On the basis of this tournament, who would you choose?

Renn

I think what's bizarre is the lack of people questioning Given's inclusion in the first team, based on his preparation and actual fitness going in to the tournament. Really thought more would have bee made of this since it was pretty apparent throughout the three games that he's way off the pace.

RGDATA!

why would I choose between Given/Westwood on the basis of this tournament?

Samich

If ye read the post and not just the poll question you would see I'm asking when it's all put together, including this tournament and the potential of Westwood, who should be in goal.

Hardly that hard to understand the OP.

wonderfullife

lads this is ridiculous.

Shay is only just gone 36. Modern keepers with how they look after themselves, he's got another 4 or 5 years in him. He's been a top class goalie for a long time now and that won't change based on a sub-par tournament coming off the back of an injury.

Westwood has plenty of time on his side, he's only 27 and most goalies don't hit their peaks until their early 30's. He's the long term future but Shay is our number 1.

Jesus Wept

Helix wrote: »

given said he was 10% fit

When did he say that?
And if so, why the **** did he play.

adox

Samich wrote: »

If ye read the post and not just the poll question you would see I'm asking when it's all put together, including this tournament and the potential of Westwood, who should be in goal.

Hardly that hard to understand the OP.

What ever way you read it or what ever you think you may have said, it's a loaded question.

Samich

adox wrote: »

What ever way you read it or what ever you think you may have said, it's a loaded question.

Excuse. The majority agree with me, and the minority agree with you.

RGDATA!

Samich wrote: »

If ye read the post and not just the poll question you would see I'm asking when it's all put together, including this tournament and the potential of Westwood, who should be in goal.

Hardly that hard to understand the OP.

"On the basis of this tournament and on the potential and ability of Kieran Westwood, who would be the better choice to play in goal?"

again, I wouldn't choose based on this tournament, nor solely on the basis of Kieran Westwood's ability and potential. I would consider Given's ability and experience, which has not dissolved into nothing because of three bad games, where he has been made something of a scapegoat.
If Given starts the season fit and Villa's #1, then I'd stick with him personally. Westwood looks the next in line and needs games, we don't need another Dean Kiely situation. But no need to cast Given aside. I hope he doesn't retire. 36 is not old for a keeper. He's not a bad keeper because of 3 games. He deserves a bit more respect imo.

edit: didn't vote the poll because it's a loaded question

noodler

Soups123 wrote: »

Has he not said about 15 times Given > Westwood. Simples, regardless of club games played

St Ledger plays because he to is > 'insert any other option'

I have but he continues to misrepresent people.

It serves his purpose.

noodler

I am greatly encouraged to see some of the posts but I am still surprised at the poll.

Perhaps it is easier to vote in a poll in ager than make a reasoned argument for Westwood's inclusion at Given's expense?

Anyway, Given will probably retire anyway.

Samich

wonderfullife wrote: »

lads this is ridiculous.

Shay is only just gone 36. Modern keepers with how they look after themselves, he's got another 4 or 5 years in him. He's been a top class goalie for a long time now and that won't change based on a sub-par tournament coming off the back of an injury.

Westwood has plenty of time on his side, he's only 27 and most goalies don't hit their peaks until their early 30's. He's the long term future but Shay is our number 1.

36 now, and 38 at next WC.

Shay was at an advantage straight away as he's so small and crap at crosses.

Who are the best 38 year old goalies around?

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Has he not said about 15 times Given > Westwood. Simples, regardless of club games played

St Ledger plays because he to is > 'insert any other option'

Westwood is better than Given now.

And a fella who can't get into a championship side is better than a fella who can get into a PL side?

RGDATA!

Samich wrote: »

36 now, and 38 at next WC.

Shay was at an advantage straight away as he's so small and crap at crosses.

Who are the best 38 year old goalies around?

Off the top of my head Van der Saar played till 40 or almost and finished at the top. Brad Friedel is 41. Schwarzer is over 38 i think

edit: if either of the above were irish, age wouldn't be an issue if it was a choice between them and westwood right now for this tournament.

noodler

Samich wrote: »

36 now, and 38 at next WC.

