Complete Beginner - Bitter Tasting Espresso

Bawnmore

A complete beginner so go easy on me if any of the questions are stupid - I picked up a 2nd hand Gaggia Classic over the weekend and I'm putting aside money now until I can pick up a decent burr grinder. Until then, I'll be buying pre ground beans from either Nicks in Ranelagh or 3FE on Grand Canal Lower.

I popped over to 3FE on Sunday and picked up some Hasbean Nicaragua Limoncillo Washed 2012 beans on the suggestion of the barista there at the time (couldn't have been more helpful in there!). They ground the beans for me based on planning to use the Gaggia, and away I went. Since yesterday morning, I've pulled 5 or 6 espresso's (tries with both double and single baskets) and I've gotten a very bitter shot each time.

To give an idea of the method I'm using:

- I turn the machine on with the leftmost switch about 6-8 minutes before I start with the basket in to warm it up.
- I fill up the basket until it's slightly overflowing, shaking it with each spoon to ensure even distribution.
- I level the basket out with a knife making sure the to entire basket is full/even and tidy grounds from the edges.
- I then tamp the grounds firmly into the basket and again try keep the edges as even as possible. I'm using the tamper that came with the Classic which is small and plastic and doesn't really fit so takes a few times pushing down. I'm looking out for another tamper.
- I twist the basket into the machine.
- Flick the rightmost switch to turn on the pump.

I've changed the shot a few times (tamping more/less, waiting until heating cycle completes/close to finish) to see if I could get a less bitter shot, but no joy. Double basket seems to pull the best looking espresso (with crema), but I think it's running too fast. I'm getting 2oz in about 12 seconds which seems to be twice as fast as I should be getting it if aiming for 2oz in 25 second.

I've read that a bitter shot might also mean the water temperature isn't right, but haven't looked into it any more. Given that it's making 2oz in 12 seconds, I could hazard a guess that I need the coffee to be ground finer or tamped firmer. So any suggestions based on the long winded rundown above? Is there something glaringly obvious that I'm doing wrong?! Any advice really appreciated!

PPC

A burr grinder will help remove that bitter taste a lot, you should be aiming for 1.6 x ground coffee as liquid in 28 seconds or so.
So when I dose 19g of ground coffee i'm looking for 30g of espresso in 28 seconds.

Don't bother with the single basket, stick with the double.
Try tamp harder to slow the speed of extraction too.

Search this forum for the Gaggia Classic OPV mod and try reduce down your pressure, the stock pressure is set at 15bar so you can use the ESE pods, but as you're using proper coffee you'll need to drop it down, which should decrease the flow rate too.

adrian522

Firstly Congratulations on your purchase. The Gaggia Classic is certainly capable of producing great shots but it is a matter of trial and error.

The next thing to do is to slowly build up a stock of essentials. Keep an eye on adverts for second hand stuff.

You are going to need a grinder to get good shots. You can pick up a hand grinder but that won't be great for espresso and will be a lot of work.

If you can get a good burr grinder decond hand then go for it. Take a look at coffeeangel for the sort of thing you will be looking for.

As you say above you need a proper tamper the plastic one is pretty useless.

Hasbean sell decent tampers, and are not too expensive.

You also need a scales, you should be able to pick up a cheap set off ebay. I use something like this:

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Best-New-Digital-Pocket-Jewelry-Scale-1000g-0-1g-Weight-Balance-/120892741634?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item1c25c4d802

It allows you to measure to 0.1g which is a great help, you can also slide it under the cup when pulling the shot and stop the flow when you reach the desired weight.

When making espresso you need to "dial in" the grind to make it perfect so that you get good shots consistently. Given you ar not grinding your beans you are stuck with the one grind you can not change that.

I would also try and keep the tamp consistent (i.e don't try and change the flow time by tamping harder or softer, try to tamp with the same pressure each time).

What you can change is the amount of coffee in the basket (dose).

