The future of Irish

NegativeCreep

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

NegativeCreep wrote: »

It's not technically dead thats why I said 'for intents and purposes.' It mite aswell be dead because fcuk all people speak it.

Music and art is important because literally everyone listens to or appreciates it. Sport has a huge following also. And it's not like these things have become unpopular and people are trying to bring them back, they've stood the test of time because people like them.

So, what other languages might as well be dead to you? Welsh? What about Basque and Catalan? Or is your issue just with Irish or all minority languages?

Obviously my only gripe is with Irish. I'm not from wales or the Basque region so I don't really care about what language they use. We have literally no need for Irish. If you're fluent well that's good for you but that doesn't mean everyone should be fluent.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

NegativeCreep wrote: »

We have literally no need for Irish. If you're fluent well that's good for you but that doesn't mean everyone should be fluent.

You have no need for Irish. You're not speaking for everyone.

If all funding was removed and Irish was completley abolished from schools, would you still have a gripe with people wanting to speak it?

I'm genuinely interested to know exactly why some people here have such deep-rooted issues with the language if it isn't because of State support.

I think it's quite interesting from a sociological viewpoint and would make for a good thesis.

NegativeCreep

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

NegativeCreep wrote: »

We have literally no need for Irish. If you're fluent well that's good for you but that doesn't mean everyone should be fluent.

You have no need for Irish. You're not speaking for everyone.

If all funding was removed and Irish was completley abolished from schools, would you still have a gripe with people wanting to speak it?

I'm genuinely interested to know exactly why some people here have such deep-rooted issues with the language if it isn't because of State support.

I think it's quite interesting from a sociological viewpoint and would make for a good thesis.

I've already said I don't have a problem with people wanting to speak it at all. Why would I? People can do what they want

The government shouldn't be spending money that we don't have on the promotion of Irish. Like I said, if people want to learn it, they should go about it themselves.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

NegativeCreep wrote: »

The government shouldn't be spending money that we don't have on the promotion of Irish. .

If you remove all State funding for Irish you also strip away language rights for Irish speakers. This means that some Irish citizens will have less rights than others, which is unconstitutional.

Is that ok with you?

NegativeCreep

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

NegativeCreep wrote: »

The government shouldn't be spending money that we don't have on the promotion of Irish. .

If you remove all State funding for Irish you also strip away language rights for Irish speakers. This means that some Irish citizens will have less rights than others, which is unconstitutional.

Is that ok with you?

What right will you lose? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't lose to much sleep over whatever trivial 'right' you may lose.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

NegativeCreep wrote: »

What right will you lose? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't lose to much sleep over whatever trivial 'right' you may lose.

The right to deal with the State and avail of public services such as education in my native language, just as you do in English.

You do realise that these language rights are afforded to all Irish citizens as per the Irish Constitution?

Would like to abolish these rights? Would your opinion change if you were born a native Irish speaker?

NegativeCreep

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

NegativeCreep wrote: »

What right will you lose? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't lose to much sleep over whatever trivial 'right' you may lose.

The right to deal with the State and avail of public services such as education in my native language, just as you do in English.

You do realise that these language rights are afforded to all Irish citizens as per the Irish Constitution?

Would like to abolish these rights? Would your opinion change if you were born a native Irish speaker?

Well we could probably wait a generation and then do it. Won't be an issue in 20 years time or less. My opinion wouldn't change if I was a native Irish speaker because I'd also have English. I'd say there's very few, if any people in Ireland who are fluent in Irish only. I'd say if they didnt have the right to avail of public services in Irish they'd cope just fine.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Well we could probably wait a generation and then do it. .

So, wait for twenty years and then cut all funding for Irish? Are you just making this up as you go along?

Bottom line is that you see absolutely no value in the language and you don't think that Irish speakers should have any rights.. well, give them another twenty years.

opti0nal

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

What's your opinion on native Irish speakers?

That's a broad question inviting a generalised response, can you be more specific?

I don't personally know any native Irish speakers as I live in a part of Ireland where the majority are native English speakers and this has been the case for a very long time.

