It's great to be unemployed...

Sin City

puffishoes wrote: »

It seems you have access to a PC and an Internet connection.

What else do you need?

do you know about FAS's online training? that's free? etc?

do you have any ideas besides wanting more money?

I have done fas courses and actually have a degree already so I dont think doing a fas course is going to upskill me enough

puffishoes

Sin City wrote: »

I have done fas courses and actually have a degree already so I dont think doing a fas course is going to upskill me enough

Ah, I see. no matter what gets typed, you have a ready made excuse.

so nothing can fix your situation but money?

or do you have any ideas yourself?

Rasheed

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

I'm picking up on your sentence "Now come here I'm not saying to send people out picking up dog ****e for 12 hours a day when they have a qualification."

You want to assign tasks to the unemployed. All of them fairly menial (which is why they're not getting done at present) but those from middle class backgrounds will get nicer jobs.

If I were unemployed I would not want to be paraded around like a criminal on a chain gang, doing menial tasks you would not do yourself, because you feel I need to earn my unemployment assistance, just so you can have that feeling that you wouldnt be having more fun if you were unemployed too.

I'm not even going to get into the examples of where this has been tried in the past.


Your posts reeks of it, whether you consciously realise it or not.

How does my post reek of it?? I don't care if you have a Phd or have just done the junior cert, everyone can be of use to their community, and just because you are not employed is no excuse to sit back and feel sorry for yourself. You are calling the tasks I suggested as menial, I completely disagree with you there. What's wrong with doing a bit of hard work work for the good of your community? What's wrong with helping your neighbour to bring home turf if you are over 'qualified'? I worked my arse off to get where I am in the job I'm in but I'm grateful every day and realise that it could be all gone tomorrow. If it does go, I will continue to work my arse off every day to better myself and my community.

Stabshauptmann

bbam wrote: »

But if you don't live in Dublin your €25 weekly travel is straight out the window

Nope. 25eur in petrol would get me 100km+ outside dublin.

I'm not sure who's car you do a bit of driving in but it wouldn't pay insurance for most young people never mind buy a car and tax it too.

Why would it need to?
I'm not encouraging you to go out and buy a car. If you didnt need one before becoming unemployed, you dont need one now!

And there is no public transport either so that's out the window.

What? 25eur will get you a rambler in dublin, or a lot of petrol if from a more rural area.

But dont just nit pick - elaborate with figures how much dole you think a single, under 25 needs

monkeypants

Rasheed wrote: »

I'm not saying take jobs off painters, that's ridiculous. I'm saying to improve your local community by doing jobs that community groups can't sfford to pay someone to do eg. Painting a community centre, planting flowers outside a church that kind of thing. Making your locality look inviting to outsiders, developing a sense of community and people working together for a common goal. There is also evidence that people can become withdrawn and depressed when out of work, makes sense, I'd be the same myself. So getting out, especially in the summer would give people a sense of usefulness and pride at helping themselves and others. I think it's win win, maybe I'm wrong.

It sounds like a good idea, but you need to be careful with the people who are to be involved. First, if you're making this work a condition of receiving the dole, then the work needs to be supervised and that costs money.

Second, if it is mandatory and all are included, then I wouldn't want to be around someone who has just been given a tool of some description and is looking for an excuse to get out of this scheme. He/she is going to either twat himself or someone else over the head with it or accidentally hit a passing car...more expense. If I was on a scheme with someone like that, I would be looking out of it for my safety.

Third, I'm assuming that there'll be some form of insurance provided for this work, which will cost.

Fourth, are you going to allow the womenfolk to plead the belly? It's rare to see a woman doing time for a crime, so I can't see this happening, there'll always be kids to look after or on the way. So it'll just be the menfolk out working.

Sin City

puffishoes wrote: »

Ah, I see. no matter what gets typed, you have a ready made excuse.

so nothing can fix your situation but money?

or do you have any ideas yourself?

Do I have any ideas to create a jobs boom?

If I did that I would be leading the country

Are you living in reality at all?

dasa29

Stabshauptmann

So some rough math on that with many assumptions, there's about a billion euro in savings.
88/188 * (20bn @ 20%) = 1.87bn. Rounding for assumptions to 1bn

not to blow your assumptions out of the water but while the welfare bill is 20bn, the total spent on the dole is at most only 5 bn.

So the sum should be 88/188*(5bn @ 20%)= 468m.

Stabshauptmann

Rasheed wrote: »

How does my post reek of it??

