On the basis of this tournament, who would you choose?

deisedave

To be honest Given is Irish and Westwood is from Manchester I would like an Irish man on goal play for Ireland

Chucky the tree

I just hope the mods allow this thread to be bumped religiously every game after Given leaves. Then we can point, laugh and ridicule everyone who wanted him replaced.

Samich

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I just hope the mods allow this thread to be bumped religiously every game after Given leaves. Then we can point, laugh and ridicule everyone who wanted him replaced.

Or any time Given is crap for Villa or whatever club he plays for (if he starts) it'll be bumped

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

lordgoat wrote: »

On the basis of this thread should Samich be allowed start more threads?

Ridiculous thread and argument. If Given plays well he should start. If Westwood plays better he should.

Oh yeah?

My side of the argument is winning :rolleyes:

And I won't make any more posts. I have a headache.

It's not really though Lord Goat is saying the same as many others, the best keeper come squad selection should start. The poll and the question is Stupid, I'm done arguing this one

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

It's not really though Lord Goat is saying the same as many others, the best keeper come squad selection should start. The poll and the question is Stupid, I'm done arguing this one

Why is Given still great if he is at fault for so many goals? How many goals does one have to be at fault for before he gets dropped?

Crackle

Samich wrote: »

If Given was so good, why didn't he move to Spurs/Everton or any other top club?

Well, how many of the top clubs needed a new keeper? Spurs were the only one and they got an outstanding one in Friedel, and didn't have to pay a transfer fee like they would have had to for Given.

And I'm sure Given didn't anticipate being in a relegation battle when he opted to go to Villa.

In my humble opinion, Trap has far bigger selection issues and decisions to make heading into the WC campaign.

Edit: OOps forgot about United and De Gea. My bad. My last point still stands though.

Chucky the tree

Samich wrote: »

Or any time Given is crap for Villa or whatever club he plays for (if he starts) it'll be bumped

Maybe we could bump it for every premier league appearance westwood makes? Considering that is 9 games in his 12 year career this thread won't be bumped alot. :pac:

Soups123

Renn wrote: »

lordgoat wrote: »

If Given plays well he should start.

If Given isn't fit should he start? If he hasn't been training all that much pre-tournament should he start? If he looks like he isn't 100% after the first game should he start the next two?

Nobody has asked for an injured given to start? LGs post clearly said who ever is playing best should start? There was no reference to a partially fit Given being selected

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Nobody has asked for an injured given to start? LGs post clearly said who ever is playing best should start? There was no reference to a partially fit Given being selected

Yeah, whoever plays best starts.

Given wouldn't get in the San Marino team is true.

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

It's not really though Lord Goat is saying the same as many others, the best keeper come squad selection should start. The poll and the question is Stupid, I'm done arguing this one

Why is Given still great if he is at fault for so many goals? How many goals does one have to be at fault for before he gets dropped?

Ur pole isn't about greatness it's about being No.1 for Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Samich

Soups123 wrote: »

Ur pole isn't about greatness it's about being No.1 for Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A minute a go you were comparing him to the best goalie possibly to play for Man Utd.

noodler

Samich wrote: »

Yeah, whoever plays best starts.

Given wouldn't get in the San Marino team is true.

Are you just posting to solicit a reaction?

eyescreamcone

But we can't be chopping and changing our keepers.
The defence must become familiar with him and he must not be so afraid to make a mistake because he'll get dropped straight away

Soups123

Samich wrote: »

Soups123 wrote: »

Ur pole isn't about greatness it's about being No.1 for Ireland!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A minute a go you were comparing him to the best goalie possibly to play for Man Utd.

I didn't mention Scheichal (must correct spelling). I mention Given in comparison to age of VDS never once compared abilities, you asked us to name 38 yr old keepers

Kiwi_knock

Have to agree with some previous comments. Given should never start a friendly for us again, it is pointless and it prevents any of his challengers getting significant game time. He should also not play in the games against the lower standard teams in our group. So if he does not retire, he should share goal keeping duties with Westwood or any other challenger.

Chucky the tree

Samich wrote: »

Westwood would do an excellent job for Ireland in my opinion.

