how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

SantryRed

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

That's a good idea. Do it like they do in rugby, have the 4 provincial league winners playoff for place in national league but do we really need a 16-18 team top flight?
The league isn't doomed but would be if that ever happened. There should be a max of 10-12 teams per division

Playing each other 3 times a season is ridiculously and hilariously unfair. The whole concept is a disaster and I'd love to know if any other league operates in this way.

Also, playing 3/4 times a season is completely ruining some spectacles. The derbies are becoming less and less important as you know you're playing again in 2 months. Throw in the 2 cups and the Setanta too, you have teams playing each other 5/6 times a season.

Get it back to where teams only play twice a year, and it ensures that there isn't as much familiarity and therefore not as much cancelling each other out as they get used to playing with one another.

overshoot

just on Fanad legendary, they competed in the u19 league until this season. The Northern Division was previously made up of Derry, Harps, Letterkenny, Fanad and Dundalk so traveling was much less of an issue than the new format. I do prefer the new format as having relegation with the age limit means you could have an excellent team in D1 one year and relatively poor or perhaps more appropriate young the next in the elite.

in the end the jump from regional to loi is a massive risk and financial gamble. 100k keeps coming up as the figure to run an amateur side. unless you have a backer willing to go the long haul its not going to work. I think Wexford are doing a good job but has Kevin Doyle given a helping hand twice? (not that most loi clubs are financial models either).

If regional clubs are going to progress, I said it last year, just turn D1 into the A championship. The introduction of shams B dismantled any illusion that it wasnt a farce (then again out of sight out of mind). 19 clubs is not enough to sustain 2 tiers in the present format. Im sure uefa could still be sold on it as a second national tier, the FAI would have to lose out in 100k or more of league entry fees however.

the other issue, if the regional clubs dont want to join, how do you get them to row in behind the LOI clubs? the LOI clubs are going to have to start offering something. what if they started saying you can have 30% of the transfer fee if little johnny goes to england in so many years (as opposed to 10% or whatever it is by default). Lets face it very few LOI clubs have got to cash in on player movement anyway so a bigger percentage of nothing is still nothing.

Richard Hillman

SantryRed wrote: »

Playing each other 3 times a season is ridiculously and hilariously unfair. The whole concept is a disaster and I'd love to know if any other league operates in this way.

Also, playing 3/4 times a season is completely ruining some spectacles. The derbies are becoming less and less important as you know you're playing again in 2 months. Throw in the 2 cups and the Setanta too, you have teams playing each other 5/6 times a season.

Get it back to where teams only play twice a year, and it ensures that there isn't as much familiarity and therefore not as much cancelling each other out as they get used to playing with one another.

I get what you are saying but you are essentially swapping your big games from games against Finn Harps, Wexford and so on. The purist would prefer the 2 derby games a season but the regular punter wants more big games of importance.

If money was a bit tight one week or there was something of interest on a Friday night, I would be more inclined to miss a game against the smaller teams rather than a derby game. Even if they are 3 times a season (even 4 counting cups)

tastyt

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I get what you are saying but you are essentially swapping your big games from games against Finn Harps, Wexford and so on. The purist would prefer the 2 derby games a season but the regular punter wants more big games of importance.

If money was a bit tight one week or there was something of interest on a Friday night, I would be more inclined to miss a game against the smaller teams rather than a derby game. Even if they are 3 times a season (even 4 counting cups)

I don't know, I think in general attendances would improve. You'd have one home derby a year to really look forward to, one trip to cork, Galway, Derry etc. And the smaller clubs like wexford and their fans/communities would feel part of a big league with visits of ' glamour ' clubs like rovers or pats or whoever. I think the demise of clubs like Kilkenny city and Monaghan was in part due to the public in these areas not even getting the chance to go and see their teams try to turn over one of the big boys a few times a year at least.

The chance for local kids to see these teams and get excited about Irish football is very important too. I also think a return to winter football and the scrapping of the current Oscar traynor format. Instead I believe the top 8 Oscar traynor teams should play in both the fai and league cups. Again that would open up the opportunity of rovers facing a trip to maybe Tipperary or mayo in the cups and a buzz and chance to wake up the general public in these forgotten areas to senior football.

Ferris_Bueller

Would some of the top teams in the LSL even be interested in being part of a pyramid structure that could lead to them playing in the Premier division though? My knowledge of the LSL wouldn't be the best to be fair, but I always got the impression that some of the bigger LSL clubs who are also successful underage would have no desire to be a part of the league of Ireland. Again I'm not sure why this is, but I imagine it comes down to finances and that a lot of them would probably be better off not being involved in the LoI.