The suggestion that the unemployed dont know the meaning of a hard days work, and the suggestion that those with third level qualifications should be given better tasks under your system displays a clear opinion you have of the "type" of people who are unemployed.

just because you are not employed is no excuse to sit back and feel sorry for yourself.

Who are you referring to?
I'm arguing a position, that the SW system in this country is flawed and needs a change. The disincentives I have observed I have outlined, and my proposed changes too.

I am neither looking for work, nor do I feel sorry for myself.

You are calling the tasks I suggested as menial, I completely disagree with you there.

Painting walls, pulling weeds, cleaning up dog dirt, sweeping roads, cutting hedges, taxing people. Yes these are menial jobs.

https://www.google.ie/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=menial

What's wrong with doing a bit of hard work work for the good of your community?

Why should what has been determined as the basic rate needed to survive be denied to people unless they perform menial labour to satisfy the sadistic pleasures of the upper classes? Why is there a need to punish the unemployed for being unemployed?

What's wrong with helping your neighbour to bring home turf if you are over 'qualified'?

Oh, so you do see the unemployed as nothing more than free manual labour to be utilised for your personal benefit. Its your turf, you break your own back bringing it home. If you want help, employ someone to help you. There are lots of unemployed who will gladly work for money.

As I have already articulated, deploying the unemployed as free slave labour will not help them find gainful employment.

I worked my arse off to get where I am in the job I'm in but I'm grateful every day and realise that it could be all gone tomorrow. If it does go, I will continue to work my arse off every day to better myself and my community.

People might have different opinions on how best to better themselves. Its not for you to tell them.

For example. One thing repeatedly mentioned in this thread is maintaining local churches. I didnt want to go too far off topic, but I will not give my time and effort to helping institutions I detest.
I would not see it as bettering myself or my community.


One of my other big arguments is that I do not want to justify the 20bn SW bill by pointing to all the good community work we are getting as a quid pro quo. I want there to be a real effort to tackle unemployment not massage the figures, and if not, then I want a politician to make the bold move of addressing the unsustainable SW bill.

This country needs Jobs, and incentives to find work.
We do not need the people in jobs to feel smug, or look down on the unemployed.

Stabshauptmann

dasa29 wrote: »

Stabshauptmann


not to blow your assumptions out of the water but while the welfare bill is 20bn, the total spent on the dole is at most only 5 bn.

So the sum should be 88/188*(5bn @ 20%)= 468m.

Grand, I took the figure from another post. I did say "So some rough math on that with many assumptions"

Edit, the estimates for the 2012 budget
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Year 2008 2009 2010 2011
Job Seekers 2,088 3,730 4,094 3,918
Other SW 15,653 16,705 17,249 17,029
Health 15,356 15,470 14,777 13,901
Education 8,465 8,589 8,667 8,678
Justice 2,565 2,514 2,364 2,400
Other 9,256 8,711 7,114 7,145
Total Exp 53,383 55,719 54,265 53,071

Rasheed

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

The suggestion that the unemployed dont know the meaning of a hard days work, and the suggestion that those with third level qualifications should be given better tasks under your system displays a clear opinion you have of the "type" of people who are unemployed.


Who are you referring to?
I'm arguing a position, that the SW system in this country is flawed and needs a change. The disincentives I have observed I have outlined, and my proposed changes too.

I am neither looking for work, nor do I feel sorry for myself.



Painting walls, pulling weeds, cleaning up dog dirt, sweeping roads, cutting hedges, taxing people. Yes these are menial jobs.

https://www.google.ie/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=menial



Why should what has been determined as the basic rate needed to survive be denied to people unless they perform menial labour to satisfy the sadistic pleasures of the upper classes? Why is there a need to punish the unemployed for being unemployed?


Oh, so you do see the unemployed as nothing more than free manual labour to be utilised for your personal benefit. Its your turf, you break your own back bringing it home. If you want help, employ someone to help you. There are lots of unemployed who will gladly work for money.

As I have already articulated, deploying the unemployed as free slave labour will not help them find gainful employment.



People might have different opinions on how best to better themselves. Its not for you to tell them.

For example. One thing repeatedly mentioned in this thread is maintaining local churches. I didnt want to go too far off topic, but I will not give my time and effort to helping institutions I detest.
I would not see it as bettering myself or my community.


One of my other big arguments is that I do not want to justify the 20bn SW bill by pointing to all the good community work we are getting as a quid pro quo. I want there to be a real effort to tackle unemployment not massage the figures, and if not, then I want a politician to make the bold move of addressing the unsustainable SW bill.

This country needs Jobs, and incentives to find work.
We do not need the people in jobs to feel smug, or look down on the unemployed.

