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The NKVD in Eastern Europe
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17-06-2012 8:25pm#1This post has been deleted.1
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NKVD wasn't like Waffen SS. It "worked" mostly in the background.
There was a lot of work for them in Poland. From 1945 till 1954 there was a NKVD prison in Lublin Castle. In those years about 35,000 Polish people passed through it and 333 lost their lives. From 1945 Poland was (let's say) independent but Soviet secret police was very busy "helping" Polish communists.
Lublin Castle it's only one example.0 -
Much as been written and discussed by the atrocities carried out by the Waffen SS and various axis armies,however little is relatively discussed of the NKVD and its role to some of the worst massacres in the 20th century.
Some would be familar with the "Katyn" massacre but others may not be familar with other various crimes by the NKVD in Ukraine,such as the mass executions in Lvov(Lviv) Ukraine
Gestapo would be a better comparison.0 -
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I didnt want to draw a comparison with the SS solely per say,more so of alot of atrocities committed by this group.
Its a difficult task so. They were one of the main instruments used by Stalin in his purges wiping out many people based on his whims. In WWII they killed deserters. They also had control of the Gulags in the period of history when they were at their most prominent and this role included the sentencing right to send people to them. There are so many atrocities comitted by the NKVD that is difficult to know where to start.0 -
Wheatcroft's The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings may be of interest. Although anyone expecting to stack up the bodies so as to reveal "some of the worst massacres in the 20th century" will be disappointed. Particularly in a discussion that explicitly raises a SS comparison0
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I read one account (possibly Middlemore) that stated that the first public building reopened in Stalingrad after it's liberation was the NKVD office. Russian soldiers are said to have feared them above all else.
regards
Stovepipe0 -
Much as been written and discussed by the atrocities carried out by the Waffen SS and various axis armies,however little is relatively discussed of the NKVD and its role to some of the worst massacres in the 20th century.
Some would be familar with the "Katyn" massacre but others may not be familar with other various crimes by the NKVD in Ukraine,such as the mass executions in Lvov(Lviv) Ukraine
You can't compare the SS and the NKVD. The nazis murdered 6 million Poles during World War 2. The Soviets didn't do anything like that. In fact it the opposite is true as the red army liberated Poland from the nazis and thereby saving the Polish people from what would have been gradual elimination.
This obsession with Katyn and other Soviet war crimes is driven by right wing nationalist Poles for ideological reasons. Right wing Polish nationalists have even criminalised left wing symbols like the hammer and sickle and red star. In Poland you can be arrested for wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. Poland has become a very catholic conservative and anti-left country in the last 20 years. The right wing in Poland are trying to push the narrative that the Soviets were worse than the nazis (which is complete rubbish).
Remember no side emerged from WW2 with clean hands. All sides committed war crimes.0 -
I didnt want to draw a comparison with the SS solely per say,more so of alot of atrocities committed by this group.
nor sure if the SS can be blamed for everything. A lot of the atrocities were actually committed by local auxillaries and the German Police. neither were ever really prosecuted.
in the Baltic States the Jews feared the Germans, while everyone else feared the soviets. after the soviets 'liberated' these states in 1944 and resumed the deportations and executions of 1941 the Lithuanians fought a brave but futile war against their 'liberators'. their plight was ignored by the western powers.
it seems somewhat farcical that atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen should be put under the spotlight while the actions of the allies, i.e the Russians, should be glossed over.
i have just come from a KGB museum and found out how thousand of innocents were deported to Siberia.0 -
You can't compare the SS and the NKVD. The nazis murdered 6 million Poles during World War 2. The Soviets didn't do anything like that. In fact it the opposite is true as the red army liberated Poland from the nazis and thereby saving the Polish people from what would have been gradual elimination.
This obsession with Katyn and other Soviet war crimes is driven by right wing nationalist Poles for ideological reasons. Right wing Polish nationalists have even criminalised left wing symbols like the hammer and sickle and red star. In Poland you can be arrested for wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt. Poland has become a very catholic conservative and anti-left country in the last 20 years. The right wing in Poland are trying to push the narrative that the Soviets were worse than the nazis (which is complete rubbish).
