how to fix our league! - Mod Warning in OP

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

I don't want to put words in the other posters mouth but IMO that kind of investment in the current structures would be a waste of money. The current teams are too small, the talent pool is too spread out, the fans just aren't there. That's why consolidation is a fundamental part of any future success of pro soccer in this country.

I appreciate that there are about 10k hardcore fans who have supported their local teams thorugh good times and bad and see themselves as being a key part of the leagues future. To be honest, these fans are the true football people in Ireland. However, as unfortunate as it sounds, the game will not prosper until it wins over the barstool fans. The sums of money we export every year in this country on Sky Sports, Man U jerseys, trips to Liverpool & Glasgow, etc. all to see top class soccer is unbelieveable. These guys have already voted their displeasure with the LoI by ignoring it. More of the same is not the answer

The barstoolers as you call them will never take to the league in massive amounts, this is more to do with the fact that they like watching their team down the pub and having the craic than really being football fanatics for the most part. (not saying there's anything wrong with that, just people have different levels of interest, some will watch games in the park and watch every game they can find on the telly others like their Super Sundays.) Then there's the people with season tickets to EPL clubs, could hope to get them along to the odd game but for the most part their loyalty is taken.
It's all about getting the kids involved.

celtictiger32

legendary.xix wrote: »

If you know you're history, you'll know Derry City were refused re-admission to the Irish League when nominating the Brandywell as its chosen home-ground. Separately when Lurgan Celtic and Donegal Celtic were having problems gaining admission to the Irish League, I thought they should have sought to join the League of Ireland as well but it clearly wasn't something they looked to do. Had Donegal Celtic made such a move, you'd have had you're Belfast club then PRAF! On this topic for a minute, under the Good Friday Agreement, with players up north being able to declare for the Republic of Ireland, making the Republic of Ireland a 32 county team, I think clubs up north should have the right do declare to play in the League of Ireland as well. I'm not too sure on the ins and outs of that though as to whether that legally is right? It probably is a discussion for another thread I guess so we'll park it there.
.

interesting thought, i wonder are there any legalities to stop a cliftonville,donegal celtic etc from applying to the LOI, or even a bold move by the fai by inviting some of these teams to join.

edolan

Does anyone who regularly goes to LOI matches actually like the idea of regional league? I could be wrong but it appears to be mostly people who don't go to games who suggest it? Would be a truly terrible, horrible, dreadful Idea.

geeky

edolan wrote: »

Does anyone who regularly goes to LOI matches actually like the idea of regional league? I could be wrong but it appears to be mostly people who don't go to games who suggest it? Would be a truly terrible, horrible, dreadful Idea.

Not me. Not going consistently that long, but few things beat the buzz of a big Dublin Derby.

celtictiger32

edolan wrote: »

Does anyone who regularly goes to LOI matches actually like the idea of regional league? I could be wrong but it appears to be mostly people who don't go to games who suggest it? Would be a truly terrible, horrible, dreadful Idea.

no not at the top level anyway. you cant just create a team in an area just because there is none there now look at sporting fingal

doncarlos

edolan wrote: »

Does anyone who regularly goes to LOI matches actually like the idea of regional league?

Do you really have to ask? Try going on to ANY of the club superthreads and suggest that their team be disbanded in favour of a franchise and see what kind of responses you get.

dfx-

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe you should have read it as this has been covered before including a mod note.

I see nothing wrong with proposing restructuring as long as it is within the current club structure and not 'creating' teams such as 'Leinster'. Regionalisation in that respect is fine.

doncarlos

dfx- wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with proposing restructuring as long as it is within the current club structure and not 'creating' teams such as 'Leinster'. Regionalisation in that respect is fine.

He went on to name the regions,

[QUOTE=[Jackass]]
It would not be popular, but what I would suggest to fix it would be to first and foremost regionalise the game in Ireland. Dublin North, Dublin South, North Leinster, Greater Leinster area, Galway, Mayo, Greater Connacht area, Cork, Limerick, Greater Munster area and 2 northern teams based in Derry and Belfast.[/QUOTE]

Does that sound like he proposing staying within the current club structure?

I'm sure St Patrick's Shamrock will do the Dublin South region proud.

dfx-

Pats might, but wouldn't Rovers be in the Wicklow section with Bray;)

PRAF

CSF wrote: »

Nobody gets to see top class soccer in Glasgow unless an outsider visits.

Not sure about that - Samaras is an international standard player, did very well at the Euros for Greece. Rangers had players like Jelavic playing for them last year (until their demise). Ok, Scottish football is not what it used to be. However, tens of thousands of Irish people have travelled there in recent years to watch Celtic in action in the SPL, in europe, etc.

If the SPL is so poor now, surely an improved pro league in Ireland could win some of these guys over?

celtictiger32

PRAF wrote: »

Not sure about that - Samaras is an international standard player, did very well at the Euros for Greece. Rangers had players like Jelavic playing for them last year (until their demise). Ok, Scottish football is not what it used to be. However, tens of thousands of Irish people have travelled there in recent years to watch Celtic in action in the SPL, in europe, etc.

If the SPL is so poor now, surely an improved pro league in Ireland could win some of these guys over?

it should do scottish football is terrible, it was being propped up by the old firm for years. interesting now to see how they cope with rangers playing third division football. surely we cant be far behind them regarding co efficient etc

PRAF

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think Central contracts would work. It wouldnt be fair if Chris Forrester or Ryan McEvoy were centrally contracted for Pats and Bohs but Bray or Drogs dont have one of their top players contracted. There would have to be a player for each team and that would be open to abuse.

Would be interested to understand why you don't think centralised contracts would work? They work fine for Irish rugby and look at the success the likes of Leinster, Munster and to some extent Ulster have had in recent years.

One of the big problems in almost all euro soccer leagues is that the competition gets totally lopsided because a few teams get too dominant (Spain with Barca & Real, Scotland with Celtic & Rangers, EPL with Man U, Ajax in Holland, etc.).