I'm not looking down on anyone, nor did I indicate that in any of my suggestions. I do not any any sadistic pleasure in watching people work. I am merely pointing out that the country in the ****ter and if everyone pulled together, did a small bit of work, it would become a nicer place to live, and give some people a sense of usefulness. It might not suit everybody, fair enough. If people want to sit on their arses day in, day out living off the state, that's a whole other issue that can only be addressed by the person themselves.
I also have stated previously that it doesn't matter what level of education the person had, many people from every situation finds themselves in an unemployment situation, but everybody can make this a nicer place to live, everybody is good at something and can help out a neighbour, not because they have to, but because it's a nice thing to do to give something back to the country that is supporting them.

Markcheese

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Markcheese wrote: »

Personaly I think everyone on welfare should be doing at least 20/25 hours education , voluntary work or a course...
We should have the cleanest roadsides , beaches , estates , most visited pensioners, public gardens [etc.]...

You are dead right, there is loads of those jobs that need to be done, cleaning graveyards, cutting hedges etc. That should whittle down people who genuinely want to work and those who just lazy.

Go jump in a lake. This is the type of ignorant twattle we get from our out of touch FG ministers.

A) Do you think doing menial labour for a slave wage* would restore the pride into a skilled professional with a young family who lost his job through no fault of his own?

So Pat, you used to be a IT Manager / Lawyer / Mechanical Engineer and now you scoop up my dogs ****. How the mighty have fallen, eh neighbour

I wouldnt ****ing do it.


Go look for work. It takes a lot of time and energy. Yet you want to facilitate this by taking up half someones week with manual labour :rolleyes:


*You propose say halving someone's dole unless they do 25hours work.
Thats 94euro for 25hours work, which is 3.75per hour. The minimum wage is €8.65.

Personaly I do one of those "menial" jobs that you seem to despise ... I don't see what's wrong with giving back to your community if your being helped by your community /society .
In terms of those with skills , find a way use them , architect , engineer , chef or soccer coach. If you need a skill or training then the course should be available and that's your 25 hours ... if you can't be arsed or are too busy to turn up , drop the dole.

Ps I'm guessing from yr last paragraph that you ain't no mathematician ....

Laminations

SW shouldn't be a long term prospect - it is mainly provided as a support while people find new employment or means of supporting themselves. It should only be given indefinitely to people who are not available for work (with specific circumstances). It should not be used to maintain mortgage payments or service personal debt. People in this situation (i.e. long term unemployed) need to realise that they cannot afford a house. In these cases the banks should move to a rent-back scheme so the bank takes ownership of the asset and your weekly payments are vastly reduced and become rent. Yes, it is not nice, but it is dealing with the reality that you have no source of income to pay for the nice things you want. This should only happen after an extended period without work (where you are available to work) even if it is not your fault but economic circumstance (i.e. no jobs to be had), the state should not be paying for private assets - rent supplements are the appropriate way to maintain people in accommodation.

We have a co-dependent relationship with the state, it fluctuates over our lifetime but the state provides services and opportunities for work (not the same as jobs) and we abide by laws, pay tax, are productive members of society and do our civic duties - this is the social contract.

If you are long term unemployed - whether it is dispositional laziness(a minority) or situational misfortune (the majority trying to survive through a recession) the balance in this codependent relationship starts to turn to the state providing for you and maintaining you. The state should just be there to support you and help you provide for yourself. The long term unemployed run the risk of becoming welfare dependent and disillusioned.

To re-balance the relationship I don't think it is too much to ask people to increase their civic responsibilities by means of voluntary work.

As for taking jobs from painters etc. these jobs do not exist - it is not like jobsbridge - the state will not be employing a grass verge maintenance team any time soon. Just as you would help your parents out any way you could because you value that relationship and see it as reciprocating and mutually beneficial (I'm sure you would volunteer to clear your mothers garden rather than warn about the loss of work for the landscaping industry) so too should you view your relationship with the state - especially if they are supporting you in a time of difficulty. Paying in stamps gets you your 2 year window of support and then after that you do something for the state. Helping others or improving your neighbourhood shouldn't be viewed as degrading or embarrassing, it should be seen as you fulfilling your social contract with the state.

BFDCH.

Sin City wrote: »

Can I move me and my family into yours then?

you could until a while ago, I've been waiting for a stranger from the interweb to present me with this opportunity, unfortunately for us both I've sold it at a loss and now live somewhere I can afford.

edit- BTW I have no doubt that you do not want to be, or chose to be on the Dole.