Remember no side emerged from WW2 with clean hands. All sides committed war crimes.
the Russians 'liberated' Poland so they could enslave it for forty years and try and make a proud people Russian.what was world war two all about? why did the allies ignore the russian invasion of poland?
communist regalia is akin to the swastika in Germany and should be forbidden.
there is somehow the notion out there that marx and Lenin et al are cool while hitler is evil.0 -
nor sure if the SS can be blamed for everything. A lot of the atrocities were actually committed by local auxillaries and the German Police. neither were ever really prosecuted.
in the Baltic States the Jews feared the Germans, while everyone else feared the soviets.
it seems somewhat farcical that atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen should be put under the spotlight while the actions of the allies, i.e the Russians, should be glossed over.
i have just come from a KGB museum and found out how thousand of innocents were deported to Siberia.
That reads like a defense of nazism. "Sure they were all just as bad".0 -
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The two questions are linked because only the most naive would believe that France and Britain actually went to war to save Poland* and fought for 'democracy' or 'freedom'. Why did the British Empire - which at this time ruled appox. 25% of the Earth's land and would spend the next few decades fighting liberation struggles across Africa - not object to the Soviets taking Poland? Hmmm... that's a puzzler, I thought Britain was the friend of small nations :rolleyes:what was world war two all about? why did the allies ignore the russian invasion of poland?
At its basest level, WWII was 'about' defeating the German challenge to the Anglo-French hegemony. No more and no less. Poland was simply the trigger for this. After the war Churchill was happy to disown the Atlantic Charter and sit down with Stalin in dividing up Europe. This was not so much lying down with the Devil as doing what British politicians had always done
That we treat these politicians as, well, politicians should not give licence to dismiss all parties as equally damned. Nothing the British did (including the Bengal Famine or the mass internment in Kenya) or the Soviets did (despite the hysterical commentary, there was never any Soviet Auschwitz or Hunger Plan) can hold a candle to the crimes of the Nazi regime. The latter were, by every possible standard, worse than those of their victors. You talk of 'forty years occupation' or "thousand of innocents were deported to Siberia" when the Nazis killed millions in Poland alone
*The Anglo-French war plans were based on the assumption that Poland would fall... but provide them with enough time to rearm fully
This is a strawman that often gets trotted out by Nazi apologists. Out of curiosity, who exactly is "glossing over" Soviet war crimes? As far as I'm aware there has been a massive amount of research, particularly over the past two decades, into Soviet mass violence, both during and outside the war years. The figures, and the major episodes, are fairly well established by now and have largely entered the popular conciousness. No one would argue today that the Soviets were faultless - even the proverbial 'man on the street' would be at least vaguely aware of the NKVD, Berlin rapes, Katyn, purges, GULAG, etc, etcit seems somewhat farcical that atrocities committed by the Einsatzgruppen should be put under the spotlight while the actions of the allies, i.e the Russians, should be glossed over.
So who is ignoring these crimes to the point that you think that 'turning the spotlight on' the Einsatzgruppen is "farcical"?0 -
That reads like a defense of nazism. "Sure they were all just as bad".
how is this a defence of Nazism? popular culture had fed us the image that the entire SS were involved in mass killings. they were scapegoated after the war. many of the camps had only a handful of Germans running them. the rest were Ukrainian auxillaries. The German police who took part in the massacres went back to their regular jobs in 1945/46.
I think there has been too much of a focus on the holocaust and too little on the soviet crimes. I wold argue that your average Irish teenager knows a lot about the Nazi crimes but little about soviet ones.
For the Poles both Nazis and Communists were equally evil. In the Baltic States the soviets were however far more destructive. they tried to erase entire cultures and imprisoned and tortured anyone, and their families, who disagreed.
its something that Irish teenagers with communist logos on t-shirts should consider.0 -
how is this a defence of Nazism? popular culture had fed us the image that the entire SS were involved in mass killings. they were scapegoated after the war. many of the camps had only a handful of Germans running them. the rest were Ukrainian auxillaries. The German police who took part in the massacres went back to their regular jobs in 1945/46.