Centralised contacts would be a way to combat this so that the best players are spread around the league. If you had say 50 contracted players and 10 teams, each team would have 5 contracted players. If you had 100 and 10 teams, each would have 10, and so on....

You would obviously need some oversight and transparency in this, otherwise it would be open to abuse.

CSF

PRAF wrote: »

CSF wrote: »

Nobody gets to see top class soccer in Glasgow unless an outsider visits.

Not sure about that - Samaras is an international standard player, did very well at the Euros for Greece. Rangers had players like Jelavic playing for them last year (until their demise). Ok, Scottish football is not what it used to be. However, tens of thousands of Irish people have travelled there in recent years to watch Celtic in action in the SPL, in europe, etc.

If the SPL is so poor now, surely an improved pro league in Ireland could win some of these guys over?

By players like Jelavic you must mean just Jelavic seeing as you only gave one example. Even if you didn't, there certainly isnt anyone else who could be considered top class. And just like in the LOI, anyone who does reach top class will leave.

Of course now for the purposes of salvaging an argument, top class football will now translate to football of a higher standard of football than the LOI.

carlop

doncarlos wrote: »

Maybe you should have read it as this has been covered before including a mod note.


Not going to happen. EVER. Why would/should clubs just give up? To satisfy event junkies who may or may not support a new team?
If the FAI or anybody else tried to do this it would destroy club and international football in this country. All the clubs would take the FAI to court and the international team would be unable to compete.



Why can't this be done with existing sides?



Why can't this be done with existing sides?



Already partially exists with Setanta cup which seems to be dying out. Not sure if adding Welsh teams or Scottish (would any of them want to compete)
would make any difference. And again why can't this be done with existing sides?



This already exists. Shows your level of interest in our league.



Why can't this be done with existing sides?



Why can't this be done with existing sides?



A re-brand or restructure will never work as people like you would never support their local side.

I think this would be a step in the right direction, and may well be happening with some clubs (I'm afraid I'm not an expert on matters LOI).

The idea of merging clubs into regional 'superpowers' is ridiculous and very unfair on existing supporters. However, clubs could and need to do more to appeal to locals and extend their catchment area, especially at school level.

I don't live in Ireland anymore, but I grew up in south Dublin (Dun Laoghaire area). Not once have I ever received anything through the post, or seen a flyer in the area advertising a club. Obviously the fact that the two local teams are Bray, who are in another county, and UCD, which is a kind of special case, doesn't help. But this is an area that one of the big Dublin teams could tap into.

There was never any attempt made to come to our school and get children interested/involved, despite the fact that most of us loved football and a couple of lads played to quite a high level for Shels and Bray youth teams.

Obviously money is short and the main problem is people like myself who grew up following clubs in England and in all honesty probably don't want to be stirred from our comfort zone of watching teams that generally win, and doing so mostly from the comfort of our living room or the pub.

However I don't think it would be too difficult for clubs to go around schools in their area giving out free tickets, youth memberships etc. Maybe each week offer a different school 100 free tickets. Make kids feel like the team represents them, and do it from an early age. Bar the biggest games, the stadiums tend not to be full, so the seats are there, and are being largely left vacant.

If this is already being done, than apologies. As I said, I'm not a huge follower of the domestic game.

PRAF

CSF wrote: »

By players like Jelavic you must mean just Jelavic seeing as you only gave one example. Even if you didn't, there certainly isnt anyone else who could be considered top class. And just like in the LOI, anyone who does reach top class will leave.

Of course now for the purposes of salvaging an argument, top class football will now translate to football of a higher standard of football than the LOI.

Oh sweet jesus . You've latched onto a very minor point and ignored the wider point I was making. I was commenting on the amount of money spent on foreign football in this country. These are real cash outflows going outside the country, mostly into Britain. They involve sky sports subs, replica jersey sales, UK trips to see their favourite teams, etc.

With respect to Irish fans taking trips to Scotland to watch Celtic, there are other considerations rather than just having top class players to watch. Over the years there have been lots of top class players, too numerous to mention, but that does seem to have dried up as I mentioned already.

Scottish football is in decline now following the Rangers liquidation. Two points arise from this:
- Now is the perfect chance for Irish domestic soccer to win back some of these fans. Why watch Celtic just hammer lots of other teams with no real competition
- Now is the chance to explore the possibility of Celtic competing in some sort of Irish / NI / Scottish Cup competition. Could they be invited into the Setanta Cup? Could a Welsh team also be invited in?

CSF

PRAF wrote: »

Oh sweet jesus . You've latched onto a very minor point and ignored the wider point I was making. I was commenting on the amount of money spent on foreign football in this country. These are real cash outflows going outside the country, mostly into Britain. They involve sky sports subs, replica jersey sales, UK trips to see their favourite teams, etc.

With respect to Irish fans taking trips to Scotland to watch Celtic, there are other considerations rather than just having top class players to watch. Over the years there have been lots of top class players, too numerous to mention, but that does seem to have dried up as I mentioned already.

Scottish football is in decline now following the Rangers liquidation. Two points arise from this:
- Now is the perfect chance for Irish domestic soccer to win back some of these fans. Why watch Celtic just hammer lots of other teams with no real competition
- Now is the chance to explore the possibility of Celtic competing in some sort of Irish / NI / Scottish Cup competition. Could they be invited into the Setanta Cup? Could a Welsh team also be invited in?

So when you say something wrong I shouldn't correct you just because you say other things too? Makes no sense to me.

Of course the league should be improving to take advantage of any let up anywhere. We all want the league to improve.

[Jackass]

Suprised at the level of hostility towards my constructive suggestions, I said not all would like it, but I guess I wasn't counting on Don Carols feeling as strongly as he does!

I'll begin and end the argument here Don Carlos, the current structure has and always will fail.

