Mother/father & new partner

Pebbles!

Can the mother decide that she won't let the father's partner be around the children? He can see the children just not in the presence of his new partner?

There is no reason other than she is the new partner, she would not cause harm to the children etc..

Squiggler

I don't know what the legal situation is, but I can understand why a parent might not want their child meeting someone who, while part of the other parents life NOW might not be around for the long term.

It can be confusing for children to meet a string of Mom or Dad's "partners" and I think it is unfair to encourage them to form attachments for people who may be persona non-grata with both parents in the not-too-distant future.

seamus

Strictly speaking, no. If a parent has unsupervised access with a child, then the other parent cannot dictate the who, what and where of the access.

In reality, the mother tends to be the one holding all of the cards and can make the father's life very difficult for not sticking with her wishes. This is particularly so if he does not have legal guardianship or his access has been dictated through the courts.

As squiggler says, there is a reasonable objection if the father is in a new relationship. However if it's a fairly long-standing relationship (a year or more), then I think its unreasonable to demand that the child cannot meet the father's partner.

Sesame

I don't know if theres any legal reason if thats what your asking.
But I don't think its fair to introduce children to a new girlfriend. A girlfriend thats been on the scene for maybe 6 months to a year, then thats fine, but not a new one.
From a childs point of view, they are already unsettled by a break up. Now trying to understand why daddy has a replacement for mummy. Who may or may not last very long and then another one comes along. Its not fair on that child who is supposed to be encouraged to trust this new person in their life.
I think if you wait until its serious, and not just in the dating stages and introduce slowly without any expectations, it is easier on the child.

Zizigirl

It's a pet hate of mine how these type of posts always tend toward the father being the 'issue'. I think no matter which parent is in a new relationship it should be discussed between both parents exactly what each other expect/would like. At the end of the day, the child's best interests are paramount and a new partner will just have to respect that.

Can one parent dictate to another? Not legally, but sadly for the children involved, this is what is happening every day in this country due to unclear boundaries and gender inequality.

Z

The Corinthian

Sesame wrote: »

But I don't think its fair to introduce children to a new girlfriend. A girlfriend thats been on the scene for maybe 6 months to a year, then thats fine, but not a new one.

Equating introducing a child to a father's new 'friend' with "a replacement for mummy" is paranoid to say the least. Whether the partner is in a relationship with the father for a month or a year it comes to how this is handled and frankly I would doubt that it would ever be handled in such a way that she is introduced as a 'replacement'.

I've seen this issue raised time and time again on this and other fora and, TBH, the root cause of objection almost always turns out to be jealously on the part of the mother that the father has moved on and she has not. The rest is just rationalization that it is somehow in the interests of the child. It's not.

Sesame

I understand what your saying but I'm not trying to be biased towards the father or mother. My answer works both ways.
I'm also putting myself in the childs shoes when I say this.
If I was a kid who had a happy mum and dad and then one parent gets a new partner who they kiss, share a bed with, etc in front of me, of course it will be seen as confusing for me.
One parent, in this case the mother, has been replaced in the affections by their father by another woman.
Its nothing to do with jealousy on the mother's part or the mother's own insecurities.
I'm happily married but if not and my husband had a new partner, I wouldn't be happy with him introducing my son to a new girlfriend every few months. (Which may happen if he's ventured into the world of dating after a long break).
I would be happy if he met someone special who he was in love with and it was serious and they were moving in together or considering it. In that case, the relationship is stable and the child has got one circumstance change to deal with and adjust to.
Its unfair on a child to have to meet a new person, encouraged to bond with them, and the next day/month be replaced by another.
I really can't see any argument for that.
Of course the mother and father may have their own unresolved issues with jealousy and insecurities on both parts. But in this case, I don't believe jealousy is the cause. It sounds like the mother is being sensible and the father being slightly selfish. This selfishness may end up creating a child who has a warped view of relationships which in turn could end up creating behavioural problems.
Sorry if thats harsh but I have seen evidence of this in children.

