Women enjoying a drink in the pub alone.

Scanlas The 2nd

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Things like nervous smiles/ laughter/ jittery body language/ speaking too fast/ checking for her reactions when you say something are a give away you need her to approve of you.

No that's a give away that he's lacking confidence. I agree with the not trying part though. Guys often say that they get more offers when they're in a realtionship because they're not trying so hard.

And what is a lack of confidence? A need for approval. When you fully accept yourself all those issues dramatically improve.

Eve_Dublin

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'd expect them to look at the bigger picture as well, it saves a lot of bother. This is what I'm saying - it doesn't matter if a woman is insanely beautiful, if she's an unpleasant person you either won't get near or if you do you'll be sorry you did.

Its not about controlling yourself prudishly, its about recognising what actually matters. Imagine some naughty fantasy, then compare it to a casual fling. Which gets you more excited? Think that's because of physical differences?


I made no reference to educational achievements.

+1000000000

Because a woman looks a certain way, doesn't mean she's going to be approachable or even nice. Last time I said this on here I was accused of being jealous and bitter so I want to make myself crystal clear this time. A very attractive woman could be one of the soundest people on the planet or she could be an absolute wench....like anyone!

No matter how much you wish she was the former because you'd like to get in her knickers and you fancy her, it might not be the case. If the woman seems unapproachable, then don't approach her and it won't end in tears. If a woman is laughing, having a good time and seems friendly and approachable from the outset, then it's worth a shot but if she's immediately stand offish, she doesn't want to talk to you. Keep your dignity intact, take the hint, make your accuses and go and chalk it down to experience.

It's very simple.

Eve_Dublin

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Many men think they're all these things and they really aren't.

If course but that's besides the point. Say Brad Pitt approaches the woman who only wants to read her book alone at the pub. Chances are her priorities change. If you are attractive enough excuses tend to disappear. I'd even contend most women would cheat in the right circumstances the man is hat attractive enough.

I agree with you up to the last line. Some women would but I doubt most would.

Daveysil15

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

And what is a lack of confidence? A need for approval. When you fully accept yourself all those issues dramatically improve.

Approval from whom? Women? A guy might not be looking for approval from anyone and still have low confidence. He's not always seeking aproval. What if a girl is trying to impress him and he's still nervous?

Doc Ruby

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I agree with you up to the last line. Some women would but I doubt most would.

I'd further say that if Brad Pitt was rude, insulting, and demeaning in his advances his prospects would be severely reduced, even being who he is. Its kind of a worthless example anyway since almost everyone isn't as rich, famous, fit, and charismatic as Brad Pitt.

Eve_Dublin

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'd further say that if Brad Pitt was rude, insulting, and demeaning in his advances his prospects would be severely reduced, even being who he is. Its kind of a worthless example anyway since almost everyone isn't as rich, famous, fit, and charismatic as Brad Pitt.

Exactly. Not too many Brads or men of his ilk wandering about the place...

sunflower27

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Exactly. Not too many Brads or men of his ilk wandering about the place...

Daveysil15

Doc Ruby wrote: »

almost everyone isn't as rich, famous, fit, and charismatic as Brad Pitt.

Don't be so sure about that. :cool: As a previous poster said, if a woman is approached by a man who she doesn't find attractive then he's a creep. If someone like Brad Pitt approaches her its acceptable and she'll put that book down.

Doc Ruby

Daveysil15 wrote: »

As a previous poster said, if a woman is approached by a man who she doesn't find attractive then he's a creep. If someone like Brad Pitt approaches her its acceptable and she'll put that book down.

Depends what he wants. Thats a fairly adversarial situation in any case, which again makes it a bad example. We aren't talking about strangers immersed in a book here.

Scanlas The 2nd

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

And what is a lack of confidence? A need for approval. When you fully accept yourself all those issues dramatically improve.

Approval from whom? Women? A guy might not be looking for approval from anyone and still have low confidence. He's not always seeking aproval. What if a girl is trying to impress him and he's still nervous?

Approval from the world that he is good enough. Low confidence is basically a condition where you feel anxiety which limits how you interact socially. That anxiety comes from looking externally for validation that you are good enough and not seeing the responses you need to feel good enough.

I've gone from painfully insecure to confident, the best way to get to being confident IMO is to realise you are good enough ( read/watch Eckhart Tolle stuff) and approach the scariest most uninviting women repeatedly, you hit a "zone" where you are completely carefree and couldn't care less if it goes well or not, you're too busy enjoying yourself dictating what happens. No feeling in the world like it, it's unfortunate most men will never know that feeling. ( although I've heard cocaine can give a comparable feeling)

Scanlas The 2nd

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I agree with you up to the last line. Some women would but I doubt most would.

