how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

kksaints

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I suppose the question is: what outcome are you looking for?

If the answer is: get big crowds, get people to be fans of Irish clubs rather than British clubs, then there is only one possible solution in my book.....

Follow the rugby route:

Have 3 clubs in Ireland - one in Dublin, one in Cork, one in Belfast - that play in some sort of Celtic League that includes Rangers and Celtic.....and have clubs that are capable of qualifying for the Champions League.

You can have a League of ireland structure below that, which are feeders.

That is the only way.

Its just not possible to that without the agreement of the 4 federations and UEFA. I would be very surprised if you could get all of them to agree to it. Why would federations put their UEFA spots at risk? Also it must be said about Rugby that apart from Ireland setting the regions up hasnt been successful in Wales or in Scotland. Some of the attendences for the Pro12 matches have been poor.

kksaints

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That can only be done with an overall realignment of leagues throughout Europe.
No leagues can make such a move unilaterally.


All of the above is true, and I’d also add that soccer is the most ‘consumed’ sport in Ireland, i.e media, merchandise etc.
Just look at how many more posts this form has compared to the GAA or Rugby form.

But at the end of the day the LOI is not at the top of the list of that consumption, and it will never be as long as you have the huge entity that is English soccer next door.

People have to decide what level the LOI realistically can maintain
Is it every team getting consistent crowds of 10k + ?
Is it every club being financially sound?
Is it Champions’ league group stages?
Is it Europa knock out stages ?

Far bigger leagues than the LOI have problems getting teams into CL group stages. Personally if we could get clubs to have decent stadiums and good youth programs (such as an U-17 and U-15 leagues ,the U-19 league has been making an impact on first teams this season so its impact is now been seen) I would believe that average attendences of 3000+ could be achieved for most clubs,1500+ for the smaller ones and EL group stage qualification could be achieved more often.

mikeym

The League of Ireland clubs need investment from the FAI.

Or else the FAI develop a state of the art youth academy, we should be taking note of clubs like Ajax, they have a great youth system.


Exciting young players of tomorrow could draw crowds.

Cienciano

frimpong wrote: »

Improve the grounds to a decent standard, look at League 2 grounds like Burton Albions one for example. That plus marketing, marketing and more marketing.

I agree that better grounds would make a difference. But the stadium you used as an example cost €10m. Clubs don't have that money.

Success in Europe is the best thing for LoI clubs to attract new fans. I think keeping players in Ireland till they're 18 might help too.

TheDoc

madman100 wrote: »

The real problem is the Oirish public. They have no interest. They are only into the EPL and that will never change. I have been to many EPL games and there is little or no atmosphere by comparison to a proper LOI Dublin derby. I fear they will never become interested because the irish (contrary to their "best fans in the world" claims) actually aren't that interested in football at all. The majority are nothing more than event junkies who are as happy attending a red bull karting corporate event as they would be a football match.

They will never extract their gargantuan asses out of their armchairs and attend real football on any kind of regular basis.

Part of the problem, I wasn't even through ten posts and we have the typical "Non LOI" bashings going on.

If you want to get as simple as it get's, we live in a world dominated by choice. In just about every avenue of expense, we have a choice. What WE as consumers, wish to consume.

Ireland is in the unfortunate situation that a short distance away is a league of far superior standard, stature and ability. It's just an unfortunate geographical thing.

It's also most likely down to first exposure. My first exposure to football was the English game. By the time I got to my mid teens, and realised there was a domestic game and I should maybe go check it out, I was used to a certain standard, excitement and style of play, what I was used to seeing. Unfortunately I've never been able to shack that when I go watch League of Ireland. Because I was never really into it from a young age, I'd no following of a club, no knwoledge of players or history of the clubs, and was watching as a pure neutral. And as a spectacle, as a match, it was always dire for me.

I must try a LOI game about three times a season, to see if I can get into it, and everytime I come away disappointed.

Yeah sure the atmospheres are great, but I'm not driving to stadia to have craic with fans, I'm there to watch football. And it's unfortunately just not a great spectacle and not something that makes me want to come back week after week.

This rubbish about people who watch Premier league being any less of footballing fans is just tribal rubbish and does nothing to try resolve the issues within LOI, or attract newcomers.

What makes LOI "real football" , actually won't even get into that point because it's such a tribal fanoy comment to make.

To make the sport here grow you need to grow the fanbase, to generate more revenue so more can be invested into the game, and therefore expanding and growing. To do that, you need to catch a significant portion of new fans, aswell as maybe bringing in some fans who might have allegiences to other leagues around Europe.

So whilst it's great that you all talk in the same circle, coming up with the same ideas, occasionally having a pop at any non-loi fans, you really need to rethink the process. The MAIN people you need to talk to, are those who are not LOI fans, or fans of other leagues.

We all know why and what LOI fans like LOI but do you know why other people don't? It is not always just down to just issues of standard of play etc.

Until you have an all inclusive talk, without people having snide pops at "armchair" fans, then the domestic game will continue to rot away into what is essentially a glamorised Sunday league.

loyatemu

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That will only happen as part of a wider re alignment of European football.