/thread

The reason being that the league of Ireland is essentially a Dublin super cup, with 5 Dublin based teams in an 11 team league, about the same as you'd find London clubs in the English Premier League, with 20 top flight sides and a population of roughly 4 or 5 times that of Dublin. You also have another club which is a short DART ride from Dublin city centre, Bray, and then a further hop on the motor way for 30 minutes from the city centre and you've got Dundalk and Drogheda.

So, of the top flight, 8 of the 11 sides are about 30 - 45 minutes from O'Connell St. at longest, depending on your mode of transport.

And that leaves 3 other sides for the rest of the country. Cork, Derry and Sligo. That pretty much excludes half of the country from the league, straight away and if you don't live in Dublin, there's a pretty good chance that you don't have a local team. And the great thing about Dublin is that half of the people IN dublin aren't FROM dublin, so will have no affinety or interest in those teams anyway.

So straight away, the regional issue has massive merit. In fact, it's the one and only solution to ever having a proper league. Without it, it will never happen. So it depends on if you'd rather keep things as they are, and cut off your nose to spite your face, or embrace a model that could actually work.

Regarding "all the clubs taking the FAI to court" (lol), I will take the opportunity to show my knowledge of the league (and kudos on disproving the holier than thou attitude of LOI fans), the league has only recently come back under the umbrella of the FAI and it would be very easy to move it away from FAI control again once the current deal is up and all the FAI would then have to do, as the Governing body of football in Ireland, is set up the league recognised by the governing body, with the clubs recognised by the governing body, and Pats and Shels and Rovers can still compete in their league all they want, it just would not be the recognised league of Ireland and wouldn't have the funding from FIFA and the FAI that the new league with new teams would have. Although obviously it would be better that if something like this ever happened (which lets face it, it never will, our league will always be the amature hog wash it is now - especailly when those from within are the least flexible in helping domestic football in Ireland, thus the biggest obsticle) it would be better to do it with consensus and have a joint agreement of everyone moving in the same direction instead of politics of a failed system preventing progress.

That was just a retort to your criticism of my first point, my second point about all the local schools feeding in to local teams and having free summer camps and regional development you asked why can't this be done with current clubs? Well, because about 85% - 90% of the geograpic island would be excluded if we did this with just the current clubs, as I'm not sure how sensible it would be to have a Donegal community project feeding into a club 5 hours away. There needs to be a regional side for regional development and the facilities and structure (i.e. the club) needs to be in the region if the kids are ever going to make it home for tea.

My third point about a marketing initiative and targeting families and kids, well in theory yes this could be done with local clubs, but then, Anglo Irish bank could have marketed its self to try and get back a reputation too, but the point is that it needs to be a complete break from what went before, everybody knows and is not interested in the LOI as it is, it's just a fact and when you look at the success of rugby in this country and how it has been marketed and also how it is regional, this is the framework to adopt imo.

And then blah blah blah, you pretty much quote the rest of my post repeating "why can't this be done with existing clubs" which makes me kind of wonder if you are getting the point at all...

CiaranC

Waffle. YOu are confusing cause and effect. We dont have a regionalised league because outside of a few regions, people arent interested in supporting football the way it is traditionally supported everywhere.

The notion that we should scrap our national league and gamble on the people who dont support football here suddenly having an epiphany and embracing traditional football support is LAUGHABLE.

You people keep saying how you will replace Irish football supporters with other, new football fans. Who are they? Where are they?

And to anyone who reads these threads and thinks the barstool brigades are just a troupe of clueless generic "sportsfan'' gob****es, think again. These people will champion the destruction of Irish football at every turn, and they have the ear of the likes of Delaney.

dan1895

[Jackass] wrote: »

The reason being that the league of Ireland is essentially a Dublin super cup, with 5 Dublin based teams in an 11 team league, about the same as you'd find London clubs in the English Premier League, with 20 top flight sides and a population of roughly 4 or 5 times that of Dublin. You also have another club which is a short DART ride from Dublin city centre, Bray, and then a further hop on the motor way for 30 minutes from the city centre and you've got Dundalk and Drogheda.

So, of the top flight, 8 of the 11 sides are about 30 - 45 minutes from O'Connell St. at longest, depending on your mode of transport.

And that leaves 3 other sides for the rest of the country. Cork, Derry and Sligo. That pretty much excludes half of the country from the league, straight away and if you don't live in Dublin, there's a pretty good chance that you don't have a local team. And the great thing about Dublin is that half of the people IN dublin aren't FROM dublin, so will have no affinety or interest in those teams anyway.

So straight away, the regional issue has massive merit. In fact, it's the one and only solution to ever having a proper league. Without it, it will never happen. So it depends on if you'd rather keep things as they are, and cut off your nose to spite your face, or embrace a model that could actually work.

Those teams from Dublin and the surrounding areas are all there on merit. Its not their or the FAI's fault that they have some of the best players, squads and grounds in the country in addition to Cork, Sligo and Derry.

There's Athlone Town, Longford Town, Waterford Utd, Limerick FC all of who at the moment haven't proven they are good enough for the top flight. Outside of the league there is Tralee, Carlow, Fanad, Castlebar Celtic etc. Again either not willing to join or not at a high enough standard to play LOI.

I'd like a nice geographical spread in the top flight too but not at the expense of a club that deserves to be there.

PRAF

[Jackass] wrote: »

Suprised at the level of hostility towards my constructive suggestions, I said not all would like it, but I guess I wasn't counting on Don Carols feeling as strongly as he does!

I'll begin and end the argument here Don Carlos, the current structure has and always will fail.

/thread

The reason being that the league of Ireland is essentially a Dublin super cup, with 5 Dublin based teams in an 11 team league, about the same as you'd find London clubs in the English Premier League, with 20 top flight sides and a population of roughly 4 or 5 times that of Dublin. You also have another club which is a short DART ride from Dublin city centre, Bray, and then a further hop on the motor way for 30 minutes from the city centre and you've got Dundalk and Drogheda.

So, of the top flight, 8 of the 11 sides are about 30 - 45 minutes from O'Connell St. at longest, depending on your mode of transport.

