how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

legendary.xix

PRAF wrote: »

I see this as being an excellent setup for the lower tier leagues. However, does it address any of the following:
- Supporting more professional footballers and therefore creating more jobs in football
- Providing solid structures so that the best of our kids do not have to go to England to get chewed up and spat out by the EPL
- Providing a sufficiently strong level of football so that the best young talent in Ireland does not have to go abroad in order to continue their football education
- Generate enough interest in order to winover the barstool fans

IMO it can only do that if it is backed up by an IPL type setup with 8 or 10 top teams

1) Supporting professional footballers will take time, if at all. If the league can develop young talented players and get financial rewards for it, it's a good step forward, e.g. Derry's fee for McClean.
2) More clubs in more regions will be a big development. These clubs will need to be the focal point of the develpment of the game within their regions. The hope and expectation would be that the better players will gravitate towards the Premier Division. Players are always likely going to want to go abroad but hopefull at a good age where they'll have got a good local education first.
3) Build the league and the people will come. People will support the league of not. Concentration should be on having a solid league structure in place. Having a competitive league for established strong clubs and a regional league for getting more regions involved.

PRAF

legendary.xix wrote: »

1) Supporting professional footballers will take time, if at all. If the league can develop young talented players and get financial rewards for it, it's a good step forward, e.g. Derry's fee for McClean.
2) More clubs in more regions will be a big development. These clubs will need to be the focal point of the develpment of the game within their regions. The hope and expectation would be that the better players will gravitate towards the Premier Division. Players are always likely going to want to go abroad but hopefull at a good age where they'll have got a good local education first.
3) Build the league and the people will come. People will support the league of not. Concentration should be on having a solid league structure in place. Having a competitive league for established strong clubs and a regional league for getting more regions involved.

Question for you - do you think there is any way that regional academies with centralised contracting of the best young players would work. I think there would be huge benefits if we could contract the best say 200 players from U16 to U21. That way we'd stop the EPL vultures feeding off the best talent in this country. Any eventual player sales could be maximised as they'd all go through the FAI who'd be instructed to never sell cheaply. All sales would be distributed evenly across the league or else reinvested into grassroots football in the regions

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

Disgraceful post. Please think up some valid arguments if you want to contribute to this debate. Attacking the man and not the ball is cowardly IMO

None of your arguments have been valid and all you have done is come on here and attack the league and it's fans. What kind of response did you think you were going to get??

legendary.xix

PRAF wrote: »

Simple really, MONEY! Which of the following is likely to generate more interest:

Bohs vs Shels

or

Dublin vs Belfast

In order to make this happen you would need vision, hard work, creativity, negotiation, etc. Do the FAI have the skills to make it happen - perhaps not. Doesn't mean its not a good idea though.

So tell me, what is your solution on how to 'fix this league'?

Seriously PRAF, if you're cutting existing clubs or magic-ing up new clubs, you're going to get funny responses. The only way to build the league is within current structures and established clubs. Suggestions I've thrown out about regional leagues are achievable. A number of clubs got involved in the A Championship. Clubs like that need to be brought into a regionalised second tier and build up from there. It'll be a slow process. Nothing will happen overnight. It'll take hard work by clubs within their communities to make their own situation work.

legendary.xix

PRAF wrote: »

Question for you - do you think there is any way that regional academies with centralised contracting of the best young players would work. I think there would be huge benefits if we could contract the best say 200 players from U16 to U21. That way we'd stop the EPL vultures feeding off the best talent in this country. Any eventual player sales could be maximised as they'd all go through the FAI who'd be instructed to never sell cheaply. All sales would be distributed evenly across the league or else reinvested into grassroots football in the regions

If players are leaving Portugal and Holland for the Premier League or la Liga, I don't see why we'll look to stop players going across the water. Within current structures and expansion to a regionalised second tier, the League of Ireland can get more competitive. What I'd see as progress would be players playing in the LoI ahead of Leagues One and Two across the water. There's always going to be a lure for the Premier League. That's understandable.

Derry got a good fee for McClean. It's the place of clubs to get their own houses in order, get their own structures in place and make sure they get a fair fee and are not walked over in any transfer dealings.

PRAF

doncarlos wrote: »

None of your arguments have been valid and all you have done is come on here and attack the league and it's fans. What kind of response did you think you were going to get??

If the GUI said in 2002 that by that 2012 we'd have won 6 of gold major tournaments, there would have been plenty of people that said their arguments were not valid. Same with the rugby and winning 4 Heineken Cups in however many years. You need to think big doncarlos. The current situation has not worked. That is why millions of fans and thousands of players have voted with their feet and gone to the EPL. These are the hard, cold facts.

I've no grudge against the league or its fans. I just don't believe that the solution lies in enhancing what we've already got. I believe in radical change.

I repeat, please contribute something positive to the debate rather than attacking the man. What is your solution to fixing the league? My criteria are as follows:
- Supporting more professional footballers and therefore creating more jobs in football
- Providing solid structures so that the best of our kids do not have to go to England to get chewed up and spat out by the EPL
- Providing a sufficiently strong level of football so that the best young talent in Ireland does not have to go abroad in order to continue their football education
- Generate enough interest in order to winover the barstool fans

PRAF

legendary.xix wrote: »

What I'd see as progress would be players playing in the LoI ahead of Leagues One and Two across the water. There's always going to be a lure for the Premier League. That's understandable

Agree 100%. This would be progress. To make this happen, I'd love to see centralised contracting of the best young talent. Put them into academies, give them the very best of training, give them a great education as well, treat them well. Unfortunately this has never happened in the past. Which is why hundreds of kids used to get sent across the water at 14 and 15 to take their chances in England. Maybe 1 out of 100 would be a success. The other 99 get chewed up and spat out.

I'd love to see all of the stuff you are saying coming to fruition. However, you need to have a really good "show" that the best kids can aspire to. Bray vs Drogs in front of 1,500 fans is not the answer.

K-9

legendary.xix wrote: »

If players are leaving Portugal and Holland for the Premier League or la Liga, I don't see why we'll look to stop players going across the water. Within current structures and expansion to a regionalised second tier, the League of Ireland can get more competitive. What I'd see as progress would be players playing in the LoI ahead of Leagues One and Two across the water. There's always going to be a lure for the Premier League. That's understandable.