Its inevitable and when it does happen it will be the only game in town, if you'll excuse the pun

why is it inevitable? it's the major european leagues that generate the income that ultimately feeds back to the governing bodies and UEFA.

They don't give a damn about the clubs & leagues in smaller countries - if the Irish League, LOI, LOW all folded tomorrow it wouldn't affect UEFA in the slightest - the Champions League and international football would continue on regardless.

As for all the suggestions of following the GAA model - there are/were already county teams - Monaghan, Kilkenny, Longford, Sligo, Wexford; there's a unified Galway team now too.

Oat23

the untitled user wrote: »

That's a stupid, limited, self defeating reponse. We need to be asking why? Why do a much larger percentage of their population attend games? That's the question we need to be asking. That's what we need to be trying to affect.

Any way I put my reply is going to sound like I am bashing the non-LOI fans.

The Uruguayans love the game more. They want to go out and watch live matches from their own league, not stay at home and watch games from their neighboring countries that have superior leagues (Argentina, Brazil). They know their league is not as good and accept it for what it is. Irish people are not willing to accept Irish football for what it is, and help it improve by attending games.

Forget about getting other fans to back it right now. Getting the FAI to back the league would be a start. They do absolutely nothing. It is shameful considering how many former LOI players there are in the national team these days.

tastyt

loyatemu wrote: »

why is it inevitable? it's the major european leagues that generate the income that ultimately feeds back to the governing bodies and UEFA.

They don't give a damn about the clubs & leagues in smaller countries - if the Irish League, LOI, LOW all folded tomorrow it wouldn't affect UEFA in the slightest - the Champions League and international football would continue on regardless.

As for all the suggestions of following the GAA model - there are/were already county teams - Monaghan, Kilkenny, Longford, Sligo, Wexford; there's a unified Galway team now too.

Your right that the county teams haven't been a success but it's because they are done in a real half arsed way with no real support . Get coaches from these teams into schools, give schoolkids free tickets every week, make it as big a deal to play soccer for your county as it is to play gaa for your county. Have kids aspire to make the county teams at underage level and set up proper inter county competition where young players get a chance to be seen by scouts instead of having the counter productive situation of having the best players playing for a handful of schoolboy clubs. What a lot of people don't get is outside the premier league in England football is a very local thing. People support the local club and it's a real community/club feel. That is what we should be aiming for, forget the glitz and glamour of the premier league because we will forever be in its shadow 

major bill

The Day a Bohs/Rovers match becomes ''family friendly'' is the day i will stop going,

Ridiculous post

Leroy42

^^^I assume that was directed at me.

In any case, fair enough. I would suggest that given the state of the LOI it needs some change to happen, this was just one idea of how to make it open it up to a wider audience. It is clear that the current set-up is not working, but if you prefer to keep the current set up then to even try something new then enjoy the continuing falloff in support, the continued reduction in quality and the continued slide from professioal to semi-pro to amatuer as is the inevitable outcome of the current system.

So apart from maintaining the less than family friendly atmosphere what else would you do to save the league?

osarusan

I'd be in favour of three regional leagues, and national league. The national league is just 4 teams, one from each province. they play each other a handy 9 times a season.

If that's not enough, throw in a Celtic league of some kind, and a team in the premier league. I can see no reason why those leagues and clubs wouldn't weaken their own leagues to help the development of Irish football.

Problem solved.

iDave

People talk about county teams, provincial teams, Celtic leagues etc but completely ignore the complex politics that are a barrier to this and also ignore the existing fanbase who've kept Irish domestic football alive.

Why would SPFL teams agree to a Celtic League? Turkeys voting for Christmas. Bottom half SPFL teams deliberately relegating themselves so Irish and Welsh teams can have their big days out in Glasgow.
And why would Celtic rather play LOI over traditional rivals?

Lovely Bloke

Michael O'Leary would make a killing on a Celtic League, that's for sure.

Leroy42

iDave wrote: »

People talk about county teams, provincial teams, Celtic leagues etc but completely ignore the complex politics that are a barrier to this and also ignore the existing fanbase who've kept Irish domestic football alive.

But this is exactly the point. The current system is not working, they might be staying alive but little else. We need to look at the old structures that have never worked (at least in my lifetime) and look at what can deliver for the future.

That does not necessily mena getting rid of the current set up, but it should be something that is at least discussed. As far as I can tell (admittedly from a distance) there is a disconnect between the FAI and the LOI. Both should be working for the betterment and advancement of football in Ireland.

Is the LOI seen as a feeder league for the national squad, developing young players to move on to higher leagues so that they make the national team or is it an end to itself, focused purely on results within the league?

Neither one is right or wrong. If the developer league then the FAI need to provide the resources to allow the league to run properly and central contracts could form a part of that. Teams would get some reward for the development and sale of players but the FAI and league in general would also benefit. Squads could have a certain number of non development sqaud members to have some experience etc.

