Nappies

Graces7

Please excuse a question from an old lady...Who has no children nor grandchildren but who worked in a children;s home way back. And who has family working in third world countries where they have no choices such as we have.
And who is concerned about children, families, in these hard times money-wise and about the world we live in and how we treat it.

Last week I was behind a young couple at the supermarket, with a wee baby.

Of course I never go down the baby goods aisles so had no idea re prices etc.

I was totally shocked at the costs of the disposable nappies.

Added to that is the awareness of waste disposal for them. As they do not degrade. landfills are a huge issue and more and more so.

We always used cloth nappies for the babies. It was no great burden of work even hand washing.

Liners were washed and reused too.

And the cost of of hot water and detergent set against the cost of the disposals is no contest.

Is it just habit now? Reading threads I see a few who use cloth nappies but so very few.

Blessings and thanks.

3DataModem

Nowadays disposable nappies do degrade.

pwurple

We have a baby with exema, so even though I had the cloth ones, she reacted badly to the detergents. We went to disposable, but got a compacter which squishes them right down.

I don't find them that expensive... It is a box of 70 or 80 for ten euro... 10 to 15 cent each. We let her run around without nappy in the evenings, so it's only 5 or 6 per day usually. A tenner every two weeks isn't mad money.

Hannibal Smith

I'd never dream of using cloth nappies...unless I lived in an area where the bin collections were charged by weight. What about the chemicals used to clean the cloth nappies...my mum told me she used to have to steep them in some concoction before washing them....why put yourself through that when you can wrap it, bag it and bin it. Plus there are always sales on for nappies...you can get a huge box for between 11 and 16 euro.

wmpdd3

My sister in law used cloth nappies for 1 of her 4 kids! She gave up when she had 2 under 2!
Also they had a little liner, that was plastic with those beads in it, so it looked like you were putting a little nappy inside the cloth nappy!

Nappies are alot cheaper than they were in 2008.

Squiggler

Not all disposable nappies are biodegradable, and anyone who lives in the countryside will tell you that some of them would survive a nuclear explosion (people who dump their household rubbish on the side of the road should be made to eat it in my opinion).

A good washing machine will get cloth nappies clean without having to use any "harsh" chemical detergents - simple 60 degree wash (along with the babygros etc).

There are amazing washable nappies out there and biodegradable flushable liners used to collect solids are thin membranes.

At the end of the day everyone has to make up their own mind, but I have many friends who have used re-usable nappies and who hated having to use disposables on holidays etc as they found them not as good and irritating to baby.

Little My

I use cloth nappies and disposables depending on what's going on, disposables if we are away and for night, cloth for days generally.

Firstly, many disposables are not biodegradable. Those that say they are take years to degrade.

Cloth nappies do not need chemicals to be washed. You can use cloth or disposable liners, the disposable ones we have are like a thick sheet of kitchenroll, (but much softer) and can be flushed.

I find the regular nappy bin stinks way worse than the cloth nappies and has to be changed far more often. Cloth nappies get washed every 2 days.

I got my nappies second hand on ebay, so paid about €5 each for nappies that fit from birth to potty. I think I have about 17 or so, which is more than enough for me. Not sure how many you are advised to have.

I'm a little sceptical at this stage how well they will fit my son when is he is bigger, but I will just have to wait and see.

littlemissfixit

I used cloth nappies for my daughter until she was 15 months, and now with my son. Paid around 200 euro for the whole kit, so they paid for themselves nearly before they passed the newborn stage where you change them 10 times a day in average!

I lived in a flat with a simple washing machine, no dryer, just hang to dry, you can get chemical free detergent which wash them perfectly, my two never even had a nappy rash.
I dont find the washing any trouble at all, after all its only throwing them in and then hanging them to dry, hardly hardship!
But I must say the main reason I use cloth nappies is that it brakes my heart every time I have to throw one of them disposable ones in the trash knowing where its going and for how long when there is such an easy alternative.
I also used washable swim nappies instead of little swimmers type. Everything we can do for our environment makes a difference.

Paddy De Plasterer

Yes I am appalled at the amount of disposables going into landfill. We used cloth nappies for our children and it was no great problem.