I think there has been too much of a focus on the holocaust and too little on the soviet crimes. I wold argue that your average Irish teenager knows a lot about the Nazi crimes but little about soviet ones.
For the Poles both Nazis and Communists were equally evil. In the Baltic States the soviets were however far more destructive. they tried to erase entire cultures and imprisoned and tortured anyone, and their families, who disagreed.
its something that Irish teenagers with communist logos on t-shirts should consider.
Idiotic post. There is an obsession with highlighting Soviet war crimes amongst western right wing academics. Many deliberately exaggerate them for ideological reasons. Any mainstream bookshop will be jammed full of anti-communist propaganda books in the "history" section.
As for the nazis and the USSR being just as bad to the Poles perhaps you should look at the figures. The nazis murdered 6 million Poles in WW2. How many did the soviets kill 1945-1989? The nazis tried to exterminate the Polish people. If it were not for the Red Army the Polish people would not exist today. 800,000 Soviet troops died liberating Poland. In Poland's communist days the population grew significantly and there was big improvements in housing, education and health services. To say that was the same as the nazis is sheer stupidity. Poland today is ruled by extreme catholic conservatives and bigots who have introduced much anti-communist legislation and re-written the history books. In Poland today you can be arrested today for wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt and left wing parties are outlawed. Neo-nazism is hugely on the rise amongst young males in Poland today. Polish schools teach anti-Russian bile to children as if it were fact. Just because you know some uneducated young Pole who said the Soviets and the nazis are the same does not make it fact. The irony is his grandparents would have all been murdered by the nazis if it were not for the Soviets.
Around 15 million Soviet citizens were murdered from 1941-1944. They were primarily executed by the SS. The average SS man murdered several civilians during the war.0 -
Idiotic post. There is an obsession with highlighting Soviet war crimes amongst western right wing academics. Many deliberately exaggerate them for ideological reasons. Any mainstream bookshop will be jammed full of anti-communist propaganda books in the "history" section.
As for the nazis and the USSR being just as bad to the Poles perhaps you should look at the figures. The nazis murdered 6 million Poles in WW2. How many did the soviets kill 1945-1989? The nazis tried to exterminate the Polish people. If it were not for the Red Army the Polish people would not exist today. 800,000 Soviet troops died liberating Poland. In Poland's communist days the population grew significantly and there was big improvements in housing, education and health services. To say that was the same as the nazis is sheer stupidity. Poland today is ruled by extreme catholic conservatives and bigots who have introduced much anti-communist legislation and re-written the history books. In Poland today you can be arrested today for wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt and left wing parties are outlawed. Neo-nazism is hugely on the rise amongst young males in Poland today. Polish schools teach anti-Russian bile to children as if it were fact. Just because you know some uneducated young Pole who said the Soviets and the nazis are the same does not make it fact. The irony is his grandparents would have all been murdered by the nazis if it were not for the Soviets.
Around 15 million Soviet citizens were murdered from 1941-1944. They were primarily executed by the SS. The average SS man murdered several civilians during the war.
a more civil tone would be appreciated. when you learn basic manners we can parley.0 -
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Another strawman. Nobody here has argued that the level of organisation in the Soviet murders alone somehow excuses them or makes them acceptable. We can have that discussion regarding the qualitative differences between Nazi and Soviet atrocities if you want but you'll have to do more than put up a disingenuous counter to an argument that no one has madeBlaasForRafa wrote: »You sound like an apologist for Stalinism. "Oh well he killed a lot but wasn't quite as organised as the Nazis so thats not as bad"
And I say disingenuous for a reason. People are not 'apologising' for Stalin, they are saying that the Soviets were not as bad as the Nazis because they were not as bad. Yet in your post you substitute "wasn't quite as organised" for the whole range of reasons, qualitative and quantitative, that underpins that position. All to build a strawman
To put this in perspective, simply suggesting that Soviet crimes were not as great as Nazi crimes apparently makes one a Stalinist apologist. (This is despite the fact that if the Soviets were no worse than the Nazis then it's inconceivable that Poland would have survived four decades of occupation.) If I suggest that British crimes were not as great as Nazi crimes am I therefore an apologist for empire?