I'd further say that if Brad Pitt was rude, insulting, and demeaning in his advances his prospects would be severely reduced, even being who he is. Its kind of a worthless example anyway since almost everyone isn't as rich, famous, fit, and charismatic as Brad Pitt.

It's a very worthy example. It's just one end of the scale. It highlights the fact that once a guy is attractive enough it doesn't matter if she is reading a book. Where attractive enough is is somewhere on the scale, different for each woman, but that point exists for every woman.

Eve_Dublin

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Approval from the world that he is good enough. Low confidence is basically a condition where you feel anxiety which limits how you interact socially. That anxiety comes from looking externally for validation that you are good enough and not seeing the responses you need to feel good enough.

I've gone from painfully insecure to confident, the best way to get to being confident IMO is to realise you are good enough ( read/watch Eckhart Tolle stuff) and approach the scariest most uninviting women repeatedly, you hit a "zone" where you are completely carefree and couldn't care less if it goes well or not, you're too busy enjoying yourself dictating what happens. No feeling in the world like it, it's unfortunate most men will never know that feeling. ( although I've heard cocaine can give a comparable feeling)

I don't like your PUA method of approaching women generally Scanlas but sometimes I agree with you and your last paragraph I have to agree with. When I was in Argentina, the men would go from one woman to the next in a club and get rejected repeatedly but did it knock their confidence? Not a bit! They were the most confident, self-assured bunch I've ever come across and I've seen Argie women be absolute bitches to Argie fellas but the fellas took it with a pinch of salt and didn't moan about the local chicas regardless of how they were treated and these guys got rejected a huge amount. They didn't score that particular lady but they got back on the horse and carried on till they got a connection with one of them. I admired them for that even if they were the biggest pain in the holes on occasion.

Doc Ruby

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

It's a very worthy example. It's just one end of the scale. It highlights the fact that once a guy is attractive enough it doesn't matter if she is reading a book. Where attractive enough is is somewhere on the scale, different for each woman, but that point exists for every woman.

Its a terrible example. Its like saying nobody should drive in case there's a big frost in one area of town and you're going fast enough to skid up a hill and run into a busload of orphans. Technically its possible but it means nothing to the question asked.

Having looked at the advice you're handing out liberally I can't imagine how talking to people could be a fun experience for you. I'd be more wound up than a prize fighter before a title with that checklist of do's and don'ts, am I speaking too fast, who's got the advantage now, what's the score, did I just exceed my blinking quota, I'm not looking for approval I'm not looking for approval I'm not looking for approval.

You'd want to be some sort of zen sexer to even get past the first word without collapsing in a nervous heap.

Seriously, relax and look for fun. Seek and ye shall find.

Daveysil15

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Depends what he wants. Thats a fairly adversarial situation in any case, which again makes it a bad example. We aren't talking about strangers immersed in a book here.

Well suppose if an ugly man approaches a woman and just wants to chat? Then a man approaches her who she finds very good looking and wants the same thing as the ugly man and asks the exact same questions and uses the same body language? She might tell the ugly guy to get lost, in which case she wouldn't have been rude to him because of his approach, but because he was unattractive. A bit like Simon Cowell on the X-Factor telling a contestant he's useless, rather than just saying, "No Thank you, you're not what I'm looking for."

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What's wrong with being chatted up? If you don't want to chat just say so.
I went out on my own a few months ago, had a girlfriend at the time. Two girls hit on me, I just didn't reciprocate and they stopped...?

Never understand why this is such a big deal for some people. How's anyone supposed to know if you're "up for being chatted up" before they've tried talking to you?
Seems guys in this country are damned if they do, damned if they don't: You get masses of girls (including Rihanna) who complain that Irish guys are too shy and never make the first move, and then you get this concept that being chatted up is automatically creepy and unwanted without even knowing...

How exactly is a guy meant to win in this situation?

I don't think many people are complaining about being approached. I don't mind someone saying hello or making eye contact or whatever. But when I make it clear that I'm not interested, by looking away/at my phone/being a bit distant (but never rude), that should be the end of it. If I were interested in having a conversation, I'd indicate that I was interested in having a conversation. It's not that difficult. Yet so many men seem to have issues with knowing how to read social cues and these are the ones you call you a slut or a whore or stuck up because you're 'ignoring' them.

