Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

kryogen

bullvine wrote: »

Doesnt sound like they would be forced to clear the debt though, which would be a tad worrying.

Though having that much debt might have a negative effect on the share value?

The club is still servicing its debt comfortably and as such the debt does not really have a negative implication in terms of share value.

I think they will clear the debt or most of it, with the money raised because it is a way for them to clear the debt without them actually having to use their own money to do it. This would be agreeable to them surely

TheTownie

kryogen wrote: »

News/speculation on the IPO

I wonder how eager the Glazer's are to raise this IPO? You could argue its years away yet.

With the new TV deal in 2013 and the new kit deal in 2015 (Can kit deals be cut short by renewals?) would they not wait until then? The bond doesn't mature until 2017. Will the markets be any worse off in a few years then they are now?

Utd's total revenue will have increased noticeably by then and probably more commercial deals will have been done by then. Also factor in the currency rates and Utd could find themselves back at the top of the Deloitte Football Money League which would be a better time to launch an IPO.

Orando Broom

bullvine wrote: »

Doesnt sound like they would be forced to clear the debt though, which would be a tad worrying.

Though having that much debt might have a negative effect on the share value?

I would imagine they would clear it. United are extremely profitable and by clearing the debt the Glazers would make a lot of money.

They have to clear it. Just had a look there the money was loaned to the Glazers as payment in kind loans which were sold to hedge funds. These fall due in five years. If the glazers don't pay them they lose United.

bullvine

Orando Broom wrote: »

I would imagine they would clear it. United are extremely profitable and by clearing the debt the Glazers would make a lot of money.

They have to clear it. Just had a look there the money was loaned to the Glazers as payment in kind loans which were sold to hedge funds. These fall due in five years. If the glazers don't pay them they lose United.

Thats good to know!

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

I think they will use it to clear the debt, or to clear the vast majority of it anyway, it is the easiest way for them to clear it. As you said, it is the most sensible thing to do, and despite misgivings they really are very good businessmen with a great advisors.

That is my take - also surely maintaining the debt at current levels and pocketing the cash would be bad for the share price and thus affect the interest in the IPO to begin with.

Orando Broom

bullvine wrote: »

Thats good to know!

Obviously they could take the risk and not pay it off but from my viewing of it, that would be retarded. Remove the debt, even just ignore it and you have a really, really profitable business. Probably one of the best ran sports franchises in the world. So far it seems recession proof so it would be in the interests of the Glazers not to be beholden to anybody.

Mitch Connor

Orando Broom wrote: »

I would imagine they would clear it. United are extremely profitable and by clearing the debt the Glazers would make a lot of money.

They have to clear it. Just had a look there the money was loaned to the Glazers as payment in kind loans which were sold to hedge funds. These fall due in five years. If the glazers don't pay them they lose United.

The loans to the Glazers, PIKs, have disappeared. they have already been paid off.

How they were paid off, no one has a clue, but they don't exist anymore. the only documented debt related to United at this point is the Bonds.

TheTownie

Orando Broom wrote: »

Obviously they could take the risk and not pay it off but from my viewing of it, that would be retarded. Remove the debt, even just ignore it and you have a really, really profitable business. Probably one of the best ran sports franchises in the world. So far it seems recession proof so it would be in the interests of the Glazers not to be beholden to anybody.

Not paying it off is not really a risk anyway. They could just issue another bond to payoff the current bond and continue to pay the fixed interest amount every year. Many companies survive on such a cycle.

I hope they don't do that obviously enough.

stooge

In case some of you are wondering why I am able to post here, this post from Gavredking should clear things up:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79313298&postcount=648

Looks like someone jumped to the conclusion I was a re-reg and I was banned without checking if that assumption was true or not. Took 4/5 days to get the ban overturned but all sorted now. cheers Frisbee.


OT. Great news that the Kagawa deal is finalised. Hopefully a few more on the way now that the euros are over. Priority for me would be a CM with full backs the next in line. Fairly impressed with Di Rossi's workrate last night for Italy and he has expressed a desire to play in England.