While academic history has reinforced the image of the SS at all levels being a deeply racist institution that was intimately involved in war crimes. The idea that there was a kernel of 'bad' SS men or formations who exclusively ran the organisation's genocidal campaigns is fantasy. To quote from Weale's The SS: A New History:Fuinseog wrote:popular culture had fed us the image that the entire SS were involved in mass killings
"Occasionally, [in the context of war crimes] distinctions are drawn between the combat formations of the Waffen SS and other parts of the organisation... However, this is completely spurious"
Weale does on to make the point that it was not that the Waffen SS' (countless) war crimes were exaggerated but that those of the Wehrmacht, which was similarly up to its metaphorical elbows in civilian blood and genocidal programmes, were downplayed in the post-war years
None of which has any relevance to Soviet crimes. You will not find an equivalent Soviet organisation (including the NKVD) that committed as many atrocities or was as responsible for as many deaths as the SS. Demanding that the two be given equal billing implies that they were equally as guilty. That is simply wrong
But I've yet to see anyone argue that in this thread or to suggest that the crimes, and they were unquestionably legion, of the USSR equals or surpasses those of Nazi Germany. Which is understandable given that such a position, even when reliant on Cold War numbers, is unsustainable. Instead we have whining about how 'popular culture' demonises the SS (shock) while 'glossing over' Soviet crimes
(Which brings me back to my above post: who is ignoring these crimes to the point that you think that 'turning the spotlight on' the Einsatzgruppen is "farcical"?)0 -
Another strawman. Nobody here has argued that the level of organisation in the Soviet murders alone somehow excuses them or makes them acceptable. We can have that discussion regarding the qualitative differences between Nazi and Soviet atrocities if you want but you'll have to do more than put up a disingenuous counter to an argument that no one has made
And I say disingenuous for a reason. People are not 'apologising' for Stalin, they are saying that the Soviets were not as bad as the Nazis because they were not as bad. Yet in your post you substitute "wasn't quite as organised" for the whole range of reasons, qualitative and quantitative, that underpins that position. All to build a strawman
To put this in perspective, simply suggesting that Soviet crimes were not as great as Nazi crimes apparently makes one a Stalinist apologist. (This is despite the fact that if the Soviets were no worse than the Nazis then it's inconceivable that Poland would have survived four decades of occupation.) If I suggest that British crimes were not as great as Nazi crimes am I therefore an apologist for empire?
While academic history has reinforced the image of the SS at all levels being a deeply racist institution that was intimately involved in war crimes. The idea that there was a kernel of 'bad' SS men or formations who exclusively ran the organisation's genocidal campaigns is fantasy. To quote from Weale's The SS: A New History:
"Occasionally, [in the context of war crimes] distinctions are drawn between the combat formations of the Waffen SS and other parts of the organisation... However, this is completely spurious"
Weale does on to make the point that it was not that the Waffen SS' (countless) war crimes were exaggerated but that those of the Wehrmacht, which was similarly up to its metaphorical elbows in civilian blood and genocidal programmes, were downplayed in the post-war years
None of which has any relevance to Soviet crimes. You will not find an equivalent Soviet organisation (including the NKVD) that committed as many atrocities or was as responsible for as many deaths as the SS. Demanding that the two be given equal billing implies that they were equally as guilty. That is simply wrong
But I've yet to see anyone argue that in this thread or to suggest that the crimes, and they were unquestionably legion, of the USSR equals or surpasses those of Nazi Germany. Which is understandable given that such a position, even when reliant on Cold War numbers, is unsustainable. Instead we have whining about how 'popular culture' demonises the SS (shock) while 'glossing over' Soviet crimes
(Which brings me back to my above post: who is ignoring these crimes to the point that you think that 'turning the spotlight on' the Einsatzgruppen is "farcical"?)
Mr Strawman,(name calling and labeling other posters appears to en vogue)
I pointed out that for people in the Baltic States Hitler was better than Stalin, unless you happened to be Jewish.
