how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

dundalkfc10

djpbarry wrote: »

Ah, come on now. The Aviva was full a couple of months ago to watch a second string Liverpool side.

I agree that most British clubs won’t attract big crowds these days and clubs can't rely on such friendlies for income. But, the bigger clubs could field any old side and tens of thousands will show up to see them.

2nd string once in last how many years, and Liverpool were making money out of that game in the AVIVA, had nothing to do with Rovers asking to play them.

Every other time its U-19 teams.

Celtic U-19s played in Derry not long ago and less than 1500 went.
Chelsea U-19 played in Oriel not too long ago and there wasnt 500 at it
Bray V Man Utd U-19 attracted less than 2000

Id agree if they brought 2nd string teams they could get crowds but they wont and dont, unless they were guaranteed to make money and there not gonna make much money going to play Wexford Youths, Cobh etc....

Dapics

Simples

Integrate the First division and Premier Division allowing 18 teams to compete against eachother.

Let them play eachother twice and have 36 games.

Start the season in August and finish it in April/May.

Broadcast more matches on RTE with lower production value.

Get the FAI to invest more prize money and introduce subsidies for clubs who have a certain attendance and are part-time.

Revamp the youth leagues and youth systems within clubs, with more emphasis on tactical coaching or something along the Ajax way of coaching. Make the youth leagues regionalised into 3/4 regions with a youth cup that actually gets some damn publicity.

NIMAN

Glamour friendlies are really a thing of the past I think. OK so the Liverpool one was the exception to the rule, but there is often talk about bringing 'big' teams to the Brandywell and I simply do not think there is the interest any more for people to come out and watch English or Scottish football teams. There used to be when you never seen them, but now we see them play so often on live TV that the novelty value is gone.

Plus they would never field a 1st team any more, playing their youngsters. Sure the last time Celtic came to the Brandywell even Derry played a 2nd string team!

Derry can't even sell out a small capacity ground for a competitive Europa League game, so what hope is their in bringing over teams for a friendly.

dundalkfc10

Dapics wrote: »

Simples

Integrate the First division and Premier Division allowing 18 teams to compete against eachother.

Let them play eachother twice and have 36 games.

Start the season in August and finish it in April/May.

Broadcast more matches on RTE with lower production value.

Get the FAI to invest more prize money and introduce subsidies for clubs who have a certain attendance and are part-time.

Revamp the youth leagues and youth systems within clubs, with more emphasis on tactical coaching or something along the Ajax way of coaching. Make the youth leagues regionalised into 3/4 regions with a youth cup that actually gets some damn publicity.

Totally agree aboutt the 18 team league but id stay summer soccer.

The bit in bold, God luck with the FAI helping the league with that

Vision of Disorder

Dapics wrote: »

Simples

Integrate the First division and Premier Division allowing 18 teams to compete against eachother.

Let them play eachother twice and have 36 games.

Apologies in advance for being pedantic but an obvious error in your blueprint is that there would be 34 rather than 36 games (before we even look at the Shamrock Rovers vs. Shamrock Rovers B possibilities).

overshoot

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Apologies in advance for being pedantic but an obvious error in your blueprint is that there would be 34 rather than 36 games (before we even look at the Shamrock Rovers vs. Shamrock Rovers B possibilities).

slightly larger issue would be having 19 clubs and a club having a week off (shams B rounds it to 20)... although 19 teams would give 36 games

Vision of Disorder

overshoot wrote: »

slightly larger issue would be having 19 clubs and a club having a week off (shams B rounds it to 20)... although 19 teams would give 36 games

Oh yeah, there are 20 teams at the moment (with Rovers , it's difficult to keep track sometimes.

Richard Hillman

Dapics wrote: »

Simples

Integrate the First division and Premier Division allowing 18 teams to compete against eachother.

Let them play eachother twice and have 36 games.

Start the season in August and finish it in April/May.

Broadcast more matches on RTE with lower production value.

Get the FAI to invest more prize money and introduce subsidies for clubs who have a certain attendance and are part-time.

Revamp the youth leagues and youth systems within clubs, with more emphasis on tactical coaching or something along the Ajax way of coaching. Make the youth leagues regionalised into 3/4 regions with a youth cup that actually gets some damn publicity.

