The future of Irish

Aimsigh

So, given your choice, what would you like to see as the future of the Irish Language?

This is all about what you would like to see not what you think will happen, also there is no time limit it, you can answer for however far into the future you want.

Personally I would like to see a majority Irish speaking Ireland, I think it could happen, but a lot would have to change from the education system to how the language is promoted, given the right conditions I'd say it could be done in 150 years or so, in time for our great grand kids to enjoy.

Biggins

Here we go again ...happy as can be...

Naomi00

Oh yay, another one of these..

R.F.

Its a romantic thought.

But at the end of the day kids doing their leaving have to dedicate 1/7th of their time studing something they will never need

Aimsigh

Biggins wrote: »

Here we go again ...happy as can be...

Its OK Biggins, I give you permission not to take part if you really don't want to.;)

Scioch

Nil a shít agum.

PrincessLola

Aimsigh wrote: »

So, given your choice, what would you like to see as the future of the Irish Language?

This is all about what you would like to see not what you think will happen, also there is no time limit it, you can answer for however far into the future you want.

Personally I would like to see a majority Irish speaking Ireland, I think it could happen, but a lot would have to change from the education system to how the language is promoted, given the right conditions I'd say it could be done in 150 years or so, in time for our great grand kids to enjoy.

In order for that to happen, coercion would be required. Not good.

English is a dominant global language, people aren't going to start spontaneously speaking Irish unless you force them to in some manner.

And I am firmly against forcing people to do things they don't want to.

So I don't like where you are going with this little plan.

Fromthetrees

A dodo dick has a better chance of being alive in a 150 years. Would like to see it revived but can't see it happening ever.

andrew241983

Ba mhaith a fhoghlaim beag ag an am ach is breá a bheith líofa...

Learning a little at a time but would love to be fluent...

Naomi00

R.F. wrote: »

Its a romantic thought.

But at the end of the day kids doing their leaving have to dedicate 1/7th of their time studing something they will never need

I'm doing my LC too.

Only the things I 'will never need' are all the useless things I learnt for Chemistry, project maths, and the random Biology definitions we have to memorise. I love how people always say these are the important ones :pac:


I can see myself using Irish, French, Art and obviously English.

PickledLime

I wouldn't want to see it gone completely (although it is a dead language), but don't make it mandatory at secondary school.

As someone's already said, what a waste of time, time that would be better spent teaching the fundamentals of grammar or maths, you know, stuff that's actually useful in the real world.

akura

I dont see much of a future for it unfortunately

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In before Deise.

What do I think will happen? Nothing. It will soldier on, addicted to the life support system as it is, wasting the time of peopel who do not want to learn it and the resources of those who do, under the complete mistaken idea that it is in some way important to everyone born on this island.

im invisible

The future is bright, The future is bright orange

dlofnep

Doesn't matter what I want. All that matters is the reality. Irish will gain a bit of strength over the next decade or two, but it won't be the majority language in Ireland. The future of the Irish language is not in the Gaeltacht, that much is for sure.

PickledLime

Naomi00 wrote: »

I'm doing my LC too.

Only the things I 'will never need' are all the useless things I learnt for Chemistry, project maths, and the random Biology definitions we have to memorise. I love how people always say these are the important ones :pac:


I can see myself using Irish, French, Art and obviously English.

You clearly don't want a career in the sciences (which is grand, different strokes for different folks and all that), but try to embark on one without a good grounding in those subjects and you won't get very far.

Aimsigh

PrincessLola wrote: »

In order for that to happen, coercion would be required. Not good.

English is a dominant global language, people aren't going to start spontaneously speaking Irish unless you force them to in some manner.

And I am firmly against forcing people to do things they don't want to.

So I don't like where you are going with this little plan.

Your right, Coercion would be required, but not for individuals, government bodies and private companies on the other hand will need some persuasion, that is the experience elsewhere at any rate.