I wonder how racist the soviets were? They appear to have considered themselves something of a master race and basically tried to make everyone Russian and destroy indigenous cultures.
Usually to get sent to a German concentration camp you had to do something, yet the soviets did not need a reason. they actually kidnapped Austrian and German civilians after the war and sent them off to the mines.
Stalin killed far more innocent civilians than Hitler and over a much longer period.
wiesenthal maintained that only 2% of the SS were involved in war crimes.0 -
Mr Strawman,(name calling and labeling other posters appears to en vogue)
I pointed out that for people in the Baltic States Hitler was better than Stalin, unless you happened to be Jewish.
I wonder how racist the soviets were? They appear to have considered themselves something of a master race and basically tried to make everyone Russian and destroy indigenous cultures.
Usually to get sent to a German concentration camp you had to do something, yet the soviets did not need a reason. they actually kidnapped Austrian and German civilians after the war and sent them off to the mines.
Stalin killed far more innocent civilians than Hitler and over a much longer period.
wiesenthal maintained that only 2% of the SS were involved in war crimes.
Nonsensical post. The Soviets considered themselves a master race? What race is that? Stalin wasn't even Russian.
And there is absolutely no evidence for any of your claims on this thread.0 -
Frankly I should call you 'Mr Let's Avoid Any Sort of Discussion'. Really, I'm not sure just what standard of politeness you expect when you refuse to engage in other posters and simply regurgitate nonsense. No sources and no common sense. You make grand claims without even attempting to substantiate them and have an argument position based almost entirely on 'whataboutism' and fantasy. Try addressing that rather than getting miffed that people aren't treating you with enough respectMr Strawman,(name calling and labeling other posters appears to en vogue)
I shouldn't do this but I will:
Please tell me that you are aware of Generalplan Ost, the deportations and other war crimes? That the latter were on a smaller scale in the Baltics, as opposed to the likes of Poland, does not excuse themI pointed out that for people in the Baltic States Hitler was better than Stalin, unless you happened to be Jewish
But then I love your logic that aside from the hundreds of thousands of Jews killed the Nazis were better than the Soviets. You know, if it wasn't for the dictatorship and the genocide and the militarisation and the wars of aggression and the rabid nationalise and the contempt for democracy... well, that Hitler guy wasn't all that bad :rolleyes:
Did the 'Asiatic hordes' (of which Great Russians comprised roughly 50% of the Soviet population) headed by a Georgian see themselves as a "master race"? No. Now you can stop wonderingI wonder how racist the soviets were? They appear to have considered themselves something of a master race and basically tried to make everyone Russian and destroy indigenous cultures
The pity is that there is a genuine discussion to be had - outside of this thread of course - on Soviet conceptions of man, national identities within the USSR and the role that Great Russians in Soviet politics... but that's completely beyond the level of nuance and debate so far displayed in this thread
This is mad. In the first place there's the completely erroneous nature of this paragraph. "You had to do something" to be imprisoned by the Nazis? What? Are you suggesting that being Jewish or Polish or Roma or Russian or disabled or whatever was a concious choice? Or are you suggesting that people were not sent to concentration camps or starved to death because of their ethnicity?Usually to get sent to a German concentration camp you had to do something, yet the soviets did not need a reason. they actually kidnapped Austrian and German civilians after the war and sent them off to the mines.
(Incidentally, I'd like a source for that Soviet "kidnapping" claim. Is it possible that you're discussing the deportation of Nazi POWs to the USSR?)
Secondly we have the implicit apology for the Nazis. Their murders were somehow more justified because the victims had "done something". Like be a trade unionist or Red Army soldier. Here it's you who is using BlaasForRafa's defence: the Nazis were actually better because they were more organised and, according to you, didn't simply lift people off the streets
Again, logic takes a leave of absence. Doesn't it strike you that if Hitler killed a similar number of people in a much shorter period of time then that makes his regime more lethal? No?Stalin killed far more innocent civilians than Hitler and over a much longer period.
