Wealth of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland?

Seanchai

I'm almost certain that in the past year I read a report that the Irish branch of the Vatican state's Roman Catholic Church sent millions back to that sovereign foreign state in the preceding year. A Google search hasn't produced anything on this precise aspect of its finances so far. Anybody remember the article?

However, a search did turn up this article from Colm Keena in The Irish Times on 6 June 2012: Ageing orders have land and property worth billions of euro

Keena's article, while informative, raises more questions than answers. The secrecy of the Roman Church in Ireland regarding its wealth - except when it's pulling a béal bocht appeal for funds, as it currently is doing in Dublin - is incredible. More importantly, this secrecy is encouraged by the Irish state. More precisely still - and this is extraordinary - because the Roman Church and its branches here are legally regarded as "charities": "The 2009 Charities Act has sections which will require charities to provide financial information to a new Charities Regulatory Authority, which will in turn make the information available to the public. However, the relevant sections of the Act have not been commenced and Minister for Justice and Equality Alan Shatter has said establishment of the new authority is being delayed for budgetary reasons." (Source)

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In other words, it seems that much of the reason why we don't know the wealth of that Church is because the Irish state, which funds the schools and hospitals which the Vatican state owns here by hundreds of millions each year, does not demand openness and transparency about its wealth in exchange for that money and the massive tax exemptions that super rich organisation gets for its "charitable" status under Irish law. Wtf. This bankrupt state is bankrolling what is arguably the richest secret society in the world and the same Roman Church has no obligation to declare its wealth in this state. Some two decades after the abuse scandals became public knowledge the Irish state is still subsidising the Vatican state's massive multi-billion euro financial interests in Ireland. What an utterly incompetent shower of civil service and political fúcktards and shítehawks are still running the show in this state in 2012.


PS: And let's not forget that it was Irish people who funded all these now Roman Catholic owned schools and hospitals in the first place. The modern state of the Irish people is now expected to buy them off that foreign state in Ireland. We had the Land Acts in the late 19th century to get rid of our British political overlords. Now, we're ultimately going to have the School Acts and the Hospital Acts to get rid of our Roman religious overlords. What a spineless, defeated, docile people we Irish are, with genuinely representative governments.

Pushtrak

Isn't the whole point when discussing the roman catholic church and its wealth that (most of the) the wealth goes to the vatican?

Seanchai

Pushtrak wrote: »

Isn't the whole point when discussing the roman catholic church and its wealth that (most of the) the wealth goes to the vatican?

I would have hoped that most of it goes towards the charitable work which it does with, for instance, homeless people. The fact, however, that the Church is so secretive about its wealth would indicate it's hiding a hell of a lot more than I would have thought. If it were proud of where its money is going, it would surely not hesitate in being open about it.


Also, are its stock market investments ethical? Some years ago Ciarán Cuffe of the Green Party got in hot water for not having ethical investments. Does anybody ensure the RCC in Ireland is not investing its enormous wealth in dodgy firms or countries (other than the Vatican and its incredibly dubious bank)?

68Murph68

I can't understand why anyone would give money to the Church.

Basically anyone who does is providing monetary support for sex abusers.

All the "retired" priests convicted of child sex abuse still received a living allowance/wage from the church.

Seaneh

Pushtrak wrote: »

Isn't the whole point when discussing the roman catholic church and its wealth that (most of the) the wealth goes to the vatican?

None of the money from local collections goes to Rome, where in the name of **** did you pull that one out of?
It's not a corporation ffs, it's not like a centralised bank account where they all pool their offerings.

Local parishes exist independent of Rome and are supported by the local community or any comercial activities they may have (like making beer in the case of Belgian and Dutch Trappist monks). Any money they make goes to the upkeep of the church/abbey/lands and after than is used for charitable works in the local community.

mikemac1

Two collections every week, one for the parish and one for the charity which will change during the year

Of course there are rich and poor parishes, small and large, well attended or barely attended.