Delancey

I was thinking only the other day we were overdue a Welfare-Receipient Bashing Thread.....

Seriously though , it is alas inevitable that in any society that operates a financial ' safety net ' that there will be those that abuse it - we in Ireland are no different from any other country in that respect.

We need to keep in mind that at the height of the boom there were 100,000 claiming the dole and quite frankly those claims should have been rigorously investigated at the time given the labour shortage being reported.
Fast forward to the present depths of our downturn and over 400,000 are signing on - 300,000 + people did not one day decide to stay in bed and sponge off the state - they lost their jobs and as the OP mentions 200+ job applications resulted in just 2 interviews.
There exists an unemployment crisis and while there is a need for reform it would be wise to bear in mind that the system exists for all - the person working today , paying their taxes and mortgage and bitching on boards.ie about ' spongers ' could well be the person going cap in hand to the dole office tomorrow.

BFDCH.

bbam wrote: »

But if you don't live in Dublin your €25 weekly travel is straight out the window. I'm not sure who's car you do a bit of driving in but it wouldn't pay insurance for most young people never mind buy a car and tax it too.
And there is no public transport either so that's out the window.

so don't travel if you can't afford it, or cyle, you can do a fair distance in 30 mins to an hour on the bike. Fckin hell.

BFDCH.

monkeypants wrote: »

It sounds like a good idea, but you need to be careful with the people who are to be involved. First, if you're making this work a condition of receiving the dole, then the work needs to be supervised and that costs money.

Second, if it is mandatory and all are included, then I wouldn't want to be around someone who has just been given a tool of some description and is looking for an excuse to get out of this scheme. He/she is going to either twat himself or someone else over the head with it or accidentally hit a passing car...more expense. If I was on a scheme with someone like that, I would be looking out of it for my safety.

Third, I'm assuming that there'll be some form of insurance provided for this work, which will cost.

Fourth, are you going to allow the womenfolk to plead the belly? It's rare to see a woman doing time for a crime, so I can't see this happening, there'll always be kids to look after or on the way. So it'll just be the menfolk out working.

You could always incentivise people to do the work, have a lower Dole for people who do not have any interest in getting off it and a higher amount for those interested in doing things to improve the country.

gerryo777

old hippy wrote: »

What you need is switch to a quasi stasi style state, encourage a culture of grassing on suspected cheats, carrying out surveillance etc. Think of all those jobs that could be created as professional informers. I'm pretty sure the mentality for such an undertaking is already there.

If going by the amount of 'fraud' reports received by the Dept of Social Protection last year, then I think your right.
The majority of them were proven to be false.

Anna Nicole

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

The suggestion that the unemployed dont know the meaning of a hard days work, and the suggestion that those with third level qualifications should be given better tasks under your system displays a clear opinion you have of the "type" of people who are unemployed.


Who are you referring to?
I'm arguing a position, that the SW system in this country is flawed and needs a change. The disincentives I have observed I have outlined, and my proposed changes too.

I am neither looking for work, nor do I feel sorry for myself.



Painting walls, pulling weeds, cleaning up dog dirt, sweeping roads, cutting hedges, taxing people. Yes these are menial jobs.

https://www.google.ie/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=2&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=menial



Why should what has been determined as the basic rate needed to survive be denied to people unless they perform menial labour to satisfy the sadistic pleasures of the upper classes? Why is there a need to punish the unemployed for being unemployed?


Oh, so you do see the unemployed as nothing more than free manual labour to be utilised for your personal benefit. Its your turf, you break your own back bringing it home. If you want help, employ someone to help you. There are lots of unemployed who will gladly work for money.

As I have already articulated, deploying the unemployed as free slave labour will not help them find gainful employment.



People might have different opinions on how best to better themselves. Its not for you to tell them.

For example. One thing repeatedly mentioned in this thread is maintaining local churches. I didnt want to go too far off topic, but I will not give my time and effort to helping institutions I detest.
I would not see it as bettering myself or my community.


One of my other big arguments is that I do not want to justify the 20bn SW bill by pointing to all the good community work we are getting as a quid pro quo. I want there to be a real effort to tackle unemployment not massage the figures, and if not, then I want a politician to make the bold move of addressing the unsustainable SW bill.

This country needs Jobs, and incentives to find work.
We do not need the people in jobs to feel smug, or look down on the unemployed.

You are not looking for work, so I'm assuming you don't need to work or don't want to work? Can I ask why?