Try this: Measure out 18g of coffee, put it in the basket and tamp and then make your espresso, time how long it takes for you to get 28g of espresso.

Less then 20 seconds, increase the dose by 0.2 g, longer than 30 seconds decrease the dose.

Repeat until you are getting shots of between 22-28 seconds.

This should get you some pretty good shots even with pre ground coffee.

Let us know how you get on with this.

Bawnmore

PPC wrote: »

Search this forum for the Gaggia Classic OPV mod and try reduce down your pressure, the stock pressure is set at 15bar so you can use the ESE pods, but as you're using proper coffee you'll need to drop it down, which should decrease the flow rate too.

Will give that a search, thanks!

The next thing to do is to slowly build up a stock of essentials. Keep an eye on adverts for second hand stuff.

You are going to need a grinder to get good shots. You can pick up a hand grinder but that won't be great for espresso and will be a lot of work.

If you can get a good burr grinder decond hand then go for it. Take a look at coffeeangel for the sort of thing you will be looking for.

I was going to pick up a hand grinder yesterday, but since I'm looking for a burr grinder anyway, I think I'll just have to make do with ground in the meantime.

Hasbean sell decent tampers, and are not too expensive.

Great, thanks. Took a look and they're quite reasonable. I'm right beside a homeware store here at work so might drop in later today and see if they have anything.

You also need a scales, you should be able to pick up a cheap set off ebay. I use something like this:

Ordered one earlier this morning but from DealExtreme so will be a few weeks. Just reserved a digital scales in Argos now for collection later today and will keep the other as a backup.

What you can change is the amount of coffee in the basket (dose)..........

........Let us know how you get on with this.

Fantastic - I'll give this a shot as soon as I pick up the scales and post back here. Need to tone it down a bit later today as I'd a shocking nights sleep last night which I'd suspect is due to this learning curve

donnacha

some great advice already above.

Just something I'd add on the burr grinder - I would recommend buying locally. The reason I say this is that I have two - I use one for espresso and 1 for filter. The espresso grinder has stopped working on me twice, the filter once. On all occasions the local supplier has gone over and above the call of duty to put me in touch with people that can help/repair.

Bawnmore

Just something I'd add on the burr grinder - I would recommend buying locally. The reason I say this is that I have two - I use one for espresso and 1 for filter. The espresso grinder has stopped working on me twice, the filter once. On all occasions the local supplier has gone over and above the call of duty to put me in touch with people that can help/repair.

Thanks - that's something that wouldn't have crossed my mind. I don't think it's going to be relevant in my case though as I'll be looking for either 2nd hand, or as much of a bargain as possible.

I've been looking at the Baratza Encore on Coffee Angel here. I'd assume this would be OK for espresso? I'd still be looking for something 2nd hand, but is this the very lowest on the scale worth considering for new grinders?

adrian522

That grinder seems to be more aimed at Filter coffee than espresso.

"Baratza's new Encore will deliver a fantastic grind for drip / manual brew methods."

The Virtuoso is probably a better bet if you can stretch that far.

Bawnmore

Just a quick update - scales I picked up only measures in grams so looks like I'm waiting it out for the dealextreme scales. Tested with 18g of coffee and tamped firm but not as hard as i could. Result was 28g of crema-less espresso in about 11-12 seconds. Since it's so far off, I think I'll be safe to increase in increments of 1g until I'm getting shots between 22-28 seconds.

Is there anything else that i should be trying given it's so far off the 22 second mark? Should I be looking into the OPV mod maybe?

adrian522

You could try tamping a little more firmly. I'm guessing about 19 or 20 grams is about all you'll fit in that basket.

Bawnmore

Another shot this morning, this time with 19g.

Changes
- tamped a bit harder, probably as hard as I could with the plastic tamper.
- 19g of coffee.
- Let machine heat up for 20 mins instead of 5/6 to see if there was a difference.

