Parenting, children, licences

Pushtrak

From the "Things that should be Illegal" thread... Didn't want to derail that thread, but thought it could wind up an interesting discussion. There are definitely issues with the idea, but I can sort of appreciate the thinking behind it.

emmamurphy233 wrote: »

You should need a license to have a child. If you need one for a dog, why not something you're going to shape the entire life of. Everywhere there are unfit parents, and nothing is done about them. I see it everywhere where I live. Children turning out to be utter scumbags destined for prison life because their parents didn't give a **** about them growing up. To improve society we need to improve how children are raised.

christmas2012 wrote: »

licenses for everything,how are populations going to grow how can we pay off our economic debt if we impede growth like this?

you need a license for everything these days,universal social charge,the list goes on and on,do you think the household charge is fair too?

LordSmeg wrote: »

The population will still grow but it wont be full of scumbag wasters. Little Deco, son of Nikki and Thomo the dole scroungin, drug dealing, thievin scummers probably isnt going to grow up to contribute anything to society.
Anyone who wants to have a child should have to show they are capable of raising and providing for it. Not just poppin one out, claiming child benefit and straight onto the dole after 18 years of neglect which turns them into their parents.

christmas2012

There are too many licenses its a sneaky way of illiciting money from the unsuspecting public,not only that it impedes population growth,and that is something we cannot afford to do in this recession where we have debt..

Pushtrak

I don't think a licence is precisely right. In that, a licence is you have a dog, so you buy a licence. That wouldn't help anything. I certainly think a parenting course of some description would be very prudent though. I can't really say I'd be in fair of legislating a "You must do this" type scenario, but thinking the availability of more of such services would definitely be a benefit.

Edit: I'm interested in hearing more of the thoughts of people on either side of the fence on this. The posts seemed like an interesting thread could come about.

Please Kill Me

I know where you're coming from and licences wouldn't work (how many people drive cars and own dogs without them?) but I definitely agree that people should be screened/assessed in some way before they're permitted to have children!! Some people just really don't have a clue or don't care! Good idea for a thread!

El Weirdo

So what happens to someone who has a kid without having a licence?

Please Kill Me

El Weirdo wrote: »

So what happens to someone who has a kid without having a licence?

Ever see the movie Fortress??? :pac:

grindle

Not so much a license, but maybe a means-test?
Less pressure on us to support stupid choices that way.
Not sure what the punishment could be...


Hangings?

flutterflye

A course or a licence wouldn't help a damn.
It would have to be an ongoing support network of professionals or something.
The people who don't know how to be parents are not going to learn from a course.
And it is simply not possible to stop people having kids, unless something was brought in in which we are all given a device at birth to make us sterile, and it's only removed at a certain point in our adult lives.

The whole idea is just stupid.
So many people say "oh you need a licence to have a dog, you should need one to have a child" - seriously do these people actually stop and think about what they're saying? The absolute absurdity of it.

I agree in theory with the general point, but it's so far removed from what is actually possible and helpful that it is just too stupid a notion to entertain.

Micky Dolenz

A Licence in those cases is only another name for a tax. it's not like you have to prove competency to have a TV or a dog.

Scioch

Ideally what you'd want to do is fix everyone and then have them apply to have it reversed when they want to have a child.

El Weirdo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A Licence in those cases is only another name for a tax. it's not like you have to prove competency to have a TV or a dog.

:eek:

So that TV Licence holder's refresher course that I've just paid 400 notes for is a scam?!

Logical Fallacy

christmas2012 wrote: »

There are too many licenses its a sneaky way of illiciting money from the unsuspecting public,not only that it impedes population growth,and that is something we cannot afford to do in this recession where we have debt..

What you are saying makes no sense. What is the point of a higher population if the population increase is dependant on government spending to survive?

We needs jobs for the people we have, not more people with no jobs.

SafeSurfer

The right to have children is a basic human right.

One suggestion that could work is that in order to be eligible for children's allowence you have to complete a parenting course. Including topics like nutrition, health, coping strategies, contraception and legal parenting responsibilities.

A pre marriage course is required to get married in the church so this could be a way for the state to interact and train parents before handing over thousands of euro in child support.

If you don't do the course you don't get paid.

Micky Dolenz

El Weirdo wrote: »

:eek:

So that TV Licence holder's refresher course that I've just paid 400 notes for is a scam?!