I would stop going to games if we went back to winter football. I had no problem back in the day but it just does not appeal to me now that I have been softened up

The games on RTE do be appalling. Setanta's coverage has a higher production value and the games become slightly more watchable. Overall I think there are too many games on TV. Good games are very much in the minority. Even as somebody that is interested in the league, I turn most of them off after about 20 mins. Its just too bad to watch.

miroslavklose

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

We get their U-19s and feck all turn up. Pats played someone a few weeks back, might have been Aberdeen and their wasnt 200 there, Id imagine Tallaght was the same against Wolves the other night.

There was probably 1200-1500 in Tallaght last night, albeit there was a sizeable contingent from Wolves (and presumably a number of gob****es from Ireland who started supporting Wolves in the past five years because they had Mick and a few Irish players).

djpbarry wrote: »

Ah, come on now. The Aviva was full a couple of months ago to watch a second string Liverpool side.

Yeah, but that's the Aviva. Liverpool XI v Bray at the Carlisle Grounds would attract 1500. Liverpool XI v Bray at the Aviva attracts 40,000. Add to that the Liverpool friendly was a classic bait and switch - advertise a full team (minus World Cup players) and send out the U21 team. Irish people will turn up to anything that's advertised as a big event.

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Even as somebody that is interested in the league, I turn most of them off after about 20 mins. Its just too bad to watch.

I would be reasonably confident you have little to no interest in the league, judging by your posts so far.

djpbarry

Dapics wrote: »

Simples

It really isn’t.

Dapics wrote: »

Integrate the First division and Premier Division allowing 18 teams to compete against eachother.

No argument against combining the two divisions, provided a proper pyramid structure is put in place below the LOI, with a clear path to promotion laid out for any club in the country.

Dapics wrote: »

Start the season in August and finish it in April/May.

Why?

Dapics wrote: »

Broadcast more matches on RTE…

I don’t understand why this will help? I admit that it can be frustrating not being able to watch LOI games here in London because RTE show so few of them, but I’m not sure how screening more games will “improve” the league?

Dapics wrote: »

Get the FAI to invest more prize money and introduce subsidies for clubs …

It’s already been pointed out several times that the FAI’s finances are in a pretty poor state and will be for the foreseeable future.

Dapics wrote: »

Revamp the youth leagues and youth systems within clubs, with more emphasis on tactical coaching or something along the Ajax way of coaching.

Again, wishful thinking, for the simple reason that any player that shows any kind of promise is snapped up by British clubs. Look at the underage international Irish sides – virtually every single one of them plays in the UK. Irish clubs just can’t compete with the lure of the English game, in particular.

djpbarry

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Even as somebody that is interested in the league, I turn most of them off after about 20 mins. Its just too bad to watch.

You’re interested in the league, but you can’t watch a game for more than 20 minutes? That’s a great big contradiction.

Richard Hillman

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re interested in the league, but you can’t watch a game for more than 20 minutes? That’s a great big contradiction.

I follow the league and I go to games. When I am watching a game as a neutral on TV, most of them are awful to watch. Pats-Bohs was decent the other night but that was the first decent TV game I have seen in a long time.

I am interested in the Premier League and La Liga. If the game I am watching is rubbish, I will change the channel. I just tend to do it for most of the LOI games I see on TV.

dundalkfc10

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I follow the league and I go to games. When I am watching a game as a neutral on TV, most of them are awful to watch. Pats-Bohs was decent the other night but that was the first decent TV game I have seen in a long time.

I am interested in the Premier League and La Liga. If the game I am watching is rubbish, I will change the channel. I just tend to do it for most of the LOI games I see on TV.

Id watch a fair amount of Premier league games and last season seen some woeful games on both Sky and BT, one that springs to mind Man Utd V chelsea at the start of the season, 0-0 in one worst games ever

Did you turn that off and the 20 odd other ****e games that were on TV?

Richard Hillman

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Id watch a fair amount of Premier league games and last season seen some woeful games on both Sky and BT, one that springs to mind Man Utd V chelsea at the start of the season, 0-0 in one worst games ever

Did you turn that off and the 20 odd other ****e games that were on TV?

Probably. It depends what else was on TV.

Prop Joe

Would there be a call for some teams to go Amateur instead of spending the money on wages,Pump the money into top class facilities and training conditions for players.