Regardless, your numbers are entirely off. The latest estimates as to the total number that died under Stalinism are approx 8-9 million; 6-7 million of whom died during the famine of the early 1930s (which was not man-made). Even if we take that top figure then the Nazi regime, in a shorter period, killed significantly more civilians than the Stalinists - at least 8 million deliberate killings, without including Soviet civilians who died under occupation
Perversely, the idea that you can stand up here and even suggest such a thing is the result of the hysteric and politically tainted Cold War histories that assigned fantastic totals of 20+ million deaths to Stalinism. These figures are unsustainable in the light of archival evidence, as driven by the likes of Wheatcroft, Davies, Ellman, etc. Yet you have the gall to charge that Soviet crimes have been 'glossed over' when a generation of largely US academics has been systematically exaggerating them?
Again, I don't hold out much hope for you actually being read on that subject or otherwise able to discuss it
I'll give you the courtesy of asking for a source and his methodology but he's wrong. And yes, I will provide sources (as I've done above) that discuss blame on an institutional levelwiesenthal maintained that only 2% of the SS were involved in war crimes.0 -
This obsession with Katyn and other Soviet war crimes is driven by right wing nationalist Poles for ideological reasons.
...
Maybe they just are pi**ed off that the Soviets systematically exterminated a huge chunk of their officer corp and then tried to blame it on the Germans ?As for the nazis and the USSR being just as bad to the Poles perhaps you should look at the figures. The nazis murdered 6 million Poles in WW2. How many did the soviets kill 1945-1989? The nazis tried to exterminate the Polish people. If it were not for the Red Army the Polish people would not exist today. 800,000 Soviet troops died liberating Poland.
I think you are being very generous in your appraisal of the soviets as you term it "liberating" Poland.
They didn't liberate it, they captured it for themselves.
And if they were so interested in the plight of the Poles why did they sit outside Warsaw during the uprising refusing to come to the aid of the Poles.
Claiming the Soviets were somehow the white knights is easy when you compare them to the Germans.
Question: who would rather be lberated by, the Germans, the Soviets, the Americans/Brits/etc ?
BTW the reason for including the Germans in there is that some in the Baltic states saw the Germans arriving in 1941 as much as liberators as you see the Soviets arriving in Poland in 1944.In Poland's communist days the population grew significantly and there was big improvements in housing, education and health services. To say that was the same as the nazis is sheer stupidity.
So communism and Soviet rule was all good then. :rolleyes:
Comparing anyone to the Nazist makes them look positive you know.Around 15 million Soviet citizens were murdered from 1941-1944. They were primarily executed by the SS. The average SS man murdered several civilians during the war.
The Germans just did it faster than the Soviets themselves.I am not allowed discuss …
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Nonsensical post. The Soviets considered themselves a master race? What race is that? Stalin wasn't even Russian.
And there is absolutely no evidence for any of your claims on this thread.
You really should read Russia by Martin Sixsmith, in the interwar period and after WW2 there were intense "Russification" campaigns carried out in the non-Russian republics, especially the Ukraine and the Caucasus. Millions were deported, hundreds of thousands were allowed to die, the Russian language was imposed and local languages banned in public use and Russian settlers moved so as to Russify republics that Stalin and the upper echelons of the Soviet regime considered to be disloyal or anti-communist.0 -
BlaasForRafa wrote: »You really should read Russia by Martin Sixsmith, in the interwar period and after WW2 there were intense "Russification" campaigns carried out in the non-Russian republics, especially the Ukraine and the Caucasus. Millions were deported, hundreds of thousands were allowed to die, the Russian language was imposed and local languages banned in public use and Russian settlers moved so as to Russify republics that Stalin and the upper echelons of the Soviet regime considered to be disloyal or anti-communist.
Thats true. But not in Poland.
I have just read a history of WWII. The Nazis were in fact, worse than I thought. They had clear and documented plans to deport about eighty percent of the Polish population, and similar amounts of the indigenous peoples West of the Urals. In fact while the war was on they had started colonisation. The Soviets did not kill eighty percent of the Polish population.0 -
(Incidentally, I'd like a source for that Soviet "kidnapping" claim. Is it possible that you're discussing the deportation of Nazi POWs to the USSR?)