I believe people should be free to choose what language they speak and should not be forced to learn Irish. I could see Irish disappearing that way. I take pleasure in the fact that Ireland will never be a majority Irish language speaking country.

GaryIrv93

I'd rather it be removed as a compulsory subject in the near future anyway, and have it replaced with more relevant, IT related subjects. In my opinion there's no logic whatsoever to have it forced on students which the strong majority will never speak a word of it again. Compulsion just hasn't worked, and there's more important things than so-called 'national identity' that need to be focused on than trying to keep a minority language alive.

In my view, people who want to dedicate themselves to keep Irish alive should do so with their own time and money. Leave the rest of us alone!

Ficheall

R.F. wrote: »

But at the end of the day kids doing their leaving have to dedicate 1/7th of their time studing something they will never need

Ah, come on. I'm fairly sure I've used feck all of anything I studied in the leaving cert cycle. Maths and English and French, perhaps, and I speak Irish with some friends, but Biology, Physchem, and Applied Maths have yet to prove any way useful.

PrincessLola

Aimsigh wrote: »

Your right, Coercion would be required, but not for individuals, government bodies and private companies on the other hand will need some persuasion, that is the experience elsewhere at any rate.

You want to force people and private companies to speak Irish all the time?
How would you pull that off?
Are we just going to throw freedom out the window?

Seriously though, the Irish language supporters need to get better aquinted with reality.

Ficheall

PrincessLola wrote: »

Aimsigh wrote: »

, government bodies and private companies on the other hand will need some persuasion,

You want to force people and private companies to speak Irish all the time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dyuxRA2gis

Ficheall

Ficheall wrote: »

Ah, come on. I'm fairly sure I've used feck all of anything I studied in the leaving cert cycle. Maths and English and French, perhaps, and I speak Irish with some friends, but Biology, Physchem, and Applied Maths have yet to prove any way useful.

For YOU. Obviously those studying science related subjects would find Biology, Chemistry, etc. useful. I don't study science but I found Biology extremely useful for health, fitness, etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Aimsigh wrote: »

Your right, Coercion would be required, but not for individuals, government bodies and private companies on the other hand will need some persuasion, that is the experience elsewhere at any rate.

There's a slight contradiction here: coercion implies that you don't persuade, you just go in and force.

If you're going to go down the road of force, though, you might as well admit to ****ign freedom out the window.

byhookorbycrook

Irish is not a dead language. You don't understand the term if you believe this to be so. Gaelscoileanna have been the single best promotion of the language in the last 20 years .

Naomi00

PickledLime wrote: »

You clearly don't want a career in the sciences (which is grand, different strokes for different folks and all that), but try to embark on one without a good grounding in those subjects and you won't get very far.

The same can be said for everything though.

Naomi00

Domo230 wrote: »

You'll pry the english language from my cold dead west brit hands.

It a great language, it allows us to communicate with many countries in the world and to e competitive and makes us a more viable location for investment.

That's not what the thread's about.

Jester252

Would love to see nature run its course with Irish but that will never happen as long as people are forced to learn take a daily class in it from the age of 4-5 to 17-18 it

SusieBlue

I'd love for it to be revived and to be spoken regularly by more people but that probably won't happen.
Ideally, I'd love if all Irish and English were both used equally here but that's also wishful thinking.
I think the entire education system needs to be overhauled because young people seem to be frustrated with the syllabus and frankly I don't think any improvements will be made in the national level of fluency until the language seems more accessible to students.

poppyvally

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

I'd rather it be removed as a compulsory subject in the near future anyway, and have it replaced with more relevant

Yeah. like a european language or mandarin. Much more useful for the future

Monsieur Folie

I'd probably be much more willing to be enthusiastic about learning Irish if it wasn't such an exam focused subject. I plan on flushing it out as soon as I finish the LC.

If they taught it properly people might be more willing to interact with it, learn it properly, and use it occasionally.

