how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

Lovely Bloke

SantryRed wrote: »

There is no way we were profitable last season.

Was the Fan Forum on yet? They usually release figures at that.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were, given that the playing budget was reduced from the 2011 budget, and we turned a small profit that year.

Having said that, how anyone with a debt as big as Shels' can claim to be in profit is baffling.

celtictiger32

TheNinthGate wrote: »

I'd love to see the figures behind that tbh.

I mean Shels have been "profitable" the last couple of seasons, but if our debtors decided to call in their money we'd be rightly fúcked.

dpnt know the figure for that particular year but according to the reports the league went from losses of around 6-7 million in 2007 and progressed each year to a profit in 2012. regardless of who and where it came from i would have thought it makes positive reading

markc1184

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

The_Kew_Tour

markc1184 wrote: »

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

Was it on paper?

Oat23

markc1184 wrote: »

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

Said on here ages ago that a country like ourselves shouldn't be paying so much for a manager. That money being spent on Trap should be going into the Irish game, but it isn't and never will. There will be another guy after trap that will cost a lot.

Gavin "shels"

TheNinthGate wrote: »

Was the Fan Forum on yet? They usually release figures at that.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were, given that the playing budget was reduced from the 2011 budget, and we turned a small profit that year.

Having said that, how anyone with a debt as big as Shels' can claim to be in profit is baffling.

Fans' Forum tomorrow at 8pm.

It's operating profit the FAI look at, Shels one is complex, Shelbourne FC Ltd doesn't owe any of Ollies creditors it's Accolade Ltd that does but they have to pay some off each year too keep them at bay till Tolka is sold and they get their money. Example, Umbro had to be paid a sizable sum of money in 2007 in order for us to get jerseys done as Ollie had owed money.

Lovely Bloke

Gavin shels wrote: »

Fans' Forum tomorrow at 8pm.

It's operating profit the FAI look at, Shels one is complex, Shelbourne FC Ltd doesn't owe any of Ollies creditors it's Accolade Ltd that does but they have to pay some off each year too keep them at bay till Tolka is sold and they get their money. Example, Umbro had to be paid a sizable sum of money in 2007 in order for us to get jerseys done as Ollie had owed money.

Smoke & Daggers.

markc1184

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Was it on paper?

Yeah one of the Sunday papers, think it might have been the Mirror.

dan1895

markc1184 wrote: »

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

Owen Heary is a legend and speaks sense when talking about football in this country. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be listened to too much.

super_furry

markc1184 wrote: »

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

Would be a nice idea but will never happen. The FAI themselves are only paying half of his wages.

Omackeral

So will this whole Thomond Park set up next Sunday put a stop to the 'poor facilities' excuse I wonder? And I mean that genuinely. Do people think there'll be a good crowd there. Anyone hazard a guess for the attendance?

Lovely Bloke

Omackeral wrote: »

So will this whole Thomond Park set up next Sunday put a stop to the 'poor facilities' excuse I wonder?

lol, No!

Other tired and lazy excuses will be trotted out.

"It's Sunday"
"It's empty"

Omackeral wrote: »

And I mean that genuinely. Do people think there'll be a good crowd there. Anyone hazard a guess for the attendance?

Maybe for the first few games, for the novelty factor, but it will tail off. Undoubtedly.

The people of Limerick are not ready to get behind a soccer team.

NIMAN

I guess for 4000 for Thomond.

The place will look empty.

Lovely Bloke

NIMAN wrote: »

I guess for 4000 for Thomond.

The place will look empty.

From where? Genuinely wondering where that number is coming from - on good days Turner's X gets 3k, and Limerick have a following of two madmen and a three legged dog.

Roar

TheNinthGate wrote: »

From where? Genuinely wondering where that number is coming from - on good days Turner's X gets 3k, and Limerick have a following of two madmen and a three legged dog.

There'll be a big crowd travelling up and playing the game in Thomand will result in many people checking out the game who normally wouldn't go.

I'd expect 4-5k tbh.

Lovely Bloke

Roar wrote: »

There'll be a big crowd travelling up

That's as may be, but still, there won't be the full compliment of Foras heads, let's say say a generous 2.5k do travel (I doubt it, but hey)- you honestly expect 2.5k Limerick supporters?

Have they been growing on trees down there or what?

NIMAN

Novelty value.

Lovely Bloke

NIMAN wrote: »

Novelty value.

But most of the Limerick sportsgoing public will already have been to Thomand.

and anyone with an interest in looking at Soccer in Thomand will have gone to the international, which turned out to be a wet squid.

gimmick

1000 max will travel Sunday. I reckon a max attendence of 3500 and that is pushing it something massive.

The_Kew_Tour

I say about 2800 for precision.