Very little difference unfortunately. Had a fuller crema, but still pulled 28g of espresso in 11-12 seconds and tasted very bitter. Would I be right in saying that even if I was grounding fresh myself just before brewing it'd make little difference to the speed of flow? Could the fineness of the ground possibly make up 10 seconds?!

Clinker

Bawnmore wrote: »

Could the fineness of the ground possibly make up 10 seconds?!

Absolutely! Grind it fine enough and it won't flow at all!

Gran Hermano

My money is on the grind as the cause of your problem, it sounds like it is not a fine enough grind. A finer grind will slow down the flow. Playing with weights and tamping harder is secondary to getting the grind right - all the tamping and weighing wont help much if your grind is too coarse.

Sinfonia

Bawnmore wrote: »

Could the fineness of the ground possibly make up 10 seconds?!

Absolutely! On a stepped grinder, sometimes even one or two notches finer will completely choke the machine!

It really is a case that you need a grinder: when I started out, I bought the machine first (against advice) and when I got a grinder the difference was enormous - it was effectively a different drink. To be able to grind fresh beans on demand and adjust to just the right level of fineness is, it seems, crucial.

Also get a tamper as soon as possible: again, while it seems like a small thing, the difference between a heavy, well-fitting tamper and the plastic yoke is immediately noticeable.

As for the OPV mod, there's a good thread or two around here somewhere (and elsewhere), and it's actually pretty easy. I used the backflow method, because there was no way I could construct the pressure valve thing that other people use, and it worked fine (you'll need a blind basket or rubber backflush disc to do this, but you'll need one for cleaning the Classic anyway).
Couple of tips if you're doing it:
1) Get a guide and follow it to the letter.
2) The bit that you need to remove with a 17" socket wrench: USE a 17" socket wrench! Don't be tempted to use a pliers, monkey wrench etc., believe me, they just won't work. Socket wrenches seem to mostly be sold in full sets and are expensive, which is a pain; I was lucky enough to have an appropriate one in my car (for taking the bolts off the wheels), so maybe check around with friends etc. for one of those first. Considering you only need it the one time, it's better not to have to buy a socket wrench set.

On that, if the machine is 2nd hand it may need a good cleaning. The two major things are:
1) Descaling (for which you'll need descaling powder)
- How often you should do it depends on water hardness in your area. For Dublin every four months is best, but I don't know about Galway (although you can find out online about water hardness from whatever reservoir your water comes from). You mentioned buying in Dublin shops though, so maybe you're living here too?
2) Backflushing (for which you'll need backflushing powder and a blind basket/rubber backflush disc).
- This should be done every week or two.

You mentioned water temperature. That can get very in-depth and complicated, but a good thing to do when making a shot is as follows:
When the machine is up to temperature (after 10-20 mins), and the grounds are in the basket, tamped and ready to go, switch on the pump and run water through until the orange light goes off. Then lock and load the portafilter, and as soon as the orange light comes back on, hit the pump again. The idea being that the optimal temperature is reached the second the orange light comes on.

As for your sleep during this learning period (!), no harm in practicing with decaf, Nick's do a really nice one, in fact I think it's nicer than their standard espresso!

Bawnmore

Absolutely! Grind it fine enough and it won't flow at all!

My money is on the grind as the cause of your problem, it sounds like it is not a fine enough grind.

Absolutely! On a stepped grinder, sometimes even one or two notches finer will completely choke the machine!

So fineness of grind can majorly affect flow speed - loud and clear :pac:

As for the OPV mod, there's a good thread or two around here somewhere (and elsewhere), and it's actually pretty easy.

I'll look into this more once I've picked up a blind basket filter/rubber backflush disc. Out of interest - where should I be looking to pick up one of these? Locally or online? Will it be specific to the Gaggia or a generic part?

On that, if the machine is 2nd hand it may need a good cleaning.