You see with Inter County GAA players they all work and train hard but are really well looked after.I would bet that most Inter county GAA players are as fit if not fitter than LOI players

Would probably only work with younger players though.

srfc d16

Prop Joe wrote: »

Would there be a call for some teams to go Amateur instead of spending the money on wages,Pump the money into top class facilities and training conditions for players.

You see with Inter County GAA players they all work and train hard but are really well looked after.I would bet that most Inter county GAA players are as fit if not fitter than LOI players

Would probably only work with younger players though.

Why would you bet that?
Pardon my ignorance when it comes to GAA but how many games would an intercounty player play in an average season? Not taking in to account the games are 20 minutes shorter which is actually a fair chunk of time.

gimmick

GAA players would be a lot fitter than your average LOI player.

dundalkfc10

srfc d16 wrote: »

Why would you bet that?
Pardon my ignorance when it comes to GAA but how many games would an intercounty player play in an average season? Not taking in to account the games are 20 minutes shorter which is actually a fair chunk of time.

and if its Gaelic Football, a game is more stop start than cricket

The Lost Sheep

Prop Joe wrote: »

Would there be a call for some teams to go Amateur instead of spending the money on wages,Pump the money into top class facilities and training conditions for players.

You see with Inter County GAA players they all work and train hard but are really well looked after.I would bet that most Inter county GAA players are as fit if not fitter than LOI players

Would probably only work with younger players though.

I would agree that most inter county players would be as fit as LOI players but its just guesswork..

srfc d16 wrote: »

Why would you bet that?
Pardon my ignorance when it comes to GAA but how many games would an intercounty player play in an average season? Not taking in to account the games are 20 minutes shorter which is actually a fair chunk of time.

Countys get 7/8 games in league then the playoffs, have minimum of 2 games in championship combined with pre season cups/leagues as well as friendlies they play but inter county players then have countless games at club level and even more if they play 2 codes..

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

and if its Gaelic Football, a game is more stop start than cricket

:pac:

srfc d16

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I would agree that most inter county players would be as fit as LOI players but its just guesswork..

Countys get 7/8 games in league then the playoffs, have minimum of 2 games in championship combined with pre season cups/leagues as well as friendlies they play but inter county players then have countless games at club level and even more if they play 2 codes..
:pac:

Countless games? Complete guesswork so.
Does nobody actually track how many games are played? I see bits in the paper every so often talking about "burnout". If we don't have figures for how many games are played how do we know if people are being burnt out?
My local GAA team has a player on the Dublin team and from speaking to a few friends involved in the club I was surprised to learn that he has played maybe 6 or 7 club games in the last 18 months.

Prop Joe

srfc d16 wrote: »

Countless games? Complete guesswork so.
Does nobody actually track how many games are played?

Every player would be different in Kerry for instance take Stephen O Brien

He has played this season to my knowledge

3 McGrath Cup games for Kerry
7 National League Games for Kerry
2 Munster Championship games for Kerry
1 Senior County Championship game for Kenmare
1 Intermediate Championship game for Kenmare
3 County League games for Kenmare

He will probably play 2 more games with Kerry and 3 more league games with Kenmare plus at least 1 South Kerry Championship match with Kenmare

Total - 17 games played will play at least 23 games


But then look at a guy who would be on a U21 panel also that could be an extra 5/6 games or a guy who plays hurling on top of that could be double that figure.

But i would say most elite GAA players are playing between 23 - 30 games per year

overshoot

in fairness it depends on what level your at. Id imagine a Carlow player wouldnt be as fit as a player with championship aspirations.
David Wash is on the record that he trains harder with Donegal than with league 2 Luton Town which is probably a close enough comparison for LOI

major bill

The GAA fitness argument has been done to death. don't hijack the thread over this ****ty argument,

Prop Joe

major bill wrote: »

The GAA fitness argument has been done to death. don't hijack the thread over this ****ty argument,

I hope that is not directed at me! I was answering a question. :mad:

Anyways,Would a amateur or more than likely a semi - pro league be the way forward?

osarusan

Prop Joe wrote: »

Anyways,Would a amateur or more than likely a semi - pro league be the way forward?