So the diocese will pool the money and divide it out. Fairest way

There can of course be special collections just for that parish and that stays there.


The organization in Ireland funds itself and every diocese is expected to fund itself.

Or fails to fund itself, Dublin is running short of money, was reported a few months back
Is rural Ireland going to have to support Dublin? People usually give out about it being the other way around

Rome has very little to do with any of the money in Ireland

As for the land, a lot of that was donated by locals. It's not something you can just pass an act and seize.

Lapin

68Murph68 wrote: »

All the "retired" priests convicted of child sex abuse still received a living allowance/wage from the church.

In Prison ?

Joshua J

The opulance of the Vatican is completely against the teachings of Jesus. Pretty much says it all tbh.

mathepac

What a vile outburst in the OP. Long on hatred and self-ritgeouness, short on research, ignorant of the actual operation of schools and hospitals (private, public) and actual facts.

I can get worked-up at times in threads but IMHO this is pure hatred. It is redolent of some of the atheist threads; with nothing of their own to offer, they just pour hatred on organised religions, with the notable exception of Islam from my observations.

BTW I am a lapsed Catholic.

Seanchai

Seaneh wrote: »

None of the money from local collections goes to Rome, where in the name of **** did you pull that one out of?

This is not quite true. For starters, "Peter's Pence" is still collected in local collections across Ireland and goes to Rome. Here's information from the 2012 local collections for the diocese of Cork and Ross: 'Peter's Pence: The Peter's Pence collection is sent to Rome. It is used by the pope to support special charitable projects in developing countries as well as defraying expenses of the work of the Church.' Irish figures are not available to the public.

According to The Irish Times on 4 July 2011: 'While the Holy See ended three years of losses, returning a €9.85 million profit, worldwide donations from the faithful, traditionally known as “Peter’s Pence”, were down by almost $15 million (€10.3 million) at $67.7 million.' (Vatican in profit but donations fall)

Seanchai

mathepac wrote: »

What a vile outburst in the OP. Long on hatred and sel-ritgeouness, short on research, ignorant of the actual operation of schools and hospitals (private, public) and actual facts.

The "vile outburst" would seem to be your own. Now, if you have specific objections, perhaps you could contribute something more substantial to the thread by addressing them. Thank you.

padd b1975

Seanchai wrote: »

The "vile outburst" would seem to be your own. Now, if you have specific objections, perhaps you could contribute something more substantial to the thread by addressing them. Thank you.

The irony ^^^^^^^

Seanchai

padd b1975 wrote: »

The irony ^^^^^^^

OK, so you know of the word 'irony'. Well done. Now, perhaps you could go away and learn its meaning. Good lad.

squod

What are they going to do with that cash when the euro fails?

padd b1975

squod wrote: »

What are they going to do with that cash when the euro fails?

Convert it to Lira.

Biggins

Joshua J wrote: »

The opulance of the Vatican is completely against the teachings of Jesus. Pretty much says it all tbh.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5739/saysitall.jpg

Doc Ruby

Seanchai wrote: »

Also, are its stock market investments ethical?

Fairly sure they have large holdings in some serious arms manufacturers.

Seaneh wrote: »

None of the money from local collections goes to Rome, where in the name of **** did you pull that one out of?
It's not a corporation ffs, it's not like a centralised bank account where they all pool their offerings.

Local parishes exist independent of Rome and are supported by the local community or any comercial activities they may have (like making beer in the case of Belgian and Dutch Trappist monks). Any money they make goes to the upkeep of the church/abbey/lands and after than is used for charitable works in the local community.

How do you know?

Gotta love the catholic church, when it comes to money its all claims of independent communities and whatnot, but if priests speak up about issues like celibacy suddenly it transforms into an uber-efficient police state with a whip stretching round the equator.

Who are ye kidding lads.

mcmoustache

mathepac wrote: »

I can get worked-up at times in threads but IMHO this is pure hatred. It is redolent of some of the atheist threads; with nothing of their own to offer, they just pour hatred on organised religions, with the notable exception of Islam from my observations.