Vanderlay Industries

We use the bambino mio re-usable nappies for our two and disposables at night and when we are away. I am used to them now but with two in nappies it does create a lot of washing and as I work, it can be hard to keep up with. Have to confess I love going to the in-laws down the country for the weekend just so I can have a break from them! I am the only mother I know who uses them though - everyone thinks I am mad and secretly they think we are just miserly - but I would say we have spent about €350 on the whole set and only that much because we have two kids still in them and we have saved about a tonne of waste from going to landfill. I try to think of that when I am scraping faeces into a bucket but some days it is hard to do! There are pros and cons to them.

wmpdd3

It seems like the liners makes the difference... How much are the liners?

littlemissfixit

I got first liners online along with the nappy kit, i think about 3£ for 100. This time got them from boots, around 3€for 100, but got them when they have the 3 for 2 and got enough for the next year at least for about 35 €. the nappies rarely get dirty at all.

iguana

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

What about the chemicals used to clean the cloth nappies...my mum told me she used to have to steep them in some concoction before washing them....

You barely use any anymore. You are never, ever supposed to steep modern cloth nappies in anything more than an optional drop of tea tree oil per load, no water, certainly no chemicals. In the wash you mainly wash at 40˚c with an occasional 60˚c wash if you feel it's necessary. And you are supposed to use the absolute minimum of detergent, maybe half a capfull per load. On average people do an extra 2-3 washes per week. On an environmental scale there is no comparison whatsoever between reusables and disposables.


I'll be using reusables. I got a full 3 stage stash* and all extras that should last me through this baby and any future babies for €135. Which is an awful lot cheaper than buying disposables for even one kid. I only ever put my black bin out 3-4 times a year right now. With nappies in it I'd have to do it fortnightly, so the extra waste costs a year would come to quite a bit more than my whole outlay for nappies.

And if I find that it's getting to be a bit much for me, I've calculated that for less than the cost of nappies and waste I could have a cleaner come around and do my vacuuming, floor washing, kitchen and bathroom surfaces for what I'll be saving on nappies and waste. Which is a lot more work than 3 loads of washing in an automatic washing machine.


I'll be using reusables. I got a full 3 stage stash* and all extras that should last me through this baby and any future babies for €135. Which is an awful lot cheaper than buying disposables for even one kid. I only ever put my black bin out 3-4 times a year right now. With nappies in it I'd have to do it fortnightly, so the extra waste costs a year would come to quite a bit more than my whole outlay for nappies.

And if I find that it's getting to be a bit much for me, I've calculated that for less than the cost of nappies and waste I could have a cleaner come around and do my vacuuming, floor washing, kitchen and bathroom surfaces for what I'll be saving on nappies and waste. Which is a lot more work than 3 loads of washing in an automatic washing machine.

*newborn
prefolds 24 nappies
6 Wraps
200 flushable bio-liners.

Size 1
20 cotton nappies,
10 covers,
20 cotton booster liners,
20 fleece liners.

Size 2
20 fitted nappies with cotton liner attached,
10 covers,
20 fleece liners,

4 bamboo booster liners,
2 white laundry pails,
2 merino night time covers,
lanolin conditioning liquid.

How Strange

If/when we have no.2 I intend to use reusable. I feel a little guilty that I didn't use them on my son. I know a few mums who use them, all work full time and some have 2 kids, and they all say it's no more work really. I guess people just think its more hassle.

Hannibal Smith

I read online before that you either need napisan to wash at 30 degrees, or you need to wash at 60 degrees without napisan, which is higher energy costs. There's the separate loads needed for nappies, the drier, because let's face it how are you going to dry 10 nappies every few days otherwise?

I also read there's a chance of getting 'stinky nappies' to combat this you put the nappies through the wash 5 times by themselves....all these costs ad up and have a drain on energy.

My mother used cloth nappies on us, two of us were twins and when I mentioned this thread to her you could see the terror come back to her eyes

I have done no research on it....other than a bit of online reading, but I would love to see a proper comparison on environmental effects, if anyone has it? Just because you can't see the effects of energy use as you can with landfill, doesnt mean its not there. Is it as big a drain I wonder?

I'm not putting anyone off by the way, its very commendable...but not for me.