That's what we have at the moment. Plenty of teams in the league (maybe all in the first division apart from Rovers B?) probably wouldn't have even one full-time pro in the team.

uch

Prop Joe wrote: »

I hope that is not directed at me! I was answering a question. :mad:

Anyways,Would a amateur or more than likely a semi - pro league be the way forward?

The Airtricity League is for all intents and purposes, a semi-pro league, there are probably only about 20 players, give or take that play football for a living in it

ch750536

The problem with the league is the lack of quality. The issue with players going overseas (100% to the UK at the moment) isn't the issue as most of the players play in the championship.

Our u19's have a 50/50 split between homegrown and overseas.

We haven't moved forward in 30 years and this means when the customers (which is what paying people are) have an option they choose the better product, one that is fresh and exciting over one that is stale and free of challenges.

Once customers are given better choice then they will start to pay for it, unfortunately this is the important element. With more money less players leave and it gains momentum. Professionalism increases and in turn enticing other players of higher quality.

How do we get there? Easy, change everything we are doing at the moment at the underage level to have a crop of youngsters in 2025 that are exciting, fun players to watch. I'm not talking 1 or 2 but 50, maybe 100 players. Under the current system we fail in many many ways.

An influx of talent that won't all leave the country will mean we slowly start to fix the home game.

osarusan

ch750536 wrote: »

With more money less players leave and it gains momentum. Professionalism increases and in turn enticing other players of higher quality.

Average salary in League 1 was 101,000euros about two years ago. It was 82,000euros in League 2.

LOI will never in a million years be able to offer that kind of wage to more than a handful of players in any sustainable way.

Prop Joe

osarusan wrote: »

Average salary in League 1 was 101,000euros about two years ago. It was 82,000euros in League 2.

LOI will never in a million years be able to offer that kind of wage to more than a handful of players in any sustainable way.

LOI should probably be compared with the Blue Square/Skrill Conference,Not in terms of quality but wages and attendances pretty much even up

djpbarry

ch750536 wrote: »

The problem with the league is the lack of quality.

No, a problem is the perceived lack of quality.

ch750536 wrote: »

We haven't moved forward in 30 years…

The standard of football played in the LOI today is considerably better than it was 30 years ago.

ch750536 wrote: »

How do we get there? Easy, change everything we are doing at the moment at the underage level to have a crop of youngsters in 2025 that are exciting, fun players to watch.

And how exactly do you plan to keep these kids in Ireland and stop them all moving to UK clubs?

major bill

Prop Joe wrote: »

I hope that is not directed at me! I was answering a question. :mad:

Anyways,Would a amateur or more than likely a semi - pro league be the way forward?

No not directly at you...just in general, its an argument that has been done over and over

ch750536

djpbarry wrote: »

No, a problem is the perceived lack of quality.
The standard of football played in the LOI today is considerably better than it was 30 years ago.

We'll have to disagree on that one. I see lots of 14 \ 15 yr olds who have little control of the ball but can run really fast and kick the ball a long way.

djpbarry wrote: »

And how exactly do you plan to keep these kids in Ireland and stop them all moving to UK clubs?

Just a numbers game. We have a huge number of kids involved in soccer, they just leave early due to our lack of long term objectives. When we get more inclusive and do things for development of the player then we will start to get a lot more quality players coming through.

England has recognised the importance of large numbers of technically capable kids and they have recently made changes. Pretty soon our kids will have less options of overseas and as we have seen, they don't cut it in other european leagues.

So England outgrows us by developing a better class of player and our kids are left with less option of where to go to. Would be nice to hit the floor running when this happens.

Corholio

ch750536 wrote: »

We'll have to disagree on that one. I see lots of 14 \ 15 yr olds who have little control of the ball but can run really fast and kick the ball a long way.

.

What has 14/15 yr olds got to do with the LOI?

It's better than you think, I can guarantee it.

ch750536

osarusan wrote: »

Average salary in League 1 was 101,000euros about two years ago. It was 82,000euros in League 2.

LOI will never in a million years be able to offer that kind of wage to more than a handful of players in any sustainable way.

In the current state, no. But why does the league have no money? In my opinion the product does not represent value for money, nothing more than that.

I don't ever expect it to compete with the Premiership, different markets. I do expect us to compete with Slovakia who have 100% of their national team from home grown players or Bosnia with a huge number of home grown players in tier 1 football. Belgium have the same issue as us, placed between France, Germany & Netherlands, do you hear them bitching? Their national team had 11 players in the UCL last season & a healthy home league.