What exactly is your opinion based on? His 9 premier league appearances at the age of 27? The fact he was dropped after straight away as soon as Sunderlands regular first team keeper came back from injury? Maybe it's based on his championship appearances? Either way I can't wait for the answer to this one.

Samich

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What exactly is your opinion based on? His 9 premier league appearances at the age of 27? The fact he was dropped after straight away as soon as Sunderlands regular first team keeper came back from injury? Maybe it's based on his championship appearances? Either way I can't wait for the answer to this one.

Because whenever he has played he's been excellent. Has gotten into the championship team of the year and our current goalie is letting in soft goals.

Chucky the tree

Samich wrote: »

Because whenever he has played he's been excellent. Has gotten into the championship team of the year and our current goalie is letting in soft goals.

But that's what I asked, which matches have you seen him in? If the guy is so excellent I am shocked he has never managed more than 9 appearances in the PL in his long career so far. I'd love to hear your opinion on why that is.

Samich

Hungary a few weeks ago for one.

Chucky the tree

Samich wrote: »

Hungary a few weeks ago for one.

One game? Lol. Do you base all of your footballing opinions on one game?

Soups123

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Samich wrote: »

Hungary a few weeks ago for one.

One game? Lol. Do you base all of your footballing opinions on one game?

In fairness to him I think he is basing it on 4

noodler

Samich wrote: »

Hungary a few weeks ago for one.

Meaningless friendly ahoy!

The same game where Given had an outstanding first half by the way?

noodler

Chucky the tree wrote: »

One game? Lol. Do you base all of your footballing opinions on one game?

Soups123 wrote: »

In fairness to him I think he is basing it on 4

Furiously googling "Westwood" and "man of the match" no doubt.

Sanity_Saviour

This thread is ridiculous.

Given has shown to be better than Westwood, but was in front of an Irish defence which has never been so shaky.

He gradually became second choice primarily because Joe Hart turned out to be one of the best keepers in the world, who was English, so basically had to play.

At the time, it wasn't much of a drop considering City were a top 6 side, and Villa were supposedly challenging for top 6..

Westwood appeared to play well in the Championship because Coventry were shocking, and he had an awful lot to do!

Given will always be better than Westwood, no question.

Renn

Given will always be better than Westwood, no question.

So you play him regardless of how he's performing during the tournament? Do you play a 70% fit Given or 100% 2nd/3rd choice keeper?

wonderfullife

also the OP basing his argument on who Shay plays for is slightly ridiculous. And i'm shocked i haven't heard "what has he won in his career??"!!!!


Playing for a "top club" and winning things are not the only barometers of ability and a successful career. Look at Eddie McGoldrick. 15 caps for Ireland yet has a European Cup Winners Cup Medal from his stint with Arsenal and even appeared as a sub in the final itself in '94 and went to the world cup on the back of that season. (side note that was some Parma team they played in the Final....Tomas Brolin, Zola, Tino Asprilla, Antonio Benarrivo).

Even in the goalie position, you can't gauge it by clubs or medals. Packie won 8 trophies with Celtic but Shay is a better goalie than Packie ever was.

Lev Yashin remains the only goalie to win European Footballer of the Year and is regarded by many as the best goalkeeper in history yet he played his entire career with Dynamo Moscow, hardly a top club even back then. Gordon Banks played most of his career with Leicester, again not exactly a superpower back then.

Finally....if the barometer is playing for a "top club" where the hell does that leave Westwood!! Amazing how a couple of bad games post-injury and "he's finished" yet last year he was heroic against Russia. Ah sure go ahead stick Westwood in for his potential and might as well get Joe Hart out of goal for England and stick Butland in. Why go with tried and tested when potential is on the bench!! :rolleyes:

Pro. F

Silly question from Samich, but that won't come as any surprise.

Given has just had a very poor tournament. Shít happens. When the next competitive game comes around his form will probably be back to normal and he can get back to saving our asses with ridiculous saves every single game. Talking about deciding right now to make a change in goal, when the next competitive game is months away, is idiotic.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

Silly question from Samich, but that won't come as any surprise.

Given has just had a very poor tournament. Shít happens. When the next competitive game comes around his form will probably be back to normal and he can get back to saving our asses with ridiculous saves every single game. Talking about deciding right now to make a change in goal, when the next competitive game is months away, is idiotic.

Really? My side of the argument is leading in the poles.