Derry got a good fee for McClean. It's the place of clubs to get their own houses in order, get their own structures in place and make sure they get a fair fee and are not walked over in any transfer dealings.

I think that's a reasonable expectation and it will take years. The wages that are on offer in the EPL and Championship financed mainly by Sky and the vast majority of clubs still in debt make it a near impossible match, and in many ways not one the league should be aiming for anyway. It needs to be a sustainable model as well.

dfx-

PRAF wrote: »

Simple really, MONEY! Which of the following is likely to generate more interest:

Bohs vs Shels

or

Dublin vs Belfast

In order to make this happen you would need vision, hard work, creativity, negotiation, etc. Do the FAI have the skills to make it happen - perhaps not. Doesn't mean its not a good idea though.

So tell me, what is your solution on how to 'fix this league'?

Provincial games, franchises or applying to the English lower leagues is not acceptable. It is not going to happen and it is not how to fix the league. If you continue with this line further, I will consider it trolling.

Also, don carlos, CSF and all posters: please keep in mind the charter and keep the discussion civil at all times. If we cannot do that, the thread will be closed and warnings and infractions may be handed out.

celtictiger32

Prop Joe wrote: »

My 2 cents.

Premier

Sligo
Pats
Drogs
Sham
Derry
Cork
Boh
Shel
Bray
UCD
Dundalk
Monaghan-Just for template purpose's

Div 1

Athlone
Harps
Limerick
Longford
Mervue
Galway
Waterford
Wexford
Fannad
Carlow

Div 2

Tralee
Cobh Ramblers
Bohs B
U.C.D. B
Cork B
Bray B
Pats B
Shels B
Salthill B
Drogs B
Sham B
Mervue B
Wexford B
Waterford United B

YOUR VIEWS ???

what about.....

IRISH PREMIER LEAGUE

bohemian
cliftonville
coleraine
cork city
crusaders
derry city
drogheda utd
dundalk
glentoran
limerick
linfield
portadown
shelbourne
shamrock rovers
sligo rovers
st. pats

FIRST DIVISION

athlone
ballymena
bray wanderers
carrick
cobh ramblers
donegal celtic
dungannonswifts
finn harps
galway
glenavon
lisburn distillery
longford town
mervue
u.c.d
waterford utd
wexford youths

SECOND DIVISION

ards
ballinamallard
bangor
carlow
castlebar
fannad
institute
kilkenny city
larne
limavady
monaghan
mullingar
newry city
tralee


also underneath these leagues use the regional league idea where a team can work its way into the national setup if they gain promotion and their criteria is of standard

Polar101

I feel the most realistic way for LoI is to keep producing good young players who can then move on to a bigger league. That way the clubs at least get a decent transfer fee, and they can keep running - and if they time the transfers right they can do a decent run in Europe which produces more revenue (and more interest in the transfer markets).

To get better the clubs need more money - since they won't get big sponsorship deals or TV money, player transfers are the only realistic way.

Of course the downside is that the best players will leave, and only a few clubs will be successful, but what other options are there? But even keeping the best players for one or two extra years would be good. Some sort of a balance is needed to avoid the scenario where a team has great players one season, and a youth squad next year when all the good players have moved on.

dreamers75

Polar101 wrote: »

I feel the most realistic way for LoI is to keep producing good young players who can then move on to a bigger league. That way the clubs at least get a decent transfer fee, and they can keep running - and if they time the transfers right they can do a decent run in Europe which produces more revenue (and more interest in the transfer markets).

To get better the clubs need more money - since they won't get big sponsorship deals or TV money, player transfers are the only realistic way.

Of course the downside is that the best players will leave, and only a few clubs will be successful, but what other options are there? But even keeping the best players for one or two extra years would be good. Some sort of a balance is needed to avoid the scenario where a team has great players one season, and a youth squad next year when all the good players have moved on.

thats spot on but you left out the return part.

Our end of the deal should be to keep the ones that return playing paid football. We need those players as they have been coached at reasonably decent levels here in the junior leagues, then again in England.

When they come back we need to offer them football.

Madworld

dfx- wrote: »

Provincial games, franchises or applying to the English lower leagues is not acceptable. It is not going to happen and it is not how to fix the league. If you continue with this line further, I will consider it trolling.

Also, don carlos, CSF and all posters: please keep in mind the charter and keep the discussion civil at all times. If we cannot do that, the thread will be closed and warnings and infractions may be handed out.

Right Im goinng to state from the off that I could never support some sort of Dublin franchise if one ever did come into being.

But I think many LOI posters on here underestimate the fickleness of the Irish event junkie. If a franchise was successful in making it into the Champions League group stages every year, I genuinely do believe that Irish people would start latching onto this team.

LiamMc

dfx- wrote: »

Provincial games, franchises or applying to the English lower leagues is not acceptable. It is not going to happen and it is not how to fix the league. If you continue with this line further, I will consider it trolling.

Also, don carlos, CSF and all posters: please keep in mind the charter and keep the discussion civil at all times. If we cannot do that, the thread will be closed and warnings and infractions may be handed out.

That's a very Bold statement

From the Footballing Following perspective:
Fans can help by challenging insular, narrow-minded views expressed by established League of Ireland fans.
Fans can challenge attitudes that reaffirm negative stereotypes of League of Ireland supporters, that when they don't agree with an opinion they are reduced to threatening the opinion-maker.

I have followed football for a long time and I am aware that the most conservative, slow-to-change people I know are other League of Ireland followers. I am Tolerant of that, it means that when I see harmless opinions expressed on an Internet Message Board away from the Football Stadium and the decision-making but that persons views are threatened with censor(by accusation of 'trolling'). There is a problem and worse it's associated with a LoI Fan so I have to challenge it. It's my Culture.

My LoI FAN CULTURE mean make an attempt to accommodate other views in a Football Stadium and I try to bring the learnt accommodation into a message Board. I don't believe in threatening people in a shared environment is part of Football Following.