I need to look into picking up cleaning/descaling supplies too. The guy I bought it off mentioned he had just descaled it, but I'd like to give it a good clean and descale to be sure. Same as above - should I be able to pick these up locally? Or would online be better? (I'm in Dublin too by the way - need to update location. So every 4 months it is then).

At least I know I'm going in the right direction. Hopefully I should have a good setup and things worked out in the next month or so.

Bawnmore

Anyone know anything about La Minerva coffee grinders? I'm in touch with a guy who has a job lot and is selling them individually. They're brand new, but I can't find much about them.

Ad is here and grinder is in the 1st picture. From a quick search, it looks like it's a C11 which can be seen here. Worth a shot or avoid?

adrian522

How much is he looking for? I'd certainly take a look first and make sure you can adjust the grind in small increments.

Seems pretty big and heavy for home use.

EDIT: Have you had any further thoughts on the Baratza grinders?

I think the Baratza Virtuoso would be ideal for you, though €200 may be a bit steep for you at the moment? If so maybe hold off until you can spend that amount as no point in buying a grinder that can't do the job properly.

Have a read of this from Reactor:

http://theotherblackstuff.ie/machines/baratza-grinders/

Bawnmore

adrian522 wrote: »

How much is he looking for? I'd certainly take a look first and make sure you can adjust the grind in small increments.

Seems pretty big and heavy for home use.

He's looking for €140. Says he has a pallet of them that he's trying to sell. There's a 1.5lb and 3lb grinder for €140 and €160 respectively. Can't find much on them though bar the link in my last post above.

EDIT: Have you had any further thoughts on the Baratza grinders?

I think the Baratza Virtuoso would be ideal for you, though €200 may be a bit steep for you at the moment? If so maybe hold off until you can spend that amount as no point in buying a grinder that can't do the job properly.

€200 is a little steep at the moment unfortunately, but might be worth biding my time. Had a good look around and can't find anything 2nd hand.

Have a read of this from Reactor:

http://theotherblackstuff.ie/machines/baratza-grinders/

Good read. Virtuoso seems the one to go for alright, but out of price range right now.

adrian522

Well my advice would be to hold out until you can get a grinder you are happy with.

You could even get hand grinder until you are in a position to get the one you want.

http://coffeeangel.com/product/hario-mini-mill-hand-grinder/

http://coffeeangel.com/product/hario-skerton-hand-grinder/

arabica69 should be able to advise you on which one is best if you send him a PM.

Bawnmore

Might go with a hand grinder for now until I can put aside enough for a proper grinder. Will shoot arabica69 a PM. Cheers.

Images of the La Minerva sent to me. I've uploaded to Imgur here in case anyone's seen one before. Looks a bit big for home use alright.

Bawnmore

So I picked up a Hario Mini Mill on arabica69's advice (thanks again!) and I must say I'm very impressed with it. It took a few tries before pulling an acceptable shot, but I think I've got it right finally.

Tried it 1st on the finest setting, but water couldn't get through the puck. Moved up 1 notch and same result. Tried up to 4 notches to see if any difference and espresso came through but still struggled and took maybe 40 seconds for 2oz espresso. Changed to 5 and it seems to be the most consistent - a little fast at about 18 seconds for 2oz. Might need to tamp harder.

Takes between 60 and 90 seconds to grind 18g of beans so not too long by any means. About half way through a bag of Nicks Sweet Espresso and will try 3FE for some Hasbean beans once finished.

Anyone else use the little Hario? Does it sound like the right number of clicks from finest above or a bit much? I would have assumed espresso would be closer to the finest the Mini Mill could grind.

adrian522

Bawnmore wrote: »

So I picked up a Hario Mini Mill on arabica69's advice (thanks again!) and I must say I'm very impressed with it. It took a few tries before pulling an acceptable shot, but I think I've got it right finally.