How Strange

Yep Hannibal I think a lot of us have the memory of the stinky nappy bin and assume its still the same. I've no direct experience of what you need to wash them with but I'd be very surprised if the mums I know would use napisan. They're all very eco aware which is why they chose the reusables over disposables. I'll ask them over the weekend.

Hannibal Smith

I think if I lived in an area where bin charges were calculated by weight i'd consider it....but that's it lol.

Joey the lips

look.... please forgive me.

I am a parent of a disabled child. I am up to my oxters in ****. Its very hard having to change the nappy of an 8 year old that ****s constantly. I also have a 2 year old who ****s and its strong.

I will never use terry towels or washable nappies. I dont expect my wife to use washable sanitary towels. I dont expect my kids to carry a cloth hanky rather than a tissue.

My mother will never use a recycled or transferable urine bag.

Why... because the technology is there to make sure i take as litte **** as possible,

I remember as a child the whole line was taken up with terry towels. With the way we clean clothes these days i would need 3 clothes lines or what i save on nappies i would use in dryer time.

Little My

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I read online before that you either need napisan to wash at 30 degrees, or you need to wash at 60 degrees without napisan, which is higher energy costs. There's the separate loads needed for nappies, the drier, because let's face it how are you going to dry 10 nappies every few days otherwise?

I also read there's a chance of getting 'stinky nappies' to combat this you put the nappies through the wash 5 times by themselves....all these costs ad up and have a drain on energy.

My mother used cloth nappies on us, two of us were twins and when I mentioned this thread to her you could see the terror come back to her eyes

I have done no research on it....other than a bit of online reading, but I would love to see a proper comparison on environmental effects, if anyone has it? Just because you can't see the effects of energy use as you can with landfill, doesnt mean its not there. Is it as big a drain I wonder?

I'm not putting anyone off by the way, its very commendable...but not for me.

I wash nappies at 40 degrees, with about half the amount of normal non-bio detergent you would usually use, with an extra rinse. They mostly come out perfect.

We have microfibre inserts, mainly because of the drying time. I'd have preferred a natural fibre but the microfibre ones dry pretty much overnight on an airer, so it works out better for me.

Joeythelips, no one is expecting you to use cloth nappies. I don't *expect* anyone to use them..... what works for some families just will not work for others. And there are other issues too, my sister-in-law was using cloth nappies but had to use disposable nappies for the creche. So its not the right choice for everyone.

They really aren't as much work as everyone thinks, but no matter how much you say this no one seems to believe it.

iguana

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I read online before that you either need napisan to wash at 30 degrees, or you need to wash at 60 degrees without napisan, which is higher energy costs. There's the separate loads needed for nappies, the drier, because let's face it how are you going to dry 10 nappies every few days otherwise?

Modern nappies are never soaked. It's unnecessary and harmful to the nappy. You are never supposed to use anything like Napisan, ever. It's highly destructive to the fibers and reduces absorbency. If you are using a shaped nappies soaking will destroy the elastic and velcro. A 40˚c wash is generally recommended, with a 60˚c wash if you find it necessary if it's heavily soiled. You use a tiny amount of detergent as otherwise the nappy, being designed for maximum absorbency, will hold on to the detergent in the wash and that's what makes them stinky.

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I also read there's a chance of getting 'stinky nappies' to combat this you put the nappies through the wash 5 times by themselves....all these costs ad up and have a drain on energy.

If they are stinky this is because the detergent build up reduces the absorbency so you do what's called a strip wash. To do this you do a 60˚wash but instead of laundry detergent you throw in a dishwasher tablet. And at the end you programme 1 or 2 extra rinse cycles. That will take out all the detergent and the nappies won't smell any more.

My mother used cloth nappies on us, two of us were twins and when I mentioned this thread to her you could see the terror come back to her eyes

My mum used cloth on all of us and she could never understand why disposables were so popular. During the 90s she was a childminder and all the kids she had wore disposables and she hated them so much. They smell more due to the chemicals that turn the urine to gel, they sit around in the bin for a week stinking it up. And when I and the older of my brothers were babies my mum had a twin tub washing machine that was only semi-automatic so washing was a lot more work than it is now. That said none of us ever wore a nappy beyond 13 months, and only wore then at night from 10-11 months, so my mum barely had 3 years of nappy washes between the lot of us.