We have the resources, we just keep making excuses. Its our fault, nobody elses. This means we can fix it.

ch750536

Corholio wrote: »

What has 14/15 yr olds got to do with the LOI?

It's better than you think, I can guarantee it.

You don't see a link between the quality of 14\15 yr olds and the quality of the league?

I do agree that the league has moved a lot in the last 30 years, problem is that we are doing the same thing as 30 years ago, just better.

The rest of the word changed what they did.

Corholio

ch750536 wrote: »

You don't see a link between the quality of 14\15 yr olds and the quality of the league?

I do agree that the league has moved a lot in the last 30 years, problem is that we are doing the same thing as 30 years ago, just better.

The rest of the word changed what they did.

I see lots of 14/15 yr olds who have infinitely better training than I had at that age. Of course things can be done better, most countries you can say that, only have to look across the water to see that.

Hardly the rest of the world either, the few revolutions in football are usually well lauded because it isn't the majority. Germany and Spain for example. 14/15 yr olds are absolutely nothing to do with the why a lot of people don't give the league a chance.

djpbarry

ch750536 wrote: »

We'll have to disagree on that one. I see lots of 14 \ 15 yr olds who have little control of the ball but can run really fast and kick the ball a long way.

I’ve no idea what that has to do with anything I said.

ch750536 wrote: »

Just a numbers game. We have a huge number of kids involved in soccer, they just leave early due to our lack of long term objectives.

No, they leave because they dream of playing in the Premiership. It’s extremely difficult to compete with that.

ch750536 wrote: »

When we get more inclusive and do things for development of the player then we will start to get a lot more quality players coming through.

There are already plenty of quality players coming through. The problem is they all get hoovered up by British clubs at 15 or 16.

ch750536 wrote: »

England has recognised the importance of large numbers of technically capable kids and they have recently made changes. Pretty soon our kids will have less options of overseas and as we have seen, they don't cut it in other european leagues.

What other European leagues? British and Irish players, as a rule, virtually never look outside of England and Scotland for their next move.

ch750536 wrote: »

So England outgrows us by developing a better class of player and our kids are left with less option of where to go to.

Oh that’s why the Premiership is full to the brim with quality English players.

England is suffering from exactly the same problem that Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are suffering from with regard to the English top flight. Twenty or thirty years ago, the Premiership/First Division was composed almost entirely of British and Irish players. However, with the deregulation of the international transfer market, British and Irish players are now competing with players from all over the world and they are now struggling to get game time in the Premiership. The short-term solution to this problem, from an Irish perspective, would be to encourage Irish players to look beyond the UK to develop their careers – plenty of other quality leagues in Europe besides the Premiership and Championship.

ch750536 wrote: »

In my opinion the product does not represent value for money, nothing more than that.

Ticket prices for LOI games are very reasonable when compared to England, so that argument doesn’t really fly.

ch750536 wrote: »

I do expect us to compete with Slovakia who have 100% of their national team from home grown players or Bosnia with a huge number of home grown players in tier 1 football.

You’re aware that Pats knocked Bosnia’s Siroki Brijeg out of the Europa League a couple of years ago?

ch750536 wrote: »

Belgium have the same issue as us, placed between France, Germany & Netherlands, do you hear them bitching? Their national team had 11 players in the UCL last season & a healthy home league.

It’s not like the Belgian league just sprung up overnight - it was one of Europe’s top leagues in the 70s and 80s. The top clubs there have that history behind them.

ch750536 wrote: »

We have the resources, we just keep making excuses. Its our fault, nobody elses. This means we can fix it.

How?

ch750536 wrote: »

You don't see a link between the quality of 14\15 yr olds and the quality of the league?

Only if all of these 14/15 year olds you see, who are apparently very limited technically, all go on to play in the LOI. Which I doubt.

ch750536 wrote: »

I do agree that the league has moved a lot in the last 30 years, problem is that we are doing the same thing as 30 years ago, just better.

You said a few short posts ago that the league hadn’t moved forward in 30 years?

ch750536

djpbarry wrote: »

I’ve no idea what that has to do with anything I said.
No, they leave because they dream of playing in the Premiership. It’s extremely difficult to compete with that.
There are already plenty of quality players coming through. The problem is they all get hoovered up by British clubs at 15 or 16.
What other European leagues? British and Irish players, as a rule, virtually never look outside of England and Scotland for their next move.
Oh that’s why the Premiership is full to the brim with quality English players.

