Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12

Blatter

BBC Sport ‏@BBCSport
Queens Park Rangers agree deal to sign Park Ji-sung from Man Utd for a fee in the region of £5m via @BenSmithBBC

kryogen

Good read here, its about the IPO so if not interested skip the post completely!

Caveat Emptor: The Glazers Prepare To Float Manchester UnitedPosted by Ian on Jul 6, 2012 in Latest, Premier League | 0 comments

There is a certain irony to Manchester United announcing their IPO in the same week as the Supporters Direct annual conference is held in London. While there are those that amongst us that still believe that the route towards a successful, inclusive and financially sustainable future lays in giving the supporters of clubs an active role in their running, the behemoth that has sat astride the Premier League for the last two decades is taking another step away from accountability and a step towards having, effectively, somebody else pay for their debts whilst having no say in the running of the club.

“Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position”, says the document filed with the New York Stock Exchange in preparation for the clubs flotation, without, of course, asking the question of how one of the richest football clubs could possibly have found itself a little over £423m in debt. Since the Glazer family took advantage of the rules of the stock exchange over £500m has been spent on servicing the debt, including £108.6m in one year – to the end of June 2010 – as the Glazers refinanced the clubs debts. It is impossible to reach any conclusion other than that the club has found itself in the financial position in which it is today because of circumstances entirely brought about by the Glazers themselves.

What would investors be getting for their money, though? It’s a question that is worth asking, because anybody could get involved with this, and with times being hard and all stock markets being capable of quite volatile, few would wish to see a repeat of the stock market adventures of English football clubs in the late 1990s when many, many people – including but not limited to supporters of the clubs themselves – got their fingers burned by clubs that floated themselves having massively overvalued themselves with their share prices. At Aston Villa, for example, shares in the club at the time of its flotation in May 1997 – with it having finished the two previous seasons in the Premier League in fourth and fifth place – were valued at £11 each. By 2004, those shares were worth less than £3 each, and this was a pattern that was repeated elsewhere.

Well, the answer to that question is, from a purely investment point of view, not a great deal, on the surface at least. Well, investors won’t find themselves getting an annual dividend from the club at any time soon – Red Football LLC, the legal vehicle which owns the club, has already confirmed that it won’t be paying any dividends in the foreseeable future. Nor will they have much in the way of voting rights. Investors will be invited to buy a class of shares in that company which will carry one-tenth the voting rights of those being issued to the Glazers themselves. So if you are an investor in the club and they start making an absolute hash of the way that the club is being run, you wouldn’t have any right to do anything other than watch balefully as your investment pours down the drain.

The share offer is dependent upon investors having their attention drawn by the share values increasing over time, but there is no guarantee of this happening and previous experience of football clubs and the stock market has not, as we have already seen above, been a particularly happy one. Manchester United themselves, of course, were the exception to this rule, but even they were hastily removed from it not long after the Glazers finalised their purchase – well, take-over – of the club.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from all of the above is that the Glazers want, ultimately, to have their cake and eat it. They want to retain absolute control of the club and they don’t want to pay out the sort of dividends to share-holders that they have been getting themselves - £23 million in personal loans and consultancy fees out of Manchester United between 2006 and 2010. The question is quite a simple one: will the investors of the New York Stock Exchange let them?

Most supporters, however, do not care for such matters. The majority are primarily concerned with what happens on the pitch. Manchester United supporters will need little reminding of the way in which last season ended, but did it have to be that way, and could this offer be a signal for the end of an era for the club? That Alex Ferguson has, broadly speaking, continued the clubs success with what has – in comparison with the other giants of European football, for that is the stage upon which they now play – occasionally felt over the last few years is something of a given, but it is possible that Fergusons replacement – and, much as it is something that the clubs supporters may not wish to countenance, Ferguson will have to go eventually – will not be as generous in his acceptance of the purse-strings being tightly guarded as the current manager is.