Can't see more 3500

celtictiger32

markc1184 wrote: »

Reading today that Owen Heary wants rid of Trap and his wages to be put into LOI football to improve facilities.

proper order too, pity itll never happen though that dinosaurs wages would go a long way.

i believe trap is heading to pats v drogs this week for his token appearance

COYVB

TheNinthGate wrote: »

Having said that, how anyone with a debt as big as Shels' can claim to be in profit is baffling.

You only claim profit for the financial year. You could be millions in the hole and make €1 more than you spent in a fiscal and legitimately claim a profitable year

NIMAN

Let's be honest, Delaney doesn't give a monkeys about the LoI, its the national team all the way for him.

I think the LoI is an inconvenience to the FAI, but they have to suffer it to allow entry into the qualifying competitions.

Mal-Adjusted

NIMAN wrote: »

Let's be honest, Delaney doesn't give a monkeys about the LoI, its the national team all the way for him.

I think the LoI is an inconvenience to the FAI, but they have to suffer it to allow entry into the qualifying competitions.

if that's true, and i firmly believe it is, why did the FAI take over the League back in 07 or whenever it was?

marwelie

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

if that's true, and i firmly believe it is, why did the FAI take over the League back in 07 or whenever it was?

For the same reason as NIMAN suggests. I'd say it was a case of necessity rather than choice. They've done nothing to increase its popularity despite their resources to do so. No coverage on a Friday night on any platform, sporadic live matches, usually at stupid o'clock, lack of co-operation with clubs regarding spreading the word and facilitating those who have an interest but cannot attend....need I go on.:mad:

Great to have it back on Friday....

Lovely Bloke

marwelie wrote: »

No coverage on a Friday night on any platform

I wish wish they'd revive Gabriel Egan's commentary, it is the quintessential LoI experience imo.

applehunter

TheNinthGate wrote: »

I wish wish they'd revive Gabriel Egan's commentary, it is the quintessential LoI experience imo.

Thats a botch job.

AFAIK, Newstalk bought the rights for the commentary for Fridays but don't do commentary.

Stand corrected.

P_1

Personally I think the problem is that we have the biggest league (read market) next door in England.

How do we compete with this market?

I'd say our best bet would be to take a leaf from Rugby's book and set up an international league a la the Pro 12 with Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland.

Set up 4 new teams from Ireland, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster

Invite 10 teams from Scotland Belguim and Holland, 4 from Wales, and 2 from Luxembourg.

That will give us a 40 team league structure that will allow for promotion/relegation etc which should also have the financial muscle to compete with the Premierships and Bundesligas of the world.

Below this tier we maintain the old national competitions

dan1895

P_1 wrote: »

Personally I think the problem is that we have the biggest league (read market) next door in England.

How do we compete with this market?

I'd say our best bet would be to take a leaf from Rugby's book and set up an international league a la the Pro 12 with Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland.

Set up 4 new teams from Ireland, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster

Invite 10 teams from Scotland Belguim and Holland, 4 from Wales, and 2 from Luxembourg.

That will give us a 40 team league structure that will allow for promotion/relegation etc which should also have the financial muscle to compete with the Premierships and Bundesligas of the world.

Below this tier we maintain the old national competitions

NO!
Just no!
That's not how football works nor should it. If we want a successful domestic league the FAI and clubs have to work at buolding it up to being succesful, not some fairytale quick fix involving a load of other nations.

On a side note, why on Earth would the Dutch or Belgians want anything to do with such a Fankenstein's monster of a league?

P_1

dan1895 wrote: »

NO!
Just no!
That's not how football works nor should it. If we want a successful domestic league the FAI and clubs have to work at buolding it up to being succesful, not some fairytale quick fix involving a load of other nations.

On a side note, why on Earth would the Dutch or Belgians want anything to do with such a Fankenstein's monster of a league?

The money just isn't there to sustain the domestic leagues to have them compete with the Premierships and Bundesligas.

Domestic league in Ireland: Broke, tiny crowds, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Northern Ireland: Broke, tiny crowds, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Scotland: Broke, 1 team league, small crowds, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Wales: Broke, amateur, tiny crowds, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Luxembourg: Broke, amateur, tiny crowds, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Belgium: Struggling financially, talented players moving away from it.
Domestic league in Holland: Struggling financially, talented players moving away from it.

So we have 7 leagues that share common problems. Joining could be a solution to these common problems. You keep the national competitions running to maintain the tradition for the clubs who can't compete financially.

It's not a million miles away from how the Premiership started up back in the early 90's.

dan1895

P_1 wrote: »

Joining could be a solution to these common problems.

It wouldn't be allowed by UEFA so no it couldn't. Also the Dutch and Belgian leagues are lightyears ahead of the others mentioned, they'd have nothing to do with it.