Nah, that's legit. Just be sure to forward on the next instalment to me as soon as you can.

El Weirdo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Nah, that's legit. Just be sure to forward on the next instalment to me as soon as you can.

PM sent.

Scioch

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The right to have children is a basic human right.

As is the right to grow up in a good environment a basic human right for the kid. You cant disregard the welfare of the kid to grant some idiot the right to have a child they cannot provide for. So to me the kids welfare clearly comes before the want of the parent to have a child.

If you cannot provide and care for a child you should not be encouraged to have one.

christmas2012

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

What you are saying makes no sense. What is the point of a higher population if the population increase is dependant on government spending to survive?

We needs jobs for the people we have, not more people with no jobs.

if we have more growth,ie more consumers there is more spending ie shops and businessess in ireland supplying jobs dont close down,and populations always attract big business as they want to sell sell sell..

hondasam

It's a pity it was not a requirement before this thread was started. You cannot compare having kids to owning a dog or a TV.

Devi

I think the most realistic would be a basic course on parenting skills that you have to pass before children's allowence is paid. A licence to have kids sounds abit much tbh most people won't go for it. I mean how do you leagaly define a scumbag anyway.

Pushtrak

christmas2012 wrote: »

if we have more growth,ie more consumers there is more spending ie shops and businessess in ireland supplying jobs dont close down,and populations always attract big business as they want to sell sell sell..

Businesses can only have so many staff, there can be only so many employed. So, at some point, you are going to have lots of unemployment. I'd have figured just looking at Ireland today would give an example of jobs not being easy to come by.

Scioch

christmas2012 wrote: »

if we have more growth,ie more consumers there is more spending ie shops and businessess in ireland supplying jobs dont close down,and populations always attract big business as they want to sell sell sell..

But isnt all that a bit pointless when taxes have to be raised to fund the public service bill ?

Slow sustained growth is what we actually need, not something thats impossible to achieve like infinite growth to meet the demand of a quickly increasing population. That just leads to a never ending cycle of boom - bust.

Slow it all down I say.

downwithpeace

El Weirdo wrote: »

So what happens to someone who has a kid without having a licence?

See the poor Chinese lady on the news recently, a good reason to ditch the license idea.

Parenting classes in and out of school for all would be parents, it would at least help in teaching proper care for the child, after that is another thing.

Scioch

I'll go a bit further here and I'll probably get a bit if stick for this.

You should have to prove your intelligent, caring and stable enough to raise a child.

If you cannot prove that then you should be refused any assistance and if you still have a child then the child should be taken and raised in state care. Raising a child shouldnt be a right afforded to anyone who wants to give it a go. Your bringing a conscious being into the world and are responsible for who they become.

Raising a kid to be a scumbag really is no different than abusing them so it should be knocked on the head before the crime happens by requiring parents to show that they are capable before the kid suffers when it becomes apparent they are not.

hondasam

LordSmeg wrote: »

I'll go a bit further here and I'll probably get a bit if stick for this.

You should have to prove your intelligent, caring and stable enough to raise a child.

You could be all of these things and still be a crap parent.

If you cannot prove that the child should be taken and raised in state care. Raising a child shouldnt be a right afforded to anyone who wants to give it a go. Your bringing a conscious being into the world and are responsible for who they become.

This would be better how?

Raising a kid to be a scumbag really is no different than abusing them so it should be knocked on the head before the crime happens by requiring parents to show that they are capable before the kid suffers when it becomes apparent they are not.

What happens when the parents are really good but the child turns out bad?

Scioch

hondasam wrote: »

You could be all of these things and still be a crap parent.

True but if your lacking those things then your guaranteed to be a bad parent.

This would be better how?

Kids would be raised, educated and exposed to qualities and morals they wouldnt be if they were left in a bad environment with unfit parents. Giving them a much better start in life and increaisng the liklihood they will turn out decent law abiding contributers to society.

What happens when the parents are really good but the child turns out bad?

Then the child turns out bad, some kids just go bad. But he wont have gone bad because of neglect and abuse.

gabsdot40

I adopted my kids so I did have to get a licence in a way.It was a total nightmare having to prove to social workers that we would be good parents. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I just think it should be easier to remove children from parents who mistreat or neglect them and free them to be adopted by decent people.