Also it's not who he plays for.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Really? My side of the argument is leading in the poles.

Also it's not who he plays for.

It's a private poll. For all we know the dregs of the board are voting with you.

I don't know why you are mentioning it not being who he plays for. I didn't say it was. I said your question was a silly. Which it is.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

It's a private poll. For all we know the dregs of the board are voting with you.

I don't know why you are mentioning it not being who he plays for. I didn't say it was. I said your question was a silly. Which it is.

I was responding to the poster above.

Why is it silly?

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

I was responding to the poster above.

Well then why the fúck did you quote me? You've been posting for a year now, you would think that you might have at least started to show some signs of knowing how to carry on a conversation.

Samich wrote: »

Why is it silly?

Don't expect me to do your thinking for you Samich. Read my first post again.

wonderfullife

Renn wrote: »

So you play him regardless of how he's performing during the tournament? Do you play a 70% fit Given or 100% 2nd/3rd choice keeper?

Do you play a 70% fit Joe Hart or a 100% fit Jack Butland or Rob Green? Anyway whatever the answer the difference can be defined as: A. Cole, J. Lescott, J. Terry, G. Johnson, S. Parker and S. Gerard. Having those 6 in front of your keeper makes the decision a bit easier, then yeah i may plump for Westwood if Shay was well below fitness. With our 6 ahead of him, Shay at 70% every time.

At the end of the day our goal was being peppered in every game and anybody thinking Westwood might have kept the scores lower is just guessing. Shay made some decent saves at times too but overall was below his best. He'll bounce back. Difficult year with injury, losing one of his best mates in Gary Speed, tough relegation threatened campaign with Villa...........what he needs is a good holiday, get fit and raring to go and i personally hope to see him back in the Irish number 1 shirt.

Marty McFly

This has to be one of the stupidest threads ive ever seen on here, okay so Given hasnt had a great tournament but none of the team have.

Given is just back from injury with a shaky defence in front of him. A fully fit Given is without a doubt number 1 for Ireland every day of the week no doubt, this is just a knee jerk reaction in a few months with a fully fit Given available there would be mayhem if he were to be dropped.

GavRedKing

On the basis of the tournament performances then Given would be left in Poland but thankfully the decision wont be made over the course of 3 matches and behind a very brittle defence.

Personally, I've never subscribed to the Given been the best in the EPL talk but one things for sure hes definetly our best option and will continue to be until he decides to retire from the international game, so Westwood, Randolph, Forde etc etc will have to wait for their chance.

twinytwo

Samich wrote: »

Shay Given was solely responsible for several goals in this tournament.

Am I wrong? Are you saying he had no chance of keeping out any of the goals?

You could also argue, that if the defencers wernt clueless most of the time, those goals would never have been scored. aimless clearences, sloppy defending and a lack of closing down also contributed to all the goals.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

Well then why the fúck did you quote me? You've been posting for a year now, you would think that you might have at least started to show some signs of knowing how to carry on a conversation.

Because **** fúck ****ety **** ****.

Samich

wonderfullife wrote: »

Do you play a 70% fit Joe Hart or a 100% fit Jack Butland or Rob Green? Anyway whatever the answer the difference can be defined as: A. Cole, J. Lescott, J. Terry, G. Johnson, S. Parker and S. Gerard. Having those 6 in front of your keeper makes the decision a bit easier, then yeah i may plump for Westwood if Shay was well below fitness. With our 6 ahead of him, Shay at 70% every time.

Joe Hart is one of the best goalkeepers in the PL. Comparing him to Shay Given is wrong.

It's like saying would you rather a 70% fit Wayne Rooney or Robbie Keane. :rolleyes:

Samich

twinytwo wrote: »

You could also argue, that if the defencers wernt clueless most of the time, those goals would never have been scored. aimless clearences, sloppy defending and a lack of closing down also contributed to all the goals.

Nope, Shay Given was responsible for the first goal last night and possibly the 2nd.

If he doesn't allow a simple shot to bounce off him out of play, there wouldn't have been a corner to defend, in which he once again was flapping about.

Samich

Marty McFly wrote: »

This has to be one of the stupidest threads ive ever seen on here, okay so Given hasnt had a great tournament but none of the team have.