England is suffering from exactly the same problem that Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are suffering from with regard to the English top flight. Twenty or thirty years ago, the Premiership/First Division was composed almost entirely of British and Irish players. However, with the deregulation of the international transfer market, British and Irish players are now competing with players from all over the world and they are now struggling to get game time in the Premiership. The short-term solution to this problem, from an Irish perspective, would be to encourage Irish players to look beyond the UK to develop their careers – plenty of other quality leagues in Europe besides the Premiership and Championship.
Ticket prices for LOI games are very reasonable when compared to England, so that argument doesn’t really fly.
You’re aware that Pats knocked Bosnia’s Siroki Brijeg out of the Europa League a couple of years ago?
It’s not like the Belgian league just sprung up overnight - it was one of Europe’s top leagues in the 70s and 80s. The top clubs there have that history behind them.
How?
Only if all of these 14/15 year olds you see, who are apparently very limited technically, all go on to play in the LOI. Which I doubt.
You said a few short posts ago that the league hadn’t moved forward in 30 years?

You seem to be looking for an argument so I'll let you have one on your own.

ch750536

Corholio wrote: »

I see lots of 14/15 yr olds who have infinitely better training than I had at that age. Of course things can be done better, most countries you can say that, only have to look across the water to see that.

Yes but training in the same thing. My own battle as a coach is against kick & rush and my experience is that clubs don't want player development, they want early wins at the age of 8. Teaching kids kick & rush or they are subbed at that age is where it goes wrong. No matter how well you coach kick & rush it's going to mean nothing by the age of 13.[/QUOTE]

Corholio wrote: »

Hardly the rest of the world either, the few revolutions in football are usually well lauded because it isn't the majority. Germany and Spain for example. 14/15 yr olds are absolutely nothing to do with the why a lot of people don't give the league a chance.

Yes, rest of the world was a little all encompassing, I agree. Many countries in Europe have changed the way they coach kids, I'd estimate maybe 60%. This change came about as the skills needed to play how they wanted were not there. England were one of the latest to recognise this. The problem we have is that although the FAI recognise this they are powerless as they don't run the schoolboy game. We are the only country in Europe where the national body is not in control of the development of kids. This is where it falls apart.

djpbarry

ch750536 wrote: »

You seem to be looking for an argument so I'll let you have one on your own.

It's called having a discussion.

Look, I don't understand your argument. In my opinion, the problem is not that Ireland doesn't produce quality players (it clearly does), the problem is that they often leave at an early age for the UK and never play in the domestic league. That is the big difference between Ireland and other European countries.

Now, you're talking about the standard of coaching being the problem, that kids are being encouraged to "kick and rush". That may be true in some cases (it certainly was at some of the clubs I played at when I was a kid), but the standard of coaching in the LOI is obviously considerably better than that. I find it very hard to believe that while the Pats senior team is being coached to play attractive, passing football, the underage sides are being encouraged to "kick and rush", so I don't really understand your argument.

legendary.xix

If Galway gain promotion, I think it will be a positive for the league to have the 4 main urban areas in the Premier Division. The league cannot be built around the large urban areas alone. There does not appear to be any blueprint nor ambition from the league to expand the league to more areas of the country. The league itself lacks a connect with the supposed wider association football supporting public. Despite the fact that non-league clubs do not dominate the FAI Cup, people fail in some ways to see the league being top of the tree in the country. There is a lack of vibrancy about the league. Naturally clubs cannot be magic-ed up now or anything like that. There was a regionalised third tier there for 4 years. During those 4 years it had 8 first teams along with Premier reserve teams. The current First Division has only 7 first teams. A big mistake was made in getting rid of that third tier. I know some premier clubs were against having to field a second team. Some teams who were in the first division fielded a second team despite not being required to e.g. Finn Harps and Limerick. It's something which will have to be looked at again. Getting more regions involved in the league. The Premier itself possibly should look at expansion to 16 teams. Have a regionalised second tier below it then with the remaining clubs, a number of B teams and any other clubs interested in joining that tier. The league should be looking to build. That lack of ambition and vibrancy is not good for the league.