Waste of time at the moment though..

DEFTLEFTHAND

I'd like to see it preserved and remained to be taught in schools. It won't ever be a dominant language in Ireland again, If anything it will probably further regress unfortunately.

gsxr1

There is a patronizing wanker at work who goes around speaking the few sentences he knows in Irish, knowing fine well no one understands him.

It is a common agreement between all 25 men that the lad in question is in fact A Dickhead.
This is mainly because of his insistence in speaking in Irish and making everyone say back to him "stop being an arse hole and tell me what you said", when all they want to do is get on with their work.

Make the horrible sound go away. It's worse sounding than German..

Bombay Allee

ich hoffe Irisch wird immer mehr gesprochen. ich gebe selber ganz viel múhe.

PrincessLola

Ficheall wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dyuxRA2gis

What are you trying to say??
You're gonna have to reply in words, not videos of stand-up comedians.

SusieBlue

I know most people think the language is pointless, but myself and my friends are fluent (went to a Gaelscoil) and we find it very handy.

Especially abroad on holidays and the likes, we're able to have full blown conversations and have no one understand. Particularly useful if we're trying to avoid people, we can ask each other to leave the club/bar without anyone knowing what we're saying

byhookorbycrook

I work in a Gaelscoil. We are now seeing the children of past pupils starting to filter in. This ,to me, is a measure of hope.

Bombay Allee

D'éirigh mé ar maidin, is chuaigh mé ag bla na Bó

senor incognito

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I know most people think the language is pointless, but myself and my friends are fluent (went to a Gaelscoil) and we find it very handy.

Especially abroad on holidays and the likes, we're able to have full blown conversations and have no one understand. Particularly useful if we're trying to avoid people, we can ask each other to leave the club/bar without anyone knowing what we're saying

So many folk I know, have used it for some variation of this: if language is a tool for communication, what does it say about irish that we use it to ensure we will not be understood?

Stained Class

Jesus Christ!

When will people learn!

Still look at the people we put into Govt over the years.

Us Irish have an unending capability to see the good from lost causes.

Alright for the lads going to Poland right now. At least they're paying for the experiance!

Gaelgoers, fook offfff. Yer're just parasites on the rest of us!:mad:

gammygils

Rahoo! Rahoo! Rahoooo! Ta an Hector ag labhairt Bearla anois san Breakfast Show - Breakfast with Hector

Agus Spanish freisin. Agus Polish

books4sale

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Especially abroad on holidays and the likes, we're able to have full blown conversations and have no one understand.

What makes you so paranoid that anyone would be interested in what you have to say?

Remember when I was a young lad at 10-12 years old going to England with the ould pair, the two of them would start breaking out the 'cupla focail' thinking they were the bees knees.

Two spanners was more like it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I know most people think the language is pointless, but myself and my friends are fluent (went to a Gaelscoil) and we find it very handy.

Especially abroad on holidays and the likes, we're able to have full blown conversations and have no one understand. Particularly useful if we're trying to avoid people, we can ask each other to leave the club/bar without anyone knowing what we're saying

The chances of no one understanding you are not as high as you might understand. I once heard a converstaion while in an ATM queue in Berlin.

Wibbs

senor incognito wrote: »

So many folk I know, have used it for some variation of this: if language is a tool for communication, what does it say about irish that we use it to ensure we will not be understood?

Yea the "tee hee, secret code" types. There are enough of them alright. Understandable as language is not just a communication tool. It's also a tribal/cultural marker(both organic and fake) and can be utilised in an exclusionary manner. You even see this among class language and accent divisions.

However there are also people out there with a genuine love for and fluency with the language who you'd never know about if you weren't a fellow Irish speaker, because they don't pull this kinda thing. Why? Because it's rude and exclusionary.