Mitch Connor

TheTownie wrote: »

Not paying it off is not really a risk anyway. They could just issue another bond to payoff the current bond and continue to pay the fixed interest amount every year. Many companies survive on such a cycle.

I hope they don't do that obviously enough.

But you can not be sure to get the re-issue Bonds at good rates - who knows what will happen to the Bond market? Using the IPO to pay down the debt is the least risky and cheapest way of doing it. I figured it was their plan from the start to do something like this, nothing else makes sense from a business perspective.

If United continue to be hamstrung by the debt the competitiveness of the club will falter and so will the value - they have to deal with the debt while it is still economically viable to do so.

Ultimately, i think the Glazers stand to make more money out of United on a personal level by paying off the debt and then taking their yearly dividend that continuing to pay off the Bonds and thus reducing what they can take out of the club.

TheTownie

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But you can not be sure to get the re-issue Bonds at good rates - who knows what will happen to the Bond market? Using the IPO to pay down the debt is the least risky and cheapest way of doing it. I figured it was their plan from the start to do something like this, nothing else makes sense from a business perspective.

If United continue to be hamstrung by the debt the competitiveness of the club will falter and so will the value - they have to deal with the debt while it is still economically viable to do so.

Ultimately, i think the Glazers stand to make more money out of United on a personal level by paying off the debt and then taking their yearly dividend that continuing to pay off the Bonds and thus reducing what they can take out of the club.

Agreed the IPO is the best course of action for both the Glazers and the club but they have an alternative, not a good one but an alternative none the less. Certainly not IPO or nothing.

You couldn't make such a call on a bond re-issue until much closer to the maturity date of the current bond anyway because, as you say, the markets are impossible to call.

MagicMarker

stooge wrote: »

In case some of you are wondering why I am able to post here, this post from Gavredking should clear things up:

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79313298&postcount=648

Looks like someone jumped to the conclusion I was a re-reg and I was banned without checking if that assumption was true or not. Took 4/5 days to get the ban overturned but all sorted now. cheers Frisbee.

Yeah we don't care.

stooge

stooge wrote: »

In case some of you are wondering why I am able to post here, this post from Gavredking should clear things up:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79313298&postcount=648

Looks like someone jumped to the conclusion I was a re-reg and I was banned without checking if that assumption was true or not. Took 4/5 days to get the ban overturned but all sorted now. cheers Frisbee.


OT. Great news that the Kagawa deal is finalised. Hopefully a few more on the way now that the euros are over. Priority for me would be a CM with full backs the next in line. Fairly impressed with Di Rossi's workrate last night for Italy and he has expressed a desire to play in England.

What's your opinions on de Gea ?


/joke

Mitch Connor

TheTownie wrote: »

Agreed the IPO is the best course of action for both the Glazers and the club but they have an alternative, not a good one but an alternative none the less. Certainly not IPO or nothing.

You couldn't make such a call on a bond re-issue until much closer to the maturity date of the current bond anyway because, as you say, the markets are impossible to call.

Yeah - and this is part of my issue.

I would be surprised if there was more than 1 high value IPO. If the IPO goes ahead now, and the proceeds are not used to pay down the debt, what happens if the Bond Market is in a hoop come maturity time - new Bond is more expensive or not possible and IPO has been done so possibly not an option then either.

I think doing the IPO now and not using it to either pay off the majority or all of the debt would be insanely stupid. If they issue the IPO and pay off the debt, they are sitting on club in a fantastic position to become better on the pitch and bigger in the business world without putting a cent into the club - it will pay for itself, player transfers and all.

lordgoat

We will see how good owners they are when we hit a barren few years trophy wise and the coffers aren't filling up as well as they have been. Then I'd be very very worried about them.

At the end of the day, the club is little more to them than a cash cow.

Samich

91% - Danny Welbeck's pass completion rate of 91% at Euro 2012 is level with Mesut Özil and Andrés Iniesta

Stick him in midfield Fergie!!

Samich

Some more gems from the Man Utd page on twitter :P

"we need modrich: carrick nd cuberley cannot do it on there own!!!"