Leagues in many in South American countries are run this way, they know that their best players will be taken by the big European teams. They have young squads coupled with returning older stars who want to finish their career at home.

If having the league stand alone, then FAI needs to invest in it to generate the support from the ground up. I believe that if the product is reasonable, targeted & marketed correctly and priced right then it could get a lot more casual fans, families etc that turn up on occassion. This would generate additional income.

Stop comparing to the premier league, totally different product. People in the UK still go to Scunthorpe etc, and they have the premier league even closer than us!

homingbird

Make the setanta cup bigger by adding teams from wales , Scotland & NI. Might bring money into the game & euro experience.

osarusan

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is the LOI seen as a feeder league for the national squad, developing young players to move on to higher leagues so that they make the national team or is it an end to itself, focused purely on results within the league?

It's purely focused on itself. That is the only way that LOI will ever be successful, and the reason why all these celtic leagues are just fantasy.

Producing better players for the national team can only ever be a welcome by-product of a healthy LOI, not the main aim of it.

Anybody who thinks there can be a successful LOI with the focus on the latter is dreaming, nothing more.

gimmick

Leroy42 wrote: »

So apart from maintaining the less than family friendly atmosphere what else would you do to save the league?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by a "family friendly atmosphere"?

loyatemu

homingbird wrote: »

Make the setanta cup bigger by adding teams from wales , Scotland & NI. Might bring money into the game & euro experience.

nobody is particularly interested in seeing LoI teams playing Welsh or Northern teams (the Setanta Cup has been at best a modest success)

The only attraction would be in seeing Celtic & Rangers get involved, and they want go and play in England (where they're facing the same issue, the English clubs, with a few exceptions, aren't really interested).

UEFA could try to create regional leagues to try and boost club football in smaller countries, but this goes against everything they've done in the past and there's not much in it for them.

A merging of the 2 Irish leagues is probably a good idea in the long-run, but it wouldn't in itself solve many of the problems they both have, and there are a lot of vested interests on both sides of the border who would oppose it.

Captain Havoc

This is about the fourth thread on this in the last twelve months. I don't know what people expect the LOI to be. The LOI is the highest level of football in this country and people still call it muck, I really don't know what to think of people like that.

There are three types of fans, those that go to game, those that don't and the event junkies. For this reason, county teams won't work, Kilkenny City were doing well and getting 1,000+ at games, then turned to muck and couldn't get 100. County teams would be the same. I know Kilkenny city fans that still go to LOI games, just because that's what we've done since we were kids. The premier league isn't a reason either, if you turned football off the telly, people still wouldn't go to LOI games, this type of fan would just watch Eastenders or something, they just want to be entertained at home or down the pub. Switzerland is parked up beside the Bundesliga, Seria A and Ligue 1 and still does fine, so a proximity to the UK is not a reason. Stadiums, not a reason for keeping fans away either, class stadium like Thomand is empty and a kip like Oriel gets good crowds. The FAI, they do actually promote the LOI, how as ever, I would like to see a feeder academy for the league. Once the Aviva is paid off, we'll see how much they're prepared to invest in the LOI. It is wrong that only the top three or four teams make money. All this is just whataboutery.

I 100% feel that it is up to the clubs themselves to fill their own stadiums. I don't know what the potential is for teams, I would imagine around a 5,000 average per game in the premier each week. A huge majority of this would be done through advertising, it really is a simple as a few decent posters and an advert each week in the local rag.

I am pie

Oat23 wrote: »

Any way I put my reply is going to sound like I am bashing the non-LOI fans.

The Uruguayans love the game more. They want to go out and watch live matches from their own league, not stay at home and watch games from their neighboring countries that have superior leagues (Argentina, Brazil). They know their league is not as good and accept it for what it is. Irish people are not willing to accept Irish football for what it is, and help it improve by attending games.

Forget about getting other fans to back it right now. Getting the FAI to back the league would be a start. They do absolutely nothing. It is shameful considering how many former LOI players there are in the national team these days.

Bad example, Uruguayan teams compete well in the Copa Libertadores. You would do well to find any supporter of Nacional in Montevideo who accepts that their team shouldn't beat any other team in the Libertadores, that is just not how their minds work. Perhaps that's part of the irish problem...the idea that we should accept less in terms of standard and get behind it for the sake of a few beers and a singsong in the stadium.

Also, there at economic limitations at stake here, even if there were fans in Montevideo of Boca and River it would be completely unfeasible for them to fly over, watch a match and get home on the same day, not even really that feasible for weekends. There are different economic realities and no ryanairs in play here. Air travel is very expensive, car and boat journeys not particularly expensive and much more time consuming. The nearest big Brazilian team to Uruguay is about as close to Montevideo as Dublin is to Southern Spain.

Uruguayans produce technical excellent players. They export them. They believe they can win, they believe that with Suarez in the team they would have won the World Cup, it's a different mentality altogether. Not interested in matches for the craic, or banter. It's about winning, at all costs.

Their clubs are the main (only!) show in town in terms of supporting a club, there is no rugby or gaa to muddy the waters. As a comparison it just does not stack up.