Wibbs

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

Can you provide any evidence that the language is dead? Do you know the definition of a dead langauge? I don't think so.

Of course the language isn't dead and unlikely to die anytime soon, however it has severely contracted in usage over the last century even with all the state pressure brought to bear on it. We simply chose as a majority not to speak it.

Why is the Irish language important to some people? Why is art, music and sport important to some people?

Indeed, but as a minority interest why should the majority be artificially forced to think it important and pay for it?

xDramaxQueenx wrote: »

Its important to me because it means Im not british.

Good fcuk. Well if that's how you self define, good luck with that.

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

So, what other languages might as well be dead to you? Welsh? What about Basque and Catalan? Or is your issue just with Irish or all minority languages?

Catalan is barely a "minority language". Millions speak it and millions more understand it. You can walk around in the Catalan regions of Spain and hear it on a minute by minute basis. You can read and produce books, university degrees, technical drawings, rock songs blah blah in it. It's the language of the region. Compare and contrast with Irish. One could quite easily live a life in Ireland and not hear Irish outside the classroom and media. It hasn't been a language of higher learning, engineering, philosophy etc in centuries.

Basque? A little closer an example, but again some differences. Again the Basque people wanted to preserve it and speak all through the centuries of oppression against the language in both France and Spain. Walk around Bilbao for a weekend and you'll hear more Basque spoken than you'll hear Irish in a decade.

Welsh? Probably the closest comparison of all, but again it seems those of the Welsh who speak it didn't need much pressure to use it. They were able to rejuvenate it's use in decades, whereas nigh on a century of rejuvenation attempts with Irish has seen its use contract on a decade by decade basis.

Carlos Orange

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

The right to deal with the State and avail of public services such as education in my native language, just as you do in English.

You do realise that these language rights are afforded to all Irish citizens as per the Irish Constitution?

Would like to abolish these rights? Would your opinion change if you were born a native Irish speaker?

Do citizens really have a constitutional right to deal with the state and avail of public services in their native language? I imagine in this day and age that covers dozens of languages.

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, but as a minority interest why should the majority be artificially forced to think it important and pay for it?

Is this the latest crap now? People who feel the language is important have actually been forced to think that way, how did you yourself avoid this psychological manipulation by the evil cabal bent on brainwashing the population of Ireland?

Cú Giobach

psinno wrote: »

Do citizens really have a constitutional right to deal with the state and avail of public services in their native language? I imagine in this day and age that covers dozens of languages.

They have the constitutional right to deal with the state in either of the two official languages of the state. Not exactly something unheard of around the world.

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

They have the constitutional right to deal with the state in either of the two official languages of the state. Not exactly something unheard of around the world.

Hmm, where exactly in the constitution does it say people have the right to collect the dole in Irish? I must have missed that part.

Nippledragon

It would be a huge shame to lose it. It should really be our first language imo, with English as our second. I know some people go on about it's useless in business etc.. but thats just a very lazy mentality as far as I'm concerned. With English as a second language I don't think it would necessarily drive business away...

The way it is taught in schools seriously needs to be looked at to make it more appealing, interesting and usable. I was lucky enough to have had some fantastic Irish teachers in school. Some people I know had sh1te teachers, and that hasn't really helped the Irish language in the long term...

Cú Giobach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hmm, where exactly in the constitution does it say people have the right to collect the dole in Irish? I must have missed that part.

Because Irish is officially the first language of the state a citizen is entitled to require that it be used.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/LanguageRights.pdf

Justice Ó hAnnluain, The State (Mac Fhearraigh) v. Mac Gamhna (1983) T.É.T.S 29

It will be noted that Irish is accorded a higher level of recognition in the Constitution
of Ireland than it had in the first Constitution, since it is referred to for the first time
as 'the first official language'. At the same time greater scope is given to the
Oireachtas to give priority to one language over the other in accordance with the law
insofar as relates to official matters in any part of the country.
Until the Oireachtas exercises the function conferred on it by the provisions of the
Constitution, it must always be assumed that Irish is the first official language, and
that the citizen is entitled to require that it be used when the State has official matters
to administer."

oranje

Wibbs wrote: »

One could quite easily live a life in Ireland and not hear Irish outside the classroom and media. It hasn't been a language of higher learning, engineering, philosophy etc in centuries.