Doc Ruby

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well suppose if an ugly man approaches a woman and just wants to chat? Then a man approaches her who she finds very good looking and wants the same thing as the ugly man and asks the exact same questions and uses the same body language? She might tell the ugly guy to get lost, in which case she wouldn't have been rude to him because of his approach, but because he was unattractive. A bit like Simon Cowell on the X-Factor telling a contestant he's useless, rather than just saying, "No Thank you, you're not what I'm looking for."

We can play whataboutery all day long and it will still be useless.

Scanlas The 2nd

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

It's a very worthy example. It's just one end of the scale. It highlights the fact that once a guy is attractive enough it doesn't matter if she is reading a book. Where attractive enough is is somewhere on the scale, different for each woman, but that point exists for every woman.

Its a terrible example. Its like saying nobody should drive in case there's a big frost in one area of town and you're going fast enough to skid up a hill and run into a busload of orphans. Technically its possible but it means nothing to the question asked.

Having looked at the advice you're handing out liberally I can't imagine how talking to people could be a fun experience for you. I'd be more wound up than a prize fighter before a title with that checklist of do's and don'ts, am I speaking too fast, who's got the advantage now, what's the score, did I just exceed my blinking quota, I'm not looking for approval I'm not looking for approval I'm not looking for approval.

You'd want to be some sort of zen sexer to even get past the first word without collapsing in a nervous heap.

Seriously, relax and look for fun. Seek and ye shall find.

Relax and have fun, that's basically what I've been saying. Clear all thought out of your head and amuse yourself. If you are worried about your body language you are being approval seeking. The goal is to get confident enough so the body language will reflect your inner calmness naturally.

Eve_Dublin

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well suppose if an ugly man approaches a woman and just wants to chat? Then a man approaches her who she finds very good looking and wants the same thing as the ugly man and asks the exact same questions and uses the same body language? She might tell the ugly guy to get lost, in which case she wouldn't have been rude to him because of his approach, but because he was unattractive. A bit like Simon Cowell on the X-Factor telling a contestant he's useless, rather than just saying, "No Thank you, you're not what I'm looking for."

What if one man came up to a woman dressed up as a pineapple and another man came carrying the head of a horse under his arm and it was a Monday and 2 o'clock and raining outside the the pineapple man had lunch BUT the horse-head man hadn't....would the price of milk be the same?

Giselle

Only women are harsh to men. Twice as harsh if they're Irish.

And women who say they want to be alone just really want to be with Brad Pitt.

Men never judge women harshly on looks or age or personality.

Have I got that right?

Miss Lockhart

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Well suppose if an ugly man approaches a woman and just wants to chat? Then a man approaches her who she finds very good looking and wants the same thing as the ugly man and asks the exact same questions and uses the same body language? She might tell the ugly guy to get lost, in which case she wouldn't have been rude to him because of his approach, but because he was unattractive. A bit like Simon Cowell on the X-Factor telling a contestant he's useless, rather than just saying, "No Thank you, you're not what I'm looking for."

If a woman tells an ugly man to "get lost" because he is ugly and she is not interested, but is then open to conversation with an attractive man because he is attractive and she fancies him - then she is being a bitch.

If a woman tells an ugly man politely that she would rather be alone because he is ugly and she is not interested, but is then open to conversation with an attractive man because he is attractive and she fancies him, then that is human nature.

If someone is not interested in casual conversation but is interested in chatting up and flirting then so be it - be they man or woman.

Daveysil15

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

What if one man came up to a woman dressed up as a pineapple and another man came carrying the head of a horse under his arm and it was a Monday and 2 o'clock and raining outside the the pineapple man had lunch BUT the horse-head man hadn't....would the price of milk be the same?

Yes I'd imagine so.

Doc Ruby

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Relax and have fun, that's basically what I've been saying. Clear all thought out of your head and amuse yourself. If you are worried about your body language you are being approval seeking. The goal is to get confident enough so the body language will reflect your inner calmness naturally.

That's really not coming across in your posts though. Most of what you've been saying, in this and other threads, has been like a technician with fifty chatup lines memorised, an aggressive and methodical approach to making a connection.

The Brad Pitt example is a good one, it means nothing to the discussion but you brought it up why, to justify something? Maybe you aren't expressing what you are trying to say but that's the impression I'm getting.

Fizzlesque

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. :cool: As a previous poster said, if a woman is approached by a man who she doesn't find attractive then he's a creep. If someone like Brad Pitt approaches her its acceptable and she'll put that book down.