I have done no research on it....other than a bit of online reading, but I would love to see a proper comparison on environmental effects, if anyone has it? Just because you can't see the effects of energy use as you can with landfill, doesnt mean its not there. Is it as big a drain I wonder?

No where near as much. Just the energy used in the manufacture of one pack of disposable nappies is significantly higher than several weeks of washing disposables and that's calculated at 60˚c washes and a full tumble drying for every wash, which few people do. That's before you get to the transport and packaging costs of the disposable nappies, the transport costs in particular are massive. So long before you ever get to the issue of landfill, cloth nappies are significantly better in terms of pollution. Once you add in landfill the environmental costs just stop being comparable, they are so far apart.

Ms2011

iguana wrote: »

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

What about the chemicals used to clean the cloth nappies...my mum told me she used to have to steep them in some concoction before washing them....

I only ever put my black bin out 3-4 times a year right now. With nappies in it I'd have to do it fortnightly, so the extra waste costs a year would come to quite a bit more than my whole outlay for nappies.

I think this is a bit excessive. My son is almost 11 weeks old & I've only put my black bin out once since he was born & that had been mostly filled before he was even born. I will get about another month & a half before I will have to put the black bin out again at a cost of €7.50.
Gardening fills my bin quicker than nappies do. I'm not saying disposables are cheaper overall but just as far as the financial cost of disposing of them goes it doesn't cost me too much.

dublinlady

I would never use cloth nappies personally - I think it is vile. My opinion only obvs! I think it is unnecessary and not of any benefit hugely to the environment. I think I like the efficiency and ease of use of disposables - I also don't want to touch poo when it's totally unnecessary.
No one will ever convince be that washing and drying nappies is easier than throwing them in the bin.
I personally feel some ppl need to be martyrs as mothers - I would rather keep life easy and simple.
I think each to their own regardless of the reasons - its just really not for me!

Hannibal Smith

iguana wrote: »

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I read online before that you either need napisan to wash at 30 degrees, or you need to wash at 60 degrees without napisan, which is higher energy costs. There's the separate loads needed for nappies, the drier, because let's face it how are you going to dry 10 nappies every few days otherwise?

Modern nappies are never soaked. It's unnecessary and harmful to the nappy. You are never supposed to use anything like Napisan, ever. It's highly destructive to the fibers and reduces absorbency. If you are using a shaped nappies soaking will destroy the elastic and velcro. A 40˚c wash is generally recommended, with a 60˚c wash if you find it necessary if it's heavily soiled. You use a tiny amount of detergent as otherwise the nappy, being designed for maximum absorbency, will hold on to the detergent in the wash and that's what makes them stinky.

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I also read there's a chance of getting 'stinky nappies' to combat this you put the nappies through the wash 5 times by themselves....all these costs ad up and have a drain on energy.

If they are stinky this is because the detergent build up reduces the absorbency so you do what's called a strip wash. To do this you do a 60˚wash but instead of laundry detergent you throw in a dishwasher tablet. And at the end you programme 1 or 2 extra rinse cycles. That will take out all the detergent and the nappies won't smell any more.

My mother used cloth nappies on us, two of us were twins and when I mentioned this thread to her you could see the terror come back to her eyes

My mum used cloth on all of us and she could never understand why disposables were so popular. During the 90s she was a childminder and all the kids she had wore disposables and she hated them so much. They smell more due to the chemicals that turn the urine to gel, they sit around in the bin for a week stinking it up. And when I and the older of my brothers were babies my mum had a twin tub washing machine that was only semi-automatic so washing was a lot more work than it is now. That said none of us ever wore a nappy beyond 13 months, and only wore then at night from 10-11 months, so my mum barely had 3 years of nappy washes between the lot of us.

I have done no research on it....other than a bit of online reading, but I would love to see a proper comparison on environmental effects, if anyone has it? Just because you can't see the effects of energy use as you can with landfill, doesnt mean its not there. Is it as big a drain I wonder?

No where near as much. Just the energy used in the manufacture of one pack of disposable nappies is significantly higher than several weeks of washing disposables and that's calculated at 60˚c washes and a full tumble drying for every wash, which few people do. That's before you get to the transport and packaging costs of the disposable nappies, the transport costs in particular are massive. So long before you ever get to the issue of landfill, cloth nappies are significantly better in terms of pollution. Once you add in landfill the environmental costs just stop being comparable, they are so far apart.