Laminations

Delancey wrote: »

the person working today , paying their taxes and mortgage and bitching on boards.ie about ' spongers ' could well be the person going cap in hand to the dole office tomorrow.

I don't view welfare recipients as spongers or with their cap in hand. There is a minority that abuse the system - fraud is a separate matter. And there is the majority that need the support because they are between jobs (otherwise known as unemployed). No doubt this majority will return to work and paying into the system. The question I'm asking is how long should welfare pay you the same amount if you are unemployed? Two years I think is enough breathing space, I'd be happy even if it was longer but there needs to be a cut off. This cut off is implemented in other countries where welfare is reduced gradually after a certain time. Instead, the proposal here is that welfare become contingent on some voluntary work after a certain time.

It is not cap in hand. Practically everyone receiving the support has paid into the system, has paid their stamps.and deserve the support - it IS an entitlement. But it should not be an indefinite entitlement, thats the trap of welfare dependency.

PS I realise that the work wouldn't be truly 'voluntary'

murphaph

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

This country needs Jobs, and incentives to find work.
We do not need the people in jobs to feel smug, or look down on the unemployed.

I don't look down on the people here in Germany working for their (much more meagre) benefits. You see them assisting the local council with keeping the parks in order, hedges trimmed etc.

They do it to make sure nobody gets too comfortable on welfare. I respect the people who do it a lot more than the folks who opt-out and are cut off completely and who then proceed to beg for money.

the groutch

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Here's my estimate of a fair weekly budget of someone under 25.

• Transport 25eur (Thats what I spend on the odd bit of driving, occasional bus, mostly I cycle -alternatively for Dubs, a Rambler 5 Day Adult is €23.00).
• Mobile phone 5eur (20eur monthly deal)
• Food 50eur (to stock my fridge with healthy food for 3 meals a day)
• Personal 40eur (The dole isnt a prison sentence. 40eur would cover the occasion clothes purchase, xbox game, cinema, a nice meal, someone's birthday, a few pints)

SO thats 120eur before you factor in rent and bills.

so your saying that booze, trips to the cinema, mobile phone and xbox games all come before rent & bills?
no wonder the country is so effed up, if people priotise like that.

it's food > rent > bills, then clothing & transport, THEN the luxuries.

Markcheese

monkeypants wrote: »

Rasheed wrote: »

I'm not saying take jobs off painters, that's ridiculous. I'm saying to improve your local community by doing jobs that community groups can't sfford to pay someone to do eg. Painting a community centre, planting flowers outside a church that kind of thing. Making your locality look inviting to outsiders, developing a sense of community and people working together for a common goal. There is also evidence that people can become withdrawn and depressed when out of work, makes sense, I'd be the same myself. So getting out, especially in the summer would give people a sense of usefulness and pride at helping themselves and others. I think it's win win, maybe I'm wrong.

It sounds like a good idea, but you need to be careful with the people who are to be involved. First, if you're making this work a condition of receiving the dole, then the work needs to be supervised and that costs money.

Second, if it is mandatory and all are included, then I wouldn't want to be around someone who has just been given a tool of some description and is looking for an excuse to get out of this scheme. He/she is going to either twat himself or someone else over the head with it or accidentally hit a passing car...more expense. If I was on a scheme with someone like that, I would be looking out of it for my safety.

Third, I'm assuming that there'll be some form of insurance provided for this work, which will cost.

Fourth, are you going to allow the womenfolk to plead the belly? It's rare to see a woman doing time for a crime, so I can't see this happening, there'll always be kids to look after or on the way. So it'll just be the menfolk out working.

All valid points ,
Last one first... Single parents aren't on job seekers rule them out ( I think single parents allowance should finish when kids are in school but then I am a right wing facist b..t..rd )
Secondly it wouldn't be mandatory it'd be voluntary ( just expensive to opt out of )

As education would be a big part of the scheme if you weren't trained in doing something , a short training course would be available or mandatory ...
I don't know who'd keep score of people turning up or not , I suppose each voluntary group would need some kind of co-ordinator , hopefully because it'd be voluntary groups people would head into things they have an interest in, or work with friends/ neighbours they get on with,there wouldn't have to be much score keeping .....
I suppose government / county council staff would be there more as facilitators, providers of basic equipment like they are with tidy towns groups ...

Haven't a clue about insurance, but would hope that as everybody is responsible for them selves and it's all done voluntarily it wouldn't be necessary .... But I'm probably wrong ....

jiggawigga

A friend of my sister recently got nabbed for social welfare fraud. She's a prime example of a lazy **** milking the system as much as possible - she also happens to be on holidays in France at the minute. The penalty was zip. She was told to stop basically and she lost a few entitlements. Nothing said about the vast amounts of fraud she had carried out until that date.