If a man approached me, that I didn't find attractive, I wouldn't call him a creep. There are loads of men I don't fancy, but that doesn't make them creeps.

Regarding the book putting down possibility if I did find the man who approached me (as I sat enjoying my pint alone) attractive, it wouldn't be because all attractive/good looking men have the power to make me put my book down (that expression is taking on a nice little life of its own ) but because it's not every day someone you consider attractive turns up in your world and wants to talk to you so I wouldn't be closed minded and refuse to let new people into my life just because that wasn't what I was looking for in the first place.

Incidentally, it's worth mentioning, someone being what society/people generally consider good looking and finding someone attractive aren't necessarily the same thing. Some of the men I've found attractive haven't been conventionally good looking, but I've found something attractive about them.

Then again, I'm not the kind of woman that's being complained about on this thread; I'll talk to anyone, and if a man does approach me, I'm usually completely content to engage in a bit of chat and I don't presume he's coming on to me. Most men I meet have a bit of finesse about them, maybe I'm lucky, maybe I attract a certain kind of man, maybe it's because I'm the kind of person who people find easy to talk to. Or maybe, just maybe, as I mentioned a while back, it's because I choose my venues carefully and am comfortable being in a pub drinking a pint, doing the crossword by myself.

Speaking of crosswords, I do like it when someone who is good at doing the complex crossword starts talking to me and is able to get me past the usually pathetic single answer I've managed to get, even after spending a long long time getting that single answer. As Doc Ruby said, the mind is where the real attraction lies, and a man who's able to do the difficult crossword with me (with me, not for me, taking over has the opposite effect) is already off to a good start

stoneill

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Exactly. Not too many Brads or men of his ilk wandering about the place...

awww...

Madam_X

Giselle wrote: »

Only women are harsh to men. Twice as harsh if they're Irish.

And women who say they want to be alone just really want to be with Brad Pitt.

Men never judge women harshly on looks or age or personality.

Have I got that right?

Seemingly. I was warned there was a tiny few on this board with a really bewildering attitude towards women... didn't believe it would be this bad. :-/

Daveysil15

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. :cool: As a previous poster said, if a woman is approached by a man who she doesn't find attractive then he's a creep. If someone like Brad Pitt approaches her its acceptable and she'll put that book down.

That's not true, but even if it were, it's her prerogative. Don't you get that you're still implying that women have an obligation to talk to you? If a woman doesn't want to talk, she doesn't want to talk. Whether it's because you're ugly, because you're a weirdo, because she's just had some bad news, busy studying for an exam. What does it matter? Just accept that she's not interested and move on.

Giselle

Onixx wrote: »

Seemingly. I was warned there was a tiny few on this board with a really bewildering attitude towards women... didn't believe it would be this bad. :-/

This is baby stuff compared to some threads here I've read.:(

Scanlas The 2nd

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Relax and have fun, that's basically what I've been saying. Clear all thought out of your head and amuse yourself. If you are worried about your body language you are being approval seeking. The goal is to get confident enough so the body language will reflect your inner calmness naturally.

That's really not coming across in your posts though. Most of what you've been saying, in this and other threads, has been like a technician with fifty chatup lines memorised, an aggressive and methodical approach to making a connection.

The Brad Pitt example is a good one, it means nothing to the discussion but you brought it up why, to justify something? Maybe you aren't expressing what you are trying to say but that's the impression I'm getting.

Im all against memorising sh1t. After the event it can all be broken down technically like anything which I find really interesting.

I brought up the Brad Pitt example to highlight how women's valid excuses can suddenly not matter when the guy is attractive enough and just because she believes she doesn't want to be bothered it may not be the case if a guy she really likes presents himself.

py2006

It's all well and good saying get over it and move on to the next girl if rejected but reality is different. Normal decent guys can be quite upset not just by a rejection but the nature of a rejection.

Far too often we hear the "grow a pair" response to men's woes!

The kind if guy who doesn't care and moves from girl to girl are usually total tossers!

I remember an 18yr old me (aww) who worked up the courage to talk to a girl I really liked only for her to turn her nose! It basically destroyed me and ruined the night!

Giselle

py2006 wrote: »

I remember an 18yr old me (aww) who worked up the courage to talk to a girl I really liked only for her to turn her nose! It basically destroyed me and ruined the night!

Crushing as that was, you might do well to work on that for your own sake instead of expecting random girls to be more accepting of your approaches to spare your feelings.

They don't know you, and you don't know them. How you let their behaviour affect you is partly your responsibility.