I grew up in an English speaking town in the west of Ireland but amazingly enough I have heard ordinary people speaking Irish there the last couple of times I was visiting. I guess that I see the situation far more from an outside perspective now but there definitely seems to be more Irish being spoken in Ireland now than in the 1980s.
The fact that Irish is not used in philosophy or engineering is not really a point to invalidate it as a language. French and Latin were used for centuries in England in various domains (legal, ecclesiastical, medical, educational) until English was deemed fit for purpose. If a Dutch academic publishes in English it doesn't mean that the Dutch language is redundant.

Wibbs wrote: »

Basque? A little closer an example, but again some differences. Again the Basque people wanted to preserve it and speak all through the centuries of oppression against the language in both France and Spain. Walk around Bilbao for a weekend and you'll hear more Basque spoken than you'll hear Irish in a decade.

I am reading Paddy Woodsworth's "The Basque Country: A Cultural History" at the moment which gives a great insight into the history of the region. Basque does compare very well to Irish in that the language is so different to Spanish (as Irish is to English). There has also been massive in-migration from the rest of Spain so that many urban areas are resolutely Spanish speaking (similar to Dublin, Belfast with English). When I was in Bilbao I only heard Spanish spoken which surprised me, in San Sebastian there were more Basque speakers around me but they were still very much a minority. I believe that there are many rural areas though where villages are almost 100% Basque speaking.
Where the attitude seems to differ compared to Irish is that the Basque administration is fully committed to the language. Of course you could use the argument that "they can all speak Spanish" to justify phasing it out as a language but thankfully some people there (as in Ireland) don't just look at things in terms of their economic usefulness.

Wibbs wrote: »

Welsh? Probably the closest comparison of all, but again it seems those of the Welsh who speak it didn't need much pressure to use it. They were able to rejuvenate it's use in decades, whereas nigh on a century of rejuvenation attempts with Irish has seen its use contract on a decade by decade basis.

Historically there was one quite significant difference with Welsh. The churches in Wales actively supported the use of Welsh whereas the Catholic church in Ireland was neutral if not hostile towards Irish. The first bible in Irish was a Church of Ireland one, there was no Catholic one until much later.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/language_bible.shtml
In the modern context I have to say that Welsh people (including English speakers) often seem much more enthusiastic about their language. I have often been around Irish people, all of whom can speak Irish, who seem ashamed to use it. I am not sure where this pro-English attitude comes from. I am an English speaker but I speak a lot of other languages and I really don't see any need to just speak English, what a dreadful world it would be if we were confined to just one language.

Iwasfrozen

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Because Irish is officially the first language of the state a citizen is entitled to require that it be used.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/LanguageRights.pdf

And what does that ruling cover? Surely we don't have to duplicate every service offered to the public? I would hope not anyway but common sense seemed to go out the window with the easter rising...

oranje wrote: »

what a dreadful world it would be if we were confined to just one language.

Just on this last piece, I disagree totally. Imagine a world where communication and the exchange of ideas were unhindered by language barriers. That would be a wonderful world. Especially if we weren't divided by cultural issues either. I think that in this poll there are more people who want irish gone complacently then there are who want the majority speaking irish speaks volumes about how doomed your cause is.

Wibbs

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Is this the latest crap now? People who feel the language is important have actually been forced to think that way,

No my point was that a mechanism is in place to tell us how important the language is, yet the vast majority can't speak it and chose not to, so clearly don't think it important enough beyond lip service..

how did you yourself avoid this psychological manipulation by the evil cabal bent on brainwashing the population of Ireland?

By sleeping in Irish class? Still the cultural "brainwashing" is there. Only a tiny minority have actual fluency in the language, yet a majority claim that it's important to them. A bit schizo.

oranje wrote:

The fact that Irish is not used in philosophy or engineering is not really a point to invalidate it as a language.

