how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

Andersonisgod

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

The lady protesteth muchly

And on that flat note I leave for bed, lots of football tomorrow afterall....

celtictiger32

Andersonisgod wrote: »

And on that flat note I leave for bed, lots of football tomorrow afterall....

oh ye cobh and finn harps.........:D

osarusan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

however a newbie to an LOI game means another member to join their clique

This, like most of what you've said, is utter nonsense.

Always, when the 'LOI unfriendly fans keep people away' debate raises its head, there is a portrayal of LOI fans as seeking out newbies to be outed and ostracised. It has no basis in reality whatsoever.

I've been at hundreds and hundreds of LOI games, home and away. every ground bar the Brandywell (and now Tallaght). I've never seen anything resembling this.

Even with poor first division attendances, you're looking at 3-400 people. We don't all know everybody else. We don't know how many games they've been at. We don't care.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

it is the people who don't want to join that they have a questionable attitude towards.

In my experience, it's the people who never whatch games but know 'it's sh!t that anybody could play' that LOI fans have a problem with. And worse, the people who say that they don't support a LOI team 'because there's none near me' but travel to the UK to watch games that we have a questionable attitude towards. I know I do anyway.

Andersonisgod

osarusan wrote: »

This, like most of what you've said, is utter nonsense. I've been at hundreds and hundreds of LOI games, home and away. every ground bar the Brandywell (and now Tallaght). I've never seen even the slightest hint of a clique.

Even with poor first division attendances, you're looking at 3-400 people. We don't all know everybody else. We don't know how many games they've been at.

Always, when the 'LOI unfriendly fans keep people away' debate raises its head, there is a portrayal of LOI fans as seeking out newbies to be outed and ostracised. It has no basis in reality whatsoever.



In my experience, it's the people who never whatch games but know 'it's sh!t that anybody could play' that LOI fans have a problem with. I do anyway.

Im mainly referring to ultras or those hardcore fans who travel together to away games. I can assure you, there is a clique. At no stage have I said that they try to keep people away so that part of your comment is irrelavant.

I don't think I could play at an LOI standard, if I could then I would be. However comparing it to Europe's top leagues is like comparing microwaveable meals to a prime steak in a restaurant, the difference is night and day.

Xavi6

Andersonisgod, is it only Chelsea and Barca you would fork out money to go see? Or where does your line get drawn in terms of what is good and what is crap football? The lower regions of the Premier League? Ligue 1? MLS?

Curious to know how low you would go.

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

Andersonisgod, is it only Chelsea and Barca you would fork out money to go see? Or where does your line get drawn in terms of what is good and what is crap football? The lower regions of the Premier League? Ligue 1? MLS?

Curious to know how low you would go.

Absolutely not. As I said, when I'm older I will go to games in places like Germany, France, Portugal. Places where I believe football will be on show, not the route one stuff too often seen in LOI

Xavi6

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Absolutely not. As I said, when I'm older I will go to games in places like Germany, France, Portugal. Places where I believe football will be on show, not the route one stuff too often seen in LOI

But every league has route one stuff, and you're in for a bit of a shock if you think otherwise. A very large idealistic bubble could go pop.

You didn't answer my question - where does your line get drawn in terms of what is 'good' football and what is rubbish?

Also, there are some very good footballing sides in the League of Ireland. I'd suggest that you simply haven't seen enough of it/them.

The_Kew_Tour

Pats played some nice stuff last night.

Derry and Sligo also play good football.

osarusan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Im mainly referring to ultras or those hardcore fans who travel together to away games. I can assure you, there is a clique.......


....... However comparing it to Europe's top leagues is like comparing microwaveable meals to a prime steak in a restaurant, the difference is night and day.

According to you, you've been to 'a few' games. How can you assure me that these cliques exist? On what firsthand evidence?

When travelling with Limerick FC, I've seen groups of fans who are all friends outside of Limerick FC. They hang about together, and travel together to games, and talk crap together. I'm not part of that group, so I leave them alone to get on with it.

Or, there are groups of fans who stick together because they prefer more risque chants than other fans, or there are groups who stick together because they like to watch the game from a certain position in the stand (when allowed).

Is this the 'clique' you are talking about?

I never compared LOI to any other league in quality, so I've no idea why you're criticisng the comparison I never made.

Amirani

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Absolutely not. As I said, when I'm older I will go to games in places like Germany, France, Portugal. Places where I believe football will be on show, not the route one stuff too often seen in LOI

Haha, route one stuff. You're really showing your ignorance at this stage. Those days are largely finished in the LOI with the exception of a few managers.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Some of these LOI fans who I know wouldn't know what a regista is if one hit them in the face. "

This quote. Gold.

DARK-KNIGHT

Would really love to see LOI prosper I went to a pats and rovers game with my son last year and it was a belter both teams giving their all.. What turned me off driving over an hour from the far side of Kildare was the two minority groups from both sets of fans that were fighting after the game.. More a garda crowd control issue but safety should be paramount..

Does anyone here think the standard of football is bad? When you are watching a top side the standard is amazing I know but there is something about standing or sitting in the stands seeing a game live its a great feeling and the atmosphere makes up for the standard IMO. There is no quick fix we as football fans need to start buying Irish kits and supporting our community teams...

Paz-CCFC

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't think I could play at an LOI standard, if I could then I would be. However comparing it to Europe's top leagues is like comparing microwaveable meals to a prime steak in a restaurant, the difference is night and day.

Then stop comparing them. You're the one who's saying the League of Ireland is "dire" and "not up to scratch", because you're comparing it with the bar set at Chelsea or Barcelona. When you see a job advertised, surely you don't set bar at a six figure sum. When you look at an attractive girl, surely you don't set the bar at Mila Kunis or Megan Fox, you see the girl for what she's worth. Judge the League of Ireland on its own merits and it's a good standard of football. The many EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga fans who come on holidays to Ireland and take in LoI matches while here think so.