Shay was at an advantage straight away as he's so small and crap at crosses.

Who are the best 38 year old goalies around?

The ones who are still playing regular premiership football and have shown time and time again their class at international level.

Alot could change between now and the World Cup anyway. Westwood could start playing club football or another keeper could come into the fray.

The question is who is better now and it is fairly obvious.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

adox wrote: »

What ever way you read it or what ever you think you may have said, it's a loaded question.

Excuse. The majority agree with me, and the minority agree with you.

I agree with you in how u set the question, as he said its a loaded question, u've asked it in a way to suit urself. Based on this tournament Given is ****, but our future team selection shouldn't be based on this tournament or we'd have 10+ players who should be retired

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

wonderfullife wrote: »

lads this is ridiculous.

Shay is only just gone 36. Modern keepers with how they look after themselves, he's got another 4 or 5 years in him. He's been a top class goalie for a long time now and that won't change based on a sub-par tournament coming off the back of an injury.

Westwood has plenty of time on his side, he's only 27 and most goalies don't hit their peaks until their early 30's. He's the long term future but Shay is our number 1.

36 now, and 38 at next WC.

Shay was at an advantage straight away as he's so small and crap at crosses.

Who are the best 38 year old goalies around?

Recent Dutch united keeper? Was near 40 no?

noodler

Samich wrote: »

Westwood is better than Given now.

Wow.

I am glad you have finally said it.

No idea what you are basing it on since Westwood hasn't play since last year but I am glad you have come out and said it without any ifs and buts about potential.

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Recent Dutch united keeper? Was near 40 no?

One of the greatest keepers the PL has ever seen. And he didn't drop down clubs like Given is. :rolleyes:

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

I agree with you in how u set the question, as he said its a loaded question, u've asked it in a way to suit urself. Based on this tournament Given is ****, but our future team selection shouldn't be based on this tournament or we'd have 10+ players who should be retired

Why was given **** then in this tournament?

Captain Morgan Freeman

If Shay does stay on then it's safe to say he will retire after the world cup whether Ireland qualify or not. In that sense we have to at least start looking to the future. I would start Given in the majority of the qualifiers and play Westwood in the "easier" games such as friendlies and the weaker teams in our qualifying group(i can't be arsed to check). Westwood needs to start getting first team football though, if not at Sunderland then some other club preferably in the top flight.

Samich

Also to add, once again Schwarzer moved from M'Bro to Fulham, a move up. Friedel moved from Blackburn to Spurs, a move up!

Also how would you phrase the question?

My question is fine, it's saying who would you pick as no.1 based on current form (same thing as saying as this tournament) and potential.

noodler

Samich wrote: »

Also to add, once again Schwarzer moved from M'Bro to Fulham, a move up. Friedel moved from Blackburn to Spurs, a move up!

Also how would you phrase the question?

My question is fine, it's saying who would you pick as no.1 based on current form (same thing as saying as this tournament) and potential.

Whats Westwood's current form?

Non-existant is the answer.

Samich

noodler wrote: »

Whats Westwood's current form?

Non-existant is the answer.

Ah. It's only a part of it ffs, and anyways, what's Givens eh?

Played well against Hungary and I also said it was about potential.

Givens club just avoided relegation.

pavb2

Givens club just avoided relegation

To give him his due no pun intended, he probably kept them in the PL, last minute save against WBA springs to mind

Samich

pavb2 wrote: »

Givens club just avoided relegation

To give him his due no pun intended, he probably kept them in the PL, last minute save against WBA springs to mind

Every keeper makes saves, it's mistakes that define a goalkeeper. And Shay is making mistakes.

SirDelboy18

To be perfectly honest, Given spent an entire season on the bench not so long ago.

I think using that as an argument is poor. Mignolet is a fantastic keeper and Westwood could very well get a look in, in the next season.

twinytwo

Samich wrote: »

On the basis of this tournament and on the potential and ability of Kieran Westwood, who would be the better choice to play in goal

Shay Given or Kieran Westwood?

Shay has cost us at this tournament and Westwood deserves his opportunity.