She should be put on a sliding scale of welfare until it reaches barely enough to pay for rice and water if you ask me.

Again it's down to the idiots we have in government.

Stabshauptmann

Markcheese wrote: »

"Ps I'm guessing from yr last paragraph that you ain't no mathematician ...."

Firstly, when making ad hominem attacks be sure to be flawless yourself.

Personally I do one of those "menial" jobs that you seem to despise ... I don't see what's wrong with giving back to your community if you're being helped by your community /society_.
In terms of those with skills , find a way use them , architect , engineer , chef or soccer coach. If you need a skill or training then the course should be available and that's your 25 hours ... if you can't be arsed or are too busy to turn up , drop the dole.

Secondly, shouting "WRONG" is not a very effective way at correcting a mistake.

Do please point me in the correct direction.

Stabshauptmann

jiggawigga wrote: »

A friend of my sister recently got nabbed for social welfare fraud. She's a prime example of a lazy **** milking the system as much as possible - she also happens to be on holidays in France at the minute. The penalty was zip. She was told to stop basically and she lost a few entitlements. Nothing said about the vast amounts of fraud she had carried out until that date.

She should be put on a sliding scale of welfare until it reaches barely enough to pay for rice and water if you ask me.

Again it's down to the idiots we have in government.

Shocking, there needs to be real reform. Working and claiming, and claiming while abroad (I assume someone else signed on for her) should be easier to catch and carry stronger punishments.

christmas2012

free labour sounds great in theory but the reality is it occupies hogs up,what could be a paid job advertised,so before you sign up think about that...the more popular you make these schemes the more unemployment they create,they suck what could be a paid job advertised right out of the community..

Stabshauptmann

the groutch wrote: »

so your saying that booze, trips to the cinema, mobile phone and xbox games all come before rent & bills?
no wonder the country is so effed up, if people priotise like that.

it's food > rent > bills, then clothing & transport, THEN the luxuries.

Nope, not what I said. Do try and read a post fully. If you need to, take the time to read it again.

The post was an argument for deducting the money one would need for rent and bills from people who are or IMO should be living at home, while still allowing them to maintain a comfortable life (if you want to argue whether or not they should be able to have creature comforts thats another question).

But please, don't let what I actually wrote distract you from pontificating.

Stabshauptmann

Anna Nicole wrote: »

You are not looking for work, so I'm assuming you don't need to work or don't want to work? Can I ask why?

You are confused because you think only someone on SW would be voicing a contrary opinion to yours.

I said I am not looking for work. What else might that imply...

Without re reading all my posts, it's possible I have written too often using first and second person pronouns, when I should have said "one". It irks me to be honest when one writes like that, so I refrain from it. For my part in the confusion, I apologise.

This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

Anyway.

Here's the thing.

The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock. We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc. And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.

Stabshauptmann

murphaph wrote: »

I don't look down on the people here in Germany working for their (much more meagre) benefits. You see them assisting the local council with keeping the parks in order, hedges trimmed etc.

They do it to make sure nobody gets too comfortable on welfare. I respect the people who do it a lot more than the folks who opt-out and are cut off completely and who then proceed to beg for money.

I am not familiar on any level with the German SW system, I cannot comment on it.
I have made my suggestions for how to improve Ireland's flawed system, and countered other people's suggestions.

If you were to make some suggestions based on the German system, I would be eager to digest and discuss them.

Laminations

christmas2012 wrote: »

free labour sounds great in theory but the reality is it occupies hogs up,what could be a paid job advertised,so before you sign up think about that...the more popular you make these schemes the more unemployment they create,they suck what could be a paid job advertised right out of the community..

If your mother asked you to re-wire a plug would you reply 'oh mam that'd put electricians out of business, ring one of them'. Or if she asked you to paint the shed 'oh mam, that'd put painters out of work, ring one of them'. Or mow the lawn 'oh mam, that'd put those kids who go door to door with a mower out of work, ring one of them'. Why not?

Because its your mother? Well this is your country asking. Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. After 2 years of the state supports giving one day a week isn't slave labour. And when was the last time you saw a job advertised like 'hedge trimmer wanted for public spaces. One day a week'. Or 'shop assistant wanted for Oxfam. One day a week, voluntary basis'. Maybe under the 'volunteer' section.

It'd kill off real jobs as much as the tidy towns project does.

fasttalkerchat

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

Anyway.

Here's the thing.