Tried it 1st on the finest setting, but water couldn't get through the puck. Moved up 1 notch and same result. Tried up to 4 notches to see if any difference and espresso came through but still struggled and took maybe 40 seconds for 2oz espresso. Changed to 5 and it seems to be the most consistent - a little fast at about 18 seconds for 2oz. Might need to tamp harder.

Takes between 60 and 90 seconds to grind 18g of beans so not too long by any means. About half way through a bag of Nicks Sweet Espresso and will try 3FE for some Hasbean beans once finished.

Anyone else use the little Hario? Does it sound like the right number of clicks from finest above or a bit much? I would have assumed espresso would be closer to the finest the Mini Mill could grind.

I think you'll find that different beans require different settings, and also the same beans will need require you to make slight adjustments over time.

Just keep making your shots and make adjustments to the grind or the dose(not both) where necessary.

Also try to weigh the output rather than measuring 2Oz.

For example measure 18g of beans, then produce 28g of coffee and see how long it takes.

Will your scales slide under the espresso cup while you are pulling your shot? If so this is a better way of measuring your output.

See here: marco.ie/uberproject/?p=602

Bawnmore

adrian522 wrote: »

I think you'll find that different beans require different settings, and also the same beans will need require you to make slight adjustments over time.

Just keep making your shots and make adjustments to the grind or the dose(not both) where necessary.

Makes sense - thanks.

Also try to weigh the output rather than measuring 2Oz.

For example measure 18g of beans, then produce 28g of coffee and see how long it takes.

Will your scales slide under the espresso cup while you are pulling your shot? If so this is a better way of measuring your output.

I'll see if I can give this a try. My scales at the moment might be a bit big to balance on the drip tray of the Gaggia, but I'm waiting on a smaller scales in the post that should be up to the job.

See here: marco.ie/uberproject/?p=602

Interesting post, thanks.

On a seperate note - where would be the best place to pick up a backflush disc? Locally or online?

adrian522

Can't help you there, mine came with the machine, I think hasbean have them if you can't find them locally.

rollout

adrian522 wrote: »

Also try to weigh the output rather than measuring 2Oz.

For example measure 18g of beans, then produce 28g of coffee and see how long it takes.

Is this the typical weight to weight of beans to coffee. On different fora and resources the consensus seems to be ~16g beans to 1.5-2 floz of espresso in 22-27 seconds.

Am I missing something because 28g of espresso would be less than 1 floz?

adrian522

Well I guess just experiment and see what works best.

I usually start with 18G and work from there.

28-30g of output would usually be around 1.5 - 2 Oz I think.

Obviously it varies depending on the coffee but I find this usually works fairly well.

rollout

I don't mean to nit pick, I'm just trying to learn to get the best shot i can.

But if 1 oz = 28-29 mls
1 ml of water = ~1 gramme

surely 28 g of output (comprising water and coffee solubles) would be less than 28-29 mls.

adrian522

Surely it will depend on the extraction and how much "coffee" is mixed into the water and how much it will weigh? It's not a hard and fast rule but typically the dose should be 65% of your espressos weight. So if you start with 18g you should be looking for around 28g of output.

Have a read here:

http://colinharmon.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/falling-in-love-with-espresso-1-55-times-over-again/

rollout

Thanks Adrian. I have read similar posts and articles on other sites too.

As a relative beginner my issue is that the ~1.6g:1g bean to output ratio produces a result that is around half the output of what the majority of guides, fora, instructions suggest.

One of the comments to Colin's article asks what happened to the double shot? This doesn't seem possible from the ratio above.

As i wrote, these posts are from a newcomer to this level of coffee detail, when you are working with fractions of grammes and ml's it is confusing to read such differing opinions.

adrian522

Well I'd suggest starting with 18g to 28g output in about 28 seconds (adjust your grind to achieve this.

Then taste the espresso and if an adjustment is needed work from there.

In coffee and especially in espresso there are no hard and fast rules, just go with whatever works best for you.