CSF

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Would really love to see LOI prosper I went to a pats and rovers game with my son last year and it was a belter both teams giving their all.. What turned me off driving over an hour from the far side of Kildare was the two minority groups from both sets of fans that were fighting after the game.. More a garda crowd control issue but safety should be paramount..

Does anyone here think the standard of football is bad? When you are watching a top side the standard is amazing I know but there is something about standing or sitting in the stands seeing a game live its a great feeling and the atmosphere makes up for the standard IMO. There is no quick fix we as football fans need to start buying Irish kits and supporting our community teams...

Sorry you experienced that, but by and large fan violence isn't particularly common in our league, even at Rovers, who are probably the league's worst offenders in terms of fan behaviour. But even in Tallaght, it is nothing compared to England and most of Europe.

Unfortunately, when you put groups of largely working class males together with alcohol, you're gonna get a bit of trouble every now and again, be that in a pub, a football match, a carnival, anything.

That_Guy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Do I want to catch more LOI games? No, atmosphere or no atmosphere, the standard just isn't up to scratch and at the end of the day that is what matters, the standard of football, if I want to go somewhere purely for atmosphere I'll go to a gig.

How do you know the standard isn't up to scratch when you've hardly been to games? This is a tired and pathetic argument.

All leagues have their fair share of crap games. Even the "best league in the world" (C) Sky

The standard of football line is also BS. "I watched a game once. It was pretty bad so I'll never give the league a proper chance and will use this one example as my main argument until the end of time"

You watch La Liga/EPL. I'm sure you've seen awful games. Does it put you off the league? I highly doubt it.

I used to slate the league without knowing anything about it. But I went to a game. Went again, and again until I realised that it's a much better experience than I thought it was going to be.

When you're so blinkered with a skewed view of the league the only way to give a proper assessment is to go to a few games. At least 2 or 3 games in close proximity in the fixture list.

If it's not for you after that then so be it.

Not everyone will willingly change their mind.

I've been to several Newcastle games and am a Bohemians season ticket holder. While it's nice to get out of the country and go over to Newcastle, there is no better feeling than going for pints of a Friday evening home or away with like minded fans.

This season is my first for attending away games. Cork being my first trip and everyone on the trip welcomed everybody and had a laugh. It's the same at home games. People have often asked me how long I've been a Bohs supporter without any malice but with a sense of intrigue and they're grand with it.

I'm sure there are a section of LOI supporters from all clubs who look down on "casuals" but it's the same with any club really. Band wagoners are rife in football and not just in the LOI.

Give it a chance lad. Throw all views out the window, have a pint, relax and just immerse yourself in it for a handful of games. If you try it and don't like it then fair play for giving it a go but you can't seriously form an opinion without experiencing things.

Who would your local team be out of curiosity?

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

But every league has route one stuff, and you're in for a bit of a shock if you think otherwise. A very large idealistic bubble could go pop.

You didn't answer my question - where does your line get drawn in terms of what is 'good' football and what is rubbish?

Also, there are some very good footballing sides in the League of Ireland. I'd suggest that you simply haven't seen enough of it/them.

Here's the thing, sure some leagues have a bit of route one but what you tend to get the vast majority of the time in continental leagues is technically able teams, with a desire to play the game the right way. For example if you watch a game between two teams near the bottom of La Liga, you will still see a real game of football, with both teams trying to pass, both teams trying to play and with tactics playing a larger role in this kind of game. On the other hand, at the bottom of the Premier League and throughout most of the lower leagues in England you will find the reliance is on pace and power, a bit of passing but mainly trying to power teams into submission. LOI players are probably around a league 2 standard I'd think? Almost all of the LOI players who have been good enough to get out of the league almost inevitably end up going to England, because Ireland and England's football cultures are so similar, because Ireland produce the kind of player England like. Give me smaller, technically proficient players any day of the week.

Sometimes, when I'm bored and there is nothing on and RTE are showing a LOI game I might watch 5 minutes, I quickly realise the error of my ways and switch it off. Personally I find the standard poor, I dont watch the Championship, I don't watch League 1 so why would I watch LOI, which, quality wise, isn't as good as those two leagues but essentially with the same outlook on the game.

Andersonisgod

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Then stop comparing them. You're the one who's saying the League of Ireland is "dire" and "not up to scratch", because you're comparing it with the bar set at Chelsea or Barcelona. When you see a job advertised, surely you don't set bar at a six figure sum. When you look at an attractive girl, surely you don't set the bar at Mila Kunis or Megan Fox, you see the girl for what she's worth. Judge the League of Ireland on its own merits and it's a good standard of football. The many EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga fans who come on holidays to Ireland and take in LoI matches while here think so.

If I go to a store and that store is selling a chocolate bar for 20 cent or a chocolate bar for €1.50, which one do you think will be better? They are both chocolate bars, thus comparison will be inevitable. I want the best chocolate bar, I will enjoy the best chocolate bar because I know that the chocolate bar that I am eating is the best chocolate bar.

Andersonisgod

That_Guy wrote: »

How do you know the standard isn't up to scratch when you've hardly been to games? This is a tired and pathetic argument.

All leagues have their fair share of crap games. Even the "best league in the world" (C) Sky

The standard of football line is also BS. "I watched a game once. It was pretty bad so I'll never give the league a proper chance and will use this one example as my main argument until the end of time"

You watch La Liga/EPL. I'm sure you've seen awful games. Does it put you off the league? I highly doubt it.

I used to slate the league without knowing anything about it. But I went to a game. Went again, and again until I realised that it's a much better experience than I thought it was going to be.

When you're so blinkered with a skewed view of the league the only way to give a proper assessment is to go to a few games. At least 2 or 3 games in close proximity in the fixture list.

If it's not for you after that then so be it.

Not everyone will willingly change their mind.