As I mentioned in another post, you should really buy Russia by Martin Sixsmith. In it he states that after WW2 the Soviets were allowed set up an NKVD office in Paris and they were allowed not only to deport Soviet citizens who had been German POWs but were allowed to kidnap and deport people who had emigrated/escaped from Russia and the other republics during the interwar period. Hundreds of people were kidnapped off the streets of Paris (which had a large Russian quarter) and were deported back to the USSR to face the gulag and/or execution.0 -
Duggys Housemate wrote: »Thats true. But not in Poland.
I have just read a history of WWII. The Nazis were in fact, worse than I thought. They had clear and documented plans to deport about eighty percent of the Polish population, and similar amounts of the indigenous peoples West of the Urals. In fact while the war was on they had started colonisation. The Soviets did not kill eighty percent of the Polish population.
The Germans didn't kill 80% of the Polish population either, practical considerations outweighed the loonier rascist notions of the Nazis. The crimes that they did commit though were despicable, its an irony that the rascist policies of the Nazis contributed greatly to them losing the war. If they had given the Ukrainians, Belorussians their freedom and independance then those countries would probably have joined enthusiastically in fighting the germans, whereas in reality the rascist policies of the Nazis turned those countries into hotbeds of partisans.
The absolutist nature of some of the discussion here where somehow the fact that the germans committed crimes somehow gives the Soviets to also commit crimes. The campaign of murder, rape and looting carried out by the Soviets in 1944/45 against not only the Baltic Germans and Prussians but also in Poland and other central European states was stunning in its ferocity. This has more or less been ignored since the war and unlike the Germans, no Soviet was ever tried for war-crimes. Also, Stalin and the Communists were responsible for more Soviet citizens being killed by action and inaction from the 20's to the late 40's but because they weren't as organised and efficient as the Germans those deaths are somehow "not as bad".0 -
Quite an accusation considering this I observe:BlaasForRafa wrote: »You sound like an apologist for Stalinism. "Oh well he killed a lot but wasn't quite as organised as the Nazis so thats not as bad"BlaasForRafa wrote: »The Germans didn't kill 80% of the Polish population either, practical considerations outweighed the loonier rascist notions of the Nazis.
Whos the apologist for who?
Can you think of any reason why the Soviets actions against retreating German army and people many have been "stunning in its ferocity". Its not an excuse but you seem to not recognise that this treatment of ethnic Germans (mainly) had mitigating factors when compared against the Nazi actions in the preceding years. This type of one eyed view and presentation of history is dangerous.BlaasForRafa wrote: »The campaign of murder, rape and looting carried out by the Soviets in 1944/45 against not only the Baltic Germans and Prussians but also in Poland and other central European states was stunning in its ferocity.0 -
Arresting emigres or Soviet citizens, while certainly not something I'd condone, is very different from the suggestion that Austrians were simply picked off the streets and sent to perish in Soviet minesBlaasForRafa wrote: »As I mentioned in another post, you should really buy Russia by Martin Sixsmith. In it he states that after WW2 the Soviets were allowed set up an NKVD office in Paris and they were allowed not only to deport Soviet citizens who had been German POWs but were allowed to kidnap and deport people who had emigrated/escaped from Russia and the other republics during the interwar period. Hundreds of people were kidnapped off the streets of Paris (which had a large Russian quarter) and were deported back to the USSR to face the gulag and/or execution.