But both Ferguson and the club have spent a considerable amount of time over the last few years denying, that the debt leveraged against United by the Glazers upon their buying it was detrimental the club’s financial operations and clout in the transfer market. That the club is floating to reduce that debt would seem to contradict that statement, and the fact that this debt will now likely be paid down offers no guarantees of fresh investment in a team that was creaking towards the end of last season.

So, in the week of the annual conference of the body charged with the often thankless task of promoting transparency within football and the positive aspects of supporter ownership in football, Englands biggest club prepares to float itself on the New York Stock Exchange with registered offices in Delaware – the corporation tax state – and the Cayman Islands to pay off a debt that was acquired as the cost of a leveraged take-over which has netted the club no tangible benefit in itself. When people talk of the madness of modern football finances, it is surely this sort of thing that they are describing. Back in London tomorrow, though, there will be a club represented with strong community roots, firm convictions and an unswerving belief in making friends rather than millionaires. For the disillusioned of Old Trafford, FC United of Manchester remains a suitable bolt hole should this madness get too much

Samich

kryogen wrote: »

Anybody mention Rafael's new hair do yet?



Ian Brown?

awh hell naw

He's gonna be **** with that hair do

OctavarIan

Coletrickle88 wrote: »

I personally think Wright-Phillips , Mackie and Tarabt are all better than Park on the wing I also think Derry Barton Faurlin and Buzsáky are all better options than park in centre mid .

I think Taarabt plays best in a central role, either way he totally failed to make the jump up to the PL last season. Wright-Phillips is very one dimensional. Mackie is probably a better winger than Park I'd agree there. He'll definitely be a winger if he signs, can't see him fitting in there centrally.

I think Park offers a lot to QPR. Any club in their position would benefit from his experience, work rate and versatility.

Samich

Also yes, Park is gone! Brilliant player for us though and a great buy for Utd.

MagicMarker

kryogen wrote: »

One huge positive if Park is genuinely going as is now gathering momentum, a good midfield signing must be coming in!

No way he would be letting Park go if someone was not pretty much sown up

I'm not so sure, Park usually played on the left.

I'm sad to see him go, he has been a good servant to the club.

kryogen

Thanks for the service Park, great signing, great servant and if the fee is correct a ****ing excellent sale price!

Hope he can find some form again and that the move revitalises him.

kryogen

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm not so sure, Park usually played on the left.

I'm sad to see him go, he has been a good servant to the club.

Ah we have to have someone lined up!

He was another body that could have played in the centre, Pogba also gone, Scholes can't do every week, Giggs really shouldn't be near the starting XI and you can't rely on Clev or Ando to be fit. We absolutely have to be signing someone!

Mikeyt086

Samich wrote: »

awh hell naw

He's gonna be **** with that hair do

The curls were the source of his insanity.

It remains to be seen whether or not a more mature Rafael will rule all, or if his insanity was all he had... or if nothing will change except Mars Bar thinking he is totes delish.

Blatter

That should be up on the BBC website very soon.

Great bit of business if we managed to get that for him. He was a very useful player for us over the years but he went downhill massively last season and anything in the region of £5m is simply too good to turn down when compared with the alternative of keeping him and hoping he substantially improved.

OctavarIan

kryogen wrote: »

Ah we have to have someone lined up!

He was another body that could have played in the centre, Pogba also gone, Scholes can't do every week, Giggs really shouldn't be near the starting XI and you can't rely on Clev or Ando to be fit. We absolutely have to be signing someone!

Sir Alex: "Rafael, Jones and Valencia can all do a job there. I'm happy with the squad."

kryogen

OctavarIan wrote: »

Sir Alex: "Rafael, Jones and Valencia can all do a job there. I'm happy with the squad."

You know, if you had not said Valencia I would have probably believed that was a real quote! :eek:

Paul Tergat

I love Park and in one way gutted he is gone but its the right time for us and him.

Thanks for some monster big match performances

J. Marston

Scored a load of big goals against big teams for us. A loyal and hard-working player for United. Wish him the best. I don't like QPR but I hope they do well this season just for Park and Fabio's sake.



He treated Arsenal like a bitch, he scored over 700 goals against them in his time here.



Champion's League quarter final winner against Chelsea.