Essien

One short route to more interest and bigger incoming transfer fees would be if the national set up actually paid attention to the LOI and gave the best players a chance in some friendlies and even qualifiers. The likes of McClean, Coleman or Fahey didn't just become good enough overnight after moving to the UK. There are surely at least a few players currently playing LOI that are good enough for the national side.

legendary.xix

Polar101 wrote: »

I feel the most realistic way for LoI is to keep producing good young players who can then move on to a bigger league. That way the clubs at least get a decent transfer fee, and they can keep running - and if they time the transfers right they can do a decent run in Europe which produces more revenue (and more interest in the transfer markets).

To get better the clubs need more money - since they won't get big sponsorship deals or TV money, player transfers are the only realistic way.

Of course the downside is that the best players will leave, and only a few clubs will be successful, but what other options are there? But even keeping the best players for one or two extra years would be good. Some sort of a balance is needed to avoid the scenario where a team has great players one season, and a youth squad next year when all the good players have moved on.

Agreed more or less with all that.

Getting money is a tricky situation. Clubs need more people going to games. Poeple will only come if they feel the games are at a decent level. Still though, it's down to all clubs to put in the hard work they can. I know in Munster, Limerick and Cork are doing that.

The league needs a higher profile. I believe as I've mentioned in previous posts that the involvement of more regions is crucial for this. It's important at the same time not to weaken the league and affect established clubs. For this reason, a lower regionalised tier has got to be brought in.

The league's profile can be helped my consistent good performances in Europe. It was great to see a LoI club in the EL group stage last year. Hopefully our clubs can get to a level where at least two clubs are getting to play-off stages and more often that not we have clubs competing in a group stage, being tested against top opposition.

Personally I consider Shamrock Rovers a big draw despite their problems this year. If they were coming to play a game in my region, it's definitely not a game I want to miss.

A league needs star names and star teams. Europe is where big names are made. It doesn't only apply to Ireland. All across Europe, it's in European football that clubs and players can make a name for themselves.

dreamers75 wrote: »

thats spot on but you left out the return part.

Our end of the deal should be to keep the ones that return playing paid football. We need those players as they have been coached at reasonably decent levels here in the junior leagues, then again in England.

When they come back we need to offer them football.

That's an important point and touches on something I was saying. Naturally it'll take time but we need the league to progress to a level that player not involved in the Premier League or Championship, will see playing in the League of Ireland and good option as opposed to Leagues One and Two. There have been examples of players coming back to the League of Ireland and relaunching their careers. We need these players who've been well coached as you say getting involved in the league. After their playing days, they can always bring that coaching knowledge to the next players.

We do as you say need to be able to offer the players who return football. They can help the league kick on.

PRAF

# Settlement Population

1 Dublin 1,110,627
2 Belfast 276,459
3 Cork 198,582
4 Limerick 91,454
5 Derry 83,699
6 Galway 76,778
7 Lisburn 71,465
8 Newtownabbey 62,056
9 Waterford 51,519
10 Bangor 58,388

The above table from wiki shows the top 10 biggest settlements on the island. I think any solution that ignores these cold facts is doomed to failure. A lot of posters are still thinking in terms of LoI only and not in terms of an all island / all Ireland league. I see that as a minimum requirement for a successful league in Ireland

PRAF

Essien wrote: »

One short route to more interest and bigger incoming transfer fees would be if the national set up actually paid attention to the LOI and gave the best players a chance in some friendlies and even qualifiers. The likes of McClean, Coleman or Fahey didn't just become good enough overnight after moving to the UK. There are surely at least a few players currently playing LOI that are good enough for the national side.

What we should be aiming for is to have a league that is indisputably good enough to actually merit having Irish based players in the Irish team.

PRAF

Madworld wrote: »

Right Im goinng to state from the off that I could never support some sort of Dublin franchise if one ever did come into being.

But I think many LOI posters on here underestimate the fickleness of the Irish event junkie. If a franchise was successful in making it into the Champions League group stages every year, I genuinely do believe that Irish people would start latching onto this team.

I admire your honesty in this. I'm not sure I'd use the word fickle but I get your point. I've no doubt that a Dublin based franchise would be successful if managed right, marketed right, etc. Most people want to row in behind something that is successful. That's why teams like Liverpool & Man U have so many fans around the world. They have a successful history and a strong brand. Lets consolidate the teams so that they have a chance to be successful in Europe.

A successful Irish professional football league would be the GAA's worst nightmare. I'd say the biggest supporters of the current setup of the FAI, LoI, etc. are the people in Croke park

Essien

PRAF wrote: »

Essien wrote: »

One short route to more interest and bigger incoming transfer fees would be if the national set up actually paid attention to the LOI and gave the best players a chance in some friendlies and even qualifiers. The likes of McClean, Coleman or Fahey didn't just become good enough overnight after moving to the UK. There are surely at least a few players currently playing LOI that are good enough for the national side.

What we should be aiming for is to have a league that is indisputably good enough to actually merit having Irish based players in the Irish team.

Obviously, that's why I said this was a short route, one that doesn't need massive changes across the board.
My point is that if a couple of players in the league are deemed good enough for some EPL & Championship sides then our national team manager should be looking here too.
This can be done immediately, no steps need to be taken for it to happen.
I'm not saying the players are definitely there, but flat out ignoring it like they do is ridiculous.

CiaranC

PRAF wrote: »

Lets consolidate the teams so that they have a chance to be successful in Europe.

Can someone just ban this guy

dsmythy

CiaranC wrote: »

PRAF wrote: »

Lets consolidate the teams so that they have a chance to be successful in Europe.

Can someone just ban this guy

Stick something in the charter banning his opinion first maybe.

doncarlos

LiamMc wrote: »

That's a very Bold statement

From the Footballing Following perspective:
Fans can help by challenging insular, narrow-minded views expressed by established League of Ireland fans.
Fans can challenge attitudes that reaffirm negative stereotypes of League of Ireland supporters, that when they don't agree with an opinion they are reduced to threatening the opinion-maker.