"U cant be better than Jisung Park you stupid jap. u wont be in lineup. Youll end your players life tackled by VIDIC.Haha Jap won't do it Jap"

"we need frank ribbery in the midfield he is scholes and keane mixed into one"

"U r a ****head! (Please send this comment personally to Johnny Evans)"

"Docter fugson can u see da team needs fixin? Carrk n Evans are like influenza, now heal with yakubu,sahin, and mata!"

:pac:

TheTownie

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yeah - and this is part of my issue.

I would be surprised if there was more than 1 high value IPO. If the IPO goes ahead now, and the proceeds are not used to pay down the debt, what happens if the Bond Market is in a hoop come maturity time - new Bond is more expensive or not possible and IPO has been done so possibly not an option then either.

I think doing the IPO now and not using it to either pay off the majority or all of the debt would be insanely stupid. If they issue the IPO and pay off the debt, they are sitting on club in a fantastic position to become better on the pitch and bigger in the business world without putting a cent into the club - it will pay for itself, player transfers and all.

I'd rather not worry about such a doomsday scenario until it moves at least a couple steps closer to fruition!

Orando Broom

lordgoat wrote: »

We will see how good owners they are when we hit a barren few years trophy wise and the coffers aren't filling up as well as they have been. Then I'd be very very worried about them.

At the end of the day, the club is little more to them than a cash cow.

What club isn't? In almost every professional club sport rich owners have them as their play things. So far the Glazers have been better than most.

The first few years they took it over were hardly a bed of roses. Chelsea were dominating and to be fair the Glazers were not found wanting in assisting Ferguson in competing.

I'd agree that the debt on the club is hampering transfer activity but I'd rather United keep signing young unheralded players than megastars. It is a model that has worked fairly well up to now.

Sports franchises seem to be one of the few areas of business that overall is showing growth. There seems to be no signs of recession or any contraction, if anything, the opposite.

PhlegmyMoses

I'd much prefer United kept doing what they are doing, transfer-wise. It's like Barca-lite, except they generally don't have to pay for the young lads. I'm not sure I'd get the same satisfaction out of raping the league with a load of players bought in their peak. Purely subjective, of course.

TheDoc

Its unrealistic to think we can rake in the amount of wins like we did in the ninties and early 2000's.

There is stiff competition now with City and Chelsea, and it wont be long before there top 4-6 will all be gunning for the league year in year out.

Our biggest fear is yet to come, when SAF moves on, so I think its only realistic to employ a policy of youth and to ensure our team stays competitive.

It was an absolute credit to the club last year that really against all odds we remained competitive till the last minute

Giggsy11

Kagawa thrilled by United future

Shinji Kagawa is feeling positive about starting life as a Manchester United player after signing his four-year contract at Old Trafford.

The former Borussia Dortmund star passed a medical and visited Carrington during his brief trip to England on Friday and is excited about the prospect of pulling on the red shirt, even though he is unsure which number he will be wearing.

"First, I went to the training facility [Carrington], then signed at Old Trafford," he told reporters at Narita International Aiport.

"Though it was a short stay, it meant a lot. It was a memorable day for me. There were many contracts to sign, which made me realise how big the club is.

"What came to my mind was how exciting and tough a challenge this is, and how scoring goals at this stadium would make me so happy.

"United is a fantastic organisation. For instance, the training facility is very well maintained. It is an environment I had never experienced before.

"I was excited to see the stadium. Having imagined myself playing there as my home stadium, I was impressed.

"Everyone welcomed me warmly and said 'Thank you for signing with us.' I know this is just the beginning but I am glad I have made it to the starting point."

Kagawa was asked if his shirt number was discussed following some talk he would wear the number seven vacated by Michael Owen, but the Japan star appeared to quash those rumours.

"We did [discuss it] but nothing will be confirmed until Sir Alex comes back," Kagawa explained. "Since I am very new to the club, I have no intention to get an important number. Let's wait and see how it goes.

"I just told them my hope because I didn't know which numbers are available.