Nothing against Shay, he's been a fantastic player for Ireland and has saved Ireland on countless occasions but Westwood would do an excellent job for Ireland in my opinion.

Shay was fit, himself and his manager said it so that can't be argued.

Were we watching the same games....after all that went wrong with the entire team, thats all you take from it???

Now ill admit he has had a bad run of games, but to say he cost us the tournament is laughable.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Recent Dutch united keeper? Was near 40 no?

One of the greatest keepers the PL has ever seen. And he didn't drop down clubs like Given is. :rolleyes:

Was he not at Fulham at 36

Samich

twinytwo wrote: »

Were we watching the same games....after all that went wrong with the entire team, thats all you take from it???

Now ill admit he has had a bad run of games, but to say he cost us the tournament is laughable.

Shay Given was solely responsible for several goals in this tournament.

Am I wrong? Are you saying he had no chance of keeping out any of the goals?

yomtea98

David Forde should start.

Amirani

I wouldn't get rid of Given just yet. I'm very much one of his bigger critics as I don't believe he's ever been as good as some people claim. Regardless, I still think he's Ireland's best keeper and should probably start the World Cup Qualifiers as such.

That said, I don't believe he should ever play another friendly for us. His insistence that he starts every friendly has hurt the development of our other keepers. We need a different attitude to friendly matches in general though I think.

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Was he not at Fulham at 36

no, 35 afaik, and it was clear he was still a great keeper. Hence why he went to the best club in the country.

Shows how good Given is if Villa want to sell him.

No top club would have Given now.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Was he not at Fulham at 36

no, 35 afaik, and it was clear he was still a great keeper. Hence why he went to the best club in the country.

Shows how good Given is if Villa want to sell him.

No top club would have Given now.

Villa don't want to sell him they made him sign a 5 yr contract.

We are Ireland we only have 2/3 options, I really expect and want WW to be our next keeper and to do an excellent job but I want the best Keeper in goal for every game and for now that's Given.

wonderfullife

Samich wrote: »

One of the greatest keepers the PL has ever seen. And he didn't drop down clubs like Given is. :rolleyes:

ummmm....

van der saar went from JUVENTUS to Fulham......

rolls eyes indeed!!!!

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Villa don't want to sell him they made him sign a 5 yr contract.

We are Ireland we only have 2/3 options, I really expect and want WW to be our next keeper and to do an excellent job but I want the best Keeper in goal for every game and for now that's Given.

I disagree. He'll be 38 in 2 years and he's conceding goals he shouldn't be.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

pavb2 wrote: »

Givens club just avoided relegation

To give him his due no pun intended, he probably kept them in the PL, last minute save against WBA springs to mind

Every keeper makes saves, it's mistakes that define a goalkeeper. And Shay is making mistakes.

Mistakes dont define a keeper

Samich

wonderfullife wrote: »

ummmm....

van der saar went from JUVENTUS to Fulham......

rolls eyes indeed!!!!

My God, fact of the matter is vds went from Fulham to Manchester Utd.

If Given moves to Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd or Liverpool this summer I'll change my opinion :rolleyes:

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Mistakes dont define a keeper

sigh.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Villa don't want to sell him they made him sign a 5 yr contract.

We are Ireland we only have 2/3 options, I really expect and want WW to be our next keeper and to do an excellent job but I want the best Keeper in goal for every game and for now that's Given.

I disagree. He'll be 38 in 2 years and he's conceding goals he shouldn't be.

In the last 3 games........ At 38 if he is still the best keeper then he plays if motor along the way WW deserves tobe No. 1then he should. Ur looking at it all too simplistic age, 3 games and hope for the nexts ability.

I'll say it again I like WW but he is not yet > than Given

Kiwi_knock

Soups123 wrote: »

Mistakes dont define a keeper

They do though. Keepers such as Paul Robinson, Rob Green and Ben Foster have been defined by their mistakes; and their abilities are still judged by mistakes in the past.

wonderfullife

Samich wrote: »

My God, fact of the matter is vds went from Fulham to Manchester Utd.

If Given moves to Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd or Liverpool this summer I'll change my opinion :rolleyes:

so you are saying VDS was a top class keeper with Fulham but because Shay doesnt play for Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd or Liverpool (??? 8th!) he's no good??? lol.