BMMachine

major bill wrote: »

The Day a Bohs/Rovers match becomes ''family friendly'' is the day i will stop going,

Ridiculous post

maybe one day you wont have a match to go to then.

Its all about getting the kids. I dunno how, but if you get the kids into the LoI it will be all the better for it. trying to convert older fans won't really work aside from maybe a few examples. But for sustainable growth and security, its all about that younger market, like it or loathe it

Oat23

I am pie wrote: »

Bad example, Uruguayan teams compete well in the Copa Libertadores. You would do well to find any supporter of Nacional in Montevideo who accepts that their team shouldn't beat any other team in the Libertadores, that is just not how their minds work. Perhaps that's part of the irish problem...the idea that we should accept less in terms of standard and get behind it for the sake of a few beers and a singsong in the stadium.

I don't know about them competing well. Apart from Penarol a few years ago, I can't remember a Uruguayan team getting past the last 16.
One team makes it past the groups if they are lucky and it ends there most of the time. Maybe a team made the QF once or twice but I wouldn't call them challengers or anything like that. They are weaker overall compared to the Argentinian/Brazilian teams and Uruguayan people must see that even if they don't want to admit it.

I am pie wrote: »

Also, there at economic limitations at stake here, even if there were fans in Montevideo of Boca and River it would be completely unfeasible for them to fly over, watch a match and get home on the same day, not even really that feasible for weekends. There are different economic realities and no ryanairs in play here. Air travel is very expensive, car and boat journeys not particularly expensive and much more time consuming. The nearest big Brazilian team to Uruguay is about as close to Montevideo as Dublin is to Southern Spain.

I never mentioned going to games. Only a minority of foreign football fans in this country go to games overseas regularly. I said "stay at home and watch games from their neighboring leagues".

I agree that Uruguay is a bad example and I said that in my previous post to the one you quoted where I shot down the comparison only to have my post called stupid.

Oat23 wrote: »

The big 2 in Uruguay average over 20k fans a game, which gives them money to develop players to compete in the group stages of the copa libertadores. Which pays them almost $1,000,000 each year.

There's no comparison to be made between Ireland and Uruguay just because we have small populations. A much larger percentage of their population attends games which is the only important stat.

FatherTed

Admittedly, being in the US for quite some time, I've only gone to a few LOI matches when I happen to be home sometimes. But I used to regularly go to Galway United matches almost every week in my younger years. Anyway, the original poster made a point about MLS and I think FAI and the clubs should really look into this. MLS started off small with 10 teams and a low salary cap with the league office owning the contracts. Then they went to 12 teams but they had troubles the first 6-7 years, the two Florida teams went defunct, back down to 10 teams and gradually adding more teams every since, they'll be up to 21 teams next year. The key has been to build slowly and being flexible e.g. the had a strict salary cap early on but gradually increased it every year and then allowed 1 DP(Designated Player) when Beckham came in, now teams can have 3 DP's.

I think if the players contracts were managed centrally by LOI and have FAI fund the contracts of a "DP" star player and assign one to each team to start. Now, I'm not talking Ronaldo or Messi here but maybe an "aging" stars like Robbie Keane instead of playing in LA, would play for Shamrock Rovers or a David Villa playing for Bohs instead of NYCFC, maybe even an Andy Carroll or Didier Drogba playing for Galway United. Show them the money! But that would be offset by larger crowds, bigger sponsorships.

The other thing is coaching the kids. The FAI should hire a bunch of dutch and maybe even south American coaches and assign them to the youth teams at each LOI club. This is the key long term to the overall development in Ireland. All our best players should not have to leave for England where I think the coaching is quite poor anyway.

major bill

BMMachine wrote: »

maybe one day you wont have a match to go to then.

Its all about getting the kids. I dunno how, but if you get the kids into the LoI it will be all the better for it. trying to convert older fans won't really work aside from maybe a few examples. But for sustainable growth and security, its all about that younger market, like it or loathe it

I agree about getting kids into the games but there are 29 other games ina season they can go to. The whole selling point of the Dublin Derby is the atmosphere and it's no more bitter than other derbies throughout Europe, it's a derby that has surprisingly grown in cult status throughout Europe in regards to visitors from oversees coming to the game.

farna_boy

I'm not sure I buy into this thing about the EPL being so great that we can't watch LOI as well. I sure do. Every time I get a chance I go out and support Cork City, but I would also be an avid Arsenal fan. I don't understand why they have to be mutually exclusive.

The biggest flaw in the EPL argument though is that there are another 3 or 4 divisions below the PL that seem to also do alright and most of those teams would also have a PL team far closer to them than we have in Ireland.

To a large extent it must be up to the local LoI clubs to try and promote their club better and to encourage locals to go out and support their local team. Cork City have been doing this well, especially this year and I think the return of John Caufield as manager has helped a lot, but so has the advertisement around Cork, on facebook and on twitter. City already had a sizeable enough crowd but have managed to attract an extra maybe one or two thousand this year compared to last. The fact they are doing well also helps immensely. There is also a family section (with a very large drum) at the opposite end of the ground to the hardcore fanbase so each section can be happy .