Yet they did kill up to two million non-Jewish Poles and unquestionably would have proceeded with their genocidal campaign had they not lost the war. What we saw in 1939-45, as horrific as it was, was only the beginning of the Nazi reorganisation of EuropeThe Germans didn't kill 80% of the Polish population either, practical considerations outweighed the loonier rascist notions of the Nazis
No. Nobody is suggesting that. Again with the strawmen. The only people introducing whataboutisms and "absolutism" into this discussion are those insisting on a single shade of Commie-Nazi evilThe absolutist nature of some of the discussion here where somehow the fact that the germans committed crimes somehow gives the Soviets to also commit crimes
Nobody has denied that the Stalinist state was brutal and inflicted mass violence on its population. No one is denying the Soviet war crimes. No one is suggesting that these were more acceptable because they "weren't as organised and efficient". You're trying* to knock down a position that no one is defending
What people are saying is that as bad as the Soviet crimes were they were not as bad as those of the Nazis. Again, there were major qualitative and quantitative differences between the two. Poland illustrates this: in 4-5 years the Nazis killed far more Polish citizens than the Soviets did the the following forty. This is not a matter of "efficiency" (ie, it's not that Moscow was trying but failing to eradicate the Poland) but very different policies and worldviews, with very different impacts and outcomes
Yet the insistence of some here is that these different policies must be judged equally harmful (despite all evidence to the contrary) and anyone who suggests otherwise is somehow a Stalinist apologist. Even when the latter fully acknowledge Soviet crimes and make no attempt to deny or excuse them!
It's silly and, certainly in some cases, goes well into the realm of Nazi apologism. As soon as you've established that the Soviets were as great or greater an evil as the Nazis then it's a very small step to condoning the latters' 'crusade against Judeo-Bolshivism'
*And failing, funnily enough. Again, the suggestion that "more Soviet citizens were killed by [Stalinist] action and inaction from the 20's to the late 40's" than the number of civilians murdered by the Nazis is just false. See my above post0 -
Did the poster say that?
Is there anywhere in that post that even comes within a light year of implying that?
Ok the poster didn't say that but alluded to how Poland benefitted under Soviet domination when he stated...In Poland's communist days the population grew significantly and there was big improvements in housing, education and health services.jonniebgood1 wrote: »Quite an accusation considering this I observe:
Whos the apologist for who?
Can you think of any reason why the Soviets actions against retreating German army and people many have been "stunning in its ferocity". Its not an excuse but you seem to not recognise that this treatment of ethnic Germans (mainly) had mitigating factors when compared against the Nazi actions in the preceding years. This type of one eyed view and presentation of history is dangerous.
I can see a point in the Red Army and Soviet state mistreating German army, German civilians and their Allies, but the fact is they mistreated the peoples of the countries that they were supposedly liberating like Poland and the Baltic states.
Hell it is even stated they mistreated fellow Russians in the parts of the USSR they liberated.
Someone mentioned how the first building restored in Leningrad was the NKVD HQ, and that leads onto another interesting point and a illustration of how the Soviet state treated it's own citizens.
After the war and into the late 50s most if not all of the leaders of the beseiged Leningrad were either assassinated, executed or sent to gullags.
See the Leningrad Affair.
So much for a reward for leading the fight against the Germans.
BTW speaking personally I would say just because some posters are trying to highlight the sh** perpetrated by the Soviets doesn't mean we consider the Germans and their proxies any less evil and hideous.
What the Germans did was butchery ultimately leading to organised extermination on an industrial scale.
But the cr** spouted by one poster in particular about how Poles are trying to blacken the name of the Soviets/Russians because they are now right wing Catholics is exactly that, cr**.
BTW the Soviets behaviour speaks for itself and it doesn't take a right wing Catholic to unearth it.
And maybe if the poster considered what it was like to live as a subjugated people for over 40 years under the power of the Soviets he might cop on to why they are not particularly in love with them and their symbols.
BTW I haven't found any normal Poles who were in love with Nazism and what the Germans did either.I am not allowed discuss …
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Interesting letter in the Irish Times that seems to contradict the pseudo historians on here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0702/1224319179307.html
PS Katyn was the worst massacre in the history of civilisation and just mentioning it proves that the USSR was worse than nazi Germany. People should stop droning on about Auschwitz and Treblinka and start remembering the real crimes of WW2 ie Katyn where 4,500 innocent "civilians" were shot because Stalin didn't like the look of them.0 -
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Interesting letter in the Irish Times that seems to contradict the pseudo historians on here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0702/1224319179307.html
It's an opinion peace, not statement of fact. So what's your opinion on it?
ps. I'm sure we can find some far more appalling massacres down through the ages. History didn't begin in 1939 ....0
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