It kinda is if we're claiming it as a national language. Not being a language of higher learning for centuries does diminish it.

If a Dutch academic publishes in English it doesn't mean that the Dutch language is redundant.

No but when an Irish academic only publishes as Gaelige when the subject is itself Irish it again diminishes the language.

When I was in Bilbao I only heard Spanish spoken which surprised me, in San Sebastian there were more Basque speakers around me but they were still very much a minority. I believe that there are many rural areas though where villages are almost 100% Basque speaking.

Really? The times I've been in that neck of the woods I heard Basque in Bilboa. Funny enough waaaay more in the evenings/nightime. A kinda Dracula language

I have often been around Irish people, all of whom can speak Irish, who seem ashamed to use it. I am not sure where this pro-English attitude comes from.

I say it comes from us. We as a nation may tend to blame perfidious Albion, but they're long gone and the upswing in the use of the language that you might have expected when they left never seemed to happen. It's odd. Ditto with the Irish diaspora going all the way back when compared to other diasporas, we left the language behind. EG Many Italian Americans kept Italian, Jews kept some Yiddish or incorporated into Ameircan English, but for some reason we didn't to nearly the same degree. Like I said odd.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Do you not think there should be any funding for the Irish langauge, Wibbs? To hell with the Gaeiltacht and expect them to speak Englsh?

Why should we bother funding Comhaltas if not all people like trad music?

4zn76tysfajdxp

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN, I hate your username.

poeticseraphim

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

So, wait for twenty years and then cut all funding for Irish? Are you just making this up as you go along?

Bottom line is that you see absolutely no value in the language and you don't think that Irish speakers should have any rights.. well, give them another twenty years.

They are also English speakers and have rights as English speakers.

They are well able to

There are no monolingual Irish speakers.

It should be acknowledged that English is the majority language and give it first official language status.

To put Irish on the same level is anti-democratic...WE ANGLOPHONES are the majority. Our language should be given first official status.

Only if someone had genuine problems with English...which i think is not possible in modern Ireland.

The issue is really it is middle class people who are perfectly economically safe wanting huge funds when a huge vulnerable socio-economic disaster is looming over this country. I think some people have their head in the sand.

One in every homeless person is under fourteen.

The minority have to accept the bigger needs of the majority. Thats democracy.

If individuals genuinle are not proficient in English then they should be given translation but the amount of subsidies given at a time when people are suffering is unpatriotic.

You epect people to care about your passions when you don't care about their basic needs.

What about the rights of people to shelter food etc? These are real crisis that are happening now.

When we can afford Irish fine...until then I fully support efforts to revive the language in the public sector.

Subsidies are FAR in excess of what gaelgoirs need to have access to legal documents etc and you know it.

If it was stripped down to just that it would be such a releif of burden on the 2013 budget.

Have you seen the 2013 draft budget by the way? It is brutal.


I am a well off person in comparison to most ..i do not expect to divert funding away from others who are really being pushed to the edge in economic basic needs....THATS PATRIOTISM.

A private sector revival i support fully.

Go for it. Infact it may be more effective...wealthy gaelgoirs should foot the bill if they really love the language .

A private led revolution so youtr fellow citizens can have more basic needs met...THAT IS PATRIOTISM.

The language would be more successful if the state was not involved in the revival.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Lilyana Sharp Papergirl wrote: »

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN, I hate your username.

What's your opinion on the Irish language?

oranje

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Just on this last piece, I disagree totally. Imagine a world where communication and the exchange of ideas were unhindered by language barriers. That would be a wonderful world. Especially if we weren't divided by cultural issues either. I think that in this poll there are more people who want irish gone complacently then there are who want the majority speaking irish speaks volumes about how doomed your cause is.