PucaMama

LordSmeg wrote: »

You should have to prove your intelligent, caring and stable enough to raise a child.

really? so no children from those with a lower iq?

i dread the day that some snob in charge looks at my paycheck and tries to say no, your not having any babies. wont work either. my body my choice.

FairytaleGirl

Effectivley the practice of deciding who can and cannot pro-create is opening a HUGE Can of worms.

I agree completley that not just anyone should be able to have children. Drug addicts for one.

BUT Whos to say? What about parents who have slight learning diffuculties but would make amazing parents? Or if by no fault of your own you live below the poverty line? Money isnt EVERYTHING when raising a happy, clean, secure child.

I, as a lesbian can see both sides of the argument.

People are fundamentally against gays/lesbians raising children - Its so frowned upon if i wanted to have a child with my long term partner (One I wanted enough to go spend £1000's of pounds and undergo medical procedures and possibly spend years of my life trying to have) - yet a 15/16/17 year old girl can go get pregnant on a drunken one night stand and spend her days laying about on the dole and foisting her kid off on various relatives every weekend to go out drinking - never looking for work because shes a 'full time mammy' and the kids lucky if it has a dad in the picture.

Requiring a license just multiplies the scope for discrimination against those who dont fit the 'Parenting Norm'.

partyatmygaff

There's a reason why popular ideas like parenting licenses don't make sense. How exactly are you meant to judge if someone's a good enough parent without them actually having children of their own?

How exactly would people be tested to see if they should be given a parent licence?

Scioch

PucaMama wrote: »

really? so no children from those with a lower iq?

i dread the day that some snob in charge looks at my paycheck and tries to say no, your not having any babies. wont work either. my body my choice.

Not necessarily low IQ, just intelligent in relation to raising a kid. You can be thick as shít but the best parent in the world. If your not capable of understanding the basics of caring for a child though then no you shouldnt be allowed to raise a kid. Its not a play thing or someone property, its a living being and doesnt deserve a shítty life because some ignorant parent "wants" a kid.

hondasam

LordSmeg wrote: »

True but if your lacking those things then your guaranteed to be a bad parent.

Rubbish. You have no idea how good a parent you will be until you actually become one.
Being the best parent in the world does not guarantee you will have the best child.

Scioch

hondasam wrote: »

Rubbish. You have no idea how good a parent you will be until you actually become one.
Being the best parent in the world does not guarantee you will have the best child.

We aint talking about minding a goldfish ffs its a conscious human being. You cant and shouldbt be allowed to care for people young or old without proving your capable. Your not allowed to treat people's illness without proving your capable. Your not allowed to do a multitude of things if you dont first show you are capable. But you think its fine for someone to give it a go in relation to raising a child ? Trial and error, if its goes wrong what matter ya gave it a shot ? Seriously ?

And I never said anything about guaranteed to have a good child, all your doing is giving the child every chance to have a good life and grow into a good person. Your not doing that my saying "sorry kid, your mom and dad know best" to a a kid being raised by utter scum.

hondasam

LordSmeg wrote: »

We aint talking about minding a goldfish ffs its a conscious human being. You cant and shouldbt be allowed to care for people young or old without proving your capable. Your not allowed to treat people's illness without proving your capable. Your not allowed to do a multitude of things if you dont first show you are capable. But you think its fine for someone to give it a go in relation to raising a child ? Trial and error, if its goes wrong what matter ya gave it a shot ? Seriously ?

And I never said anything about guaranteed to have a good child, all your doing is giving the child every chance to have a good life and grow into a good person. Your not doing that my saying "sorry kid, your mom and dad know best" to a a kid being raised by utter scum.

How would you prove you are capable of looking after a child?
Who would test you on these required skills?
We will assume those who deem people capable will be perfect themselves but wait who will test them to see if they are perfect?
Having and raising children is not to be taken from a book, it's something you learn with experience.

Fromthetrees

Stupid thread is stupid.

Just to say, every child's public health nurse keeps an eye on the child on behalf of the government if you will. If she thinks the child is in danger she can go through certain processes to remove the child from the crap parents, just saying if that's the problem it technically has a solution already in place.

I really get the impression from reading on here that people think we live in a well run and efficient country.
Licenses? Really? We/the government/public health nurses/social services/HSE can't properly run the way things are now but people on here want to role out all sorts of weird and nonsensical social policies and child engineering programmes.