And that leaves 3 other sides for the rest of the country. Cork, Derry and Sligo. That pretty much excludes half of the country from the league, straight away and if you don't live in Dublin, there's a pretty good chance that you don't have a local team. And the great thing about Dublin is that half of the people IN dublin aren't FROM dublin, so will have no affinety or interest in those teams anyway.

So straight away, the regional issue has massive merit. In fact, it's the one and only solution to ever having a proper league. Without it, it will never happen. So it depends on if you'd rather keep things as they are, and cut off your nose to spite your face, or embrace a model that could actually work.

Regarding "all the clubs taking the FAI to court" (lol), I will take the opportunity to show my knowledge of the league (and kudos on disproving the holier than thou attitude of LOI fans), the league has only recently come back under the umbrella of the FAI and it would be very easy to move it away from FAI control again once the current deal is up and all the FAI would then have to do, as the Governing body of football in Ireland, is set up the league recognised by the governing body, with the clubs recognised by the governing body, and Pats and Shels and Rovers can still compete in their league all they want, it just would not be the recognised league of Ireland and wouldn't have the funding from FIFA and the FAI that the new league with new teams would have. Although obviously it would be better that if something like this ever happened (which lets face it, it never will, our league will always be the amature hog wash it is now - especailly when those from within are the least flexible in helping domestic football in Ireland, thus the biggest obsticle) it would be better to do it with consensus and have a joint agreement of everyone moving in the same direction instead of politics of a failed system preventing progress.

That was just a retort to your criticism of my first point, my second point about all the local schools feeding in to local teams and having free summer camps and regional development you asked why can't this be done with current clubs? Well, because about 85% - 90% of the geograpic island would be excluded if we did this with just the current clubs, as I'm not sure how sensible it would be to have a Donegal community project feeding into a club 5 hours away. There needs to be a regional side for regional development and the facilities and structure (i.e. the club) needs to be in the region if the kids are ever going to make it home for tea.

My third point about a marketing initiative and targeting families and kids, well in theory yes this could be done with local clubs, but then, Anglo Irish bank could have marketed its self to try and get back a reputation too, but the point is that it needs to be a complete break from what went before, everybody knows and is not interested in the LOI as it is, it's just a fact and when you look at the success of rugby in this country and how it has been marketed and also how it is regional, this is the framework to adopt imo.

And then blah blah blah, you pretty much quote the rest of my post repeating "why can't this be done with existing clubs" which makes me kind of wonder if you are getting the point at all...

Excellent post. Agree with this. I think the whole 'regionalised' structure frightens people in that they think it can only mean what the rugby has (i.e. 4 regions). My preference is for a league with a strong focus on the large population centres in the country - Dublin x2, Cork, Limerick / Ennis, Galway / the west, Waterford, Donegal / Derry, and Belfast. You focus on these areas, to a max of 10 teams, and if that doesn't work we can throw our hat at it. But as you rightly point out having 8 teams from Dublin or the greater Dublin area in a league of 12 is a recipe for disaster.

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

Excellent post. Agree with this. I think the whole 'regionalised' structure frightens people in that they think it can only mean what the rugby has (i.e. 4 regions). My preference is for a league with a strong focus on the large population centres in the country - Dublin x2, Cork, Limerick / Ennis, Galway / the west, Waterford, Donegal / Derry, and Belfast. You focus on these areas, to a max of 10 teams, and if that doesn't work we can throw our hat at it. But as you rightly point out having 8 teams from Dublin or the greater Dublin area in a league of 12 is a recipe for disaster.

Plenty of teams from around the country have had their chance in the league from Finn Harps and Cobh Ramblers to Waterford, Galway and Limerick. If the football fans that will be so happy to jump on board your new league wouldn't support their own then how will that change now? Also look at the support Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan didn't get. Also zero chance of getting the IFA to allow Northern clubs in, Derry are a special case because nobody wanted to play with them.

Will you allow promotion/relegation in your new league? What will stop this from happening again if not? Will you and all the others that call for the murder of clubs become season ticket holders of your new franchises?

dan1895

bohsman wrote: »

Plenty of teams from around the country have had their chance in the league from Finn Harps and Cobh Ramblers to Waterford, Galway and Limerick. If the football fans that will be so happy to jump on board your new league wouldn't support their own then how will that change now? Also look at the support Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan didn't get. Also zero chance of getting the IFA to allow Northern clubs in, Derry are a special case because nobody wanted to play with them.

Will you allow promotion/relegation in your new league? What will stop this from happening again if not? Will you and all the others that call for the murder of clubs become season ticket holders of your new franchises?

Of course they won't.

PRAF

bohsman wrote: »

Plenty of teams from around the country have had their chance in the league from Finn Harps and Cobh Ramblers to Waterford, Galway and Limerick. If the football fans that will be so happy to jump on board your new league wouldn't support their own then how will that change now? Also look at the support Kilkenny, Kildare and Monaghan didn't get. Also zero chance of getting the IFA to allow Northern clubs in, Derry are a special case because nobody wanted to play with them.

Will you allow promotion/relegation in your new league? What will stop this from happening again if not? Will you and all the others that call for the murder of clubs become season ticket holders of your new franchises?

People said the same about rugby and it worked out ok didn't it.

PRAF

dan1895 wrote: »

Of course they won't.

Oh yes they will

osarusan

PRAF wrote: »

People said the same about rugby and it worked out ok didn't it.

If you can set up a competition to rival the champions league for which Irish teams are basically guaranteed yearly entry, maybe then you can start to comapre the two situations.

The argument that "it worked for rugby so it will work for football" ignores virtually issue of why domestic football is they way it is.

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

People said the same about rugby and it worked out ok didn't it.

Do the 4 of them play in a domestic league between themselves? Is there promotion relegation available in that? I have zero interest in rugby so have no idea how it works but would guess osarusan is correct and also that UEFA would have problems with it.

doncarlos

[Jackass] wrote: »

Suprised at the level of hostility towards my constructive suggestions, I said not all would like it, but I guess I wasn't counting on Don Carols feeling as strongly as he does!

