wrote: »

keane2097 wrote: »

It's obv an unquantifiable area, I just find the idea that his ball control or whatever being 100% not good enough to be way too black and white, especially at 20.

I'd agree with this alot.

I also agree with this.

kryogen

bullvine wrote: »

Regarding the IPO, if the club is floated what happens to the 500million debt that is currently attached the club?

The debt is less then 500 million, but what happens to it is up to the owners afaik.

They can use the money raised by a share sale to clear the debt, or they can choose not to.

Mitch Connor

bullvine wrote: »

Regarding the IPO, if the club is floated what happens to the 500million debt that is currently attached the club?

No one knows.

It will depend on how much we raise via the IPO for a start.

In a perfect world we would raise more than enough to wipe off the 400+million debt, but there is no guanatee of either raising enough of the glazers using it for that anyway.

I think it is the most sensible choice as I can't see how else the Glazers plan to pay off the bond, but nothing about the takeover has been sensible.

I do think they have to release a document prior to listing that details exactly what the plan for the proceeds would be - hopefully that is the case.

Orando Broom

bullvine wrote: »

Regarding the IPO, if the club is floated what happens to the 500million debt that is currently attached the club?

It depends. You'd assume these shares will be ordinary preference shares as opposed debentures or other such share instruments so they'd be transferred for cash. The cash presumably, would be used to pay down the debt which would be attracting pretty stiff interest rates.

kryogen

Orando Broom wrote: »

One persepctive can be taken that that is not such a bad thing. The Glazers have put the club in debt. Having said that the club is ran quite well; aside from the debt. The floatation would reduce this debt freeing up cash for transfers and wages. However you don't want a cubic expression scenario occuring again where Magnier and McManus held the club to ransom over a f**king horse.

The Glazers will have a huge controlling share and there is no reason to suggest they'll change tack with their stewardship of the club.

I don't mind them holding on to control of the club, apart from the financial pressure they have put on the club they have shown themselves to be failry good owners tbh. They have also grown the brand considerably during their tenure, the debt is the only issue I have with them, if they clear that I'll be delighted.

Orando Broom

kryogen wrote: »

I don't mind them holding on to control of the club, apart from the financial pressure they have put on the club they have shown themselves to be failry good owners tbh. They have also grown the brand considerably during their tenure, the debt is the only issue I have with them, if they clear that I'll be delighted.

Same. also I'd be happy with the share structure they are proposing. It would (assuming the IPO is successful) be a very stable arrangement in so far as power struggles would be negated by the prohibitive cost of such a venture.

bullvine

Doesnt sound like they would be forced to clear the debt though, which would be a tad worrying.

Though having that much debt might have a negative effect on the share value?

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No one knows.

It will depend on how much we raise via the IPO for a start.

In a perfect world we would raise more than enough to wipe off the 400+million debt, but there is no guanatee of either raising enough of the glazers using it for that anyway.

I think it is the most sensible choice as I can't see how else the Glazers plan to pay off the bond, but nothing about the takeover has been sensible.

I do think they have to release a document prior to listing that details exactly what the plan for the proceeds would be - hopefully that is the case.

I think they will use it to clear the debt, or to clear the vast majority of it anyway, it is the easiest way for them to clear it. As you said, it is the most sensible thing to do, and despite misgivings they really are very good businessmen with a great advisors.