You can't find a public health nurse when you're looking for one yet we're going to be able to implement a screening process for the country.



I really hope this thread is just a joke.

Scioch

hondasam wrote: »

How would you prove you are capable of looking after a child?
Who would test you on these required skills?
We will assume those who deem people capable will be perfect themselves but wait who will test them to see if they are perfect?
Having and raising children is not to be taken from a book, it's something you learn with experience.

I'm not saying people have to be perfect parents now am I ? I'm saying they should show they are capable. So anyone who actually wants a kid will show this and educate themselves before they do so. Anyone who doesnt clearly hasnt the interest in their child to go to the bother of trying to research it before they have one.

And you seriously think people cannot learn anything about parenting from reading a book and educating themselves on raising kids ? Of course you can learn from books, and courses and taking the time out to look into it a bit rather than saying "fcuk it I'll wing it, see how it goes.". As I said this is another human life thats in your hands and if your not arsed making an effort then you should not be trusted with caring for and raising them.

Scioch

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I really hope this thread is just a joke.

Yeah your right, how dare people talk about improving the lives of children. The country is crap, lets do nothing and wait until it fixes itself. :rolleyes:

Odysseus

Having worked with some very serious cases, no a licence is no good. More services available to those who need them, that would be a start.

ejmaztec

Most potential parents wouldn't stand a chance of ever being allowed to have kids, because you can bet that a bunch of childless numpty social-workers from cloud cuckoo-land would be the ones doing the testing.

Fromthetrees

LordSmeg wrote: »

Yeah your right, how dare people talk about improving the lives of children. The country is crap, lets do nothing and wait until it fixes itself. :rolleyes:

Talk all you want about 'improving the lives of children', :rolleyes:.
The idea behind this thread is idiotic, unworkable and nonsense.

Scioch

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Talk all you want about 'improving the lives of children', :rolleyes:.
The idea behind this thread is idiotic, unworkable and nonsense.

The idea behind this thread is allowing kids to grow up in a good environment to give them every chance at turning out to be good people.

It may be unworkable but its not idiot nonsense. Kinda disturbing you think it is really.

FairytaleGirl

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Talk all you want about 'improving the lives of children', :rolleyes:.
The idea behind this thread is idiotic, unworkable and nonsense.

Tell that to the thousands of Children that have ended up in care/dead because of the right their scumbag parents had to 'Procreate'

And FYI taking a child from the family home is a LAST RESORT. A social worker has to have serious evidence, and of more than one incident before they can even think of doing that.

Madam_X

LordSmeg wrote: »

The idea behind this thread is allowing kids to grow up in a good environment to give them every chance at turning out to be good people.

It may be unworkable but its not idiot nonsense. Kinda disturbing you think it is really.

I would like all children to get a decent upbringing but this licence stuff is much too simpleminded tbh.

Scioch

Onixx wrote: »

I would like all children to get a decent upbringing but this licence stuff is much too simpleminded tbh.

It was just an idea floated to get a discussion going, nobody is drafting legislation as we speak or anything.

If we all want to try ensure children get a decent upbringing then you have to look at the fact that there is a vicious circle of kids growing up to be their parents and raising their kids to be the same.

You have to try break that circle and from what I see the current system seems to be wait until a kid is abused, if its bad enough re house them which may cause further damage to the child depending on age, if not allow them to be abused further.

How can you ensure anything in regards to the child if your waiting until they are abused before you do anything ? You need an obligation from the start to try and force parents into educating themselves and give these kids a good environment to grow up in.

hondasam

LordSmeg wrote: »

I'm not saying people have to be perfect parents now am I ? I'm saying they should show they are capable. So anyone who actually wants a kid will show this and educate themselves before they do so. Anyone who doesnt clearly hasnt the interest in their child to go to the bother of trying to research it before they have one.

I think most people research it, you suggest a sit down exam and only those who get a perfect score are deemed fit to be parents.

And you seriously think people cannot learn anything about parenting from reading a book and educating themselves on raising kids ? Of course you can learn from books, and courses and taking the time out to look into it a bit rather than saying "fcuk it I'll wing it, see how it goes.". As I said this is another human life thats in your hands and if your not arsed making an effort then you should not be trusted with caring for and raising them.