I've been to several Newcastle games and am a Bohemians season ticket holder. While it's nice to get out of the country and go over to Newcastle, there is no better feeling than going for pints of a Friday evening home or away with like minded fans.

This season is my first for attending away games. Cork being my first trip and everyone on the trip welcomed everybody and had a laugh. It's the same at home games. People have often asked me how long I've been a Bohs supporter without any malice but with a sense of intrigue and they're grand with it.

I'm sure there are a section of LOI supporters from all clubs who look down on "casuals" but it's the same with any club really. Band wagoners are rife in football and not just in the LOI.

Give it a chance lad. Throw all views out the window, have a pint, relax and just immerse yourself in it for a handful of games. If you try it and don't like it then fair play for giving it a go but you can't seriously form an opinion without experiencing things.

Who would your local team be out of curiosity?

I have been to games, I have seen games. I know full well that the standard isn't up to scratch.

No doubt all leagues do have poor games, however what I appreciate about La Liga is that even if the game is poor the teams are still trying to play the right way, the tactical battle is still intriguing because tactics play such a larger part than they do in the 100mph UK and Irish game.

It was more than once.

No, for the reasons I say in the paragraph before last.

People seem to be mistaking atmosphere for quality, as I said before, if I want noise and atmosphere I'll go to a Beyonce concert.

"Not everyone will willingly change their mind." I like that quote, it seems to imply that if you don't "willingly" change your mind you will be brainwashed into believing the spiel of some LOI fans.

And you are absolutely entitled to go out with your mates, have a drink and go to the game. Like I said, I am not knocking that, good on you, you seem like a good, sociable person. It's not for me, that's all. What I do take issue with is this sense of entitlement that LOI clubs (or at least their fans) seem to have, in that they expect every Irish football fan to go to their local club on a weekly basis and if you don't you aren't a "real" fan, as I've said I find that pretentious and sanctimonious. People have their own minds, if they don't want to go they don't have to, it doesn't make them any less a football fan in my view. If they deem the standard to be poor, as I do, then why should I spend my money on going to watch something I deem below standard. I wouldn't buy a car missing two wheels and an engine because it's below the standard I expect, same goes for LOI.

Waterford United.

Paz-CCFC

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If I go to a store and that store is selling a chocolate bar for 20 cent or a chocolate bar for €1.50, which one do you think will be better? They are both chocolate bars, thus comparison will be inevitable. I want the best chocolate bar, I will enjoy the best chocolate bar because I know that the chocolate bar that I am eating is the best chocolate bar.

Price isn't always proportionate to quality, as shown by the Bundesliga (and, no, I'm not saying that the League of Ireland is at the same level as the Bundesliga). Just because that 20 cent chocolate bar might not be as good as the €1.50 one doesn't mean it tastes terrible.

Do you support a national team, out of interest?

That_Guy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I have been to games, I have seen games. I know full well that the standard isn't up to scratch.

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you've been to a live LOI game?

No doubt all leagues do have poor games, however what I appreciate about La Liga is that even if the game is poor the teams are still trying to play the right way, the tactical battle is still intriguing because tactics play such a larger part than they do in the 100mph UK and Irish game.

What is "the right way to play football?" I don't particularly like hoof ball tactics but if it's effective and wins games then it balances it out. I mean Bohs play a nice brand of football but often hoof it forward and has been rather effective when you've got the right players to play that way.

People seem to be mistaking atmosphere for quality, as I said before, if I want noise and atmosphere I'll go to a Beyonce concert.

I never mentioned anything about atmosphere but enjoy Beyonce... I guess.

]quote]"Not everyone will willingly change their mind." I like that quote, it seems to imply that if you don't "willingly" change your mind you will be brainwashed into believing the spiel of some LOI fans.[/quote]

What spiel? Do you think I'm trying to brainwash people? No. I put it out there that there's a game on. It's up to them if they want to fork over their money or not. What I meant to say was that not all people are like me I suppose in that I got hooked very quickly on attending live games. I don't see it as a superiority complex in any way. I'm happy going myself or bringing mates along. Ideally the latter would be preferable.

What I do take issue with is this sense of entitlement that LOI clubs (or at least their fans) seem to have, in that they expect every Irish football fan to go to their local club on a weekly basis and if you don't you aren't a "real" fan, as I've said I find that pretentious and sanctimonious.

What entitlement? I can only speak for Bohs but the push the club are making to advertise their games and to get one or two extra people in every other week is fantastic. Clubs aren't going out with guns to people's heads and forcing them to go to games. I'm sure most clubs would be grateful for the extra money and having an extra body or two.

The "real" football fan tag is a bit cringe and to be honest the only place I've seen that is from the official Airtricity League site. It makes it look like a clique and reeks of looking down on potential new fans. Clubs themselves are not like this at all. And for what it's worth, I've never encountered any fans who use this line. Why would struggling clubs who need money badly alienate new fans from coming to games? They wouldn't and don't. It'd be financial suicide.

People have their own minds, if they don't want to go they don't have to, it doesn't make them any less a football fan in my view. If they deem the standard to be poor, as I do, then why should I spend my money on going to watch something I deem below standard. I wouldn't buy a car missing two wheels and an engine because it's below the standard I expect, same goes for LOI.

You seem to have made your mind up on it but one final question. If you had a young son/daughter who wanted to go to a Waterford United game would you tell them no?
[/QUOTE]

Andersonisgod

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Price isn't always proportionate to quality, as shown by the Bundesliga (and, no, I'm not saying that the League of Ireland is at the same level as the Bundesliga). Just because that 20 cent chocolate bar might not be as good as the €1.50 one doesn't mean it tastes terrible.

Do you support a national team, out of interest?

Price is often a good indicator of quality. I've had the 20 cent chocolate bar, it's not very good. I've had the 1.50 chocolate bar, I like it so I go back for more.