I have followed football for a long time and I am aware that the most conservative, slow-to-change people I know are other League of Ireland followers. I am Tolerant of that, it means that when I see harmless opinions expressed on an Internet Message Board away from the Football Stadium and the decision-making but that persons views are threatened with censor(by accusation of 'trolling'). There is a problem and worse it's associated with a LoI Fan so I have to challenge it. It's my Culture.

My LoI FAN CULTURE mean make an attempt to accommodate other views in a Football Stadium and I try to bring the learnt accommodation into a message Board. I don't believe in threatening people in a shared environment is part of Football Following.

So are you saying we should entertain views that the league should be scraped and that fans attending LOI don't matter?

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

# Settlement Population

1 Dublin 1,110,627
2 Belfast 276,459
3 Cork 198,582
4 Limerick 91,454
5 Derry 83,699
6 Galway 76,778
7 Lisburn 71,465
8 Newtownabbey 62,056
9 Waterford 51,519
10 Bangor 58,388

The above table from wiki shows the top 10 biggest settlements on the island. I think any solution that ignores these cold facts is doomed to failure. A lot of posters are still thinking in terms of LoI only and not in terms of an all island / all Ireland league. I see that as a minimum requirement for a successful league in Ireland

I think anybody that tries to build a successful football league on population centres alone obviously has no clue about football.

doncarlos

Madworld wrote: »

Right Im goinng to state from the off that I could never support some sort of Dublin franchise if one ever did come into being.

But I think many LOI posters on here underestimate the fickleness of the Irish event junkie. If a franchise was successful in making it into the Champions League group stages every year, I genuinely do believe that Irish people would start latching onto this team.

If anything fans of LOI are more aware than anybody of the fickleness of the Irish event junkie. It happens in LOI grounds all the time

dsmythy

doncarlos wrote: »

PRAF wrote: »

# Settlement Population

1 Dublin 1,110,627
2 Belfast 276,459
3 Cork 198,582
4 Limerick 91,454
5 Derry 83,699
6 Galway 76,778
7 Lisburn 71,465
8 Newtownabbey 62,056
9 Waterford 51,519
10 Bangor 58,388

The above table from wiki shows the top 10 biggest settlements on the island. I think any solution that ignores these cold facts is doomed to failure. A lot of posters are still thinking in terms of LoI only and not in terms of an all island / all Ireland league. I see that as a minimum requirement for a successful league in Ireland

I think anybody that tries to build a successful football league on population centres alone obviously has no clue about football.

What in particular are they missing.

legendary.xix

PRAF wrote: »

# Settlement Population

1 Dublin 1,110,627
2 Belfast 276,459
3 Cork 198,582
4 Limerick 91,454
5 Derry 83,699
6 Galway 76,778
7 Lisburn 71,465
8 Newtownabbey 62,056
9 Waterford 51,519
10 Bangor 58,388

The above table from wiki shows the top 10 biggest settlements on the island. I think any solution that ignores these cold facts is doomed to failure. A lot of posters are still thinking in terms of LoI only and not in terms of an all island / all Ireland league. I see that as a minimum requirement for a successful league in Ireland

Our league is the League of Ireland. When people are discussing how to fix our league, it's natural discussion is on our League of Ireland.

Sligo is a successful club. Galway is a club which unfortunately dropped out of the league but hopefully GUST will get a league licence and get Galway soccer back on track. Population did not come to Galways rescue. You have to look at the demographic of the populations. Clubs like Tralee Dynamos, Cobh Ramblers, FC Carlow, Castlebar, Tullamore and Fanad United entered the A Championship. Other populated areas did not. Every area is different, with different sports to the fore.

I'm not totally dismissive at looking at populations, but it needs to be looked at in the context of our League of Ireland in the Republic of Ireland, and the strength of the game within different regions.

Places like Tralee, Castlebar, Carlow, Cobh, Tullamore, Castlebar where the game is being played in good numbers in those areas, these areas need to be brought into the league. Some other areas need to be looked at then as well. Clonmel have being doing ok, could they be brought in. Thurles and Kilkenny have history in the league, can that be restored? There was talk of Portlaoise joining the A Championship at one stage. Kildare County had a spell, it was sad to see them withdraw, could a club or two from Kildare look to join the league again? What's the strength of the game within Kildare?

BOHtox

legendary.xix wrote: »

Our league is the League of Ireland. When people are discussing how to fix our league, it's natural discussion is on our League of Ireland.

Sligo is a successful club. Galway is a club which unfortunately dropped out of the league but hopefully GUST will get a league licence and get Galway soccer back on track. Population did not come to Galways rescue. You have to look at the demographic of the populations. Clubs like Tralee Dynamos, Cobh Ramblers, FC Carlow, Castlebar, Tullamore and Fanad United entered the A Championship. Other populated areas did not. Every area is different, with different sports to the fore.

I'm not totally dismissive at looking at populations, but it needs to be looked at in the context of our League of Ireland in the Republic of Ireland, and the strength of the game within different regions.

Places like Tralee, Castlebar, Carlow, Cobh, Tullamore, Castlebar where the game is being played in good numbers in those areas, these areas need to be brought into the league. Some other areas need to be looked at then as well. Clonmel have being doing ok, could they be brought in. Thurles and Kilkenny have history in the league, can that be restored? There was talk of Portlaoise joining the A Championship at one stage. Kildare County had a spell, it was sad to see them withdraw, could a club or two from Kildare look to join the league again? What's the strength of the game within Kildare?

Agreed.

I think the FAI needs to look at 10 or so clubs it can promote to LOI standard. If grants need to be given or loans so be it!
A club or two may drop out (Salthill, Mervue etc) which would be no harm imo.
So you'd be left with 12 Premier club and 18 first division clubs. The first division could be regionalised.

The FAI then do the same with another 10 clubs. Obviously clubs would be spread out. No more teams in Galway, Sligo etc... try get a good geographical spread. Then we have a well represented league in terms of that every area is represented and there would be a similar amount to clubs to a country of similar populations, Scotland for instance.

TaosHum

I think the FAI actually were on to something with the A Championship. Having it split into regional sections and allowing teams outside the LOI to compete for a chance to to get into the LOI were really good ideas IMO.

The main thing for me though was the setting up of clubs in new footballing markets. I think thats something that needs to be looked at and with a commitment to doing it for the long haul.