P_1

dan1895 wrote: »

It wouldn't be allowed by UEFA so no it couldn't. Also the Dutch and Belgian leagues are lightyears ahead of the others mentioned, they'd have nothing to do with it.

I'm sure that UEFA can be convinced. It has worked in other sports, why can it not work with football?

In fact with MLS and the A-League, we have two good examples of it working in practice.

The Belgian and Dutch leagues are ahead of the other leagues but even they have a problem attracting the best players and competing in Europe.

dan1895

They don't compete to the same level they used to but Ajax will get more from games vs FC Utrecht or VVV than they would against Shels or Dundelange!

P_1

dan1895 wrote: »

They don't compete to the same level they used to but Ajax will get more from games vs FC Utrecht or VVV than they would against Shels or Dundelange!

That is true, that's why I'm proposing having the top teams from each country compete in this new league, that way you maintain the local derbies but also promote some more high profile games that will bring in more tv deals and sponsorships

dan1895

But how is Ajax v Shels better for Ajax than if they were plying VVV? How is Anderlecht v Barry Town better for Anderlecht than playing St. Truidan? It'd be better for the teams from the smaller leagues but suicide for the bigger ones.

The Leinster FC thing won't work either. What's their market? where will the fans come from?
Sorry for being so negative but this isn't the answer to our problems. Its lots of smaller issues rather than just one big thing (Premiership next door).

Mushy

One way to help the league would be for everyone to try and bring one friend along to each match, get them interested, then after that have yourself and a friend bring one each. Its a long slow process, but no reason it cant work. Im trying to do that this season, for the matches I can make it to anyway.

P_1

dan1895 wrote: »

But how is Ajax v Shels better for Ajax than if they were plying VVV? How is Anderlecht v Barry Town better for Anderlecht than playing St. Truidan? It'd be better for the teams from the smaller leagues but suicide for the bigger ones.

The Leinster FC thing won't work either. What's their market? where will the fans come from?
Sorry for being so negative but this isn't the answer to our problems. Its lots of smaller issues rather than just one big thing (Premiership next door).

You're grand, all proposed solutions need someone to play devils advocate after all.

To be honest I was taking the example of rugby and trying to apply it to football. It won't be a quick fix but it is a potential solution. I mean just 10 years ago Leinster would be doing well to get 4,000 people through the gates for one of their matches, today they have an average of 15,000.

Again using rugby as an example, say a Toulouse v Clontarf match would be doing well to attract a man and his dog. Compare that with say a Toulouse v Leinster match or a Munster v Clermont.

Or say Ajax v Celtic, Swansea v Anderlecht, Aberdeen v Wrexham or even Leinster FC v Munster FC.

I'm not too sure if there is a history of inter-provincial contests in Football in Ireland but we do have inter-provincial contests working quite well in other sports so there is a market there it just needs to be expanded in a football context.

dan1895

P_1 wrote: »

You're grand, all proposed solutions need someone to play devils advocate after all.

To be honest I was taking the example of rugby and trying to apply it to football. It won't be a quick fix but it is a potential solution. I mean just 10 years ago Leinster would be doing well to get 4,000 people through the gates for one of their matches, today they have an average of 15,000.

Again using rugby as an example, say a Toulouse v Clontarf match would be doing well to attract a man and his dog. Compare that with say a Toulouse v Leinster match or a Munster v Clermont.

Or say Ajax v Celtic, Swansea v Anderlecht, Aberdeen v Wrexham or even Leinster FC v Munster FC.

I'm not too sure if there is a history of inter-provincial contests in Football in Ireland but we do have inter-provincial contests working quite well in other sports so there is a market there it just needs to be expanded in a football context.

I know where your coming from but its just not how the sport is run in Europe.

As Mushy said its a long process but doing more to keep kids playing the game, especially those who return from Britain disillusioned, would be a big step in the right direction.

P_1

dan1895 wrote: »

I know where your coming from but its just not how the sport is run in Europe.

True, sometimes though when you have a problem and it can't be fixed according to how it has been run in the past you have to think of something new.

As Mushy said its a long process but doing more to keep kids playing the game, especially those who return from Britain disillusioned, would be a big step in the right direction.

Yeah there is definitely something wrong with Irish football considering the fact that we can't convert our playing numbers at the lower levels to success at the higher levels.

CSF

P_1 wrote: »

You're grand, all proposed solutions need someone to play devils advocate after all.

To be honest I was taking the example of rugby and trying to apply it to football. It won't be a quick fix but it is a potential solution. I mean just 10 years ago Leinster would be doing well to get 4,000 people through the gates for one of their matches, today they have an average of 15,000.

Again using rugby as an example, say a Toulouse v Clontarf match would be doing well to attract a man and his dog. Compare that with say a Toulouse v Leinster match or a Munster v Clermont.