Ferris_Bueller

Fair point about the league expanding to more towns/areas, but if it did would there be interest in these areas to support a LoI team? I'm unsure. Look at Kildare County, Sporting Fingal, Kilkenny City etc. who struggled to attract crowds despite being in areas you would imagine there to be a large target audience. I agree that there needs to be something done to the first division because it is an embarrassment as it stands, even if you could get it back up to ten teams it would be a start.

Last nights match between Dundalk and Cork should be something to aspire to for the moment, great atmosphere, lots of publicity, big crowd.. If we could get crowds of that size every week for the teams who were top of the league it would be fantastic, the problem is though the crowds seem to disappear when they're not top of the league. You are right in saying that a lot of people view junior clubs as rivals to LoI clubs rather than the LoI clubs being the top of the pyramid, I think one of the biggest problems in this country is the power that the junior and schoolboy clubs have, if there was a structure in place where the LoI clubs were clearly at the top of the pile it might help, but as it stands the structure is all over the place, the fact that a lot of top LSL/MSL clubs wouldn't even want to compete in the LoI is surely proof something is wrong.

howiya

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Last nights match between Dundalk and Cork should be something to aspire to for the moment, great atmosphere, lots of publicity, big crowd.. If we could get crowds of that size every week for the teams who were top of the league it would be fantastic, the problem is though the crowds seem to disappear when they're not top of the league.

How likely is it that Oriel Park will have the same capacity for the first game of next season as it did last night?

Yes it was a winner take all and Cork brought a big crowd but the reality is that less people will be able to watch Dundalk's first home game of the season as defending champions than the amount of people who watched them win the league and that doesn't make sense.

Credit to the club for reacting to the demand for tickets and installing the temporary stand. Would love to see them keep it and build on the massive interest that last night generated.

overshoot

agree with everything there legendary. the junior intermediate clubs see the loi teams as rivals not a step forward for their players. Given there is no pyramid structure in Ireland its quite a strange scenario in some ways. We played Avondale in the cup who have won the last 4 intermediate cups, it was a draw away but they looked almost as out of their depth in Finn Park as we did against St. Pats.

We have continued to field a reserve side in USL, its not exploited like it should be but it has been useful for people coming back from injury u19s progressing. However in recent weeks the league has taken the decision to return to Winter football so im not sure if it is still viable given our tight budget, u19/17 leagues and the academy.

despite the great spectacle last night, the league is limping along and needs a major revamp. if something isnt done soon the already farcical first division really wont be at all viable soon. The financial cost to go from regional intermediate/junior is far to great for those clubs to risk which is the other issue.

legendary.xix

It's a positive clubs appear to be more financially sound. The 8 clubs that were in the defunct third tier didn't run into financial difficulties. Lol clubs with the support of the FAI need to be central in their communities for the development of the game e.g. running soccer camps for kids during the summer.

It's the lack of ambition to expand the league that is most disappointing. They should carry out a study into what conditions would suit to get clubs from more areas involved in the league. The only environment that suits would appear to be some form of a regionalised tier with B teams being optional. Shamrock Rovers B have participated in this season's First Division. If the two national divisions remain above a regionalised tier, first teams or B teams could gain promotion to the First Division through a play-off against the last placed team. Registration costs would have to be lower for the third tier, part of the reason then that promotion can only be through a play-off.

djpbarry

legendary.xix wrote: »

It's the lack of ambition to expand the league that is most disappointing. They should carry out a study into what conditions would suit to get clubs from more areas involved in the league.

There's no need for a study - the barriers are obvious. Get rid of the ridiculous fees for competing in the league (for the first division, at least) and put in place a clear pyramid structure, so that there is a clear path for every club in the country to gain entry to the LOI, and that will generate interest among a wider range of clubs.

legendary.xix

djpbarry wrote: »

There's no need for a study - the barriers are obvious. Get rid of the ridiculous fees for competing in the league (for the first division, at least) and put in place a clear pyramid structure, so that there is a clear path for every club in the country to gain entry to the LOI, and that will generate interest among a wider range of clubs.