Winner against Liverpool.



Goal against AC Milan.

Siya Park .

Jimmy Iovine

Sorry to see Park go because he always gave 100%. He had probably come to the end of his time here though. The City match showed that.

I wonder how Evra will take the news now that his best friend has left the club :pac:.

kryogen

Some memorable moments there alright

Blatter

Word going around twitter (apparently from a press association reporter) that the fee for Park is actually £2m.

That'd be more realistic given his age and performance last season tbh.

Mental_Legend

Miguel Delaney saying that Anderson will be sold next, and the reason for selling him and Park are to free up wages for new signings.

seriousfizz

Would anybody really be surprised if we lost Park without signing a midfield replacement? I mean, it would be disastrous, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. Still waiting for Fergie to deploy Kagawa in cm.


/pessimistic.

kryogen

Blatter wrote: »

Word going around twitter (apparently from a press association reporter) that the fee for Park is actually £2m.

That'd be more realistic given his age and performance last season tbh.

That was what I said earlier would be a more realistic fee, would make more sense, takes the gloss off it a bit though

kryogen

seriousfizz wrote: »

Would anybody really be surprised if we lost Park without signing a midfield replacement? I mean, it would be disastrous, but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it happened. Still waiting for Fergie to deploy Kagawa in cm.


/pessimistic.

I genuinely would be surprised yes, unless he plans to have Powell involved straight away and is going to give one of the youth players a chance, which would be odd since he didnt last year with better talent

Someone has got to be coming!!

TheTownie

Blatter wrote: »

Word going around twitter (apparently from a press association reporter) that the fee for Park is actually £2m.

That'd be more realistic given his age and performance last season tbh.

That makes more sense alright.

£5M is just too good to be true.

seriousfizz

kryogen wrote: »

I genuinely would be surprised yes, unless he plans to have Powell involved straight away and is going to give one of the youth players a chance, which would be odd since he didnt last year with better talent

Someone has got to be coming!!

Well let's hope and pray! Moutinho would be fantastic, although you raise a good point about Powell. Wouldn't be adverse to seeing him get a decent amount of game time this season.

Red Crow

Selling Park won't mean we are going to sign someone in the middle.

I'm nearly certain that Cleverley/Anderson will be given a shot to partner Carrick this season and if none of them can break into the team when Giggs and Scholes retire next season we will then, eventually buy a CM.

I hope we buy a CM because I fear Kagawa could be played as a CM next year.

Park leaving while being a sad event, is a good sign that some of the dead wood (and I really hate to refer Park as 'dead-wood') is being moved out the squad.

Next summer hopefully Macheda, Bebe and Evra could all be sold/released and sadly Scholes and Giggs will surely retire.

If I was a betting man I'd say we won't buy a CM this season and we will see a Clev/Ando experiment and if that fails we'll see Kagawa being converted into a CM.

Jimmy Iovine

Eli Manning wrote: »

Selling Park won't mean we are going to sign someone in the middle.

I'm nearly certain that Cleverley/Anderson will be given a shot to partner Carrick this season and if none of them can break into the team when Giggs and Scholes retire next season we will then, eventually buy a CM.

I hope we buy a CM because I fear Kagawa could be played as a CM next year.

Park leaving while being a sad event, is a good sign that some of the dead wood (and I really hate to refer Park as 'dead-wood') is being moved out the squad.

Next summer hopefully Macheda, Bebe and Evra could all be sold/released and sadly Scholes and Giggs will surely retire.

If I was a betting man I'd say we won't buy a CM this season and we will see a Clev/Ando experiment and if that fails we'll see Kagawa being converted into a CM.

I hope and pray that every single you said in that post will be untrue next season, except for the "I hope we buy a CM" line.

tupac_healy

Eli Manning wrote: »

Selling Park won't mean we are going to sign someone in the middle.

I'm nearly certain that Cleverley/Anderson will be given a shot to partner Carrick this season and if none of them can break into the team when Giggs and Scholes retire next season we will then, eventually buy a CM.