I think every county that has a football league should have a main or "county" football club. But instead of just plonking them in the LOI and hoping to see success immediately, a A Championship style league should be created, giving these teams a chance to develop and become part of the community or identity of the county.

This idea for me would mean that these clubs created would not need very good facilities right away, therefore meaning huge investment is not needed. The league should also be regionalised (like the A Championship) and all clubs given at least ten years to develop, with clubs then being evaluated based on what type of reaction they get from the community.

After that then its up to the FAI and the clubs to see where the club is and is it worth continuing.

There are then other issues such as League entrance fees and John Delaneys salary that really need addressing.

To get football back on the right track in Ireland cannot be done over-night and the FAI needs to adopt a long term solution to developing football in this country.

legendary.xix

BOHtox wrote: »

Agreed.

I think the FAI needs to look at 10 or so clubs it can promote to LOI standard. If grants need to be given or loans so be it!
A club or two may drop out (Salthill, Mervue etc) which would be no harm imo.
So you'd be left with 12 Premier club and 18 first division clubs. The first division could be regionalised.

The FAI then do the same with another 10 clubs. Obviously clubs would be spread out. No more teams in Galway, Sligo etc... try get a good geographical spread. Then we have a well represented league in terms of that every area is represented and there would be a similar amount to clubs to a country of similar populations, Scotland for instance.

Agreed on that.

If enough clubs were of standard to join a regionalised First Division, the league would have a solid structure. It'll be down to clubs from there to put in the work within their regions.

On the second point, fully agreed there as well. All clubs have to get a licence. We can't have another Galway situation again. If a new club is applying for a licence, the FAI have to look at it that if there's a club established within that region already, there's no place for a second licence within that region, depending on circumstances. Every area after all is different!

TaosHum wrote: »

I think the FAI actually were on to something with the A Championship. Having it split into regional sections and allowing teams outside the LOI to compete for a chance to to get into the LOI were really good ideas IMO.

The main thing for me though was the setting up of clubs in new footballing markets. I think thats something that needs to be looked at and with a commitment to doing it for the long haul.

I think every county that has a football league should have a main or "county" football club. But instead of just plonking them in the LOI and hoping to see success immediately, a A Championship style league should be created, giving these teams a chance to develop and become part of the community or identity of the county.

This idea for me would mean that these clubs created would not need very good facilities right away, therefore meaning huge investment is not needed. The league should also be regionalised (like the A Championship) and all clubs given at least ten years to develop, with clubs then being evaluated based on what type of reaction they get from the community.

After that then its up to the FAI and the clubs to see where the club is and is it worth continuing.

There are then other issues such as League entrance fees and John Delaneys salary that really need addressing.

To get football back on the right track in Ireland cannot be done over-night and the FAI needs to adopt a long term solution to developing football in this country.

I thought the A Championship was the way ahead as well. 8 first team clubs took part over the 4 years. Who's to say how many more would have joined in 4 more years?

It takes time for any league to get established. The A Championship did not get that time. There was one major problem. Premier Division clubs did not want it. It was too costly for some clubs to field a second team. In the current climate with clubs under pressure financially, that was understandable.

At the same time though, some First Divsions clubs took part when there was no obligation to do so. There didn't seem to be any attempt to find a solution. A Championship clubs can feel hard done by. Cobh, Tralee and Carlow put in hard work. Delaney came to Kerry saying it was his vision to see a Kerry club in the league of Ireland. The plug has been pulled on any Kerry involvement by the FAI.

I did hear from some sources a form of merger between the First Division and A Championship was discussed, as was regionalising the First Division. Both were rejected. Established First Division clubs have to be respected but I've doubts on how the division can move forward without more clubs. If regionalising the division is the only option, is it so bad?

Was playing against reserve sides enough to generate interest for the first team clubs while in the A Championship? If those clubs had been taking on First Division clubs in north/south leagues, I think there'd have been greater interest.

breffni666

Outside of Dublin Belfast and Cork they should move to county representation ala GAA model. People will support their own local club/county. Although Kildare County in Name but did they represent the entire county?

CSF

breffni666 wrote: »

Outside of Dublin Belfast and Cork they should move to county representation ala GAA model. People will support their own local club/county. Although Kildare County in Name but did they represent the entire county?

It is pretty much the case already. Only in Louth and Galway can I think of clubs that don't. Of course Kildare County represented the county, how could one argue they didn't?

_blank_

CSF wrote: »

It is pretty much the case already. Only in Louth and Galway can I think of clubs that don't. Of course Kildare County represented the county, how could one argue they didn't?

they were a re-badged Newbridge team weren't they?

PRAF

legendary.xix wrote: »

Our league is the League of Ireland. When people are discussing how to fix our league, it's natural discussion is on our League of Ireland.

I'm not totally dismissive at looking at populations, but it needs to be looked at in the context of our League of Ireland in the Republic of Ireland, and the strength of the game within different regions.

Funny, I thought that Derry were from Northern Ireland. I must get out my map and look at that again.

CSF

Des wrote: »

they were a re-badged Newbridge team weren't they?

Well no, the Newbridge team stayed in existence if I remember correctly (perhaps I don't), they did play there though.

mikemac1

Can the FAI offer clubs some help with their websites

Shamrock Rovers have an excellent site

Shelbourne, not so much

Who cares about websites you say?
Well if prospective fans are thinking about going they'll be looking up info beforehand

I'm not talking big money here, just have an FAI officer help out for those who need it, few hours where needed

Just looking at Shamrock Rovers site and it has all the info you need.
And it tries to sell too. I can see price for lots of interesting sponsorship packages or if I want to bring my office to a game and use the suite.
They have products and they push them

You need to sell, other clubs may be doing their best but help could be offered maybe?