Given is just back from injury with a shaky defence in front of him. A fully fit Given is without a doubt number 1 for Ireland every day of the week no doubt, this is just a knee jerk reaction in a few months with a fully fit Given available there would be mayhem if he were to be dropped.

He was fit :rolleyes: If he wasn't fully fit he put himself before his country by not declaring he wasn't fit to play.

v3ttel

1. Regular, proven, quality goalkeeper playing week in week out in the Premiership

vs

2. A guy who is number two at his own club, and completely untested for any sort of prolonged period of time except at a lower level (Carlisle, Coventry)

Only here, could #2 be leading the poll.

Pity we didn't have a poll before the tournament. How many people wanted Westwood before the tournament began? Not many I'd say.

In the space of a week or 10 days, how can there be such a swing? Un-f*cking-real

Samich

Rooney10 wrote: »

1. Regular, proven, quality goalkeeper playing week in week out in the Premiership

vs

2. A guy who is number two at his own club, and completely untested for any sort of prolonged period of time except at a lower level (Carlisle, Coventry)

Only here, could #2 be leading the poll.

Pity we didn't have a poll before the tournament. How many people wanted Westwood before the tournament began? Not many I'd say.

In the space of a week or 10 days, how can there be such a swing? Un-f*cking-real

Because Given looks overweight, will be 38 by next WC and is letting in soft goals.

noodler

My faith in the football board has been restored even with the question being asked in such a dishonest manner.

adox

For the record I didnt vote due to the nature of the loaded question.

wonderfullife

Samich wrote: »

Nope, Shay Given was responsible for the first goal last night and possibly the 2nd.

If he doesn't allow a simple shot to bounce off him out of play, there wouldn't have been a corner to defend, in which he once again was flapping about.

This shows what a narrow view of the game you have.

The 1st goal: we were comfortable in possession in our back 4 twice and gave the ball away twice in quick succession. Shay fumbled a shot for a corner. That's a mistake. From the corner, John O' Shea got drawn to the ball, 2 men running towards the ball leaving a gaping hole for the smallest striker on the pitch to nod in from 5 yards.

The 2nd goal: again John O' Shea more concerned with trying to take Balotellis shirt off than trying to intercept the ball. He wasn't even watching the ball as it came in. Powerful strike from close range, Given had no chance.

For goal 1, Shay made a mistake for the corner and is partly responsible for sure, but so is Stephen Ward and Glenn Whelan for giving the ball away so sloppily, and the whole team for again not defending a set-piece properly. Blaming Shay for the goal in full isn't appreciating the true problem, if the lads could pass the ball properly out of defence there would be no shot coming in to fumble, and no corner to defend. All tournament he was placed under immense pressure by our technical limitations to pass the ball to our own team-mates.

adox

Rooney10 wrote: »

1. Regular, proven, quality goalkeeper playing week in week out in the Premiership

vs

2. A guy who is number two at his own club, and completely untested for any sort of prolonged period of time except at a lower level (Carlisle, Coventry)

Only here, could #2 be leading the poll.

Pity we didn't have a poll before the tournament. How many people wanted Westwood before the tournament began? Not many I'd say.

In the space of a week or 10 days, how can there be such a swing? Un-f*cking-real

Its tabloidesque, knee jerk BS.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Because **** fúck ****ety **** ****.

If you have a problem with my cursing then try reporting the posts. Or you could just try getting the fúck over yourself.

Samich wrote: »

Because Given looks overweight, will be 38 by next WC and is letting in soft goals.

The overweight thing is obvious bullshít. You don't have a notion of what you are talking about.

He has let in soft goals in the last three games. There is no denying that. You may not have noticed, but there is a thing called form. It is generally recognised as temporary. If he continues to let in soft goals then you could start talking about dropping him and his career being over without looking like a reactionary idiot.

The fact he will be 38 at the next WC is irrelevant. Many goalkeepers manage to keep their standards up well into their late 30s as anybody with the slightest passing interest in football would know. Even if he was to have turned the corner by then, change him then not now. We should pick our best goalie available when the next competitive game comes around. Making that decision now, months before that game, based on your opinion that he looks fat, three poor games and the hope that Westwood will realise his potential is laughably stupid.

aidan24326

If we had a top class young keeper coming through then there might be a case to be argued. But Kieran Westwood? Nah, I'd stick with Given for now unless his form turns out to be in terminal decline, which of course is possible.