I hope we buy a CM because I fear Kagawa could be played as a CM next year.

Park leaving while being a sad event, is a good sign that some of the dead wood (and I really hate to refer Park as 'dead-wood') is being moved out the squad.

Next summer hopefully Macheda, Bebe and Evra could all be sold/released and sadly Scholes and Giggs will surely retire.

If I was a betting man I'd say we won't buy a CM this season and we will see a Clev/Ando experiment and if that fails we'll see Kagawa being converted into a CM.

Oh no, I fear my theory about kagawa being the CM signing we are all expecting may be proving more true....

With selling park (thanks for the service, some overpaid useless muppets could learn a lot from your work rate alone) and apparantly ando out the door next we will be short for sure next season....

Fingers crossed fergie has a surprise for us all....

Red Crow

TBH seeing Lindegaard being converted into a CM won't surprise me.

I just think Fergie had big plans for Pogba next year. So we may see another 'talent' being signed. We are crying out for a CM and I think Fergie is too stubborn to buy one. If he signs a CM it will be the biggest signing we have ever made and I think he knows that.

Blatter

I'm very confident we'll sign a central midfielder tbh.

Fletcher's future is very uncertain and Fergie surely realises that he can't afford to attempt to rely on Anderson again after last season.

Carrick keeping up his form of last season is also far from certain. He had a pretty good first three seasons (by his standards) at the club, then went missing for around 18 months and has since found his bets form. What's to say he won't go missing again?

I think Cleverley will be in his plans big time. Scholes and Giggs are a year older and will surely play less, they just cannot be relied upon at this stage.

Pogba and Park (who filled in CM on quite a few occasions) are gone.

Tunnicliffe, Petrucci or Powell cannot be relied upon to make any sort of impact yet.

Kagawa cannot be expected to adapt to a CM role and be effective enough in one season. That could work in a similar way to Dembele at Fulham last season, but would be a huge risk.

kryogen

If there is nobody brought in for the centre of midfield it would be unbelievably short sighted and foolish.

Imagine Carrick got injured? What will the plan be when Ando gets his injury? Clev? Someone has to come

Gamb!t

Blatter wrote: »

I'm very confident we'll sign a central midfielder tbh.

Fletcher's future is very uncertain and Fergie surely realises that he can't afford to attempt to rely on Anderson again after last season.

Carrick keeping up his form of last season is also far from certain. He had a pretty good first three seasons (by his standards) at the club, then went missing for around 18 months and has since found his bets form. What's to say he won't go missing again?

I think Cleverley will be in his plans big time. Scholes and Giggs are a year older and will surely play less, they just cannot be relied upon at this stage.

Pogba and Park (who filled in CM on quite a few occasions) are gone.

Tunnicliffe, Petrucci or Powell cannot be relied upon to make any sort of impact yet.

Kagawa cannot be expected to adapt to a CM role and be effective enough in one season. That could work in a similar way to Dembele at Fulham last season, but would be a huge risk.

Moutinho has been linked.

Red Crow

kryogen wrote: »

If there is nobody brought in for the centre of midfield it would be unbelievably short sighted and foolish.

Imagine Carrick got injured? What will the plan be when Ando gets his injury? Clev? Someone has to come

Phil Jones - We aren't signing a CM.

UnitedIrishman

Sad to see Park go but he was regressing the last couple of years. Can't underestimate the role he had in our success over the last number of years however. He was one of the most positionally astute and hard working players we've ever had. Some people have this idea that he runs around a lot and that's it but his ability to know where to be or to push a player in the direction he wanted them to was second to none.

His best performances always came against the top sides. I think Fergie knew that he was a big game player when he signed him PSV (a CL semi-finalist the year before) and as many have said on here, he really pissed off Arsenal. One of his best performances was against Barca in the semi-final in 2008 at OT, jesus he just seemed to be everywhere that night. If he wasn't helping Evra out down the wing, he was covering across the midfield to get in amongst Xavi and co. at a time when we needed big players with a few out.

