Lovely dogs very aggressive on lead

Beatles

Hi all, I'm a long-time lurker but this is my first post. I have two lovely dogs: a border collie whom we received from a farmer when she wouldn't work any more after having pups, and a jack russel-type whom we rescued from death row at a dog pound. They're both about 5 years old, we think.
Anyway, they get on great together and get on great with humans...but when we meet other dogs they sometimes go ballistic. They're just unpredictable - usually when they're on the leads they pull and strain and howl and bark to get at the other dog. On one occasion the collie broke her lead to attack another dog.
Usually when they are walking free of leads and they meet other dogs, they just sniff each other's bums and walk off with no problems. But not always, they have run at other dogs too, looking for a fight.
My question is this: in order to socialise and train these dogs, is it just a case of biting the bullet and finding the money to bring them to a trainer? Or can anyone recommend a book that will help us to train them, or some training that we can do ourselves (purely from a financial point of view, I've nothing against going to a trainer).
Any help or advice would be much appreciated - at the moment I am going miles to find isolated spots to walk them where we won't meet another dog. Also, do you think these dogs are too old to train properly?
Thanks

DBB

Hi Beatles,
Yay! Your first post!
First of all, good on you for taking on these two dogs from less than desirable backgrounds. They're not too old, no dog ever is until they become senile, BUT, you are dealing with well-entrenched behaviour which they have to "un-learn" whilst learning new ways to behave! So, it's more work and a bit harder with an older dog, but no reason why they can't be rewired!
Now, I'll be honest, with this particular problem it is really hard to beat having a good, qualified behaviourist standing by you to teach you what to do and when to do it. First of all, you will learn why your dogs are behaving like this (most likely fear-based, possibly due to insufficient socialisation, maybe some bad experiences to throw into the mix), and I think once an owner realises why their dogs are doing what they do, it's almost half the battle won.
But a good behvaiourist will also give you the tools you need to tackle this problem, and hold your hand whilst you work away on the problem. It can be really difficult to deal with a complex problem like this, with two dogs let alone with one dog, by just reading books etc.
Where are you based? Ireland has its fair share of poor trainers and so-called behaviourists who need to be avoided due to their use of questionable training techniques, but there are also some excellent and properly qualified behaviourists out there, so I'd hope we can find one in your area. It doesn't necessarily have to be a terribly expensive thing to do either, depending on who you go to. And on the off-chance your dogs are insured with Allianz, they cover behavioural consultations with a (very) few behaviourists.

Beatles

Hi DBB, thank you for your swift reply! I've enquired from my vet and got two recommendations for trainers, I spoke to one of them and she sounds like she knows what she is talking about, will come on a house visit to assess the problem...but it is quite expensive.
On the other hand, I agree with your points about the advantages of a trainer over a book.
Will have to have a chat with 'himself' and make a decision one way or another. We're in Kildare, by the way.

DBB

Hi beatles,
I have PM'd you with some, hopefully, reasonably priced suggestions!
As a general caveat to people reading, don't take it as gospel that your vet knows any more about the abilities or qualifications of local trainers and behaviourists than you do! Ask your vet has s/he had personal recommendations of them, to describe what sort of approach to training the trainer/behaviourist uses, and to tell you what professional bodies the trainer/behaviourist belongs to. If s/he doesn't know the answers to any of these questions, then he doesn't know much about the trainer in question!:)

loverslane

Same problem with one of our rescues too. We think he was probably used in dog fights at some point. He is only ever aggressive towards male dogs never female. He is a terrier X and doesn't matter how big another dog is he will try his luck. He looks so sweet and innocent and he is 99% of the time just not around other male dogs.

Beatles

DBB, thanks for your PM, I've been very busy so have done nothing about this yet! I will take your advice though and plan to get in touch with that lady during the week. I will keep you posted!

Graces7

Changing behaviour takes time. When we took in collie, so abused, it took months to get her to go through a door properly; we had the in/out/in/out dance as she was terrified of being locked in and left alone as she had been every night of her five years.

Thatwas around six years ago now.

Not a problem now and nor are most of her other problems. It took a lot of patience and time but that was fine.

Stopping her aggression to our cats was something we have decided to live with and so have the cats...She uses the door, they use the window.;)

Knowing what she had been though helped greatly.

Qualitymark

You might try a lead called Gentle Walker (I got it in Breffni House Pets in Windy Arbour, Dublin) - I think this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/cart/view-upsell.html?ie=UTF8&HUCT=1&newItems=C2USBP6QMHW2CR%2C1

is the same thing. It's a loose collar with two big rings at the back of the neck and two small rings at the front.

You have a Y-shaped lead as well; you thread the two ends (the top of the Y) through the rings at the back of the neck and behind the front legs, and attach them at the rings at the front of the neck.

Now, when the dog pulls, instead of having its neck dangerously compressed, choking it, it tightens the harness around the shoulders. This is very calming for dogs (you can get a thing called a ThunderShirt that works on the same principle, for calming dogs frightened by gunshots or thunder or fireworks)>

I found this calmed my collie cross completely - it used to be like taking a spring-loaded rocket for a walk before I used it.

Another tip is to carry treats, and when you see another dog in the distance, *but before your dog becomes alert and growly*, give a treat. The effect of this is much like handing someone a €20 note every time their hated neighbour appears; after a while they won't hate the neighbour so much!