A pyramid structure all the way down would be fantastic for football in this country, it could help with a lot of the issues Irish football faces, but as it stands it doesn't seem like it could ever happen.

Gavin "shels"

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Would some of the top teams in the LSL even be interested in being part of a pyramid structure that could lead to them playing in the Premier division though? My knowledge of the LSL wouldn't be the best to be fair, but I always got the impression that some of the bigger LSL clubs who are also successful underage would have no desire to be a part of the league of Ireland. Again I'm not sure why this is, but I imagine it comes down to finances and that a lot of them would probably be better off not being involved in the LoI.

A pyramid structure all the way down would be fantastic for football in this country, it could help with a lot of the issues Irish football faces, but as it stands it doesn't seem like it could ever happen.

The huge stumbling block for LSL, MSL and the rest would be the near 20k to register in the League and upgrading their facilities. No team in their right mind would join the League as it is and fork out 20k upfront!

Ferris_Bueller

Gavin shels wrote: »

The huge stumbling block for LSL, MSL and the rest would be the near 20k to register in the League and upgrading their facilities. No team in their right mind would join the League as it is and fork out 20k upfront!

You would probably need to decrease cost of entry in order to attract clubs then, it really is a joke that the prize money is not that much more than the cost to enter the league, how do they expect teams to want to join?

As a previous poster said, what does the 20k that each team pays actually go towards? Surely it couldn't be that expensive to run the league the way they currently do.

Prop Joe

The winners of LSL,MSL etc.. should get free entry for the first year into Div.1

doncarlos

Nobody has mentioned merging clubs in a few pages

djpbarry

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

A pyramid structure all the way down would be fantastic for football in this country, it could help with a lot of the issues Irish football faces, but as it stands it doesn't seem like it could ever happen.

A compromise could be put in place. For example, suppose the winners of the LSL, MSL, etc. weren't automatically put forward for promotion to the First Division, but were instead invited to compete for a place. Any club that wished to stay put could do so, but any club that wanted to gain promotion would know they would have the opportunity if they won their respective regional league.

CSF

djpbarry wrote: »

A compromise could be put in place. For example, suppose the winners of the LSL, MSL, etc. weren't automatically put forward for promotion to the First Division, but were instead invited to compete for a place. Any club that wished to stay put could do so, but any club that wanted to gain promotion would know they would have the opportunity if they won their respective regional league.

Nah to be honest I think if you're going down that route you need a formal pyramid. Teams in those leagues already have that option to be honest if they meet licensing.

dan1895

doncarlos wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned merging clubs in a few pages

Think there's been a mod warning that anyone who does is banned, that's how stupid an idea it is.

dundalkfc10

dan1895 wrote: »

Think there's been a mod warning that anyone who does is banned, that's how stupid an idea it is.

The same should be done with the franchise idea!

upandcumming

SantryRed wrote: »

Playing each other 3 times a season is ridiculously and hilariously unfair. The whole concept is a disaster and I'd love to know if any other league operates in this way.

Also, playing 3/4 times a season is completely ruining some spectacles. The derbies are becoming less and less important as you know you're playing again in 2 months. Throw in the 2 cups and the Setanta too, you have teams playing each other 5/6 times a season.

Get it back to where teams only play twice a year, and it ensures that there isn't as much familiarity and therefore not as much cancelling each other out as they get used to playing with one another.

Austria and Croatia off the top of my head!

legendary.xix

Dundalk FC Youth Development Officer Martin Connolly wrote:

“The U19 League takes over from the A-Championship and the U20s,” Connolly continued. “The A-Championship is over around the end of August and the U19 League will kick in straight away then. The jury is very much out on this. The first year is going to tell a tale. You have the people that say it’s good to get the players younger playing in a competitive league. But the problem now is that there is not going to be a Reserve League. For your first team that need to get players back after injuries, suspensions or want to try players out, where do you go if they’re over 19? I was at the seminar in the Aviva Stadium a number of weeks ago and it was asked if there were any steps to go back to the U21 League (where you could play three overage players) or at some stage have a Reserve League. And as Fran Gavin quite emphatically said, ‘this is the only show in town’.