Constructive suggestions?? Don't you mean destructive, as you are advocating the destruction of 19 football teams in favour of some whimsical idea that a brand new club starting from scratch will win over the event junkies and consumers?

[Jackass] wrote: »

The reason being that the league of Ireland is essentially a Dublin super cup, with 5 Dublin based teams in an 11 team league, about the same as you'd find London clubs in the English Premier League, with 20 top flight sides and a population of roughly 4 or 5 times that of Dublin. You also have another club which is a short DART ride from Dublin city centre, Bray, and then a further hop on the motor way for 30 minutes from the city centre and you've got Dundalk and Drogheda.

Strange that. Who would have thought that the biggest city in Ireland and the three biggest towns in Ireland would have football teams. Quite shocking really.

[Jackass] wrote: »

So, of the top flight, 8 of the 11 sides are about 30 - 45 minutes from O'Connell St. at longest, depending on your mode of transport.

Must be taking a helicopter to Dundalk but anyway.... I don't understand your point? All those clubs are there on merit. They've either never gotten relegated or were promoted to the league.

[Jackass] wrote: »

And that leaves 3 other sides for the rest of the country. Cork, Derry and Sligo. That pretty much excludes half of the country from the league, straight away and if you don't live in Dublin, there's a pretty good chance that you don't have a local team. And the great thing about Dublin is that half of the people IN dublin aren't FROM dublin, so will have no affinety or interest in those teams anyway.

Not only have you displayed your ignorance of geography but also the league. There is also a first division that contains teams from Limerick, Wexford, Galway, Donegal, Waterford, Longford and Athlone. Like most leagues not designed by clueless barstoolers, the league of Ireland operates a promotion and relegation system. These teams can be promoted to the Premier league.

[Jackass] wrote: »

So straight away, the regional issue has massive merit. In fact, it's the one and only solution to ever having a proper league. Without it, it will never happen. So it depends on if you'd rather keep things as they are, and cut off your nose to spite your face, or embrace a model that could actually work.

Would agree with having more regional clubs is a must but they need to be promoted to the top flight on merit. Parachuting clubs in to the top flight based on geography alone is madness. Who is cutting off their nose to spite their face? Any fan of any club in any league would say the same thing.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Regarding "all the clubs taking the FAI to court" (lol), I will take the opportunity to show my knowledge of the league (and kudos on disproving the holier than thou attitude of LOI fans), the league has only recently come back under the umbrella of the FAI and it would be very easy to move it away from FAI control again once the current deal is up and all the FAI would then have to do, as the Governing body of football in Ireland, is set up the league recognised by the governing body, with the clubs recognised by the governing body, and Pats and Shels and Rovers can still compete in their league all they want, it just would not be the recognised league of Ireland and wouldn't have the funding from FIFA and the FAI that the new league with new teams would have. Although obviously it would be better that if something like this ever happened (which lets face it, it never will, our league will always be the amature hog wash it is now - especailly when those from within are the least flexible in helping domestic football in Ireland, thus the biggest obsticle) it would be better to do it with consensus and have a joint agreement of everyone moving in the same direction instead of politics of a failed system preventing progress.

You took the opportunity to display your LACK of knowledge about the league again. The LOI was always under the umbrella of the FAI. All it's clubs were affiliated with the FAI and European places were awarded to it's clubs by the FAI. The league was just not run by the FAI.
It's actually impossible for the FAI to wash their hands of the clubs like you suggest without huge sanctions placed on it by UEFA. Do you really think the clubs will roll over and die? Of course they won't. Not only would the FAI lose their club European places and not be able to compete internationally but they would also alienate thousands and thousands of fans. The same fans that are the heartbeat of football in this country just to facilitate consumers like yourself.

[Jackass] wrote: »

That was just a retort to your criticism of my first point, my second point about all the local schools feeding in to local teams and having free summer camps and regional development you asked why can't this be done with current clubs? Well, because about 85% - 90% of the geograpic island would be excluded if we did this with just the current clubs, as I'm not sure how sensible it would be to have a Donegal community project feeding into a club 5 hours away. There needs to be a regional side for regional development and the facilities and structure (i.e. the club) needs to be in the region if the kids are ever going to make it home for tea.

Hmmmm Donegal community project? 5 hours????? I'm not sure if you are displaying ignorance of Irish geography again or ignorance about the league. Finn Harps are a Donegal side, as are Fanad Utd (who have applied to join the league) you also have Derry City that are close to the Donegal border.

[Jackass] wrote: »

My third point about a marketing initiative and targeting families and kids, well in theory yes this could be done with local clubs, but then, Anglo Irish bank could have marketed its self to try and get back a reputation too, but the point is that it needs to be a complete break from what went before, everybody knows and is not interested in the LOI as it is, it's just a fact and when you look at the success of rugby in this country and how it has been marketed and also how it is regional, this is the framework to adopt imo.

Really don't get the Anglo Irish Bank analogy, it makes no sense at all.
You can't compare football and rugby. It takes little investment to get a team like Leinster to be the top team in Europe. What would it take to get an Irish football team to the same position. €500 million? if Leinster were not so successful in the Heineken Cup what would their crowds be? How many do Connacht get for Magners league games.

[Jackass] wrote: »

And then blah blah blah, you pretty much quote the rest of my post repeating "why can't this be done with existing clubs" which makes me kind of wonder if you are getting the point at all...

Nope not getting your point at all.

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

and if that doesn't work we can throw our hat at it.

At what cost?? The destruction of football in this country?

FFS that really summed your stance up

Essien

Can we stop with the rugby comparisons? There are 4 (6 at a stretch) competitive rugby nations in Europe, its just not the same thing.

PRAF

osarusan wrote: »

If you can set up a competition to rival the champions league for which Irish teams are basically guaranteed yearly entry, maybe then you can start to comapre the two situations.