I've been to see Ireland play a good few times but it's difficult to support a team who play such negative football, and a country which is so enamoured with the Premier League that inevitably our national team plays like a big standard Premier League team. Give me a performance from Spain any day of the week.

That_Guy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Price is often a good indicator of quality. I've had the 20 cent chocolate bar, it's not very good. I've had the 1.50 chocolate bar, I like it so I go back for more.

I've been to see Ireland play a good few times but it's difficult to support a team who play such negative football, and a country which is so enamoured with the Premier League that inevitably our national team plays like a big standard Premier League team. Give me a performance from Spain any day of the week.

So the line between good football and football is Spain/Barca >>> Everything else... Riiiight.

Andersonisgod

That_Guy wrote: »

Out of curiosity, when was the last time you've been to a live LOI game?



What is "the right way to play football?" I don't particularly like hoof ball tactics but if it's effective and wins games then it balances it out. I mean Bohs play a nice brand of football but often hoof it forward and has been rather effective when you've got the right players to play that way.



I never mentioned anything about atmosphere but enjoy Beyonce... I guess.

]quote]"Not everyone will willingly change their mind." I like that quote, it seems to imply that if you don't "willingly" change your mind you will be brainwashed into believing the spiel of some LOI fans.

What spiel? Do you think I'm trying to brainwash people? No. I put it out there that there's a game on. It's up to them if they want to fork over their money or not. What I meant to say was that not all people are like me I suppose in that I got hooked very quickly on attending live games. I don't see it as a superiority complex in any way. I'm happy going myself or bringing mates along. Ideally the latter would be preferable.



What entitlement? I can only speak for Bohs but the push the club are making to advertise their games and to get one or two extra people in every other week is fantastic. Clubs aren't going out with guns to people's heads and forcing them to go to games. I'm sure most clubs would be grateful for the extra money and having an extra body or two.

The "real" football fan tag is a bit cringe and to be honest the only place I've seen that is from the official Airtricity League site. It makes it look like a clique and reeks of looking down on potential new fans. Clubs themselves are not like this at all. And for what it's worth, I've never encountered any fans who use this line. Why would struggling clubs who need money badly alienate new fans from coming to games? They wouldn't and don't. It'd be financial suicide.



You seem to have made your mind up on it but one final question. If you had a young son/daughter who wanted to go to a Waterford United game would you tell them no?
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Last LOI game was around 2 years ago.

The right way to play is to pass the ball, move off the ball, create angles for teammates, create chances from these passing patterns. Control possession, control the game. Produce a performance which illustrates the years of hard work and training it has taken to hone your technical skills. Too often LOI and English clubs take an athlete, he's big, he's strong, he's fast, he has all of the physical tools, and then they teach him to play football, in my mind it should be the other way around, first he must know how to play football and if he has a turn of pace (ala Iniesta) or is big (ala Busquets or Javi Martinez) then good, but the primary thing should be footballing ability, not athletic ability. In Ireland and the UK too often it is physicality that is favoured which is partially why LOI teams don't have the players available to them to play possession based games, because that isn't what they were looking for in the first place.

The spiel of, if you don't attend you aren't a real fan. It's a spiel I hear often. I'm not saying it is necessarily you giving the spiel but yes, I do believe among some LOI fans there is a superiority complex.

It seems that some LOI fans seem to think that once you are from the area of the local team and you like football automatically you must go or be branded a consumer. In this very thread I was branded a consumer by a LOI fan.

Really? I've seen it used among the ultras quite often. The reason I posted my original comment last night was because the announcement that Man Utd will be playing Waterford Utd only brought to the surface that sanctimonious attitude of these fans. Terms like "sunshiners" being thrown around and such.

I have a younger brother who regularly goes to Waterford games, he enjoys it, it's grand. He hasn't developed the superiority complex but if he did I would be quick to remind him that while he goes to LOI games he doesn't watch La Liga, he doesn't watch the Bundesliga and his attitude towards continental games leaves a lot to be desired.

That_Guy

[QUOTE=Andersonisgod;84460019
I have a younger brother who regularly goes to Waterford games, he enjoys it, it's grand. He hasn't developed the superiority complex but if he did I would be quick to remind him that while he goes to LOI games he doesn't watch La Liga, he doesn't watch the Bundesliga and his attitude towards continental games leaves a lot to be desired.[/QUOTE]

Just like your attitude to LOI leaves a lot to be desired....

Andersonisgod

That_Guy wrote: »

So the line between good football and football is Spain/Barca >>> Everything else... Riiiight.

No, but I do believe that the standard is set in Spain, primarily at Barcelona. However I am not saying that unless you match Barcelona you are not playing good football. I do believe though that their ideals are the ones that should be matched. For example watch a game in La Liga between two teams low down in the table, the sheer brilliance in quality might not be quite as incredible as Barcelona but they still try to play the right way, fort he most part, and generally you will find that you are watching a match of good technical standard. I watched Spain's under 19 team last Summer, again not quite yet at Barcelona standard but they stayed true to their football philosophy and they were a joy to watch.

It's not only in Spain where good football is being played, that isn't what I am saying, I am just using Spain as an example because they are an easy example to use.

Andersonisgod

That_Guy wrote: »

Just like your attitude to LOI leaves a lot to be desired....

Yes but I have given genuine reasons for why I don't enjoy the LOI. You will find people's reasoning's for not watching La Liga quite superficial.

upandcumming

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yes but I have given genuine reasons for why I don't enjoy the LOI. You will find people's reasoning's for not watching La Liga quite superficial.

Superficial as in...?

overshoot

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It makes it look like a clique

iv followed your posts in here for a bit and iv seen you say this a few times now and its in your head, get over yourself. Nobody is going to saw no you cant join our signing and in my experience they are always eager for more to join! iv been away at college the last 5 years so have had a brutal attendance and to be honest went with my dad the whole time before that who wouldnt be a singer... and is another clubs fan:pac:, i wouldnt have known anyone from the group who signs, no problem walking up this year and chatting to the lads they are always eager for more to join in and create a bit more of an atmosphere.