From the comment above from within the LoI community, an U21 league with three overage players appears the best option. The FAI do not appear to support the idea. For this to happen, it will need to be driven by the clubs. Hopefully the likes of Dundalk and Cork will push for such a league in the next few years. The implementation of the U19 model is understandable but should not mean the exclusion of an underage league between it and senior level. It's the sort of level that should suit some third level institutions as well even if they do not seek becoming part of the League of Ireland as full members.

SantryRed

upandcumming wrote: »

Austria and Croatia off the top of my head!

They both play each other 4 times a year. Not 3. 3 is where it is unfair.

legendary.xix

SantryRed wrote: »

They both play each other 4 times a year. Not 3. 3 is where it is unfair.

The Danish league has 12 teams - 33 match season. Moldovan league is the same.
The LoI tried out a 10 team Premier - 36 games but the clubs were not for it and they reverted back. In fairness the fixtures are reversed the following season. Support isn't there for splitting the division like they do in Scotland. It's not ideal but it's the reality of the situation for the moment.

Fr Tod Umptious

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

The same should be done with the franchise idea!

I think that sort of talk is banned too.

My preference, total realignment of European football with pan European leagues based on geography and standard.

dundalkfc10

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think that sort of talk is banned too.

My preference, total realignment of European football with pan European leagues based on geography and standard.

?

legendary.xix

John Delaney was on Today FM this morning. He was asked about the league he described as a problem child. He stands over the comment regards when the FAI took over the league. He said the clubs collectively were losing €7m a year. He said after the hard steps of implementing regulation that the clubs collectively broke even last year. He made a point that if he was running a club in the league he would look to build up connections with the schoolboy teams in the area.

anncoates

legendary.xix wrote: »

He made a point that if he was running a club in the league he would look to build up connections with the schoolboy teams in the area.

The big schoolboy teams detest the LOI trying to get on their "turf".

JD is the head of the football association. Why doesn't he try to address this issue?

djpbarry

CSF wrote: »

Nah to be honest I think if you're going down that route you need a formal pyramid.

But that's what I'm talking about. Put the pyramid in place, but you make progress up the pyramid optional – a club doesn’t have to move up a level if they don’t want to. That should keep everyone happy.

djpbarry

legendary.xix wrote: »

He made a point that if he was running a club in the league he would look to build up connections with the schoolboy teams in the area.

The guy’s living in La La Land. Does he honestly think the likes of Crumlin Utd are going to let their next Robbie Keane go to Pats or Shams?

anncoates

djpbarry wrote: »

Does he honestly think the likes of Crumlin Utd are going to let their next Robbie Keane go to Pats or Shams?

Nope but it's hardly helping football development in this country when the top schoolboy clubs are basically battery farms with no fallback/connection to the highest domestic football levels.

tastyt

djpbarry wrote: »

The guy’s living in La La Land. Does he honestly think the likes of Crumlin Utd are going to let their next Robbie Keane go to Pats or Shams?

I wonder if the loi clubs had to give 50% of any sell on clause to the schoolboy club the player came from would it encourage more cooperation from the schoolboy leagues??

dan1895

Don't know where else to put this
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/some-grounds-havent-had-a-lick-of-paint-since-i-left-30706525.html?utm_source=indoshare&utm_medium=socialoremail&utm_campaign=indoshare

legendary.xix

dan1895 wrote: »

Don't know where else to put this
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/some-grounds-havent-had-a-lick-of-paint-since-i-left-30706525.html?utm_source=indoshare&utm_medium=socialoremail&utm_campaign=indoshare

Fahey is in a good position to comment.

Gavin "shels"

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

As a previous poster said, what does the 20k that each team pays actually go towards? Surely it couldn't be that expensive to run the league the way they currently do.

Nothing... sure if you combined all the 20k paid it amounts to less than the combined prize money in both Leagues...

Zebra3

djpbarry wrote: »

The guy’s living in La La Land. Does he honestly think the likes of Crumlin Utd are going to let their next Robbie Keane go to Pats or Shams?

Rich la la land.

legendary.xix

Gavin shels wrote: »

Nothing... sure if you combined all the 20k paid it amounts to less than the combined prize money in both Leagues...

Any idea on a decent estimate on the costs of a First Division club for the season? Lets say for example Carlow FC were to enter the First Division. What financial backing would get them through a season?

Zebra3

legendary.xix wrote: »

Any idea on a decent estimate on the costs of a First Division club for the season? Lets say for example Carlow FC were to enter the First Division. What financial backing would get them through a season?