The argument that "it worked for rugby so it will work for football" ignores virtually issue of why domestic football is they way it is.

For the avoidance of doubt, there is simply no way that any sort of tweaking of existing structures would guarantee a champions league style league for Irish soccer. Forget about it. The solution I and others like [jackass] have described would have represent a massive improment on what is there now and what has alientated so many possible fans from the game.

IMO those kinds of changes are required in order to address the following:
- Supporting more professional footballers and therefore creating more jobs in football
- Providing solid structures so that the best of our kids do not have to go to England to get chewed up and spat out by the EPL
- Providing a sufficiently strong level of football so that the best young talent in Ireland does not have to go abroad in order to continue their football education
- Generate enough interest in order to winover the barstool fans

The second part of your post I could not understand as it does not make any sense whatsoever

PRAF

bohsman wrote: »

Do the 4 of them play in a domestic league between themselves? Is there promotion relegation available in that? I have zero interest in rugby so have no idea how it works but would guess osarusan is correct and also that UEFA would have problems with it.

UEFA have no problem with two Welsh teams playing in the English leagues. They also have no problem with Derry playing in the LoI or with the existence of the Setanta Cup. I don't think it is a strecth to see some sort of all island / all Ireland league featuring 10 of the best clubs. This could be achieved by inviting a Belfast team into the current LoI (or a newly established IPL) or by enhancing the current Setanta Cup so that it becomes the pre-eminent league in the country.

FYI, the 'domestic league' for the Irish rugby provincial teams is the Rabobank Pro12. There is no relegation. They play against other regional teams from Wales, Italy and Scotland. Their 'Champions League' is the Heineken Cup.

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

For the avoidance of doubt, there is simply no way that any sort of tweaking of existing structures would guarantee a champions league style league for Irish soccer. Forget about it. The solution I and others like [jackass] have described would have represent a massive improment on what is there now and what has alientated so many possible fans from the game.

r

What is a Champions league style league? If you mean qualifying for the group stages every year it's going to literally take billions in investment to get there so it's back to fantasy land. We should be looking to emulate the scandinavian leagues in terms of attendance and European success, the EPL is massive in those countries but they also support their own.

I guarantee you that if a top league was created with your franchise teams and existing clubs went into the 1st division it would only be a matter of years before the existing clubs were back at the top and the franchises were out of business.

PRAF

doncarlos wrote: »

At what cost?? The destruction of football in this country?

FFS that really summed your stance up

Could you please define the "destruction of football" for me. Football could never really be destroyed IMO. Football does not equal the LoI. Football is so much more from that. It ranges from the kickabout on the local street, to the 3-and-in game on the local green with jumpers for goalposts. It includes organised matches in schools, to local football teams the length and breadth of the country, to the national leagues, and right up to the national teams. It also includes the aul fellas in the bar watching it on the telly.

While the LoI might technically represent 'elite' football in this country, the reality is far different. I was watching the highlights on RTE last night and witnessed some really comical stuff including a defender totally missing the ball with an attempted clearance which left a 34 y/o striker through for an easy goal. Upsetting the 10,000 people who watch LoI would be unfortunate. However, it would hardly be the end of the world.

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

While the LoI might technically represent 'elite' football in this country, the reality is far different. I was watching the highlights on RTE last night and witnessed some really comical stuff including a defender totally missing the ball with an attempted clearance which left a 34 y/o striker through for an easy goal. Upsetting the 10,000 people who watch LoI would be unfortunate. However, it would hardly be the end of the world.

10,000 is a massive underestimation. Mistakes happen, the same happens in England, if your franchise takes off that defender will be snapped up by one of the franchises and be paid 5x the wages.

Actually who are you planning on hiring to play in your new league?

legendary.xix

edolan wrote: »

Does anyone who regularly goes to LOI matches actually like the idea of regional league? I could be wrong but it appears to be mostly people who don't go to games who suggest it? Would be a truly terrible, horrible, dreadful Idea.

The suggestion for regional league is for the first division and I do go to games. It's not perfect but at the current time, it might be the only option for the first division.

PRAF

bohsman wrote: »

What is a Champions league style league? If you mean qualifying for the group stages every year it's going to literally take billions in investment to get there so it's back to fantasy land. We should be looking to emulate the scandinavian leagues in terms of attendance and European success, the EPL is massive in those countries but they also support their own.

I guarantee you that if a top league was created with your franchise teams and existing clubs went into the 1st division it would only be a matter of years before the existing clubs were back at the top and the franchises were out of business.

Who's fantasy land would you like to go back to? Please show me where I've said that those changes I advocate would guarantee champions league style payouts or qualifying for the group stages every year. This would be a better debate if people could focus on what people actually say rather than what they think they've said.

By the way, the change's I'm suggesting are not actually all that radical when you think about it. There are already teams in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Derry, Louth, and other areas with big enough populations to support pro (or at least semi-pro) soccer of a good standard. However, they are not strong enough to stop the Dublin / greater Dublin stranglehold on the league.

At least part of the reason why these regional teams aren't stronger is that their potential support is diverted by having too many other local rivals. That's why I think centralised contracting (and a fair sharing of the best yound talent) is a key part of any solution. Similarly, you would have to at least postpone promotion / relegation for at least a few years to allow this new model any chance of success.

bohsman

I have actually no idea where the money or fans for your new league is coming from, all I know for certain is that you believe that if you set this league up tomorrow with the help of radio and tv stations you will address the following:
- Supporting more professional footballers and therefore creating more jobs in football
- Providing solid structures so that the best of our kids do not have to go to England to get chewed up and spat out by the EPL
- Providing a sufficiently strong level of football so that the best young talent in Ireland does not have to go abroad in order to continue their football education
- Generate enough interest in order to winover the barstool fans

I'm glad that you are taking an interest but your ideas really are based on fantasy.