In this very thread I was branded a consumer by a LOI fan.

he was quoting you saying the customer will reject it.... isnt consumer isnt a general term here? you brought up the area. In the end we can all be described as consumers no matter how we watch... if we hand over money to a club/sky sports... and the massive amount of adds that also go with sky sports we participating in consumerism because like it or not the world is about money and every football club is also a business at the end of the day

anyway as i think you have seen most people in this thread have no problem admitting that the loi is a lower standard of football. but it is the overall match day experience which somewhat makes up for that. you can see much more at a live game as to what is happening around the pitch than the tv camera will allow you to, then you get to participate in signing and general banter with the fans which again adds to the overall enjoyment. The football may be of a lower standard but there are benefits to the live experience over the tv experience. Iv been to a few premier league games and they were absolute borefests, i havnt branded the league as ****e and still watch it but i find and i think will always find the overall matchday experience much better than a tv experience no matter what level of skill is on display... and you wanted reasons for why people dont watch la liga... one cant afford to go out to spain... also go to rugby/gaa games so i find im left with little time for watching anything on tv

The reason I posted my original comment last night was because the announcement that Man Utd will be playing Waterford Utd only brought to the surface that sanctimonious attitude of these fans. Terms like "sunshiners" being thrown around and such.

this attitude can pop up because to be honest its quite frustrating, the league of ireland clubs will struggle to get people through the gates but a team of youngsters and reserves will bring thousands because Man Utd is attached. There will be plenty who line up for man u in that match and i could guarantee most man u fans in attendance will have to go "who" for at least a few! id imagine they will know/have seen as much of the waterford players. il happily recant this if they bring even 3/4 first team players but i seen somewhere they have a tour to asia at the same time so i wont be holding my breath

ps waterford atmosphere must have improved slightly over the last 2 years... i know it can be harder to get one going for a home game when you havnt been drinking on a bus for hours but about 20 sang their hearts out in the pissing rain in Donegal last week for the full 90 mins... i dont really know why they didnt come under the shed:pac: and in fairness the first division is a graveyard, not exactly any big name draws to get the crowds, dogfight of a division (5pts from 2nd to 2nd last) if your still watching when your team is there your well and truly hooked!

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Here's the thing, sure some leagues have a bit of route one but what you tend to get the vast majority of the time in continental leagues is technically able teams, with a desire to play the game the right way. For example if you watch a game between two teams near the bottom of La Liga, you will still see a real game of football, with both teams trying to pass, both teams trying to play and with tactics playing a larger role in this kind of game. On the other hand, at the bottom of the Premier League and throughout most of the lower leagues in England you will find the reliance is on pace and power, a bit of passing but mainly trying to power teams into submission. LOI players are probably around a league 2 standard I'd think? Almost all of the LOI players who have been good enough to get out of the league almost inevitably end up going to England, because Ireland and England's football cultures are so similar, because Ireland produce the kind of player England like. Give me smaller, technically proficient players any day of the week.

Sometimes, when I'm bored and there is nothing on and RTE are showing a LOI game I might watch 5 minutes, I quickly realise the error of my ways and switch it off. Personally I find the standard poor, I dont watch the Championship, I don't watch League 1 so why would I watch LOI, which, quality wise, isn't as good as those two leagues but essentially with the same outlook on the game.

Lets be honest about it. What the league needs is more registas.

celtictiger32

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Sometimes, when I'm bored and there is nothing on and RTE are showing a LOI game I might watch 5 minutes, I quickly realise the error of my ways and switch it off. Personally I find the standard poor, I dont watch the Championship, I don't watch League 1 so why would I watch LOI, which, quality wise, isn't as good as those two leagues but essentially with the same outlook on the game.

i was respecting your argument there for a while until this ^^^^ now your just talking bollix.

btw you only watch top leagues what will you do when england slips down the coefficient rankings, no more chelsea?

DARK-KNIGHT

Simple as arses need to be on seats to provide funding for better players managers coaches etc. the LOI need to be proactive in advertising the top tiers and encouraging fans to leave their homes to watch matches

Richard Hillman

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Sometimes, when I'm bored and there is nothing on and RTE are showing a LOI game I might watch 5 minutes, I quickly realise the error of my ways and switch it off. Personally I find the standard poor, I dont watch the Championship, I don't watch League 1 so why would I watch LOI, which, quality wise, isn't as good as those two leagues but essentially with the same outlook on the game.

Agreed. Even as somebody that has been going to LOI games for over 10 years, I cannot bear to watch the tv games. The vast majority of them are horrific. I dont see anything that would attract people to matches.

If I did not have an interest in a team, I wouldn't bother with the league and cant blame you for not being interested.

Andersonisgod

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Agreed. Even as somebody that has been going to LOI games for over 10 years, I cannot bear to watch the tv games. The vast majority of them are horrific. I dont see anything that would attract people to matches.

If I did not have an interest in a team, I wouldn't bother with the league and cant blame you for not being interested.

Thank you. Throughout my posts on this subject I have been pretty strict in my use of the word "some LOI fans" when I've been discussing attitudes. I realise that not all LOI fans are like this. Like I said, KI have no problem with people going to the games with their mates, having the banter and whatever else, I wish those people the best.

The only issue I have is the opinions some LOI fans have of those who don't attend games regularly. I think that football fans in Ireland who don't go to LOI games generally have a fair and valid reason and it is their choice at the end of the day, I just don't think these people should be looked down upon by some LOI fans.

Andersonisgod

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i was respecting your argument there for a while until this ^^^^ now your kust talking bollix.

btw you only watch top leagues what will you do when england slips down the coefficient rankings, no more chelsea?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Is there much to suggest that they will slip down the coefficient rankings, given the influx of money into the league next season with the new tv deal.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Lets be honest about it. What the league needs is more registas.