Bare minimum I'd say it'd cost them two hundred grand.

19k (almost 10% to join), and with all amateur set up and volunteers, you'd still easily clock up another 180 grand.

Omackeral

Touched on this in the play-off thread.

A good vibrant provincial spread is good for the League. With Galway back and in the Premier coming off a near 3000 live gate, hopefully their fortunes will go up too. If a good load of those who were there tonight come back in Spring, we could be onto something good. Puls it's a very attractive away trip. Cork have had savage numbers all season, hopefully the Market Fields can spur the people of Limerick to get onside too. Rovers have a top of the range stadium in Tallaght. Dundalk are defending champs and historically it's a good football town. Longford Town have the buzz going in their part of the Midlands with their promotion. Add in a successful season for Derry and Pat's and that's a potential nice spread IMO.

dreamers75

tastyt wrote: »

I wonder if the loi clubs had to give 50% of any sell on clause to the schoolboy club the player came from would it encourage more cooperation from the schoolboy leagues??

They have to pay a grand for every player, its why the under age teams are all over the u19/18 and 17 league to ensure they get the money. It helps everyone and we will see benefits of in the next 2 seasons.

gimmick

Is this the best geographical spread LOI has ever had?

Omackeral

2 Munster
2 Connaght
1 Ulster
1 Midlands
3 Dublin City
3 Eastern Riviera

legendary.xix

gimmick wrote: »

Is this the best geographical spread LOI has ever had?

Best in over 20 years. 4 large urban areas represented in top flight. Realistically Galway are looking at half of tonight's crowd on a regular basis. Should be a popular away day.

Rumours Pat's and Cork were looking at entering B teams. Rovers B then looking to pull out. All about the B's!

dreamers75

How to fix the league etc:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/some-grounds-havent-had-a-lick-of-paint-since-i-left-30706525.html?utm_source=indoshare&utm_medium=socialoremail&utm_campaign=indoshare

Faheys interview will piss off some but hes not far wrong.

hjkl

dreamers75 wrote: »

How to fix the league etc:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/some-grounds-havent-had-a-lick-of-paint-since-i-left-30706525.html?utm_source=indoshare&utm_medium=socialoremail&utm_campaign=indoshare

Faheys interview will piss off some but hes not far wrong.

I don't know how that interview could piss anyone off. He's completely right, most of the grounds in this league are a disgrace.

Zebra3

dreamers75 wrote: »

How to fix the league etc:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/some-grounds-havent-had-a-lick-of-paint-since-i-left-30706525.html?utm_source=indoshare&utm_medium=socialoremail&utm_campaign=indoshare

Faheys interview will piss off some but hes not far wrong.

Stuff he's pointing out like the showers are unacceptable.

I assume properly working showers with hot water are part of the licensing, sad that it would seem they should be tested before every game and if not working, a warning, followed by a fine if not fixed for the next home match.

dreamers75

frimpong wrote: »

I don't know how that interview could piss anyone off. He's completely right, most of the grounds in this league are a disgrace.

You would be surpised at how defensive LOI fans are of their clubs.............

Dempsey

Improving the quality of player coming through the junior, youth & underage structures is the cornerstone of improving the quality of player in the league. To do that requires improving the coaching & support structures. The first thing people will say is that all this will do is increase the rate of which young players will hop the pond to english youth structures.

They would be right but this is where good coaching and support structures would also come into play. These should be pointing out the huge shortcomings in the British youth development structure rather than telling lads to go over for the money no matter how it turns out which they currently do. There is alot of short term focus at the expense of long term gain and their gameplan is more like farming players by the numbers and rely on statistics and dance around the maypole when one of their players breakthrough. Success/monetary gain follows proper football development, unless you are the EPL where you just skip to the finished product.

dreamers75

Dempsey wrote: »

Improving the quality of player coming through the junior, youth & underage structures is the cornerstone of improving the quality of player in the league. To do that requires improving the coaching & support structures. The first thing people will say is that all this will do is increase the rate of which young players will hop the pond to english youth structures.

They would be right but this is where good coaching and support structures would also come into play. These should be pointing out the huge shortcomings in the British youth development structure rather than telling lads to go over for the money no matter how it turns out which they currently do. There is alot of short term focus at the expense of long term gain and their gameplan is more like farming players by the numbers and rely on statistics and dance around the maypole when one of their players breakthrough. Success/monetary gain follows proper football development, unless you are the EPL where you just skip to the finished product.