The problem for other clubs though is that many of them can't afford to run advertisement to such as large an extent as City, don't have a large enough crowd on a typical basis and frequently, because they are not doing as well, can't attract crowds because they simply aren't as good as other teams in the league. In these cases, it is much more difficult to attract people to come watch a match. Clubs in lower divisions in England can still survive in similar survive despite their teams not doing well, but many of them have been in place for decades and so have amassed fans through local pride and commitment of their fans through thick and thin.

What these Irish clubs need is money and funding but then it becomes one big catch 22. I believe that the FAI should be much more heavily involved in every club taking lessons learned from the bigger clubs here and clubs in lower divisions in England and try to apply them here, and helping all clubs to maximise their potential. However, if you can't instill a sense of local pride or loyalty into the fanbase, the second the team starts performing poorly they will start losing the crowd and it will be back to square one again.

Concannon7

A big part of the problem is advertising. I live in rural Galway. Big hurling area. As a kid I supported the Irish national team and Man Utd. I always wanted to know about Irish football but from where? I couldn't find it in the papers, maybe it was there but when you are 10 and in a paper dominated by English football it was hard to find.

I never see anything on the tv or on Facebook or anywhere about the LOI. I need to look for it. I don't need to do that for any other sport be it GAA, rugby or English football. It's all around me. If kids grow up supporting English teams its too late. You are not going to change a 25 year old Liverpool or Man Utd fan into a Sligo Rovers or Galway FC fan.

On tv its no better. Everyone understands the standard is below England but its still not bad and can be very good to watch. I have not supported Man Utd since I was a kid. Last year at the beginning of the 2013 season I made a big effort to watch as much Irish football on the tv as I could. Help me get more into it while I waited for Galway F.C to enter the league. I really enjoyed it...for the first six or seven weeks. But then all of a sudden there seemed to be no matches on at all. Pro 12 rugby near the end of the season and other things before that had taken its place.

You need to catch kids at a young age. As someone with a business backround I know advertising is key. I feel the LOI lack in that department. I underatand they are starting off at a hard base because even if kids do take an interest they will probably be told by adults anyway to 'watch real soccer, not that muck' sadly. But LOI need to get rid of that label which won't be easy. It's a shame because underneath it all there is some great football to watch.

civis_liberalis

Galway football has deeper problems that advertising unfortunately.

Dick phelan

Lad's the problem is money simple as, if your a real good player you will go to England, the LOI just can't pay the really good players the money they would earn in England or even Scotland, a player in the Championship the average earning is 5k a week, if they are really exceptional and make the EPL the average wage is 23k a week, any talented kid won't play in the LOI if they can earn big money elsewhere. Also the fact is Ireland isn't a football nation, people jump on the bandwagon when the national team do well, in reality the majority aren't that interested in Football, GAA, Rugby take a lot from support LOI could get in this country. Ireland as a nation just isn't that big a footballing nation.

major bill

Dick phelan wrote: »

Lad's the problem is money simple as, if your a real good player you will go to England, the LOI just can't pay the really good players the money they would earn in England or even Scotland, a player in the Championship the average earning is 5k a week, if they are really exceptional and make the EPL the average wage is 23k a week, any talented kid won't play in the LOI if they can earn big money elsewhere. Also the fact is Ireland isn't a football nation, people jump on the bandwagon when the national team do well, in reality the majority aren't that interested in Football, GAA, Rugby take a lot from support LOI could get in this country. Ireland as a nation just isn't that big a footballing nation.

Just to touch on this point, at one stage LOI clubs were paying silly wages to keep the players in the league, Clubs can't (and shouldn't) be paying these wages anymore as clubs nearly landed on deaths door as a result.

Ive been going 14 years to LOI and in that time Ive seen clubs try everything to attract fans...cash is king but not 100% the answer. I think a better attitude towards the league in the media is needed for a start, the likes of Dunphy and co slagging off the league or making smart remarks on RTE is not right and they should be pulled up on it, also any small bit of bother with crowd trouble is automatically bigger news than the football on show, this is what effects peoples opinions of the league and makes them think there is a serious problem in that they can't bring their kids. not true at all and it's well known the only spot of bother you will get at a LOI game is if you go looking for it.

trashcan

It's all about perception for me. There's just no hype about the league and it's not seen as a go-to event, the way Leinster rugby has become for example. (And there's no point talking about trying to emulate rugby, there is a totally different set up.) I'm sure if Bohs, Pats or Rovers were seriously competing to win European titles they'd be getting big crowds too. Sadly that's the Irish mentality. We're a small country on the edge of Europe, but we look at our bigger neighbour beside us and think we're entitled to a similar standard (of everything, not just football.)