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

Could you please define the "destruction of football" for me. Football could never really be destroyed IMO. Football does not equal the LoI. Football is so much more from that. It ranges from the kickabout on the local street, to the 3-and-in game on the local green with jumpers for goalposts. It includes organised matches in schools, to local football teams the length and breadth of the country, to the national leagues, and right up to the national teams. It also includes the aul fellas in the bar watching it on the telly.

When your franchise football league fails there would be nobody supporting the top level game in Ireland. Yes you still would have schoolboy level and the likes of the Leinster senior league but what after that?

And Aul fellas in the bar represents football in this country. What planet are you on seriously?

PRAF wrote: »

While the LoI might technically represent 'elite' football in this country, the reality is far different.

FFS then enlighten us then. what is the elite football in the country.

PRAF wrote: »

I was watching the highlights on RTE last night and witnessed some really comical stuff including a defender totally missing the ball with an attempted clearance which left a 34 y/o striker through for an easy goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEHAHUUV0ps

Lets disband the premier league too if we're basing their league on a few short clips.

PRAF wrote: »

Upsetting the 10,000 people who watch LoI would be unfortunate. However, it would hardly be the end of the world.

You would be losing 40,000 fans at least to the game that actually get up of their arses to go to matches in this country. A lot of these would also attend international matches. Upsetting (very condescending by the way) LOI fans would be the least of the problems and yes it would be the end of the world for top level football for decades until somebody fixed the mess some idiot started with franchise football.

AgileMyth

PRAF wrote: »

Upsetting the 10,000 people who watch LoI would be unfortunate. However, it would hardly be the end of the world.

10,000 is a ridiculous underestimation.

It would be the end of professional football in Ireland. Football fans won't get behind franchises and EPL fans will never abandon 'their team' to support an Irish team. They simply do not see how absurd the notion of supporting foreign teams is.

While I'm on the subject I don't really give a ****e if the league is 'fixed' or not. I don't require success in Europe or massive crowds every week to enjoy going to games. As a Sligo Rovers I'm obviously delighted at where we are now but I enjoyed watching the games when we were ****e in the first division a couple of years back too, days when we could celebrate after a draw at home to Athlone or go mental when we beat Finn Harps. Thats football, following my team. The team I support, the club I can feel a part of. Not some Connaght select franchise invented in the false hope of winning over EPL fanboys.

bohsman

AgileMyth wrote: »

10,000 is a ridiculous underestimation.

It would be the end of professional football in Ireland. Football fans won't get behind franchises and EPL fans will never abandon 'their team' to support an Irish team. They simply do not see how absurd the notion of supporting foreign teams is.

While I'm on the subject I don't really give a ****e if the league is 'fixed' or not. I don't require success in Europe or massive crowds every week to enjoy going to games. As a Sligo Rovers I'm obviously delighted at where we are now but I enjoyed watching the games when we were ****e in the first division a couple of years back too, days when we could celebrate after a draw at home to Athlone or go mental when we beat Finn Harps. Thats football, following my team. The team I support, the club I can feel a part of. Not some Connaght select franchise invented in the false hope of winning over EPL fanboys.

Agreed, all that really needs to happen is for clubs to budget realistically, improve facilities and youth system and try to get kids through the door. Will make the league more enjoyable for people that want to follow it and will have scope to grow as kids come through and get sold on for more money.

PRAF

bohsman wrote: »

I have actually no idea where the money or fans for your new league is coming from, all I know for certain is that you believe that if you set this league up tomorrow with the help of radio and tv stations you will address the following:
- Supporting more professional footballers and therefore creating more jobs in football
- Providing solid structures so that the best of our kids do not have to go to England to get chewed up and spat out by the EPL
- Providing a sufficiently strong level of football so that the best young talent in Ireland does not have to go abroad in order to continue their football education
- Generate enough interest in order to winover the barstool fans

I'm glad that you are taking an interest but your ideas really are based on fantasy.

For a start I'd sell off Dallymount and put the proceeds back into the league

Listen, you are not going to set up anything overnight. This would take a long time to do. However, you have to start from somewhere. That somewhere is an idea and the will to make it happen.

This all goes back to the original question, how do we fix the league? The existing fans would mostly prefer for organic growth of the league, less fees for their teams to enter the league, some additional handouts from govt, and of course the obligatory sacking of that great bogeyman of Irish soccer John Delaney. Where would this get us:
- very few soccer pros in Ireland
- millions wasted on investment in grassroots soccer (futsal, tiki-taki, whatever your having yourself) only for the best Irish kids to be sent to England to be chewed up and spat out by the EPL clubs
- no continuity between grassroots soccer and the top Irish league
- no effort to winover the barstool fans
- a p*** poor national team
- no progress in Europe
- a league that punches well below its weight and is a laughing stock compared to similar sized countries which seem to have their teams much better represented in the Europa and even the Champions League

applehunter

PRAF I see where you are coming from but what you are suggesting is not realistic.

There is neither the will nor the money to carry out your plans.

Can we move the discussion onto realistic suggestions?

osarusan

http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/

Average wage in the Championship = £250,000 a year. For League 1, £80,000 a year. League 2, £65,000.

http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/League_Two_2011-2012/stats/home_avg_atte/
Average crowds for the Championship = 17846. League 1, 7462, League 2, 4453.

Those figures should be food for thought for people who think that the domestic league, in any shape whatsoever, will ever be able to keep our top talent at home.

doncarlos

bohsman wrote: »

I have actually no idea where the money or fans for your new league is coming from, all I know for certain is that you believe that if you set this league up tomorrow with the help of radio and tv stations you will address the following:

Apparently, TV stations will be fighting over the TV rights and sponsors will be fighting to get their name associated with the new league.

The two Dublin teams will play out of Lansdowne so attendances will be huge with kids begging their parents to come to games to see a 43 year old Damien Duff.

legendary.xix

osarusan wrote: »

http://soccerlens.com/finance-in-english-football-wage-disparities-between-the-divisions/92692/

Average wage in the Championship = £250,000 a year. For League 1, £80,000 a year. League 2, £65,000.

http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/League_Two_2011-2012/stats/home_avg_atte/
Average crowds for the Championship = 17846. League 1, 7462, League 2, 4453.