The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock. We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc. And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.

Not sure if I agree with that. If a stay at home mum is abandoned by her husband its unfair that she should have to leave he kids with a stranger when previously she made sacrifices to be with her kids 24/7.

Stabshauptmann

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is all over the place with attacks left right and centre...

Anyway.

Here's the thing.

The country's broke. WE HAVE NO MONEY

Agreed!

This aspect of "free labour taking up a job that could be advertised" is an absolute load of poppycock.

Your opinion is contrary to economists, who base their arguments off both theory and historic precedence.

There is an argument for donating time to the type of charitable work that would otherwise go undone, but street cleaning is not one such job.

We can't afford it. Suck it up and get someone WHO IS ALREADY GETTING PAID and get them to do it. I am talking graffitti cleaning, civic duties etc....

I don't care if you were a MD of a company. You don't have a job now and are bleeding off the state. You can clean the roads like everyone else.

And here it is, its not because the work needs to be done. No, the part you shouted was that that there are people out there with free money. Spongers. "bleeding off the state".

And single parents should not be exempt. State creches staffed by volunteers (properly supervised too).

Oh my. What a terrible idea. Expensive, dangerous, and shows such a low regard for the skills needed for child care.

Stabshauptmann

Laminations wrote: »

It'd kill off real jobs as much as the tidy towns project does.

That depends on the scale, and the types of jobs.
What has been suggested in this thread by many is real work.

FloatingVoter

Perhaps if we let the slavs / jews / blacks / homosexuals / gypsies do all the dirty work, the employed people would feel better. Distant echoes there.
Or reverse course, how many of you are actually qualified or more importantly capable of doing the jobs you are in ?
Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
Never confuse employment with work.
Wanting to be considered superior to others is usually the first sign of the inept.

I'll take the ban now.

bbam

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Nope. 25eur in petrol would get me 100km+ outside dublin.



Why would it need to?
I'm not encouraging you to go out and buy a car. If you didnt need one before becoming unemployed, you dont need one now!


What? 25eur will get you a rambler in dublin, or a lot of petrol if from a more rural area.

But dont just nit pick - elaborate with figures how much dole you think a single, under 25 needs

I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..

€25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...

Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them.. I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...

fasttalkerchat

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Perhaps if we let the slavs / jews / blacks / homosexuals / gypsies do all the dirty work, the employed people would feel better. Distant echoes there.
Or reverse course, how many of you are actually qualified or more importantly capable of doing the jobs you are in ?
Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
Never confuse employment with work.
Wanting to be considered superior to others is usually the first sign of the inept.

I'll take the ban now.

Knuckle draggers providing careers advice? That's one way to solve unemployment I suppose...

gerryo777

Sin City wrote: »

garda vetting was for working with the.vulnerable which you.mentioned.in your.previous.post .

paint av wall ?

take.jobs off painters ?

Can you imagine the noise from the SIPTU beards if the local council started getting people on the dole to paint walls/clean the streets etc etc?

fasttalkerchat

bbam wrote: »

I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..

€25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...

Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them.. I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...

I think I mentioned this on boards before:
In my opinion benefits should be an absolute minimum needed to live. It is for people unwilling to work or who have refused to turn up for 5 interviews. Job seekers allowance should be expenses based i.e. you have a bus card to get to interviews, you can claim back fuel used to drive to businesses to hand out CV's. Anything else that helps you get a job, even a car loan if you need your own vehicle for a job.

gerryo777

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Do you go to work on a Monday morning hoping you won't be found out by Friday evening ?
Never confuse employment with work.

You've just described the average PS worker.;)

Laminations

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

That depends on the scale, and the types of jobs.
What has been suggested in this thread by many is real work.

Real work that isn't getting done because the state has no money so jobs would never materialise. Such a plan during affluent times could be criticised but even then if it is community based charity style tidy towns stuff I don't think people should be paid for much of that. Maintenance, upkeep, cleanliness, sports program's, helping the elderly, providing assistance at events. And 20 weeks for Garda clearance which would rule people out of certain projects ain't much considering the wait time for the dole - and the state would have 2 years to get the vetting done as there'd be a grace period of support sans conditions

secretambition

While I agree with most of what is said in the OP, I think when making the "why am I bothering to go to work when I would be better off on the dole?" argument, it is only fair to admit that you care about what your CV looks like because you see yourself as someone with prospects in the future when things pick up. Working a low-paid job that you're overqualified for which is not immediately financially rewarding relative to social welfare, is not done purely because of work ethic or wanting to contribute to society although these things might be part of the reason. There is also the self-interest of not wanting a gap on your CV that is dangerously difficult to explain.