The one argument that really annoys me is the "quality" one. If it was about quality and good football, then as this increased, so would crowds. I've been a regular at Pats for 20 years and for the past two or three, I've witnessed the current Pats team play the best football I've seen in that spell. Our crowds however are rubbish. It took the title decider against Sligo last year to bring any sort of a decent crowd out. We were getting more bodies through the gate 15 or 16 years ago. At the end of the day I enjoy going along to Richmond. Sure, I wish more people would come, but c'est la vie. What I'm not in favour of are any crazy Celtic league/Franchise football quick fix ideas. I can't claim to have any answers, but one thing I would be in favour of is expanding the league to 16 teams and regionalising the second tier. We need to spread the appeal of the league, not restrict it. Clubs like Waterford, Finn Harps, Galway etc would have a much better chance of prospering if they were playing in the top league. The FAI need to reduce the registration fee as well. I think I read somewhere that someone had done the calculations, and they were actually taking money out of the league when you add up what they take in from clubs and then subtract the prize money. Ridiculous stuff. And don't get me started on that chancer Delaney:mad: A few people in the FAI who actually gave a flying fook about the league would be a nice start actually.

The_Kew_Tour

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Galway football has deeper problems that advertising unfortunately.

can I ask what different problems Galway has over other areas?

Corholio

All this nonsense about the less than 'family friendly' atmosphere being some kind of barrier. Using Bohs-Rovers as an example is any easy way out to try and make your point. Mention most other local derbies and your point completely falls apart.

tastyt

Sadly, no other country in Europe has anything like the huge problem that is the GAA. Football is number 1 in 99% of other countries but we drew the short straw and invented a ****ing amateur organization that is like religion to a huge chunk of our sporting population. As football fans Wer Pissing against the wind.

farna_boy

tastyt wrote: »

Sadly, no other country in Europe has anything like the huge problem that is the GAA. Football is number 1 in 99% of other countries but we drew the short straw and invented a ****ing amateur organization that is like religion to a huge chunk of our sporting population. As football fans Wer Pissing against the wind.

While I share your frustration about the GAA, I don't think we need to blame others while our organisation is so lacking and probably a far greater restriction to the success of football in Ireland.

One thing that did come to mind after reading about your post though was why don't the FAI try to integrate football into both primary and secondary schools?

One large factor as to why Rugby/GAA are so popular is that they are played at school level as part of national competitions, In primary school (in Cork anyway) there is Sciath na Scoil and the Dr Croke Cup/Hogan Cup for GAA in secondary schools nationwide and for Rugby there is the Provincial Schools Rugby Cup. A similar football based competition would surely encourage young players and via careful sponsorship encourage a larger attendance at LOI matches e.g. local LOI clubs would give cheap tickets to players/schools involved in the competition or LOI teams providing coaching of school teams.

BOHtox

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I suppose the question is: what outcome are you looking for?

If the answer is: get big crowds, get people to be fans of Irish clubs rather than British clubs, then there is only one possible solution in my book.....

Follow the rugby route:

Have 3 clubs in Ireland - one in Dublin, one in Cork, one in Belfast - that play in some sort of Celtic League that includes Rangers and Celtic.....and have clubs that are capable of qualifying for the Champions League.

You can have a League of ireland structure below that, which are feeders.

That is the only way.

Who is going to support a Dublin club? Would Bohs and Rovers fans, who once shouted vitriolic abuse at opposition players and fans, all of a sudden come together and to convivially shout against a new artificial rival?
Nope!

What players would they have? Would they attract much greater talent than what the LOI has to offer now?
Nope!

And would the regular Joe Soap who doesn't support the LOI start supporting a team with no history, tradition or sense of belonging to an area all because the word 'Dublin' is in it?

That was tried before with Dublin city and failed miserably.


I think the FAI should look at one centrally contracted player at each club. That way you could get some talent in to the league, or keep it here, and attract new punters as there would be a few more recognisable names in the league.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

All of the above is true, and I’d also add that soccer is the most ‘consumed’ sport in Ireland, i.e media, merchandise etc.
Just look at how many more posts this form has compared to the GAA or Rugby form.

But at the end of the day the LOI is not at the top of the list of that consumption, and it will never be as long as you have the huge entity that is English soccer next door.

People have to decide what level the LOI realistically can maintain
Is it every team getting consistent crowds of 10k + ?
Is it every club being financially sound?
Is it Champions’ league group stages?
Is it Europa knock out stages ?

I agree with all that. Particularly the last paragraph. I know it's late but I'm interpreting your point as the LOI/FAI should pick a target, aim for it and then sustain it!

Personally, I believe we could be on a par with Scotland only due to the fact we have more clubs in Dublin and we have relatively large areas with only one club the success won't be limited to two teams but you'd have a much finer balance.

dfx-

Posts merged from the out of date thread below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055743520

Please take note of the mod warning linked in the OP of this thread about amalgamating existing clubs or areas similar to Dublin City. It will be considered trolling.

Fr Tod Umptious

BOHtox wrote: »

I agree with all that. Particularly the last paragraph. I know it's late but I'm interpreting your point as the LOI/FAI should pick a target, aim for it and then sustain it!

Personally, I believe we could be on a par with Scotland only due to the fact we have more clubs in Dublin and we have relatively large areas with only one club the success won't be limited to two teams but you'd have a much finer balance.