You can read all the books in the world nothing prepares you for the real thing.
Some people think they will be great parents until the baby arrives. It's not something you know you will be good at or something you can say you will be crap at until it happens.
Personally I would not like the idea of someone telling me if they think I would be a good or bad parent. I might start out a crap parent but with experience I could be a very good parent.

christmas2012

a license for a child is a stupid,stupid idea,it will be abused by the government they will turn it into a scam as quick as it is brought in,its a stealth tax,and what good is limiting population growth considering we need more people out there spending,and job creation.
countries with large populations attract big business.another thing what would these einstiens who say licensing is such a great idea,what would they propose if lets say a parent gives birth to a child without a license,public care perhaps,more money wasted?

Davidth88

Did no one see the pictures/news of the Chinese woman forced to have an abortion at 7 months , because she couldn't pay the fine for having a second child.

The Chinese gvmt actually had to apologise to her because of the international outcry, something that must have been very painful to them ( they take that sort of thing very hard ).

If you were to have licences for kids , that would be the inevitable outcome.

Perhaps , you would have to have to have your tubes tied or something and only allow them untied once you have passed an aptitude test .

partyatmygaff

LordSmeg wrote: »

Yeah your right, how dare people talk about improving the lives of children. The country is crap, lets do nothing and wait until it fixes itself. :rolleyes:

Nothing's wrong with the principle of improving the lives of children and no one is disagreeing with that.

What people are disagreeing with is the populist nonsense that is a "Parenting licence".

LordSmeg wrote: »

The idea behind this thread is allowing kids to grow up in a good environment to give them every chance at turning out to be good people.

Except the idea is fatally flawed and fails at the earliest hurdles if you try and envision a practical solution.

It may be unworkable but its not idiot nonsense. Kinda disturbing you think it is really.

Unfortunately, it is really just idiotic nonsense. It's a popular idea that people repeat every once in a while but the reason it's never implemented is because it's intrinsically flawed.

Scioch

hondasam wrote: »

I think most people research it, you suggest a sit down exam and only those who get a perfect score are deemed fit to be parents.

Yeah ? Where did I say that ? I never once mentioned the word perfect in what I expected of people. You have twice to ignore what I'm actually saying. What I'm talking about is mandatory courses for people who plan on having a child. Unless you show characteristics of being a truly unfit to be a parent you wouldnt be denied.

The main part of my view is taking kids away from people who make zero effort. If you cant attend a course on childcare how can you be trusted to care for and raise a child ?

You can read all the books in the world nothing prepares you for the real thing.
Some people think they will be great parents until the baby arrives. It's not something you know you will be good at or something you can say you will be crap at until it happens.
Personally I would not like the idea of someone telling me if they think I would be a good or bad parent. I might start out a crap parent but with experience I could be a very good parent.

It will go some way in preparing you, it will at the very least ensure you have an understanding of the situation and how to deal with it even if you dont get the practical experience until after the birth.

And not liking being told what to do is no real basis to justify doing something. If you take the time to understand what your getting into your already showing your making an effort. Its those who make zero effort who will more than likely produce children with the same attitude as themselves.

partyatmygaff

LordSmeg wrote: »

Yeah ? Where did I say that ? I never once mentioned the word perfect in what I expected of people. You have twice to ignore what I'm actually saying. What I'm talking about is mandatory courses for people who plan on having a child. Unless you show characteristics of being a truly unfit to be a parent you wouldnt be denied.

The main part of my view is taking kids away from people who make zero effort. If you cant attend a course on childcare how can you be trusted to care for and raise a child ?

We've survived and made huge strides over the past few millennia without any courses. For the overwhelming majority of people, i'd imagine it's instinctive.

Scioch

partyatmygaff wrote: »

We've survived and made huge strides over the past few millennia without any courses. For the overwhelming majority of people, i'd imagine it's instinctive.

Lots of things are instinctive. Just because the human species has survived and progress over the last few millennia is no reason to ignore the plight of neglected children and the impact that has on society.

We have made huge strides because we have sought improvements. No point in stopping now.

partyatmygaff

LordSmeg wrote: »

Lots of things are instinctive. Just because the human species has survived and progress over the last few millennia is no reason to ignore the plight of neglected children and the impact that has on society.

I'm not ignoring the plight of neglected children. I just think your solution is unworkable and if implemented would do more harm than good.

There's no way of accurately measuring how good of a parent someone will be with a written exam. It's simply impossible to tell how someone will parent their child until the child in question exists (Exists =/= Born).