Though Shay may retire from international football anyway. At 36 he may feel he's had enough of it.

Samich

Pro. F wrote: »

If you have a problem with my cursing then try reporting the posts. Or you could just try getting the fúck over yourself.



The overweight thing is obvious bullshít. You don't have a notion of what you are talking about.

He has let in soft goals in the last three games. There is no denying that. You may not have noticed, but there is a thing called form. It is generally recognised as temporary. If he continues to let in soft goals then you could start talking about dropping him and his career being over without looking like a reactionary idiot.

The fact he will be 38 at the next WC is irrelevant. Many goalkeepers manage to keep their standards up well into their late 30s as anybody with the slightest passing interest in football would know. Even if he was to have turned the corner by then, change him then not now. We should pick our best goalie available when the next competitive game comes around. Making that decision now, months before that game, based on your opinion that he looks fat, three poor games and the hope that Westwood will realise his potential is laughably stupid.

Yeah this is true. Look at Edwin Van Der Saar for Example,

-roughly the same age as given was when he moved from a midtable side to the best team in the league. No doubt he was superb until he retired.

Now let's look at Brad Friedel

-Older than Given at 40 when he moved from a mid table Villa to Champions League place chasers Spurs. No doubt Friedel is still a brilliant goalkeeper

Now let's look at Mark Schwarzer

-Roughly the same age as Given when he moved from a struggling M'boro to a midtable side in Fulham. Once again a very good goalkeeper.

Now compare these players to Given. Given moved to Champions League place chasing City to a mid table Villa side, and now a struggling team. The most goals conceded from corners would you believe? And now QPR want to buy him, a team who have Paddy Kenny in goal (lol).

Also look at Given and look at VDS or Schwarzer and you'll see he's put on weight.

The thing that made Given good was his shot stopping, as it was the only thing he was good at. Never came off his line. As he's gotten older he isn't making the same saves he has done.

Pro. F

Samich wrote: »

Yeah this is true. Look at Edwin Van Der Saar for Example,

-roughly the same age as given was when he moved from a midtable side to the best team in the league. No doubt he was superb until he retired.

Now let's look at Brad Friedel

-Older than Given at 40 when he moved from a mid table Villa to Champions League place chasers Spurs. No doubt Friedel is still a brilliant goalkeeper

Now let's look at Mark Schwarzer

-Roughly the same age as Given when he moved from a struggling M'boro to a midtable side in Fulham. Once again a very good goalkeeper.

Now compare these players to Given. Given moved to Champions League place chasing City to a mid table Villa side, and now a struggling team. The most goals conceded from corners would you believe? And now QPR want to buy him, a team who have Paddy Kenny in goal (lol).

He moved from City because they had one of the best young prospects in a generation that they wanted to bring through instead, hardly the end of the world. He moved to a respectable mid table club, who then had the misfortune of hiring Alex McLeish. That is the height of it. The fact that QPR might be trying to bid for him doesn't make him a bad player. It shows how out of touch with reality you are that you think it's great that Schwarzer plays for Fulham, but try to make it out like an indictment that Shay plays for Villa.

Samich wrote: »

Also look at Given and look at VDS or Schwarzer and you'll see he's put on weight.

lol at you trying to come up with the two skinniest keepers of a similar age that you can.

So by comparing Given to two different people we will see that Given has put on weight will we? How about you put down the crack pipe and consider comparing Given now to Given a while ago?

Given now:

Given in an article from 2010:

Yeah quick get him a gastric band!

Samich wrote: »

The thing that made Given good was his shot stopping, as it was the only thing he was good at. Never came off his line. As he's gotten older he isn't making the same saves he has done.

No. In the last three games he hasn't been making the saves that he normally does. Saying "as he's gotten older" would imply that he has been having this trouble for a while. Which would completely ignore the fact that for the last year he has been making miracle saves all through the qualification campaign to keep us in it. It was three games ffs. Just try to engage your brain a bit and don't discard a 36 year old goal keeper because of three bad games. Your argument is fúcking nonsense.

Samich

Ha! Given was responsible for a number of goals, straight from Dunphys mouth!