They must be different sites we were reading....I'm on my phone so can't link at the moment...but the side I read...was bumglee or something and it said you can either wash the nappies with napisan at 30 degrees or wash with non at 60 degrees. No steeping...the napisan goes into your washing machine.

What about the transport and manufacturing costs of the cloth nappies, liners and outer layer, they have environmental impacts to.

I'm not an environmental expert, but do they stop being comparable? Is it that we can't see the effects energy draining has on the environment that stops it being comparable? As it is my bin goes out once every 2 to 3 weeks...I recycle everything I can...I compost and all my washes go on after 7pm.

You've separate washes for the clothes, separate for the nappies, starter washes, strip washes, and how to you dry them? You've extra washing detergent going into the environment on top of all that. Is it enough to discard all those environmental effects?

What bin was stinking with urine? The outside bin? Is that a major issue? Having said that....my bin doesn't stink of wee?

Little My

If you are interested in the environmental comparison, this is a good place to start...

http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/PDF/SCHO0808BOIR-E-E.pdf

"Conclusions:
The study has estimated, using a 2006 reference point, the environmental impacts of a child using disposable nappies for the first two and a half years of its life and a child using shaped cloth nappies for the same period.
The study demonstrates the environmental effects of:
• Disposable nappy design and manufacturing.
• Disposable nappy disposal choices.
• Laundry choices for shaped nappy use.

The average 2006 disposable nappy would result in a global warming impact of approximately 550kg of carbon dioxide equivalents used over the two and a half years a child is typically in nappies. The global warming impact from disposable nappies use has decreased since the previous study due to manufacturing changes and a 13.5 per cent reduction in the weight of nappies.

The report highlights that the manufacture of disposable nappies has greater environmental impact in the UK than their waste management by landfill. For reusable nappies, the baseline scenario based on average washer and drier use produced a global warming impact of approximately 570kg of carbon dioxide equivalents. However, the study showed that the impacts for reusable nappies are highly dependent on the way they are laundered.

Washing the nappies in fuller loads or line-drying them outdoors all the time (ignoring UK climatic conditions for the purposes of illustration) was found to reduce this figure by 16 per cent. Combining three of the beneficial scenarios (washing nappies in a fuller load, outdoor line drying all of the time, and reusing nappies on a second child) would lower the global warming impact by 40 per cent from the baseline scenario, or some 200kg of carbon dioxide equivalents over the two and a half years, equal to driving a car approximately 1,000 km.

In contrast, the study indicated that if a consumer tumble-dried all their reusable nappies, it would produce a global warming impact 43 per cent higher than the baseline scenario. Similarly, washing nappies at 90°C instead of at 60°C would increase global warming impact by 31 per cent over the baseline. Combining these two energy intensive scenarios would increase the global warming impact by 75 per cent over the baseline scenario, or some 420kg of carbon dioxide equivalent over the two and a half years.

The environmental impacts of using shaped reusable nappies can be higher or lower than using disposables, depending on how they are laundered. The report shows that, in contrast to the use of disposable nappies, it is consumers’ behaviour after purchase that determines most of the impacts from reusable nappies.

Cloth nappy users can reduce their environmental impacts by:
• Line drying outside whenever possible.
• Tumble drying as little as possible.
• When replacing appliances, choosing more energy efficient appliances (A+
rated machines are preferred).
• Not washing above 60°C.
• Washing fuller loads.
• Reusing nappies on other children. "

iguana

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

What about the transport and manufacturing costs of the cloth nappies, liners and outer layer, they have environmental impacts to. I'm not an environmental expert, but do they stop being comparable? Is it that we can't see the effects energy draining has on the environment that stops it being comparable? As it is my bin goes out once every 2 to 3 weeks...I recycle everything I can...I compost and all my washes go on after 7pm.

You've separate washes for the clothes, separate for the nappies, starter washes, strip washes, and how to you dry them? You've extra washing detergent going into the environment on top of all that. Is it enough to discard all those environmental effects?