PRAF

celtictiger32 wrote: »

with the disappointing news of monaghans demise recently and the annual list of clubs who find themselves in financial difficulty what needs to be done to get our league in a fit state. we all have our theories i.e. the crowds, fai, barstoolers, all ireland league etc so if you were given the job of ressurecting the league what changes would you implement?

please try to be constructive no epl trolling

I've posted quite a lot on this, but to summarise a few key points which IMO need to be done:
- Do more in terms of the already established practice of having NI teams in the league (Derry City). Belfast is the obvious area that isn't already represented in our league
- Consider centralised contracting of our best young players to avoid them being bought too cheaply
- Get some established, older Irish stars to finish their careers in Ireland (e.g. Damien Duff in a couple of years)
- Improve and increase the marketing of the game
- Establish a unique selling point for the game by doing something that other euro leagues are not doing (e.g. zero tolerance for diving / cheating)
- Increasingly focus attention and centralised support on the teams which have a viable chance of long term financial success and a realistic chance of success in Europe. Inevitably this means looking at teams which have large fanbases

legendary.xix

CSF wrote: »

Well no, the Newbridge team stayed in existence if I remember correctly (perhaps I don't), they did play there though.

It was Newbridge Town I believe. It was felt best to enter the LoI as Kildare County and represent the county as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kildare_County_F.C.

legendary.xix

PRAF wrote: »

Funny, I thought that Derry were from Northern Ireland. I must get out my map and look at that again.

If you know you're history, you'll know Derry City were refused re-admission to the Irish League when nominating the Brandywell as its chosen home-ground. Separately when Lurgan Celtic and Donegal Celtic were having problems gaining admission to the Irish League, I thought they should have sought to join the League of Ireland as well but it clearly wasn't something they looked to do. Had Donegal Celtic made such a move, you'd have had you're Belfast club then PRAF! On this topic for a minute, under the Good Friday Agreement, with players up north being able to declare for the Republic of Ireland, making the Republic of Ireland a 32 county team, I think clubs up north should have the right do declare to play in the League of Ireland as well. I'm not too sure on the ins and outs of that though as to whether that legally is right? It probably is a discussion for another thread I guess so we'll park it there.

Back to the question on how to fix the league? The FAI do not fill me with confidence. I'd like to hear noises from them about expanding the league into new regions and having a clear plan on how to do that. A report should be made researching what clubs from certain areas can be brought into the league? What support do they need? What structure to the league would be appealing for clubs to join? What concesstions and lee-way should be given in terms of licencing so that clubs can join at a certain level? To move up a level, clear guidelines will need to be in place, so they'll know what they'll have to work at.

dsmythy

PRAF wrote: »

I've posted quite a lot on this, but to summarise a few key points which IMO need to be done:
- Do more in terms of the already established practice of having NI teams in the league (Derry City). Belfast is the obvious area that isn't already represented in our league
- Consider centralised contracting of our best young players to avoid them being bought too cheaply
- Get some established, older Irish stars to finish their careers in Ireland (e.g. Damien Duff in a couple of years)
- Improve and increase the marketing of the game
- Establish a unique selling point for the game by doing something that other euro leagues are not doing (e.g. zero tolerance for diving / cheating)
- Increasingly focus attention and centralised support on the teams which have a viable chance of long term financial success and a realistic chance of success in Europe. Inevitably this means looking at teams which have large fanbases

As said earlier in the thread Crusaders v Bray appeals in the same way as Dundalk v Bray.

I don't think multi millionaires such as Duff have any interest in running around playing for a pittance.

Centralised contracts would be an interesting idea though would have to see any legal ramifications.

Marketing obviously.

Would have to be some unique selling point. Not tolerating cheating not really going to set hearts alight.

Don't think the league organisers favouring some teams over others will go down well and shouldn't be happening.

overshoot

- Increasingly focus attention and centralised support on the teams which have a viable chance of long term financial success and a realistic chance of success in Europe. Inevitably this means looking at teams which have large fanbases

i want to bring up this one, its not as simple as it looks
1 irish fans are gloryhunters, be it loi, gaa championship, rugby, success breeds fans but lack of it sees them leave just as quick, look at any loi club that was at the top of the loi and isnt now and there is a big difference in attendances
this brings us on to what makes a realistic chance in europe... money talks a lot more now and we will never comepete with the top european clubs. we like to look at the norwegian league (5million population) but while rosenbourg and aalesund went out in the playoff round, shams made the group stages so despite much lower league attendances we faired well enough last year but it needs to continue
that also brings us to how easy is it to identify a large fanbase, look at kilkenny "city", slid out of the league with barely a whimper. there is a big elephant called the gaa which places soccer well down the pecking order in many areas. there were many calls for harps to move to letterkenny, bigger town yes but much of the fan base comes from the south of the county and many in inishowen support derry, there is 0 guarantee it would have brought more fans through the gates.

finally my 2cs on the "provincial clubs" often mooted, where do they play? fifa/uefa probably wont take too kindly on the pro12 set up and the 2 decent welch teams are hardly going to leave the premier league/championship.

and merging with the northern league being a saviour... their attendances are worse, while i would like to see it, its alone is not going to drag a fan to the league. 2008/09 figures... first one i saw

Linfield 1640 Irish Premier League
Glentoran 1496 Irish Premier League
Ballymena United 919 Irish Premier League
Coleraine 734 Irish Premier League
Crusaders 732 Irish Premier League
Cliftonville 715 Irish Premier League
Glenavon 676 Irish Premier League
Dungannon Swifts 507 Irish Premier League
FC Bangor 471 Irish Premier League
Institute 454 Irish Premier League
Lisburn Distillery 435 Irish Premier League
Newry City 387 Irish Premier League

from the same link that would put linfield 8th in loi attendances that year edging dundalk and sligo. i saw crusaders mentioned, they would be on a par with ucd, limerick and athlone town. bray had another 300 in attendance over them.
as i said i would like to see that happen but it wont be any time soon and it wont be the saviour of the league

Richard Hillman

I dont think Central contracts would work. It wouldnt be fair if Chris Forrester or Ryan McEvoy were centrally contracted for Pats and Bohs but Bray or Drogs dont have one of their top players contracted. There would have to be a player for each team and that would be open to abuse.

[Jackass]

Didn't get to read all of this thread, but essentially the point about the league of Ireland is that it does not, and will never work under the current structure.

It would not be popular, but what I would suggest to fix it would be to first and foremost regionalise the game in Ireland. Dublin North, Dublin South, North Leinster, Greater Leinster area, Galway, Mayo, Greater Connacht area, Cork, Limerick, Greater Munster area and 2 northern teams based in Derry and Belfast.