"Having completed the transfer, I can't think anything negative anymore. I feel positive. I would like to achieve big things with such a big, historical club. I know there’s a tough challenge ahead of me but I am excited to have the chance to take it."

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2012/Jun/shinji-kagawa-enjoys-united-visit.aspx?pageNo=1

So all the talk of him rejecting #7 is not true then, would love to see Nani getting #7 though.

Al Capwned

stooge wrote: »

OT. Great news that the Kagawa deal is finalised. Hopefully a few more on the way now that the euros are over. Priority for me would be a CM with full backs the next in line. Fairly impressed with Di Rossi's workrate last night for Italy and he has expressed a desire to play in England.

Em......

Kylo Ren

alproctor wrote: »

Em......

Don't bother boy.

Cantona's Collars

Reports from Dutch media that United have bid €25 million for Rodriguez & Liverpool have bid €28.5 million.

Hmm.the choice of CL football & a chance of winning the league or Europa League & mid table mediocrity.

http://www.elfvoetbal.nl/nieuws/194397_liverpool-wil-united-overbieden

Mars Bar

The Little Pea is on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/#!/CH14_

amiable

zerks wrote: »

Reports from Dutch media that United have bid €25 million for Rodriguez & Liverpool have bid €28.5 million.

Hmm.the choice of CL football & a chance of winning the league or Europa League & mid table mediocrity.

http://www.elfvoetbal.nl/nieuws/194397_liverpool-wil-united-overbieden

I'd seriously doubt Liverpool would splash all their cash on one player this summer even if he would go there which I agree with you on.

Cantona's Collars

amiable wrote: »

I'd seriously doubt Liverpool would splash all their cash on one player this summer even if he would go there which I agree with you on.

With the talk of limited funds,I couldn't see it happening either plus Fergie loves his wingers so more likely to end up at United.

supersean1999

G.K. wrote: »

supersean1999

- What do you think he thinks? :pac:

one thing i know for sure , some people dont thinks its possible there wrong, as for de gea, thought he was pretty good especially coming from a different country and being young in goal keeping terms, once he bulks up he will be a star, as for welbeck, never going to be as good as you seem to think he will be dont see it i hope im wrong, then again it is my opinion im sure im allowed that

Samich

3 years ago I wouldn't have thought Welbeck and Carroll would be England internationals :P

G.K.

supersean1999 wrote: »

one thing i know for sure , some people dont thinks its possible there wrong, as for de gea, thought he was pretty good especially coming from a different country and being young in goal keeping terms, once he bulks up he will be a star, as for welbeck, never going to be as good as you seem to think he will be dont see it i hope im wrong, then again it is my opinion im sure im allowed that

Certainly.

I believe it was Voltaire who said "I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That's the case here. The forum would be awful if we weren't allowed to speak our opinion.

supersean1999

G.K. wrote: »

Certainly.

I believe it was Voltaire who said "I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That's the case here. The forum would be awful if we weren't allowed to speak our opinion.

christ your quick, , look welbeck will improve thats obvious my point i was trying to make was he wont be a striker who will lead a team to trophies the star man so to say, i def dont want to see him leave,

homerjay2005

zerks wrote: »

With the talk of limited funds,I couldn't see it happening either plus Fergie loves his wingers so more likely to end up at United.

he can play through the middle and isnt a winger as such. however he is not what we need seen as we have Kagawa, but this represents a totally different approach to attacking football.

fergiesfolly

Samich wrote: »

3 years ago I wouldn't have thought Welbeck and Carroll would be England internationals :P

Ya. And if they wern't English, they wouldn't be.

Lukekul

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Ya. And if they wern't English, they wouldn't be.

supersean1999

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Ya. And if they wern't English, they wouldn't be.

thats a tricky one to figure out,

supersean1999

any word on lewandowski (wrong spelling ???) love to see him coming in, with berba owen macheda going, 4 center forwards needed,

Professional Griefer

I can't see that happening at all. Especially since Fergie said Keane was going to be involved next season but he got injured. Theres no way he'll go out and spend big on a striker.