You need to work on your observations. Plenty of the atheists on here dislike Islam. Personally, I think it's backward, barbaric and retarded. I'm not the only one to think so nor am I the only one to post my feelings on the matter.

Check out the atheist/agnostic forum. You'll find a few Islam-bashing threads there as well as other threads featuring the hilarious dead-one - a muslim conservative. Here's a few to get you started:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056646025

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056651103

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055898112

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056671161


Personally, I think your comment is the same rehashed one that's made by Christians with a persecution complex. The idea behind it is that atheists take pops at christianity more than they do islam because christians are less likely to blow themselves up or carry out reprisals. The implication is that atheists are cowards. While there may be some cowardly atheists, I don't think it reflects the attitude of most atheists. I think it has more to do with the fact that this is a self-confessed catholic country and islam's effect on it is quite limited.

In fact, going by the demographics of the country, I would expect catholics to get the most bashing, protestants the second most and muslims the third most. Although muslims make up only 0.8% of the population, they get far more bashing than that.

Now that I think about it, your point was a load of pants. Smelly pants, crusty on the inside.

Run_to_da_hills

The Vatican or the Pope which is one of the wealthiest private institutes on Earth has absolutely nothing got to do with God.

Christ was born in a stable and got around on the back of a donkey, far cry from the countless billions in global assets that this corrupt rotten to the core man made institute has accumulated down through the centuries through fear mongering and from robbing the elderly through indulgences.

The Reformers rejected the Pope, and they rejected his priests and they rejected the mediatorship of Mary, the saints, and the angels, the statues and graven images etc.

The reformers proclaimed with one voice Christ the only savior, Christ alone the great high priest, Christ alone our mediator between God and Man, Christ alone the head of the Church, Christ alone the Judge of the whole earth, Christ alone who offered that one perfect complete sacrifice for sin for ever Christ only and only Christ. Collosians 3 vs 11.

Duggys Housemate

Thanks, good thread. Turns out most of the money stays in Ireland.

mickdw

How much would a typical mass going Irish family hand over to the church in a year I wonder. If you take the weekly collection, the special collections, masses, mass cards that soe people buy, Id say its substantial.

padd b1975

mickdw wrote: »

How much would a typical mass going Irish family hand over to the church in a year I wonder. If you take the weekly collection, the special collections, masses, mass cards that soe people buy, Id say its substantial.

About three fiddy.:cool:

face1990

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Thanks, good thread. Turns out most of the money stays in Ireland.

But there's still the issue of the church not having to declare any of its income.

Even people are who aren't "against" the church would have to accept that it would be better if the church made its finances transparent. If you're giving them money, you want to know what it's being used for.

And we know from experience that the church has a tendency to cover-up its mistakes. Considering the sheer amount of crimes the church hid in the past, its not a bad idea to keep them accountable in future.

mathepac

mcmoustache wrote: »

... Now that I think about it, your point was a load of pants. Smelly pants, crusty on the inside.

I think the intellectual robustness of your argument speaks volumes.

Just to repeat my point which you have not challenged :

mathepac wrote: »

... redolent of some of the atheist threads; with nothing of their own to offer, they just pour hatred on organised religions, ...

housetypeb

[QUOTE=Run_to_da_hills;79257257.......

Christ was born in a stable and got around on the back of a donkey.[/QUOTE]

It just goes to show what a lousy carpenter Joseph was that he couldn't build a cart for his cheating woman and so called son.

Ghost Buster

mathepac wrote: »

I think the intellectual robustness of your argument speaks volumes.

Just to repeat my point which you have not challenged :

Clever tactic and i hope it works for you!
A little selective editing where you omit the well constructed argument which preceeded mcmoustaches ending comment so as to make it appear that he did not address your point.
Lets just hope that no body follows the links back and finds you out.