Second would be to begin a partnership with the Government, putting funding in place to have all local schools and clubs as feeders into their local region professional / semi professional side, begin from scratch with a 20 year plan, regular sports days and free summer camps for kids with good academy structures put in place to keep the most promising players coming back, dedicated regional development teams in every region to scout and train and under age regional sides, essentially just a good youth structure.

Third I would begin a strong marketing campaign with the new sides, get people in with family focused fun days, have familys bring their kids, face painting, meet the players, BBQs, bouncy castles, the football almost secondary at first just to give the incentive to have people there and let the support of the team grow off of that, but put massive emphasis on the match day experience and target it towards families and kids.

Fourth I would try and put an exciting competition structure in place and build partnerships to have an annual celtic cup involving the N.I., Scottish and Welsh sides and have a serious of exciting competitions.

Fifth would be to build up a media partnership, try to negotiate a weekly slot for a live game on RTE, try to negotiate a regular page about the league in national newspapers. Have a highlights package on national TV and try and get a tv rights deal.

Sixth would be again Government funding to improve the standard of facilities at each ground.

Seventh would be to try and build a wave of good will towards a new league, with a new buzz, get ex-pro's involved in writing columns in said media partnerships and try to establish a trend of professional Irish players setting a precident to give back to Irish football by doing a final season or two in the loi to lend your profile and name to the league once they've decided to hang up the boots.

It would take a couple of decades before it may become a league of any serious quality, but I think a complete re-brand, re-structure and an acceptance of standards and make it more attractive through various elements, not just what goes on on the pitch would help. But as much as long standind, old school fans would hate it, I think the whole thing needs to be scrapped and we need to start again.

BOHtox

The government's bankrupt. Clubs like Sligo who take their own money and invest it in their stadium would be punished if a bankrupt government came in and renovated stadia up to Sligo stadium's standard.

Just using Sligo as an example here as they're building a new stand.


There's so much that needs to be fixed I don't think I could even come close to actually starting. Ultimately, the FAI either need to stop running our league and let a separate body do it or else Delaney has a big job on his hands in the future. What happened the league over the last 2-6 years has set us back big time!


But just to give my tuppence briefly.

All Ireland league of 18 teams.
First Division of 16 teams.
3/4 regionalised lower leagues of X amount of teams.

Teams need to developed, not franchised but existing teams, and marketed in viable areas that have been identified already in the thread.
Youth leagues need to be developed like what is being done. Reserve teams for senior teams is a part of that.
A-team, Under 21, under 19, under 17, 16, 15 etc

Infrastructure should be built by clubs but a small fund from the FAI or maybe from the Sports council or Department of Sport should go towards direct infrastructure and not given to the club to misuse themselves!

With this, hopefully media attention would improve and that's when you will attract the average punter to the games.

Hopefully ticket prices will never come close to Premiership level with clubs preferring large sold out stadia instead of small-medium stadia half full!

doncarlos

mikemac1 wrote: »

Can the FAI offer clubs some help with their websites

Shamrock Rovers have an excellent site

Shelbourne, not so much

Who cares about websites you say?
Well if prospective fans are thinking about going they'll be looking up info beforehand

I'm not talking big money here, just have an FAI officer help out for those who need it, few hours where needed

Just looking at Shamrock Rovers site and it has all the info you need.
And it tries to sell too. I can see price for lots of interesting sponsorship packages or if I want to bring my office to a game and use the suite.
They have products and they push them

You need to sell, other clubs may be doing their best but help could be offered maybe?

Dundalkfc.com has won website of the year for the past two years and hasn't really helped us too much.

doncarlos

[Jackass] wrote: »

Didn't get to read all of this thread, but essentially the point about the league of Ireland is that it does not, and will never work under the current structure.

Maybe you should have read it as this has been covered before including a mod note.

[Jackass] wrote: »

It would not be popular, but what I would suggest to fix it would be to first and foremost regionalise the game in Ireland. Dublin North, Dublin South, North Leinster, Greater Leinster area, Galway, Mayo, Greater Connacht area, Cork, Limerick, Greater Munster area and 2 northern teams based in Derry and Belfast.

Not going to happen. EVER. Why would/should clubs just give up? To satisfy event junkies who may or may not support a new team?
If the FAI or anybody else tried to do this it would destroy club and international football in this country. All the clubs would take the FAI to court and the international team would be unable to compete.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Second would be to begin a partnership with the Government, putting funding in place to have all local schools and clubs as feeders into their local region professional / semi professional side, begin from scratch with a 20 year plan, regular sports days and free summer camps for kids with good academy structures put in place to keep the most promising players coming back, dedicated regional development teams in every region to scout and train and under age regional sides, essentially just a good youth structure.

Why can't this be done with existing sides?

[Jackass] wrote: »

Third I would begin a strong marketing campaign with the new sides, get people in with family focused fun days, have familys bring their kids, face painting, meet the players, BBQs, bouncy castles, the football almost secondary at first just to give the incentive to have people there and let the support of the team grow off of that, but put massive emphasis on the match day experience and target it towards families and kids.

Why can't this be done with existing sides?

[Jackass] wrote: »

Fourth I would try and put an exciting competition structure in place and build partnerships to have an annual celtic cup involving the N.I., Scottish and Welsh sides and have a serious of exciting competitions.

Already partially exists with Setanta cup which seems to be dying out. Not sure if adding Welsh teams or Scottish (would any of them want to compete)
would make any difference. And again why can't this be done with existing sides?

[Jackass] wrote: »

Fifth would be to build up a media partnership, try to negotiate a weekly slot for a live game on RTE, try to negotiate a regular page about the league in national newspapers. Have a highlights package on national TV and try and get a tv rights deal.

This already exists. Shows your level of interest in our league.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Sixth would be again Government funding to improve the standard of facilities at each ground.

Why can't this be done with existing sides?

[Jackass] wrote: »

Seventh would be to try and build a wave of good will towards a new league, with a new buzz, get ex-pro's involved in writing columns in said media partnerships and try to establish a trend of professional Irish players setting a precident to give back to Irish football by doing a final season or two in the loi to lend your profile and name to the league once they've decided to hang up the boots.