Exactly, the bodies in charge of the league have to decide what is a realistic, sustainable level for the league and try to achieve and maintain it.

What level of achievement is sustainable in Europe, and what level of facilities are sustainable (no Reynolds Arenas, no condemned structures)
How can they hold on to decent players without going into financial meltdown etc

By the way what is the LOI fan's idea of a sustainable league ?
You say on a par with Scotland, what is the general consensus ?

osarusan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

E
By the way what is the LOI fan's idea of a sustainable league ?

The LOI has sustained itself for decades.

Any teams that has tried the 'spend lots and let the rewards cover the debt' approach has eventually paid a heavy price. That is something that a lot of people don't seem to think about.

I don't see the LOI ever becoming much better than it is now. People talk about better facilities and training leading to players staying at home longer, but I wonder how much our facilities and training will ever improve, and how they will compare to clubs in England, for example.

The LOI club with the highest average so far this season is Cork, at just under 4000. UCD, also of the premier division, have an average of 400. The premier division average is 1633.

To put that into perspective, Cork's average is lower than all but 4 English football League 1 teams last year. 9 league teams have a higher average too. The lowest average of any League 2 team (Accrington Stanley) is 1605, just below the LOI divisional average so fat this season.

The stadium with the lowest capacity in English league football is Crawley's Broadfield Stadium, with a capacity of 6134, about 2100 of which is seated. Here's a picture. Developing a similar facility would be just a fantasy for at least half the clubs in LOI. By way of comparison, St. Pats, the current LOI champions, have a stadium with a smaller capacity, although 2800 of it is seated. There are bigger and better grounds in LOI, granted.

So when we talk about keeping them at home and giving them better training, I have to say I'm sceptical. How good can that training be? What can the club afford?

What standard of football can we ever hope to achieve in LOI, and how likely is it that the standard of football and facilities will entice people to games?

Fr Tod Umptious

osarusan wrote: »

The LOI has sustained itself for decades.

Any teams that has tried the 'spend lots and let the rewards cover the debt' approach has eventually paid a heavy price. That is something that a lot of people don't seem to think about.

I don't see the LOI ever becoming much better than it is now. People talk about better facilities and training leading to players staying at home longer, but I wonder how much our facilities and training will ever improve, and how they will compare to clubs in England, for example.

The LOI club with the highest average so far this season is Cork, at just under 4000. UCD, also of the premier division, have an average of 400. The premier division average is 1633.

To put that into perspective, Cork's average is lower than all but 4 English football League 1 teams last year. 9 league teams have a higher average too. The lowest average of any League 2 team (Accrington Stanley) is 1605, just below the LOI divisional average so fat this season.

The stadium with the lowest capacity in English league football is Crawley's Broadfield Stadium, with a capacity of 6134, about 2100 of which is seated. Here's a picture. Developing a similar facility would be just a fantasy for at least half the clubs in LOI. By way of comparison, St. Pats, the current LOI champions, have a stadium with a smaller capacity, although 2800 of it is seated. There are bigger and better grounds in LOI, granted.

So when we talk about keeping them at home and giving them better training, I have to say I'm sceptical. How good can that training be? What can the club afford?

What standard of football can we ever hope to achieve in LOI, and how likely is it that the standard of football and facilities will entice people to games?

So does it even need to be fixed then, as is the point of the thread ?

Or can it be fixed, if in fact it is actually broken ?

osarusan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So does it even need to be fixed then, as is the point of the thread ?

Or can it be fixed, if in fact it is actually broken ?

I think that for people who don't attend LOI, 'fix' means 'improve', and I think that the kind of improvement that they imagine is beyond what will happen in LOI.

Gavin "shels"

osarusan wrote: »

The LOI has sustained itself for decades.

The LOI club with the highest average so far this season is Cork, at just under 4000. UCD, also of the premier division, have an average of 400. The premier division average is 1633.

What standard of football can we ever hope to achieve in LOI, and how likely is it that the standard of football and facilities will entice people to games?

The LoI hasn't really sustained itself, fans are sustaining the clubs! The SSDG at Shels have been putting 5 figure sums into Shels, 400 club at Rovers, 500 club at Harps, Dundalk have something, etc...

Bear in mind UCD's average is bumped up due to probably large away crowds from Pats, Rovers and Bohs.

Facilities don't entice people, Limerick is a prime example.

gimmick

We moved to a Summer season. This had an initial bump in attendences, but it quickly went back to the usual average.

Most clubs have a good portion of seating in their grounds now. This has not enticed any one any further through the gates.

CCFC who I support advertise extremely well. We have gotten between 2500 and 5500 at our games this season. Not sure what else they can do to get more people through the gates.

The fact is our "top level" in football is approximately mid League One in England. Sometimes you will get an anomally like Shells in 2003, Cork City in 2005, Shamrock Rovers in 2011 who rise higher than this level, but that is extremely difficult to sustain for a number of reasons, not least the fact that clubs from UK will be looking to find their latest bargain.