I'm not discarding those environmental effects, I'm comparing them and they never even start to compare. From manufacture to use, disposable nappies use 3.5 times as much energy, 8 times as much non-renewable raw materials and 90 times as much renewable material as reuseable nappies. They produce 2.3 times as much waste water and 60 times as much solid waste. In this country alone 2,200,000 go into landfill annually. The environmental impact is massively negative.

iguana

Little My, I think what you've quoted is part one of a two part study conducted by the UK EA in 2006 with a 2008 addendum. Both parts of the study have been widely discredited due to their use of factually incorrect data with regards to the maintenance of cloth nappies, such as the assumption that each washing load is done at 90˚c and their use of the lowest impact predictions for manufacture of disposal nappies rather than actual data. The study also concentrates on manufacture of disposables and doesn't calculate waste issues.

The most comprehensive study done to date is that conducted by Landbank Consultancy which provided the following findings;

Hannibal Smith

Okay Little My, I'll go have a look at that link and come back, thanks for that.

From a quick scan of the internet, it doesn't seem that clear cut, and infact appears to be a wide open debate between environmentalists. Some saying it's impossible to compare the impact they both have. There is waste on both sides in the manufacturing of supplying of both types of nappies, not to mention the liners and other paraphenalia that goes with reusable nappies. There's the carbon dioxide used not only in manufacturing but in washing and drying them. Presumably the impact on the environment of cloth nappies would depend on how you wash and dry them and whether you use detergents such as napisan, and even the extra use (albeit very odd time) of dishwasher tablets, it all adds to water waste and detergents going into the water and whether you use a tumble dryer.

On that chart that you have referred to in your last post Iguana, I'm wondering regarding the 'waste water', I presume that refers to waste water in manufacturing? Because I'm wondering what domestic waste water disposable nappies produce.

Anyhow...sorry for the waffle...I'll go have a look at that link now

dublinlady

Poo on ur hands.... Vs.... No poo on ur hands......
Just to lighten the mood

Hannibal Smith

dublinlady wrote: »

Poo on ur hands.... Vs.... No poo on ur hands......
Just to lighten the mood

You should have heard the way my mother phrased it

TooManyDogs

We debated long and hard on what nappies to use when I was pregnant, my sister was using cloth on her baby who's only 10 months older than mine so we were asking her about it and also trying to be honest with ourselves about our own limitations. Here's the things we considered -

- We live down a hill by the sea, so there's a lot of sea mist which massively reduces effectiveness of line drying.
- My sister used to depend on using her spare room to put up clothes dryers for the nappies but would always have the heating on while we barely use the heating at all, use a wood stove and don't have room in the sitting room for an air dryer.
- We're rubbish at doing the washing, as it is we often have an overflowing wash basket so realistically adding 3 extra washes a week was going to be a disaster.
- Like a lot of people said, we couldn't find conclusive unbiased proof about environmental benefits, so found it difficult to make a decision that way.

In the end we decided to change to a waste provider that uses mechanical and biological treatment so the waste would be broken down into gases to be used for energy and compacted solid waste that would be used as a coal substitute, so it doesn't go to landfill.

My sister and her little girl also moved in with us for 9 months so we had a side by side comparison which was interesting. What we found was that the tumble dryer was on for 4 hours at least 3 days a week for nappies which it never had been before or since. She could hang the same nappy wash on the line for 2 sunny days running and it still not be dry, it drove her nuts, she didn't have those problems in her last house. The bathroom where the dirty nappy bin was stored would often smell of stale urine, and there would be a faint stale urine smell off the clean nappies too. My niece could go through at least 2 pairs of trousers a day because the nappies would leak. The extra washing and tumble drying drove our electricity bill up.

So I think on balance using disposable nappies and changing waste provider was the best option for us.

PBroderick

dublinlady wrote: »

I would never use cloth nappies personally - I think it is vile. My opinion only obvs! I think it is unnecessary and not of any benefit hugely to the environment. I think I like the efficiency and ease of use of disposables - I also don't want to touch poo when it's totally unnecessary.
No one will ever convince be that washing and drying nappies is easier than throwing them in the bin.
I personally feel some ppl need to be martyrs as mothers - I would rather keep life easy and simple.
I think each to their own regardless of the reasons - its just really not for me!

What a load of drivel that was....martyrs and poo on your hands

What are you talking about ffs?