More technically gifted players. more tactically aware players. Even taking Ireland as an example (and there is a decent number in the Irish squad that came through the LOI) it amazes me how few players Ireland have that can effectively play between the lines. Wes Hoolahan is the only one that instantly springs to mind.

applehunter

Andersonisgod wrote: »

More technically gifted players. more tactically aware players. Even taking Ireland as an example (and there is a decent number in the Irish squad that came through the LOI) it amazes me how few players Ireland have that can effectively play between the lines. Wes Hoolahan is the only one that instantly springs to mind.

shenanigans

Johnny Russell put on an exhibition last night at the Cross.

Others that come to mind.

Mark Quigley, Joey Ndo, Daryl Kavanagh,

Andersonisgod

overshoot wrote: »

iv followed your posts in here for a bit and iv seen you say this a few times now and its in your head, get over yourself. Nobody is going to saw no you cant join our signing and in my experience they are always eager for more to join! iv been away at college the last 5 years so have had a brutal attendance and to be honest went with my dad the whole time before that who wouldnt be a singer... and is another clubs fan:pac:, i wouldnt have known anyone from the group who signs, no problem walking up this year and chatting to the lads they are always eager for more to join in and create a bit more of an atmosphere.


he was quoting you saying the customer will reject it.... isnt consumer isnt a general term here? you brought up the area. In the end we can all be described as consumers no matter how we watch... if we hand over money to a club/sky sports... and the massive amount of adds that also go with sky sports we participating in consumerism because like it or not the world is about money and every football club is also a business at the end of the day

anyway as i think you have seen most people in this thread have no problem admitting that the loi is a lower standard of football. but it is the overall match day experience which somewhat makes up for that. you can see much more at a live game as to what is happening around the pitch than the tv camera will allow you to, then you get to participate in signing and general banter with the fans which again adds to the overall enjoyment. The football may be of a lower standard but there are benefits to the live experience over the tv experience. Iv been to a few premier league games and they were absolute borefests, i havnt branded the league as ****e and still watch it but i find and i think will always find the overall matchday experience much better than a tv experience no matter what level of skill is on display... and you wanted reasons for why people dont watch la liga... one cant afford to go out to spain... also go to rugby/gaa games so i find im left with little time for watching anything on tv

this attitude can pop up because to be honest its quite frustrating, the league of ireland clubs will struggle to get people through the gates but a team of youngsters and reserves will bring thousands because Man Utd is attached. There will be plenty who line up for man u in that match and i could guarantee most man u fans in attendance will have to go "who" for at least a few! id imagine they will know/have seen as much of the waterford players. il happily recant this if they bring even 3/4 first team players but i seen somewhere they have a tour to asia at the same time so i wont be holding my breath

ps waterford atmosphere must have improved slightly over the last 2 years... i know it can be harder to get one going for a home game when you havnt been drinking on a bus for hours but about 20 sang their hearts out in the pissing rain in Donegal last week for the full 90 mins... i dont really know why they didnt come under the shed:pac: and in fairness the first division is a graveyard, not exactly any big name draws to get the crowds, dogfight of a division (5pts from 2nd to 2nd last) if your still watching when your team is there your well and truly hooked!

Again you've misinterpreted what I have been saying. I am not saying that you won't be welcomed, as you say they will be only too happy to have you on board. That isn't my issue and at no stage have I said it is an issue. My issue is that those who don't want to go aren't looked on quite so kindly.

Excellent, then we can all agree that LOI fans are consumers just like everybody else or that non-LOI fans are football fans, just like LOI fans, I don't really care which term you want to use once we are equal.

If you are there purely for the banter and atmosphere then fine. Personally I wanted to watch football, I didn't enjoy the football that was on show, I don't enjoy that kind of football so I don't go. The live experience is great but if the product is sub-standard then that will obviously affect your enjoyment of the event. Personally I'd rather watch Barcelona on the tv than Waterford in person, yes there will be a better atmosphere at the Waterford game because I will be there in person but the quality of the Barcelona game will far outweigh that of Waterford and at the end of the day that is what I want, quality.

Is Man Utd, a global brand, stick the jerseys, bring the crests and badges and you are guaranteed a sell out. What bugs me is that after the game you will have these Waterford Utd fans saying comments like "I wonder if we'll see that many down here for the next home game" in sarcastic tones, of course they wont, those fans are there to see Man Utd because they are Man Utd fans. It's this underlying resentment that some LOI fans have of non-fans that is irritating.

Andersonisgod

applehunter wrote: »

shenanigans

Johnny Russell put on an exhibition last night at the Cross.

Others that come to mind.

Mark Quigley, Joey Ndo, Daryl Kavanagh,

And maybe eventually they will end up in England, as Hoolahan has. Therein is a problem, the best LOI players inevitably end up in England (if they are good enough) because England seems to be the only country seriously recruiting from the LOI. So now you have the very best of the LOI playing in different leagues in England the whole time anyway.

Xavi6

Andersonisgod wrote: »

More technically gifted players. more tactically aware players. Even taking Ireland as an example (and there is a decent number in the Irish squad that came through the LOI) it amazes me how few players Ireland have that can effectively play between the lines. Wes Hoolahan is the only one that instantly springs to mind.

Stop reading Zonal Marking, seriously. Your life will be better without nonsense buzz phrases like this.

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

Stop reading Zonal Marking, seriously. Your life will be better without nonsense buzz phrases like this.

It's a terrific website with detailed and relevant analysis, far better than anything you see on television, Michael Cox also does some great work for The Guardian and is always a joy to read.