Owen_S

Ix Deadmau5 wrote: »

I can't see that happening at all. Especially since Fergie said Keane was going to be involved next season but he got injured. Theres no way he'll go out and spend big on a striker.

I'm almost sure that before the injury, he said he wanted to loan out Keane to a championship club as his physical development was lagging.

With Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez(possibly Berba too), and a new attacking midfielder in Kagawa, I think it is unlikely that we will buy an established striker this season.

Eathrin

I suppose one of my more controversial opinions here would be that Welbeck is overrated. Berbatov included, I would always have had Welbeck as 4th striker, excluding his run of form at the beginning of the season.

Kylo Ren

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Ya. And if they wern't English, they wouldn't be.

This is genius.

supersean1999

imo we a missing a big center forward (one who runs and makes defenders work (not berba) , a plan b ,

TheTownie

Macheda could well be the fourth striker next season. His agent was quoted saying as much;

Macheda's agent Giovanni Bia said: "I believe that Federico will remain with Manchester United."

Of course Utd might have other ideas but strengthening other positions are of higher priority at the moment at least.

supersean1999

TheTownie wrote: »

Macheda could well be the fourth striker next season. His agent was quoted saying as much;



Of course Utd might have other ideas but strengthening other positions are of higher priority at the moment at least.

dont see a qpr sub last season being to high up the list, he never progressed as of yet

TheTownie

supersean1999 wrote: »

dont see a qpr sub last season being to high up the list, he never progressed as of yet

Owen is gone.
Berba is going by the looks of it.
Keane is injured.

Kagawa isn't a striker but his inclusion could easily result in Utd playing one striker which means less game time for the other strikers.

That leaves Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez. Do the math.

supersean1999

TheTownie wrote: »

Owen is gone.
Berba is going by the looks of it.
Keane is injured.

Kagawa isn't a striker but his inclusion could easily result in Utd playing one striker which means less game time for the strikers.

That leaves Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez. Do the math.

he is supposed to be loaned, so not counting him for next season,so do we have 6 strikers so is that right?? i presume you have heard of injuries and having options, we need 4 strikers, and berba macheda keane prob wont be any of them next season, so try your maths

Eathrin

Can't Powell play up front if we needed him?

Kylo Ren

supersean1999 wrote: »

he is supposed to be loaned, so not counting him for next season,so do we have 6 strikers so is that right?? i presume you have heard of injuries and having options, we need 4 strikers, and berba macheda keane prob wont be any of them next season, so try your maths

Converting to a 4-2-3-1 will not require 4 strikers.

TheTownie

supersean1999 wrote: »

he is supposed to be loaned, so not counting him for next season,so do we have 6 strikers so is that right?? i presume you have heard of injuries and having options, we need 4 strikers, and berba macheda keane prob wont be any of them next season, so try your maths

I said Macheda could be the fourth striker. No guarantee he will go out on loan. I even gave you a quote from his agent and everything.

Its a possibility. Earthrin is right. I forgot about Powell. He can play there too.

Signing a striker isn't the top priority.

kryogen

zerks wrote: »

Reports from Dutch media that United have bid €25 million for Rodriguez & Liverpool have bid €28.5 million.

Hmm.the choice of CL football & a chance of winning the league or Europa League & mid table mediocrity.

http://www.elfvoetbal.nl/nieuws/194397_liverpool-wil-united-overbieden

If there is any truth in it, and I would stress the word if, then I think that Nani is on his way out, I can't see any need for Rodriguez, as talented as he is, with Nani Kagawa Young and Valencia already at the club, although now I have it wrote down, if its a 4231 it may work as he can move anywhere in that 3, Nani and Young can also do that, I havent really seen Nani centrally but Im sure he could do it adequately if required.

If he comes in I think Nani is gone though. Would not want him in place of Nani tbh. Should have forgot about Young and went for him last year when he was on the radar also. Hardly getting rid of Young after one season, and Tony the Tiger better not be going anywhere either!

Sorry this is a bit rambly, Im kinda typing as I think

Theoretically it could work well for the squad to have such options, but keeping them all happy including the strikers would be very very tricky. Id hate to see Nani go