Why can't this be done with existing sides?

[Jackass] wrote: »

It would take a couple of decades before it may become a league of any serious quality, but I think a complete re-brand, re-structure and an acceptance of standards and make it more attractive through various elements, not just what goes on on the pitch would help. But as much as long standind, old school fans would hate it, I think the whole thing needs to be scrapped and we need to start again.

A re-brand or restructure will never work as people like you would never support their local side.

PRAF

[Jackass] wrote: »

Didn't get to read all of this thread, but essentially the point about the league of Ireland is that it does not, and will never work under the current structure.

It would not be popular, but what I would suggest to fix it would be to first and foremost regionalise the game in Ireland. Dublin North, Dublin South, North Leinster, Greater Leinster area, Galway, Mayo, Greater Connacht area, Cork, Limerick, Greater Munster area and 2 northern teams based in Derry and Belfast.

Second would be to begin a partnership with the Government, putting funding in place to have all local schools and clubs as feeders into their local region professional / semi professional side, begin from scratch with a 20 year plan, regular sports days and free summer camps for kids with good academy structures put in place to keep the most promising players coming back, dedicated regional development teams in every region to scout and train and under age regional sides, essentially just a good youth structure.

Third I would begin a strong marketing campaign with the new sides, get people in with family focused fun days, have familys bring their kids, face painting, meet the players, BBQs, bouncy castles, the football almost secondary at first just to give the incentive to have people there and let the support of the team grow off of that, but put massive emphasis on the match day experience and target it towards families and kids.

Fourth I would try and put an exciting competition structure in place and build partnerships to have an annual celtic cup involving the N.I., Scottish and Welsh sides and have a serious of exciting competitions.

Fifth would be to build up a media partnership, try to negotiate a weekly slot for a live game on RTE, try to negotiate a regular page about the league in national newspapers. Have a highlights package on national TV and try and get a tv rights deal.

Sixth would be again Government funding to improve the standard of facilities at each ground.

Seventh would be to try and build a wave of good will towards a new league, with a new buzz, get ex-pro's involved in writing columns in said media partnerships and try to establish a trend of professional Irish players setting a precident to give back to Irish football by doing a final season or two in the loi to lend your profile and name to the league once they've decided to hang up the boots.

It would take a couple of decades before it may become a league of any serious quality, but I think a complete re-brand, re-structure and an acceptance of standards and make it more attractive through various elements, not just what goes on on the pitch would help. But as much as long standind, old school fans would hate it, I think the whole thing needs to be scrapped and we need to start again.

Careful now, I nearly got banned from this thread for expressing these type of opinions!

PRAF

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe you should have read it as this has been covered before including a mod note.


Not going to happen. EVER. Why would/should clubs just give up? To satisfy event junkies who may or may not support a new team?
If the FAI or anybody else tried to do this it would destroy club and international football in this country. All the clubs would take the FAI to court and the international team would be unable to compete.



Why can't this be done with existing sides?

I don't want to put words in the other posters mouth but IMO that kind of investment in the current structures would be a waste of money. The current teams are too small, the talent pool is too spread out, the fans just aren't there. That's why consolidation is a fundamental part of any future success of pro soccer in this country.

I appreciate that there are about 10k hardcore fans who have supported their local teams thorugh good times and bad and see themselves as being a key part of the leagues future. To be honest, these fans are the true football people in Ireland. However, as unfortunate as it sounds, the game will not prosper until it wins over the barstool fans. The sums of money we export every year in this country on Sky Sports, Man U jerseys, trips to Liverpool & Glasgow, etc. all to see top class soccer is unbelieveable. These guys have already voted their displeasure with the LoI by ignoring it. More of the same is not the answer

CSF

PRAF wrote: »

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe you should have read it as this has been covered before including a mod note.


Not going to happen. EVER. Why would/should clubs just give up? To satisfy event junkies who may or may not support a new team?
If the FAI or anybody else tried to do this it would destroy club and international football in this country. All the clubs would take the FAI to court and the international team would be unable to compete.



Why can't this be done with existing sides?

I don't want to put words in the other posters mouth but IMO that kind of investment in the current structures would be a waste of money. The current teams are too small, the talent pool is too spread out, the fans just aren't there. That's why consolidation is a fundamental part of any future success of pro soccer in this country.

I appreciate that there are about 10k hardcore fans who have supported their local teams thorugh good times and bad and see themselves as being a key part of the leagues future. To be honest, these fans are the true football people in Ireland. However, as unfortunate as it sounds, the game will not prosper until it wins over the barstool fans. The sums of money we export every year in this country on Sky Sports, Man U jerseys, trips to Liverpool & Glasgow, etc. all to see top class soccer is unbelieveable. These guys have already voted their displeasure with the LoI by ignoring it. More of the same is not the answer

Nobody gets to see top class soccer in Glasgow unless an outsider visits.

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

I don't want to put words in the other posters mouth but IMO that kind of investment in the current structures would be a waste of money. The current teams are too small, the talent pool is too spread out, the fans just aren't there. That's why consolidation is a fundamental part of any future success of pro soccer in this country.

FFS talk about contradicting yourself? IF all that investment was made into the existing clubs would that not help them grow? What makes you think brand new clubs with zero fans and avoided by those that support local clubs already will thrive.

PRAF wrote: »

I appreciate that there are about 10k hardcore fans who have supported their local teams thorugh good times and bad and see themselves as being a key part of the leagues future. To be honest, these fans are the true football people in Ireland. However, as unfortunate as it sounds, the game will not prosper until it wins over the barstool fans. The sums of money we export every year in this country on Sky Sports, Man U jerseys, trips to Liverpool & Glasgow, etc. all to see top class soccer is unbelieveable. These guys have already voted their displeasure with the LoI by ignoring it. More of the same is not the answer

What you are implying is that we should give two fingers to the people in this country that support the local game to facilitate others like you who are consumers rather than football fans. What happens if the league struggles or FC Dublin :rolleyes: have a bad run. Will you and the other consumers continue attending games?