However "between the lines" isn't a buzzword invented by the media, you hear it quite often in interviews, particularly with continental players. Far from a buzzword it is a vital part of modern day football, with every major team having players who can drift in behind a midfield and in front of a backline, making them more difficult to pick up. That you think between the lines is simply a buzzword used to sound impressive rather than being a huge part of modern football (and it is) is disconcerting.

Xavi6

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It's a terrific website with detailed and relevant analysis, far better than anything you see on television, Michael Cox also does some great work for The Guardian and is always a joy to read.

I disagree, a lot of it is pointless over analysis from someone with far too much time on their hands. There's nothing revolutionary about it, most people posting here could do the same if they didn't work a 40 hour week and could watch, pause, rewind and repeat.

However "between the lines" isn't a buzzword invented by the media, you hear it quite often in interviews, particularly with continental players. Far from a buzzword it is a vital part of modern day football, with every major team having players who can drift in behind a midfield and in front of a backline, making them more difficult to pick up. That you think between the lines is simply a buzzword used to sound impressive rather than being a huge part of modern football (and it is) is disconcerting.

It is a buzzword, and it's become more prevalent as the circle jerk around tactics has increased.

These days the only real area where there are definite 'lines' is between the goalkeeper and the back four, everywhere else has players drifting in and out with formations and positions changing regularly throughout the game.

Ironically, "between the lines" has become more used when the necessity for it is no longer as great as it once was.

Also, I never said it was 'invented by the media'.

Lucan Bohs

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Absolutely not. As I said, when I'm older I will go to games in places like Germany, France, Portugal. Places where I believe football will be on show, not the route one stuff too often seen in LOI

If you're looking for top class footy Portugal ain't for you. I've seen 4 games there and 3 have been 0-0. Attendances without the "big 3" average at 2/3000 so hardly a world away from the LOI.

Germany, with the exception of Bundesliga 1&2, is a fairly low standard when compared to league 1 & 2 in England

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

I disagree, a lot of it is pointless over analysis from someone with far too much time on their hands. There's nothing revolutionary about it, most people posting here could do the same if they didn't work a 40 hour week and could watch, pause, rewind and repeat.



It is a buzzword, and it's become more prevalent as the circle jerk around tactics has increased.

These days the only real area where there are definite 'lines' is between the goalkeeper and the back four, everywhere else has players drifting in and out with formations and positions changing regularly throughout the game.

Ironically, "between the lines" has become more used when the necessity for it is no longer as great as it once was.

Also, I never said it was 'invented by the media'.

It isn't simply a matter of watching the game at a snails pace though. It's the understanding of the game that he shows, also the little pieces of side-knowledge he throes around colours the article and illustrates his points further, here is an example of that from a recent article.

"Barcelona’s most frequent passing combination was Marc Bartra to Gerard Pique – a move that happened 21 times. At Barca’s peak, the 2011 Champions League final, their most frequent passing combination was Xavi Hernandez to Andres Iniesta, 33 times. The ball spent too long at the back, and Barcelona never picked up the tempo and piled on the pressure on the Bayern defence."

It seems like something small but actually it drives home one of the main points of that article. It's impressive writing, but more than that it is impressive analysis.

While formations have become more fluid, there is still generally a set shape, in midfield particularly. Each team has a shape that the manager will have worked on, each team is expected to get into a certain shape depending on the context of a game, in this respect defending is still a quite rigid affair and attacking teams have to break that down, one way of doing that is by being fluid and that means having players who can get between the lines, swap positions in an intelligent manner ect.

I will again use Spain as an example. Playing without a striker, it is vital that they have players who go beyond their regularly midfield stations and drift in between the lines to influence the play. This usually involves Iniesta and Xavi moving forward, beyond the opposition midfield, and Fabregas drifting backwards, in front of the opposition backline. Between the lines is a very real thing and yet it is something that is so lacking in Ireland, a land that seems to still be dominated by the rigid 4-4-2

Andersonisgod

Lucan Bohs wrote: »

If you're looking for top class footy Portugal ain't for you. I've seen 4 games there and 3 have been 0-0. Attendances without the "big 3" average at 2/3000 so hardly a world away from the LOI.

Germany, with the exception of Bundesliga 1&2, is a fairly low standard when compared to league 1 & 2 in England

I'm not saying every team in Portugal is perfect, however the way countries on the continent develop their players almost ensures that pro sides will have some level of technical ability and likely more than their Irish counterparts.

Xavi6

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It isn't simply a matter of watching the game at a snails pace though. It's the understanding of the game that he shows, also the little pieces of side-knowledge he throes around colours the article and illustrates his points further, here is an example of that from a recent article.

"Barcelona’s most frequent passing combination was Marc Bartra to Gerard Pique – a move that happened 21 times. At Barca’s peak, the 2011 Champions League final, their most frequent passing combination was Xavi Hernandez to Andres Iniesta, 33 times. The ball spent too long at the back, and Barcelona never picked up the tempo and piled on the pressure on the Bayern defence."

It seems like something small but actually it drives home one of the main points of that article. It's impressive writing, but more than that it is impressive analysis.

I also have the Stat Zone app. I can also read diagrams and statistics. It's readily available information, he just has the time to write it all down. It's not impressive writing in the slightest, for that read some of Barney Ronay's columns.

While formations have become more fluid, there is still generally a set shape, in midfield particularly. Each team has a shape that the manager will have worked on, each team is expected to get into a certain shape depending on the context of a game, in this respect defending is still a quite rigid affair and attacking teams have to break that down, one way of doing that is by being fluid and that means having players who can get between the lines, swap positions in an intelligent manner ect.

I will again use Spain as an example. Playing without a striker, it is vital that they have players who go beyond their regularly midfield stations and drift in between the lines to influence the play. This usually involves Iniesta and Xavi moving forward, beyond the opposition midfield, and Fabregas drifting backwards, in front of the opposition backline. Between the lines is a very real thing and yet it is something that is so lacking in Ireland, a land that seems to still be dominated by the rigid 4-4-2

The Irish national team uses 4-4-2. You've said yourself that you turn the LoI off after five minutes so how in that time can you conclude that the league is dominated by the rigid 4-4-2? Even your pal Cox would need more time to 'analyse' that.