Young lad signed for City recently from Clondalkin, signed a 10 year deal. Uncle and Brother moving over with him.

hes 12.

Dempsey

dreamers75 wrote: »

Young lad signed for City recently from Clondalkin, signed a 10 year deal. Uncle and Brother moving over with him.

hes 12.

:eek:

tastyt

Dempsey wrote: »

Improving the quality of player coming through the junior, youth & underage structures is the cornerstone of improving the quality of player in the league. To do that requires improving the coaching & support structures. The first thing people will say is that all this will do is increase the rate of which young players will hop the pond to english youth structures.

They would be right but this is where good coaching and support structures would also come into play. These should be pointing out the huge shortcomings in the British youth development structure rather than telling lads to go over for the money no matter how it turns out which they currently do. There is alot of short term focus at the expense of long term gain and their gameplan is more like farming players by the numbers and rely on statistics and dance around the maypole when one of their players breakthrough. Success/monetary gain follows proper football development, unless you are the EPL where you just skip to the finished product.

I think now is a huge opportunity for Irish clubs and the league. The days of young Irish players going to top premier league clubs and making a breakthrough seem to be getting very rare as the club's have huge scouting teams now and our lads are competing with European and African players from an early age.

If there is a strategy put in place by the fai and the club's we really have an opportunity to see quality come through the league and then at a later stage move on if they are good enough for first team football. The bottom line is money though. I think a lot of 16/17 year olds would prefer to be at home with rovers or cork city playing first team ball in front of decent support and maybe even Europe instead of being in digs, playing reserves in the championship or league 1/2. Where does the money come from to keep them here though??? It needs a big commitment and big investment from the FAI unfortunately

NIMAN

tastyt wrote: »

I think now is a huge opportunity for Irish clubs and the league. The days of young Irish players going to top premier league clubs and making a breakthrough seem to be getting very rare as the club's have huge scouting teams now and our lads are competing with European and African players from an early age.

If there is a strategy put in place by the fai and the club's we really have an opportunity to see quality come through the league and then at a later stage move on if they are good enough for first team football. The bottom line is money though. I think a lot of 17/18 year olds would prefer to be at home with rovers or cork city playing first team ball in front of decent support and maybe even Europe instead of being in digs, playing reserves in the championship or league 1/2. Where does the money come from to keep them here though??? It needs a big commitment and big investment from the FAI unfortunately

Big problem is that the FAI don't care about the LoI.

miroslavklose

legendary.xix wrote: »

Any idea on a decent estimate on the costs of a First Division club for the season? Lets say for example Carlow FC were to enter the First Division. What financial backing would get them through a season?

The figure I've heard banded around from a few people involved in clubs is 100k minimum for a fully-amateur club, probably double that when you add in staff and players on semi-pro salaries.

Dempsey

There are quiet a few junior sides happy to be big fish in small ponds and thats another issue that needs to be addressed.

overshoot

miroslavklose wrote: »

The figure I've heard banded around from a few people involved in clubs is 100k minimum for a fully-amateur club, probably double that when you add in staff and players on semi-pro salaries.

our operating budget is c250K based on last years agm. but that is running the senior team, usl team, u19, u17 and on down to u12 or 10 in the (quite new) adacemy, plus the schools programs. the 100k figure im assuming is just to field a loi team after league entry, ref fees, travel, (we did 11,600km) etc
I know some players were getting wages, others expenses but we didnt have enough money to tempt others who would have most certainly added to our squad from their usl teams....

miroslavklose

overshoot wrote: »

our operating budget is c250K based on last years agm. but that is running the senior team, usl team, u19, u17 and on down to u12 or 10 in the (quite new) adacemy, plus the schools programs. the 100k figure im assuming is just to field a loi team after league entry, ref fees, travel, (we did 11,600km) etc
I know some players were getting wages, others expenses but we didnt have enough money to tempt others who would have most certainly added to our squad from their usl teams....

That sounds about right so. Abolishing that 20k entry fee would go a long way towards making the transition easier for teams seeking entry.

Omackeral

Republic of Ireland boss Martin O Neill and Northern Ireland boss Michael O Neill having a pitch side chat with Tony O Donoghue saying they're looking forward to seeing some of the talents on display in the FAI Cup final. Martin said our national team has a rich LOI pedigree and why not continue that. Meanwhile Michael said he has an eye on one or two players himself. Good to hear.