That is not a dig. League One is a bloody good level.

The one thing that needs to be "fixed" is the pathetic fees our clubs receive from abroad. And that is improving year on year as well. There will be no more Kevin Doyle and Kevin Long style bargains heading away.

osarusan

gimmick wrote: »

The one thing that needs to be "fixed" is the pathetic fees our clubs receive from abroad. And that is improving year on year as well. There will be no more Kevin Doyle and Kevin Long style bargains heading away.

Kevin Long was some player, probably better than his brother Shane.

And I wouldn't be too confident about clubs getting better fees - one year contracts are still the lost common, and clubs often can't afford to commit to more than that.

uch

Gavin shels wrote: »

The LoI hasn't really sustained itself, fans are sustaining the clubs! The SSDG at Shels have been putting 5 figure sums into Shels, 400 club at Rovers, 500 club at Harps, Dundalk have something, etc...

Bear in mind UCD's average is bumped up due to probably large away crowds from Pats, Rovers and Bohs.

Facilities don't entice people, Limerick is a prime example.

Agree with most of this but the last line Gav, Facilities is the reason I stopped going to most away games. It's not much to expect to have half decent facilities, such as Clean Toilets, decent cup of tea, something to eat, at grounds for away supporters. I don't know any club, including Rovers that don't fuk up the experience for away fans in some way or other.

gimmick

osarusan wrote: »

Kevin Long was some player, probably better than his brother Shane.

And I wouldn't be too confident about clubs getting better fees - one year contracts are still the lost common, and clubs often can't afford to commit to more than that.

I meant Shane Long, but we lost Kevin Long for a song as well now that you mention it.

djpbarry

Gavin shels wrote: »

Facilities don't entice people, Limerick is a prime example.

It's an extreme example though - nobody's saying Pats would attract 40,000 punters on a weekly basis if they moved to the Aviva. To take the opposite extreme, you're far more likely to attract a guy with his two kids to a game if they've got covered seats to sit in, rather than standing on a grass bank in the rain.

BOHtox

200 people, maybe 300, at Limerick vs Bohs last night. I couldn't make it as my Da works late every second friday and tonight was one. I think it completely discredits two arguments. Firstly the "Build it and they will come" and secondly that Friday is the best day for a game.

A start to the changes I'd make to the league are firstly, extending the season. March-October is simply too short. Mid-Feb to mid/early-Nov is a change I'd make. There's too many occasions where there's 2/3 games in a week or 4 in 10 days or something like that. A lot of average punters would not be able to spend a whole lot of money on travel/tickets and everything else that goes with going to a match when you have games too frequently.

Secondly, I'd move matches to Saturday evenings. Travelling down to Limerick is difficult if you're working 9-5. I think 17:30 games on a Saturday could work and I'd like to see it experimented with for a fair amount of time. I'd say Bohs would have had at least twice, maybe three times, as many fans down in Limerick if the game was today. It makes it easier in terms of travelling down and back if the KO is earlier and the day is more suited.

Not everyone's cup of tea I know but there league does have to change something as it's not sustainable for too much longer at this rate I'm afraid

Saturday evening in Hunky Dory's Park > Friday Night in Limerick :pac:

Richard Hillman

BOHtox wrote: »

200 people, maybe 300, at Limerick vs Bohs last night. I couldn't make it as my Da works late every second friday and tonight was one. I think it completely discredits two arguments. Firstly the "Build it and they will come" and secondly that Friday is the best day for a game.

A start to the changes I'd make to the league are firstly, extending the season. March-October is simply too short. Mid-Feb to mid/early-Nov is a change I'd make. There's too many occasions where there's 2/3 games in a week or 4 in 10 days or something like that. A lot of average punters would not be able to spend a whole lot of money on travel/tickets and everything else that goes with going to a match when you have games too frequently.

Secondly, I'd move matches to Saturday evenings. Travelling down to Limerick is difficult if you're working 9-5. I think 17:30 games on a Saturday could work and I'd like to see it experimented with for a fair amount of time. I'd say Bohs would have had at least twice, maybe three times, as many fans down in Limerick if the game was today. It makes it easier in terms of travelling down and back if the KO is earlier and the day is more suited.

Not everyone's cup of tea I know but there league does have to change something as it's not sustainable for too much longer at this rate I'm afraid

Saturday evening in Hunky Dory's Park > Friday Night in Limerick :pac:

I would greatly disagree with extending the season. The usual cycle of a LOI season in terms of attendances are high attendances at the start of the season, a mid-season dip and then a bump at the end if the team is involved in something.

I think lengthening out the fixtures would prolongue the nothingness in the middle of the season. Most of the games are absolutly meaningless until the last round of games. I would like to see it condensed more, preferably with less games.

Captain Havoc

@BOHtox, another alternative would be to just let the home teams decide which nights to play.

CSF

Captain Havoc wrote: »

@BOHtox, another alternative would be to just let the home teams decide which nights to play.

That option exists. Those who wanted to play Saturdays do. When Dundalk wanted to play Thursdays, they did.