Well, it's a hypothetical situation but even in the English speaking world the 'exchange' of ideas is often one way traffic. In film for most of the last century Hollywood had a cast iron grip on film distribution ensuring that the American market was essentially locked to foreign films (even British ones). In book publishing the market was dominated by American and British publishers so that Australian, Irish, indian, Nigerian etc. writers wrote for a market filtered through an Anglo-American prism.
If you look at book translations an interesting fact I learned recently was that almost 50 percent of all [book] translations in the world are made from English into various languages, but only six percent of all [book] translations are made into English. That indicates how resistant English speakers are to material produced in other languages.
I agree with you that the situation would change somewhat if all of the world had one language but I think that the very fact that there is (say) an Icelandic language now explains why there is a desire to use it to produce literature.

I don't have any 'doomed cause' myself. I am happy that I grew up in Ireland and at least had the chance to learn Irish as a second language. I am interested in other languages and cultures in part because I was lucky enough to have been exposed to a seond language from such a young age.
People have every right to stick to English if they want to but they should at least respect the rights of Irish speakers to want to use the other national language where they please (and ideally with access to schooling through Irish).

poeticseraphim

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

Do you not think there should be any funding for the Irish langauge, Wibbs? To hell with the Gaeiltacht and expect them to speak Englsh?

Why should we bother funding Comhaltas if not all people like trad music?

Why would they have to speak English ??? Continue to speak it without funding if they are really apssionate.

The arts needs to cut funding at the momment .....sad but necessary....again have you seen the 2023 budget.

It is not just arts in folk music ...we need to be realistic for the next years.

If you are saying that without funding these people would not be motivated to speak Irish or that community is existing only because of state money that is a stark admission..

There are poor people in English speaking communities who could only dream of being suh a priority....don't you care about them?

You need to get a privatly funded movment going the state is possibly holding you back...get wealthy people passionate about the language to back it.

Start business societies for Gaelgoirs.....

You need to change your thinking if you want to revive it.

Iwasfrozen

oranje wrote: »

Well, it's a hypothetical situation but even in the English speaking world the 'exchange' of ideas is often one way traffic. In film for most of the last century Hollywood had a cast iron grip on film distribution ensuring that the American market was essentially locked to foreign films (even British ones). In book publishing the market was dominated by American and British publishers so that Australian, Irish, indian, Nigerian etc. writers wrote for a market filtered through an Anglo-American prism.
If you look at book translations an interesting fact I learned recently was that almost 50 percent of all [book] translations in the world are made from English into various languages, but only six percent of all [book] translations are made into English. That indicates how resistant English speakers are to material produced in other languages.
I agree with you that the situation would change somewhat if all of the world had one language but I think that the very fact that there is (say) an Icelandic language now explains why there is a desire to use it to produce literature.

I don't have any 'doomed cause' myself. I am happy that I grew up in Ireland and at least had the chance to learn Irish as a second language. I am interested in other languages and cultures in part because I was lucky enough to have been exposed to a seond language from such a young age.
People have every right to stick to English if they want to but they should at least respect the rights of Irish speakers to want to use the other national language where they please (and ideally with access to schooling through Irish).

If we all spoke one language (and i don't even care what language that is) then the situation of American dominance you describe wouldn't exist. But anyway I digress. The important thing is that monolingual english speakers, who are by far the majority should not finance the duplication for a group of irish speakers who speak english anyway. A language is a tool of communication not a hobby.

4zn76tysfajdxp

TOIRDHEALBHACH TADHG O CAOINDEALBHAIN wrote: »

What's your opinion on the Irish language?

It won't die out in my lifetime, anyway. I'd rather not see it die out but I suppose if people don't want to learn it who am I or anyone to force them?

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Why would they have to speak English ??? Continue to speak it without funding if they are really apssionate.

The arts needs to cut funding at the momment .....sad but necessary....again have you seen the 2023 budget.

It is not just arts in folk music ...we need to be realistic for the next years.

If you are saying that without funding these people would not be motivated to speak Irish or that community is existing only because of state money that is a stark admission..

There are poor people in English speaking communities who could only dream of being suh a priority....don't you care about them?

You need to get a privatly funded movment going the state is possibly holding you back...get wealthy people passionate about the language to back it.

Start business societies for Gaelgoirs.....

You need to change your thinking if you want to revive it.

So phase out the Irish language then?

KeithM89_old

Theres no need for 2 threads on the same topic, stick to the other one.