I'd agree but a pyramid structure is unlikely when the league is on a different season of calendar year. People with the power in the lower levels haven't any interest in change and it won't come about. The A Championship was your typical Irish solution to an Irish problem. The main thing that ended it was the desire of some Premier clubs not to field a second team. As I say - some First Division clubs did field a second team despite not being obliged to. Ending the tier seemed a regressive step. They could at least have even tried it as a single national division with all interested LoI clubs, without any obligation, and any first teams from around the country that met certain criteria and had ambitions of working their way towards LoI level both on and off the park.
I have sympathy for the likes of Castlebar Celtic, Carlow FC, Tullamore Town and Tralee Dynamos. They embraced the third tier and were happy enough to get on with the game at that level while having ambition to work towards the LoI. Massive mistake to let it go.

legendary.xix

The U19 league has 3 outside of the LoI community - Letterkenny Rovers, Mervue United and Salthill Devon. The two Galway clubs of course have exited the LoI for Galway FC's arrival.

The clubs that flirted with the LoI in the A Championship - Tralee, Castlebar, Fanad, Carlow and Tullamore are no where to be seen. Have they been so scarred by the plug being pulled on the third tier that they are gone for good?

We're into the fourth season of the U19 league. Has it been a success? It's around nearly as long as the defunct A Championship at this stage. It does not seem to have encouraged A Championship clubs to get involved. How are the majority of clubs coping without a level for players out of the U19s? Any league summit should be looking at issues like these. I've heard the FAI were looking for "expressions of interest in joining the league" a discussion/forum on the lack of interest in joining the league might be more appropriate!

Dundalk FC Youth Development Officer Martin Connolly comments on the U19 league coming in place of the A Championship (August 2011):
Jury out
“The U19 League takes over from the A-Championship and the U20s,” Connolly continued. “The A-Championship is over around the end of August and the U19 League will kick in straight away then. The jury is very much out on this. The first year is going to tell a tale. You have the people that say it’s good to get the players younger playing in a competitive league. But the problem now is that there is not going to be a Reserve League. For your first team that need to get players back after injuries, suspensions or want to try players out, where do you go if they’re over 19? I was at the seminar in the Aviva Stadium a number of weeks ago and it was asked if there were any steps to go back to the U21 League (where you could play three overage players) or at some stage have a Reserve League. And as Fran Gavin quite emphatically said, ‘this is the only show in town’.

UEFA model
“This is being driven by the FAI,” Martin added, “by Wim Koevermans, who is the FAI High Performance Director, Fran Gavin, the Airtricity League Director, and a number of people that say this a model that has been put forward by UEFA all around Europe, and they want to give it a go. I think we need to give it a real pop, which we’re going to do this year and see where it takes us then.” Connolly is unsure about the move, which means at the end of the U19 season an overage player would only be able to play with the first team. “That’s the problem that we have,” he said. “If at the end of the U19 League, a young guy looks to have potential but he’s just not ready to go into the first-team squad, what do you do with him?

John Delaney on Meath (July 2010):
Regarding the possibility of a team from Meath competing in the League of Ireland, the chief executive had very clearly defined ideas on the matter.

"I would like to see it happen, but it would have to be supported from within the county by all the clubs.

"Tralee Dynamos in Kerry play in the A Championship and it's important for the FAI to get a good geographical spread.

"I have no doubt that there are good footballers in Meath and the one way that I think it would work would be if it was done as county Meath team.

"It's probably something that would have to be discussed amongst the clubs within the MDL with a view to getting everyone in the county behind the team.

"Initially, perhaps, Meath could play in a one-off competition as a representative team, but not in a league-style format where the team would be in action on a weekly basis.

"That's all down to the FIFA rulebook at the moment," he concluded.

SantryRed

The league needs the LSL/MSL/USL/CSL to join to provide a structured route to the first division. The First Division should then also be regionalised with a 16-18 team Premier Division. But this just isn't going to happen. The league is doomed and will never be a force in the country.

The Lost Sheep

SantryRed wrote: »

The league needs the LSL/MSL/USL/CSL to join to provide a structured route to the first division. The First Division should then also be regionalised with a 16-18 team Premier Division. But this just isn't going to happen. The league is doomed and will never be a force in the country.

That's a good idea. Do it like they do in rugby, have the 4 provincial league winners playoff for place in national league but do we really need a 16-18 team top flight?
The league isn't doomed but would be if that ever happened. There should be a max of 10-12 teams per division