Fecks sake. Gianluigi Buffon spent a full season in Serie B with Juve, does it mean he's not one of the best in the world because he played in a second tier of Italian football?

Shay Given "dropped clubs" due to a very rare situation. He was one of Citys best signings and had a storming 1st season. The rare situation in question is a once-in-a-generation emergence of a genuine top-class English goalkeeper. The last ones being Seaman, Shilton and Banks.

Shay is still one of the best keepers around. He's our number 1. If he retires then Westwood is our number 1. If not he's the main man for now. In time, Westwood will be.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Mistakes dont define a keeper

sigh.

Sigh my hole, defining a keeper is much more, positionIng, ownership of box, decision making, reaction to a mistake, trust and communication with defense, to say mistakes simply define a goal keeper is lacking in knowledge.

There's more I could add to the above but couldn't be srsed

Samich

You're really missing the point.

You said Given was still a brilliant goalkeeper because so was Vds and Friedel etc.

I'm showing you they are better than Given because they moved to bigger clubs.

If Given was so good, why didn't he move to Spurs/Everton or any other top club?

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Sigh my hole, defining a keeper is much more, positionIng, ownership of box, decision making, reaction to a mistake, trust and communication with defense, to say mistakes simply define a goal keeper is lacking in knowledge.

There's more I could add to the above but couldn't be srsed

As a goalkeeper, don't make mistakes and you're a great keeper. Goalies aren't expected to make saves they shouldn't make.

Also the things I've highlighted, Given never leaves his line so lacks all of them.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Sigh my hole, defining a keeper is much more, positionIng, ownership of box, decision making, reaction to a mistake, trust and communication with defense, to say mistakes simply define a goal keeper is lacking in knowledge.

There's more I could add to the above but couldn't be srsed

As a goalkeeper, don't make mistakes and you're a great keeper. Goalies aren't expected to make saves they shouldn't make.

Also the things I've highlighted, Given never leaves his line so lacks all of them.

That's just too basic. Great goal keepers make saves there not expected to make.

eyescreamcone

Given's form has slipped from his best of a few years ago.
Keepers can play into their late 30s but only if they remain fit.
Given has picked up a good few injuries lately - in fact at the moment he's injury prone.
This affects his ability to train and I believe he's put on a good few pounds.
Compare his level of conditioning with Casillas or Hart (Mancini's gamble doesn't look so silly now).

I don't think he was ever the same after the bad injury he picked up from Marlon Harewood a few years back.

He's 36 and it'll be all downhill from here unless he ups his training seriously.
At his age he needs to train harder to remain on top. Has he the hunger for the fight anymore???

We need to be lining up a replacement.
Westwood, Kenny, Doyle are all contenders
Any others??

But if shay is measurably fitter by the start of the season I'd go with him again.
Any cracks though and it's thanks for the memories

lordgoat

On the basis of this thread should Samich be allowed start more threads?

Ridiculous thread and argument. If Given plays well he should start. If Westwood plays better he should.

Orando Broom

I don't agree with any assertion that Given is world class. He is not. He has far too many failings, most notably his command of the area and his ability to claim crosses. He is a brilliant keeper on his day and has kept Ireland in games on several occasions.

On the basis on his last three outings his outlook is somewhat bleak, having said that we have seen little or none of Westwood in the pressure cooker situations.

One problem I have had with Given and the international managers has been the number of caps he has earned in friendlies. I've always felt it has atrophied our options in the back-up positions. If he is to stay on that must stop. We need our other keepers up to speed considering his age and recent injuries.

Samich

lordgoat wrote: »

On the basis of this thread should Samich be allowed start more threads?

Ridiculous thread and argument. If Given plays well he should start. If Westwood plays better he should.

Oh yeah?

My side of the argument is winning :rolleyes:

And I won't make any more posts. I have a headache.

Renn

lordgoat wrote: »

If Given plays well he should start.

If Given isn't fit should he start? If he hasn't been training all that much pre-tournament should he start? If he looks like he isn't 100% after the first game should he start the next two?