The Corinthian

Sesame wrote: »

If I was a kid who had a happy mum and dad and then one parent gets a new partner who they kiss, share a bed with, etc in front of me, of course it will be seen as confusing for me.

Which is why I said it come down to how such an introduction is handled. Just because a new partner is introduced, this does not mean that they are going to be all over each other from the onset, or that the new partner is going to be sleeping over when the child is doing so.

I can understand what you are saying, but to simply unilaterally veto such contact without even a discussion on how it is handled is hardly rational or reasonable.

But in this case, I don't believe jealousy is the cause. It sounds like the mother is being sensible and the father being slightly selfish. This selfishness may end up creating a child who has a warped view of relationships which in turn could end up creating behavioural problems.

All we know about 'this case' is from the OP:

Pebbles! wrote: »

Can the mother decide that she won't let the father's partner be around the children? He can see the children just not in the presence of his new partner?

There is no reason other than she is the new partner, she would not cause harm to the children etc..

How on Earth you could deduce that "the father being slightly selfish" or that it's not down to jealousy from this is a bit bizarre.

Sesame

Your right, I don't know the circumstances, but I focused on the part where it says "new" partner.
Any mother would not be happy with a child meeting a new partner for those reason I mentioned.
Any jealousy issues would be subordinate to the main issue of keeping stability and familiarity at the forefront of the changes.

Sesame

Should also add based on your comment about it being selfish by the father. I stand by that. Its for the fathers benefit, not the childs, to introduce the new partner.
Long term parter, then fair enough, the child may get a lovely new person to share their time with, to bond with, learn from.
But a new partner who has a high potential to leave the scene is for the father's benefit.

December2012

to quote Maud Flanders - won't somebody please think of the children?

No matter how bad the break up or the relationship, it is always confusing for children when the people that THEY love the most in the world, THEIR security, THEIR world, are broken up or separated. Now after time, this becomes easier to deal with, and while it may no longer seem to hurt the child / children, there are still elements of confusion and instability.

So any new relationship has to be handled sensitively - on both sides and to all people.

The child themselves may feel like they have taken second place by a new partner, even if that new partner is lovely. The simple fact is that the person that the child loves (i.e. their parent), now has another person in their life. This is particularly relevant when children are young.

Most children love their parents so much that they will go along with it, but again, handled sensitively and appropriately.

Also, it is a very brave / liar who would say that they are not a bit put out when their partner whom they have separated from or who they left has now got a new partner in their lives. I mean, c'mon, we are all human.

so for sensitivity of the other parent, sensitivity of the child and for the family itself (because you are still a family even though you are not together, and I'm sure you told your children that), make the best decision and course of action for the family, not the individual.

The Corinthian

Sesame wrote: »

Your right, I don't know the circumstances, but I focused on the part where it says "new" partner.

New can mean they're together for two weeks, or six months or even a year. I've even heard of new partners being referred to as such two years after the relationship has started.

Yet even focusing on the word 'new' how you deduced that "the father being slightly selfish" is still beyond me.

Any mother would not be happy with a child meeting a new partner for those reason I mentioned.
Any jealousy issues would be subordinate to the main issue of keeping stability and familiarity at the forefront of the changes.

In reality, and you see it time and time again in threads where the mother is actually questioned on the details of the new partner and previous relationship, you discover that jealousy issues are not subordinated; wafer thin justifications 'in the interests of the child' are trotted out and when it is pointed out how transparently these are nothing but excuses, the poster typically abandons the thread to seek validation elsewhere.

Should also add based on your comment about it being selfish by the father. I stand by that. Its for the fathers benefit, not the childs, to introduce the new partner.
Long term parter, then fair enough, the child may get a lovely new person to share their time with, to bond with, learn from.

And by that logic it is for the mother's benefit that they are not introduced, leading to an equal accusation of selfishness. Works both ways.