You've got a seriously idealistic attitude towards football, only perfection will do it seems, when one of the beauties of the game is that it is more often than not the opposite of perfect.

Good help you if Barca/Chelsea ever get relegated.

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

I also have the Stat Zone app. I can also read diagrams and statistics. It's readily available information, he just has the time to write it all down. It's not impressive writing in the slightest, for that read some of Barney Ronay's columns.



The Irish national team uses 4-4-2. You've said yourself that you turn the LoI off after five minutes so how in that time can you conclude that the league is dominated by the rigid 4-4-2? Even your pal Cox would need more time to 'analyse' that.

You've got a seriously idealistic attitude towards football, only perfection will do it seems, when one of the beauties of the game is that it is more often than not the opposite of perfect.

Good help you if Barca/Chelsea ever get relegated.

I do read Barney Ronay's articles, hugely enjoyable stuff, obviously a very talented writer. I also enjoy Jonathan Liew's pieces for The Telegraph. They are quite different writers though, when it comes to analysing a match I'd have Cox ahead of any writer. The argument that anybody could do it if they had the time is ridiculous, if that were the case many more people would be employed by The Guardian.

Irish national team, Wateford United the occasional times I've seen them but I actually meant more like Sunday league and underage teams, 4-4-2 remains the go-to formation at that level, and of course it's from these underage teams that pros and semi-pros emerge. Personally I think playing 4-4-2 from childhood hinders the development of the kid and his ability to play between the lines.

I have high standards. I have ideals on how the game should be played. I enjoy watching those teams that try to play the right way. None of that really has much to do with my original grievance in this thread but I suppose it gives a nice backstory of me to everybody.

I don't expect that relegation to happen very soon.

Xavi6

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I do read Barney Ronay's articles, hugely enjoyable stuff, obviously a very talented writer. I also enjoy Jonathan Liew's pieces for The Telegraph. They are quite different writers though, when it comes to analysing a match I'd have Cox ahead of any writer. The argument that anybody could do it if they had the time is ridiculous, if that were the case many more people would be employed by The Guardian.

The Guardian originally used Cox because he was a student willing to do it for free. When he became "cool" they had no choice but to give him a few quid (well, I presume he gets paid for it now) so he'd stick around.

If you don't think you could do what Cox does with all the hours in the day on your hands then I think you're selling yourself short.

Irish national team, Wateford United the occasional times I've seen them but I actually meant more like Sunday league and underage teams, 4-4-2 remains the go-to formation at that level, and of course it's from these underage teams that pros and semi-pros emerge. Personally I think playing 4-4-2 from childhood hinders the development of the kid and his ability to play between the lines.

I have high standards. I have ideals on how the game should be played. I enjoy watching those teams that try to play the right way. None of that really has much to do with my original grievance in this thread but I suppose it gives a nice backstory of me to everybody.

I don't expect that relegation to happen very soon.

I could go down the road of asking how you know about Sunday league football given it's of a far lesser standard than the LoI which you won't watch but I think I'll bow out now.

You really should open your eyes a bit more, you'll be a better fan for it.

Andersonisgod

Xavi6 wrote: »

The Guardian originally used Cox because he was a student willing to do it for free. When he became "cool" they had no choice but to give him a few quid (well, I presume he gets paid for it now) so he'd stick around.

If you don't think you could do what Cox does with all the hours in the day on your hands then I think you're selling yourself short.



I could go down the road of asking how you know about Sunday league football given it's of a far lesser standard than the LoI which you won't watch but I think I'll bow out now.

You really should open your eyes a bit more, you'll be a better fan for it.

Either I am selling myself short or you expect too much of me, either way I've clearly made a good impression so thank you.

I play Sunday league, I coach kids so I'm fairly confident speaking about that.

I think my eyes are open, but I've ensured that they are only open to quality.

However I do think it is best if we both bow out of this discussion.

celtictiger32

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm not saying every team in Portugal is perfect, however the way countries on the continent develop their players almost ensures that pro sides will have some level of technical ability and likely more than their Irish counterparts.

irish football as a whole is catching up on a technical level, if you are coaching you should be aware of that. the people we have had in the halls of power have had and still have too much emphasis on the national team and as a result grassroots and also national league suffer. look at futsal for example spain and south american countries have used this for years and the fruit has showed in spain over the last few years for the generation that was introduced to this. in comparison ireland brought it in about 5 years ago and will be a while yet waiting to see the benefit.

that aside you mention portugal, for all ronaldos technical ability it didnt help him when pat flynn burst him out in tallaght a few years back.:D

Andersonisgod

celtictiger32 wrote: »

irish football as a whole is catching up on a technical level, if you are coaching you should be aware of that. the people we have had in the halls of power have had and still have too much emphasis on the national team and as a result grassroots and also national league suffer. look at futsal for example spain and south american countries have used this for years and the fruit has showed in spain over the last few years for the generation that was introduced to this. in comparison ireland brought it in about 5 years ago and will be a while yet waiting to see the benefit.

that aside you mention portugal, for all ronaldos technical ability it didnt help him when pat flynn burst him out in tallaght a few years back.:D

There have been improvements, though still not as dramatic as they could have been. For example when I was 10 years old we used to play on the big goals, playing full pitch, that doesn't happen anymore so that can only be a good thing. Futsal is great, it's just trying to get the facilities in place so that the kids can go to futsal once a week. Maybe in time, with more adjustments, Ireland's football culture can become one focused on technical ability and possession but right now that isn't the case. There are many reasons for that, personally I'm not convinced that this country can ever fully change it's football philosophy, it seems to be ingrained into people.