Or say Ajax v Celtic, Swansea v Anderlecht, Aberdeen v Wrexham or even Leinster FC v Munster FC.

I'm not too sure if there is a history of inter-provincial contests in Football in Ireland but we do have inter-provincial contests working quite well in other sports so there is a market there it just needs to be expanded in a football context.

But Irish rugby (Leinster in particular) is soulless and ****. That's not the model we should be striving towards. Gradual progression.

Mal-Adjusted

The problem with the idea of stretching a soccer shaped problem into a rugby shaped solution is that something similar happened in Wales already. They have a Welsh priemership with their top rugby clubs which they sacrificed for the provincial system they now have. The result was club fans who just couldn't get behind the regions and refused to support them. While attendances are picking up now (a decade later) that's because the're reaching out to kids. there's an entire lost generation of fans.

Would fans of Limerick, Cork, Drogheda be willing to abandon their clubs and support provincial soccer? I doubt it. Even if you throw a few of the existing clubs into this soccer Pro-12, it's not going to make other people switch allegiances.

srfc19

P_1 wrote: »

Personally I think the problem is that we have the biggest league (read market) next door in England.

How do we compete with this market?

I'd say our best bet would be to take a leaf from Rugby's book and set up an international league a la the Pro 12 with Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Belgium, Luxembourg and Holland.

Set up 4 new teams from Ireland, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster

Invite 10 teams from Scotland Belguim and Holland, 4 from Wales, and 2 from Luxembourg.

That will give us a 40 team league structure that will allow for promotion/relegation etc which should also have the financial muscle to compete with the Premierships and Bundesligas of the world.

Below this tier we maintain the old national competitions

Who is going to support these teams?

Real fans will continue going to support their teams, and the rest don't want to support a team, they are quite happy watching MOTD & Super Sunday.

P_1

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

The problem with the idea of stretching a soccer shaped problem into a rugby shaped solution is that something similar happened in Wales already. They have a Welsh priemership with their top rugby clubs which they sacrificed for the provincial system they now have. The result was club fans who just couldn't get behind the regions and refused to support them. While attendances are picking up now (a decade later) that's because the're reaching out to kids. there's an entire lost generation of fans.

Would fans of Limerick, Cork, Drogheda be willing to abandon their clubs and support provincial soccer? I doubt it. Even if you throw a few of the existing clubs into this soccer Pro-12, it's not going to make other people switch allegiances.

I think you might have to almost 'abandon' the older fans and start focusing on the younger ones

srfc19 wrote: »

Who is going to support these teams?

Real fans will continue going to support their teams, and the rest don't want to support a team, they are quite happy watching MOTD & Super Sunday.

I guess it would have to be part of a long term marketing strategy. I think one of the main reasons behind the success of provincial rugby is the fact that people see their 'local' team competing at the top level of European rugby and the subsequent bandwaggon effect.

srfc19

P_1 wrote: »

I guess it would have to be part of a long term marketing strategy. I think one of the main reasons behind the success of provincial rugby is the fact that people see their 'local' team competing at the top level of European rugby and the subsequent bandwaggon effect.

But provincial rugby only works for some. Have an interest in rugby but would never even consider heading to Galway from Sligo for a Connaucht(Basically Galway) game.
A Galway person isn't going to want to come to Sligo for a Sligo based Connauct football team.

At least you are thinking about it, but you are nowhere near the right answer!

P_1

srfc19 wrote: »

But provincial rugby only works for some. Have an interest in rugby but would never even consider heading to Galway from Sligo for a Connaucht(Basically Galway) game.
A Galway person isn't going to want to come to Sligo for a Sligo based Connauct football team.

At least you are thinking about it, but you are nowhere near the right answer!

Ah I know it isn't a magic bullet for the problems but just moaning about things won't solve anything

srfc19

P_1 wrote: »

Ah I know it isn't a magic bullet for the problems but just moaning about things won't solve anything

Moaning is half the fun of being an LOI fan. Don't take it away from us!

P_1

srfc19 wrote: »

Moaning is half the fun of being an LOI fan. Don't take it away from us!

Ha that is true, sure my dad's from the Whest and supports LOI, I know how much fun it can be :pac:

osarusan

How did you choose your username P1?

dreamers75

18 hours or so until Kickoff i would suggest those who dont go, actually go to a game.

tada League problem solved.

Dunphy our leader said 4 years ago LOI isnt worth anything to the National Team. Coleman, Hoolahan, Mc Clean, Doyle, Fahey etc beg to differ.

Forresters Fagan Finn Chambers time to shine.

dreamers75

like a child on xmas eve i am

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/10-reasons-why-you-should-go-watch-the-airtricity-league-this-season-821680-Mar2013/?utm_source=twitter_self