Nailz

I was never any good at Irish in school, I have no real interest in the language purely for the fact it's useless in day to day life as everyone who speaks Irish here speaks English anyway, and the whole usefulness of it being pinned on how you may need it for your Leaving Cert and other such things is nonsense, it's only made out to be useful by the people who decide it's need, when it shouldn't be like that, hopefully that will change eventually for the sake of those still in the 2nd level school system.

Although, having said all that, I wouldn't ever wish for it to be completely gone, in fact I would like to see it grow, seeing more and more people speak it fluently; really just for reasons of cultural identity as that is important to a lot of people. The way they should go about such a thing is the opposite of what they are doing in the education system where Irish starts off at second level mostly mandatory, piling all sorts of kids with no interest in being there into the same classes as those who do, disrupting the flow of learning for those wanting to learn. I was in Irish classes like this myself, I was bad at Irish anyway, but you could see how the class bogged down by a good few messers and idiots.

Those who really wanted t be there probably would've gotten a more desirable learning experience had they not have been there and had a class with a common interest. Therefore, I obviously believe that the subject should be 100% optional across the board — the same way as Geography and Business is — to hopefully achieve such a result that has students wanting to learn Irish learning Irish with no distractions. Of course, how it's taught should also be reformed, but I'm not sure how to go about it.

Aimsigh

PrincessLola wrote: »

You want to force people and private companies to speak Irish all the time?
How would you pull that off?
Are we just going to throw freedom out the window?

Seriously though, the Irish language supporters need to get better aquinted with reality.

I don't want to force people to speak Irish at all, what do you think I ment when I specifically excluded individuals, ie people, from any kind of coercion

As for private companies, there would be no need to for them to speak Irish all the time, just be capable of dealing with their customers through Irish when they want to, the general rule that the purchaser chooses the language of transaction seems to be lost on Irish companies.

number10a

dlofnep wrote: »

Doesn't matter what I want. All that matters is the reality. Irish will gain a bit of strength over the next decade or two, but it won't be the majority language in Ireland. The future of the Irish language is not in the Gaeltacht, that much is for sure.

I have never come across a group of people that give less of a shìt about Irish than those in the Gaeltacht. When I was doing my stint in the Kerry Gaeltacht for primary teacher training, we met not one single local (apart from the teachers) who could speak Irish. We tried very hard to speak it while we were there, but nothing. One guy in my group even got shouted at in the local one night by a barmaid who just said "FFS, would ye all stop speaking Irish to me!!" The only places that I have ever heard Irish being naturally spoken is in the cities, namely Dublin, Cork and Galway. And Dublin far outstrips anywhere else from my own experience.

The government really should abandon designating places as Gaeltachts and save a bit of money and gain a (tiny) bit of credibility in the process. They're pointless. They suck in money. And for what??

The Gaelscoileanna are the way forward, and in my opinion all primary schools should gradually move to this system. It should only take eight years (with a couple of years of planning and persuading the unions beforehand). Start with the next intake of Junior Infants in every school and keep gradually moving on until they reach sixth class. This gives the linguistically weaker teachers a few years to brush up on Irish if they're given the English speaking higher classes at the beginning of the phasing in process. Though in my opinion, if a teacher says that their Irish is not good enough to work in a Gaelscoil, then they really should not be teaching at all.

Aimsigh wrote: »

As for private companies, there would be no need to for them to speak Irish all the time, just be capable of dealing with their customers through Irish when they want to, the general rule that the purchaser chooses the language of transaction seems to be lost on Irish companies.

This works in places like Catalonia and Quebec. Companies are required to be able to deal with customers in both official languages, depending on the customer's choice. In Catalonia, you just begin your transaction in a shop with "Hola, buenos días" or "Hola, bon dia" and it goes from there. The shop assistant is required to be able to deal with you in either Spanish or Catalan.

As well as this, in Quebec, a company has to be able to deal with its staff internally in the worker's choice of French or English.