Those figures should be food for thought for people who think that the domestic league, in any shape whatsoever, will ever be able to keep our top talent at home.

Great food for thought. At best, clubs here can hope to match League One and Two standard on and off the park.

overshoot

PRAF wrote: »

While the LoI might technically represent 'elite' football in this country, the reality is far different. I was watching the highlights on RTE last night and witnessed some really comical stuff including a defender totally missing the ball with an attempted clearance which left a 34 y/o striker through for an easy goal. Upsetting the 10,000 people who watch LoI would be unfortunate. However, it would hardly be the end of the world.

that post does show you up, you think a defender has never miss kicked in the premierleague and let someone in for a goal ffs and that 34 year old is the 2nd higest scorer ever in the league of ireland. would you be so quick to dismiss ryan giggs because of his age?

[Jackass] wrote: »

That was just a retort to your criticism of my first point, my second point about all the local schools feeding in to local teams and having free summer camps and regional development you asked why can't this be done with current clubs? Well, because about 85% - 90% of the geograpic island would be excluded if we did this with just the current clubs, as I'm not sure how sensible it would be to have a Donegal community project feeding into a club 5 hours away. There needs to be a regional side for regional development and the facilities and structure (i.e. the club) needs to be in the region if the kids are ever going to make it home for tea.

as was said before you do know the loi expands beyond the first division, and free summer camps you clearly have no concept of money. harps offer a camp at 60e a head or 100e for 2 kids. that compares to 89e for the FAI camps. the reasons for this has been discussed, they cannot afford less, the insurance, wages etc add up someone has to pay it and an loi club certainly cant afford the cost of a free camp right now!
harps u19s will also be competing in the u19 elite division next year after beating derry, sligo dundalk in the northern division... 2 of the team played against mervue on saturday another good few have also had senior games, that doesnt matter though because a club across the water can provide a wage, accomodation etc. we just lost one very good yound lad who trained with the u19 team but was too young to sign anywhere until now
the club is also building a 6600 seater stadium and training pitches but that is going at a snails pace because the FAI and government grant money is tied up by more red tape than a chainsaw could go through... so where is all the money for your new regional clubs going to come from? franchises are utter failures, look at sporting fingal, they bought success it didnt bring fans. look at the welsh regions the old club fans didnt migrate over, attendances are probably half that of the old clubs. one is gone the others cant hold onto their players, (hey its loi where the best are bought by richer league for more money!) stop comparing them to the irish provences which were already in existance since the 1870s and look at the welsh or better yet the italian aironi franchise where is it now?!

and 5 hours you have **** all knowledge of geography either! jesus christ you (or the other one) started going on about a dublin centric by grading teams within 1hr from dublin... you do know how small this country is?, 1 hr is halfway across it! sure ya might as well include longford, wexford and athlone there too, sure waterford cant be much more than the hour, throw it in!
edit

PRAF wrote: »

For a start I'd sell off Dallymount and put the proceeds back into the league

- no progress in Europe
- a league that punches well below its weight and is a laughing stock compared to similar sized countries which seem to have their teams much better represented in the Europa and even the Champions League

had to laugh... you clearly have no idea of money or ownership rights now either! dalymount belongs to bohs, they cannot sell it cant get a new stadium built in the present climate as was the plan during the boom... it is their stadium not the league, its value now wouldnt even cover the investment needed in their own club to bring them to a good level.
and punches well below its weight? league 2 attendances are about 2x or more our average, how far do you think they would go in europe? and making the group stages for the first time doesnt count as progress?!

doncarlos

PRAF wrote: »

Listen, you are not going to set up anything overnight. This would take a long time to do.

:D

And you expect all these brand new fans that have flocked in their thousands from nowhere are going to support a franchise team that won't be a good standard or competing in Europe for a long time?

Will the sponsorship remain for a league that is going to take a long time to develop?

PRAF

AgileMyth wrote: »

10,000 is a ridiculous underestimation.

It would be the end of professional football in Ireland. Football fans won't get behind franchises and EPL fans will never abandon 'their team' to support an Irish team. They simply do not see how absurd the notion of supporting foreign teams is.

While I'm on the subject I don't really give a ****e if the league is 'fixed' or not. I don't require success in Europe or massive crowds every week to enjoy going to games. As a Sligo Rovers I'm obviously delighted at where we are now but I enjoyed watching the games when we were ****e in the first division a couple of years back too, days when we could celebrate after a draw at home to Athlone or go mental when we beat Finn Harps. Thats football, following my team. The team I support, the club I can feel a part of. Not some Connaght select franchise invented in the false hope of winning over EPL fanboys.

Ridiculous underestimation? What is your estimate? I based my figures off wikipedia which show a little less than 10k fans per week actually (avg attendence of around 1600 x 6 matches per round of games).

The comparisons for the dreaded franchise / regional model in rugby are around 7.5k for the rabo league (per game) and around 14k for the Heineken (per game). The GAA gets in around 16k per game according to wiki.

Whatever way you slice it, the league is poorly attended, compared to the millions of what you so arrogantly call 'fanboys' who love the game and regularly watch it

dan1895

Your plan has more holes in it than a slice of Swiss cheese. I suggest giving up before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

bohsman

PRAF wrote: »

Ridiculous underestimation? What is your estimate? I based my figures off wikipedia which show a little less than 10k fans per week actually (avg attendence of around 1600 x 6 matches per round of games).

There are 2 divisions and it's not the same people going to games every week, also plenty don't go to games, just like EPL fans. Here's a more accurate look at attendances - http://foot.ie/threads/163317-2012-attendances?p=1610888&viewfull=1#post1610888

Also a good article from the indo - http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/lets-cash-in-on-spirit-of-poland-before-it-evaporates-3161542.html