This brings me onto my second point. Some people have resigned themselves to the fact that they will never have prospects due to lack of qualfiications or other personal circumstances. For them, benefits seem like the best option because they think they will never earn much in excess of this for their 35 hour week. If these people were forced to work for social welfare, yes that would take some jobs out of the private sector, but I do not believe that they would all become permanent employees whose wages would be paid by the state forever. If a person has to work 35 hours a week whether they like it or not, be it for a private employer or the state, there is an incentive to better themselves so that they can earn as much as possible for that 35 hours. I think many would upskill and move out of the system quickly.

FloatingVoter

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Knuckle draggers providing careers advice? That's one way to solve unemployment I suppose...

Its a pity we don't have sarcasm tags for the slow of brain who can't read a full post.

washman3

woodoo wrote: »

Welfare bill is €20 billion per year at present. It needs to be cut drastically. Welfare cheats need to be jailed too.

Exactly. Jail them all. Great idea. Just as we did with the bankers,speculators,corrupt politicans and regulator that brought the country to its knees. :mad:

Stabshauptmann

bbam wrote: »

I'm not nit picking, I'm pointing out a major flaw or oversight in your suggestion...
I'm not proposing a solution, just that your initial budget is flawed and needs some rethinking or relabelling...

Wait sorry, wheres your suggested budget?
You are just nit picking, because you haven't offered your own alternative.

You should have clarified that your €25 was what a person under 25 would need for transport, provided they live in a major urban centre..

Nope, I am sticking with what I said. €25, either get a bus ticket if in dublin or petrol if you are from an area with no public transport. That was quite clear.

€25 of petrol does get you a fair distance, in what though ?? Sure if you mammy gives you unlimited use of her car but not everyone has that luxury...

What were you driving before being unemployed? Why do you need a car now, if you didn't when working?

Its a fact that young peopel in rural areas need to get access to a car in order to have any chance of getting work, its just the way it is.. Some can move to cities and towns but not every one of them..

Do they need their own car to find a job?
I would say no.

Theres the internet, phone, post. Theres getting lifts when needed off friends, family, neighbours.
Theres also walking and cycling. I would consider 20km a day to be a normal cycle.

GarIT

I don't think there should be dole at all, the government should provide minimum wage jobs for every person that wants one, you could cap it at €200 per week and it could actually save money. There's plenty of litter that could be picked up, parks cleaned, things repaired.

I also think state pensions should be done away with. You save for retirement when you are young and if you didn't save you shouldn't be allowed retire.

Stabshauptmann

secretambition wrote: »

While I agree with most of what is said in the OP, I think when making the "why am I bothering to go to work when I would be better off on the dole?" argument, it is only fair to admit that you care about what your CV looks like because you see yourself as someone with prospects in the future when things pick up. Working a low-paid job that you're overqualified for which is not immediately financially rewarding relative to social welfare, is not done purely because of work ethic or wanting to contribute to society although these things might be part of the reason. There is also the self-interest of not wanting a gap on your CV that is dangerously difficult to explain.

This brings me onto my second point. Some people have resigned themselves to the fact that they will never have prospects due to lack of qualfiications or other personal circumstances. For them, benefits seem like the best option because they think they will never earn much in excess of this for their 35 hour week. If these people were forced to work for social welfare, yes that would take some jobs out of the private sector, but I do not believe that they would all become permanent employees whose wages would be paid by the state forever. If a person has to work 35 hours a week whether they like it or not, be it for a private employer or the state, there is an incentive to better themselves so that they can earn as much as possible for that 35 hours. I think many would upskill and move out of the system quickly.

Thats a very nice argument. But it still based on the too-oft espoused view on this thread that people are only on SW because they are lazy.

Stabshauptmann

GarIT wrote: »

... builders that could be helped, there would be plenty of companies that would go halves with the government on a part time employee.

Real jobs, taken away from qualified people

secretambition

I think that there sould be 35 hours work a week in order to get 200 euro benefits. A person who has to either do that or go out and find their own minimum wage job for 8.65 X 35 = 302.75, but is working 35 hours regardless, is quickly going to make every effort to get themselves out of the system.

Incidentally, I would retain a lot of the benefits in kind that people on social welfare get in relation to health, education etc. I wouldn't have anyone on welfare struggling to survive, but I would definitely make sure it isn't fun.

GarIT

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Real jobs, taken away from qualified people

I suppose there is that but you could still do the rest, there are plenty of places in ireland that are never looked after.