While there is obviously no "Sure no one speaks it" attitude to French in Quebec, we can look to Catalonia for a lot of inspiration if we want to revive Irish. Up until the 1970s, it was illegal to speak Catalan, and now huge proportion of the population can speak the language and virtually everyone can understand. The Catalan government gives free classes to migrants from other parts of Spain, and to immigrants too.

Wibbs

number10a wrote: »

Up until the 1970s, it was illegal to speak Catalan

Not quite. It was illegal to publish literature and other media in Catalan under Franco, but people still spoke it to each other and it kept a larger speaking percentage of population than Irish. Basque was more oppressed by comparison. In Franco's early days even naming your kid with a Basque name was illegal. While I agree with much of what you suggest by way of reform on one point I'd suggest something, Catalan while a different language is significantly closer to Castellano compared to Irish and English, so less effort is required to achieve fluency. The Basque example might be a better one(though even Irish and English are closer than Basque and any other language)?

What I find interesting about such languages elsewhere is how they did survive such cultural oppressions and stigma, whereas Irish in the last century has continued to contract even with large scale promotion of the language. Those languages(inc former Soviet Bloc ones) bounced back very rapidly after the cultural oppression and legal barriers were lifted. We did not see that in the Irish model. We seem to be contrary as usual.

PS

Though in my opinion, if a teacher says that their Irish is not good enough to work in a Gaelscoil, then they really should not be teaching at all.

Way to make it so we reduce the pool of good teachers in other subjects. Subjects we're seriously lacking in some areas. When a report shows 1 in 4 male secondary school students are functionally illiterate in any language you have to ask questions. When you see the lack of training in areas of IT and the smart economy you really have to ask questions.

Aimsigh

number10a wrote: »

The government really should abandon designating places as Gaeltachts and save a bit of money and gain a (tiny) bit of credibility in the process. They're pointless. They suck in money. And for what??

I would disagree to an extent, there are some places still in the Gaeltacht that are an embarrasment, Dingle town springs to mind, but there are other parts of the Gaeltacht where Irish is still the dominant community language, areas identified as class A Gaeltachts, I think it would be a grave mistake not to support these areas, If the language can not survive in the areas where it is still the primary language, there is no hope of reviving it elsewhere.

The Gaelscoileanna are the way forward, and in my opinion all primary schools should gradually move to this system.

Again, I agree that Gaelscoileanna, and more importantly Gaelchiolaistí are the future of the language, but I dont think it is possible or desirable for all schools to be made Gaelscoileanna, the reality is that the difference in the standard of Irish required to teach Irish in a normal primary school, and to teach in a Gaelscoil is huge.
The pool of teachers capable of teaching in a Gaelscoil is way to small, it is better to concentrate them in a smaller % of schools, and allow the pool of teachers capable of teaching in Gaelscoils to increase over time with the expansion of the sector.
Gaelscoil education represents around 7% of primary education currently, that will increase over the next few decades, probably to around 15% in 20 years time, by which time Gaelcholaiste(Second Level) education will hopefully have increased to around 8-10%. This will represent a strong minority of young people for whom Irish is a major part of their lives, that will iniveatably lead to pressure on government and the private sector to make services available in Irish.

Aimsigh

Wibbs wrote: »

PS Way to make it so we reduce the pool of good teachers in other subjects. Subjects we're seriously lacking in some areas. When a report shows 1 in 4 male secondary school students are functionally illiterate in any language you have to ask questions. When you see the lack of training in areas of IT and the smart economy you really have to ask questions.

Kinda ignoring the fact that the national council on curriculum has published a report in which they found that literacy skills are transferable from one language to another, ie teaching Irish will help improve English Language Literacy.

I agree with your general point, if we make all primary schools Gaelscoils then the quality of teacher will decrease because you have a much smaller pool to choose from, but literacy is not a good argument to use.

twinQuins

Aimsigh wrote: »

[...] that will iniveatably lead to pressure on government and the private sector to make services available in Irish.

Because they'll be incapable of communicating in English, of course.