But a new partner who has a high potential to leave the scene is for the father's benefit.

And again, for the third time, much of it comes down to how it's handled. If this was a platonic friend, introduced simply as a friend, would there be a similar issue? And if the new partner was introduced as a 'friend' and care was taken introduce the relationship slowly, how would this differ?

It would differ only in that the mother would know there's a relationship.

ash23

It depends on the circumstances. If the childs time with the father is very limited then it's not fair for the child to have to share that time with a new partner imo. Also if the breakup was recent and the child is coming to terms with the separation of the parents, it's not fair to the child to muddy the waters.
Also, if one person hurts the other in the split or if cheating was involved, then imo it's quite cruel for that person to introduce the new partner when the old partner is still hurting. Giving things time to settle down is respectful. Sure, you owe the ex nothing. But if that ex is the mother of your children and you are going to be co-parenting with them, then a little bit of consideration and respectfulness goes a long way.

And of course, if the partner is new on the scene then it's best to keep the children out of it until the relationship is established and you know it's going to be long term.

I don't think that legally a parent can stop another from introducing a new partner unless the new partner is a threat to the kids. But just because someone CAN do something, doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to do. Forcing the issue very early on can do far more harm than good.

The Corinthian

ash23 wrote: »

If the childs time with the father is very limited then it's not fair for the child to have to share that time with a new partner imo.

That's a very valid reason, but it does not mean that the new partner is vetoed from any contact.

Also if the breakup was recent and the child is coming to terms with the separation of the parents, it's not fair to the child to muddy the waters.

That is definitely a valid reason.

Also, if one person hurts the other in the split or if cheating was involved, then imo it's quite cruel for that person to introduce the new partner when the old partner is still hurting.

Indeed, although at least then it should be called for what it is without resorting to altruistic rationalizations.

And of course, if the partner is new on the scene then it's best to keep the children out of it until the relationship is established and you know it's going to be long term.

In the longer term, I don't think I'd agree and would still feel that how it is handled is more important. Naturally, if the father cannot handle it in a manner which would protect the child(ren), then I'd agree though.

I don't think that legally a parent can stop another from introducing a new partner unless the new partner is a threat to the kids. But just because someone CAN do something, doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to do. Forcing the issue very early on can do far more harm than good.

Depends on what early on means. Grudges can last for years.

Pebbles!

Il just point out that the father is in love with his partner, they have been together for over a year. The wife knows He is in love but is only after finding out about the relationship and said she will not have her kids around her.

ash23

Pebbles! wrote: »

Il just point out that the father is in love with his partner, they have been together for over a year. The wife knows He is in love but is only after finding out about the relationship and said she will not have her kids around her.

Did the father introduce the kids to the new partner in the last year?
Did he talk about it with the mother first? It may be just a knee jerk reaction by the mother because she is hurt and/or worried about the kids.
He should try to talk about it with the mother calmly and rationally.

December2012

This is an indicator of how crap communication is between these two parents. If I were them I would focus on making that better before getting into the new partner situation. Family mediation maybe?

The Corinthian

It seems clear that the father in this case kept quiet in part because he did not want to introduce his new relationship until it was solid and in part because he correctly foresaw his ex's reaction (which was not worth it until the relationship was solid) - it's hardly surprising that communication between them is poor if the consequences of communicating are this, TBH.

As ash23 suggests it may be a short term reaction and he should try to let her cool down a bit before having a reasoned discussion with her. If that fails, then it depends upon the access order (if any) that he has; if he has unsupervised access then she will be in breach of that order if she attempts to obstruct it and he should initiate court proceedings after she's done so a few times (keeping a careful record of each breach). If he has no access order then he should apply for one immediately.

Mediation is also an option, before going to court, but genuinely only if he thinks it will make a difference (i.e. if a third party is more likely to be listened to). Mediation is only as good as the open-mindedness of both parties and their willingness to abide by what is agreed.