The last couple of years he's been poor enough and injuries haven't helped either. There's also only so long that you can play at the top level intermittently without form suffering. If you're not playing regularly, it becomes harder to just come in and do a job against Man City who are flying.

Hope he goes on and does well at QPR and I doubt he'll ever be accused of a lack of effort.

Red Crow

I also propose banning anyone who posts a Miguel Delaney tweet?
He's the worst of the worst ITK. He should write for football-rumours.co.uk

MagicMarker

Eli Manning wrote: »

TBH seeing Lindegaard being converted into a CM won't surprise me.

It would surprise me!!

Mental_Legend

Eli Manning wrote: »

I also propose banning anyone who posts a Miguel Delaney tweet?
He's the worst of the worst ITK. He should write for football-rumours.co.uk

Apologies. Thought he was one of the "good guys".

Red Crow

Mental_Legend wrote: »

Apologies. Thought he was one of the "good guys".

Don't apologise to me. I'm just saying I find him 'cringeworthy'.

tupac_healy

Out of interest, is anyone going to the Cork City VS Utd 11 game? I'm guessing there won't be many first team players there but might be a good oul night out all the same, might pop in and see if tickets are available during the week


Anyone going lads?

applehunter

tupac_healy wrote: »

Out of interest, is anyone going to the Cork City VS Utd 11 game? I'm guessing there won't be many first team players there but might be a good oul night out all the same, might pop in and see if tickets are available during the week


Anyone going lads?

Pop out to Turners Cross 6pm on Sunday:)

Grab your United match ticket and watch City's talented young side beat Bohs.

Quandary

Glad to see Park moved on now. He has been a huge asset to the club and his attitude was exemplary, never a word of complaint - great example to any young player. His time at Utd is done though - thanks for those big goals Ji!

I wonder would some bookies give odds on Fergie not signing a midfielder between now and the end of the transfer window? might be worth a punt

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Both happy and sad to see Park go. Happy because he's not good enough, but sad because he provided one of the best moments I've seen at a sporting event - that winner against Liverpool.

Samich

baz2009 wrote: »

Both happy and sad to see Park go. Happy because he's not good enough, but sad because he provided one of the best moments I've seen at a sporting event - that winner against Liverpool.

Which match was this?

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Samich wrote: »

Which match was this?

March 2010 at OT.

Samich

baz2009 wrote: »

March 2010 at OT.

crap, can't remember

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Samich wrote: »

crap, can't remember

Torres I think it was put Liverpool 1-0, then Reina saved Rooney's penalty, but he scored the rebound and then Park scored the winner in the second half.

Samich

baz2009 wrote: »

Torres I think it was put Liverpool 1-0, then Reina saved Rooney's penalty, but he scored the rebound and then Park scored the winner in the second half.

Grrr, can't remember still. The only one that's similar to that I remember was torres putting 'pool 1 up early on then we got a peno, and gigg scored it and we got the winner then?

Also I think Ji Sung goes above Phil Neville in the Cult heroes rankings

bullvine

baz2009 wrote: »

Torres I think it was put Liverpool 1-0, then Reina saved Rooney's penalty, but he scored the rebound and then Park scored the winner in the second half.

My memory of that match was Darren Fletchers performance, how we could have done with him last year. Also, Nevile had a good game that day.

lordgoat

bullvine wrote: »

My memory of that match was Darren Fletchers performance, how we could have done with him last year. Also, Nevile had a good game that day.

Fletch hauled us into that game.

kryogen

Im miss Fletch

MagicMarker

kryogen wrote: »

Im miss Fletch

Hello Miss Fletch.

kryogen

Some more links to articles/blogs on the financial stuff, I won't quote them out in case people are fed up of having to skip

Wired.com article
http://www.wired.com/business/2012/07/manchester-united/

Bit of a nutjob fan, the end is nigh I tell ya!
http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/a-manchester-united-fan-unravels-the-glazers-debt-and-predicts-destruction/


Reuters article
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/07/uk-manchesterunited-glazers-idUKBRE86602B20120707

Disclaimer: These views are the views of the individual sources and do not necessarily represent the views of Kryogen.