Irish Juniors

wav1

Just wondering if you guys out there are aware that the national jun squad was reduced from 13 riders last weekend to 8 riders now.All part of the process you may say,but whats interesting and bloody annoying is the inclusion of an English rider with an irl uci code in the squad at the expense of some of our own juniors.This guy declared for Ireland when British cycling didnt want to know him.As you guys know our juniors have been very consistent in the A3 races this year but still an outsider gets in in front of them.By the way i think he has competed in Ireland twice[both in Gorey].Frankly its a disgrace.

morana

He qualifys for Ireland due to the IRL code. full stop.

what way would you like to play it? Maybe we could exclude Northern riders if they come from the wrong areas....

Chips Lovell

If they're qualified to ride for Ireland and they declare for Ireland I don't see what the problem is. They're Irish.

If the guy you're talking about is Ryan Mullen, I see he's doing more than enough to justify his selection at the moment.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/junior-mullen-in-blistering-form-with-quickest-ever-10-mile-tt-in-ireland-or-britain/

lennymc

do you have the names of the 8 riders?

wav1

Its not Ryan Mullen.No problems there as hes an exceptional rider and gone through our system right along the way.The problem i have is that there are about 15 juniors here at the moment who are at least the same quality as our new rider and yet are excluded.This guy already has tried the British route and failed and comes to us.Try being the real Irish lads that have missed out on a potential couple of weeks in Europe.

buffalo

And that Nico Roche fella. Sure he's practically French, always racing in France. Pretty much only comes home for the Nationals. Ban him I say!

Chips Lovell

Not to mention Brammeier and Martin, both of whom were born in England.

Spokes of Glory

wav1 wrote: »

Its not Ryan Mullen.No problems there as hes an exceptional rider and gone through our system right along the way.The problem i have is that there are about 15 juniors here at the moment who are at least the same quality as our new rider and yet are excluded.This guy already has tried the British route and failed and comes to us.Try being the real Irish lads that have missed out on a potential couple of weeks in Europe.

Riders compete all the time for non-birth countries....Matt Brammeier, Nico Roche etc. What's different about this case ? Are you saying he doesn't meet the criteria to qualify ?

I take it you don't have a connection with one of the dropped riders, because this sounds like an axe being ground...

wav1

No axe to grind.But how anyone can stand over this decision baffles me.Also wouldn't be a huge fan of Mr Brammiers irishness either.First one to greet Cav in Copenhagen.He's another one that jumped ship on the British system

Spokes of Glory

wav1 wrote: »

No axe to grind.But how anyone can stand over this decision baffles me.Also wouldn't be a huge fan of Mr Brammiers irishness either.First one to greet Cav in Copenhagen.He's another one that jumped ship on the British system

Well he was Cav's trade teammate, so I don't agree that shaking hands with a Brit compromises his national commitments somehow. But ok we get the picture. Only mass-going, bacon and cabbage eating, red-haired and freckly paddies to be selected in future.

Spokes

12 sprocket

So we will disown the millions of irish diaspora.. Take the light away from the window in the presidents house in the phoeinix park....

some of the current diaspora are descendents of the people who kept faimilies going with their few quid every week that they earned in the factories in bermingam, london and many other parts of britain and sent home in the registeresd letter every friday.. shame on the original writer of this thread.

wav1

Im sure all our juniors whom you all probably race with every week will appreciate all the support.Thanks spokes

Dermot Illogical

wav1 wrote: »

No axe to grind.

Connection to someone who has?

morana

RT66 wrote: »

Connection to someone who has...

not made the cut perhaps.

i know its difficult when you see somebody who has come in from the outside and got a place in the last 8 but he is an Irish passport holder. It could be argued that he is as good as the other lads dropped but I assume they arent completely out of the picture if they prove they are better than him or the rest then they will be back in the picture and they have a chance to show this at the nationals and the Junior tour.

Hopefully we can lure Chris Juul Jensen back to us.......

wav1

morana.Thats the whole point thats being missed here.He's no better than whats here at the moment.ie he's not that special and and has done nothing in the races he's competed in here to date.He has already tried out for the GB set up and wasnt deemed good enough.He only has an IRL UCI code after this rejection.Thats the annoying bit and no i have nothing personal against the lad,because he has tried something and got it.Its the people that allowed this happen im annoyed with.Best batch of juniors here now since the Bennet,Lavery.etc days.

Junior

wav1 wrote: »

morana.Thats the whole point thats being missed here.He's no better than whats here at the moment.ie he's not that special and and has done nothing in the races he's competed in here to date.He has already tried out for the GB set up and wasnt deemed good enough.He only has an IRL UCI code after this rejection.Thats the annoying bit and no i have nothing personal against the lad,because he has tried something and got it.Its the people that allowed this happen im annoyed with.Best batch of juniors here now since the Bennet,Lavery.etc days.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, but if you want to do something about it other than moan on an internet forum, lodge a complaint about the selection and question his results, otherwise STFU as this sounds like nothing other than sour grapes.

shorthorn

morana wrote: »

not made the cut perhaps.

i know its difficult when you see somebody who has come in from the outside and got a place in the last 8 but he is an Irish passport holder. It could be argued that he is as good as the other lads dropped but I assume they arent completely out of the picture if they prove they are better than him or the rest then they will be back in the picture and they have a chance to show this at the nationals and the Junior tour.

Hopefully we can lure Chris Juul Jensen back to us.......

Morana/spokes/junior
The word CRITERIA was mentioned only once, was it met by this individual
from the UK in every aspect??? and then applied accordingly by selectors.

RobFowl

You do all know Eamon DeValera was actually born in the USA!

And James Joyce/Samuel Beckett lived outside Ireland for most of their lives....

Chips Lovell

wav1 wrote: »

He has already tried out for the GB set up and wasnt deemed good enough.He only has an IRL UCI code after this rejection.Thats the annoying bit and no i have nothing personal against the lad,because he has tried something and got it.Its the people that allowed this happen im annoyed with.

What you don't seem to understand is that this is entirely irrelevant. If someone fits the criteria they are entitled to declare for Ireland, end of story. There's nothing in the rules prohibiting someone from having contact with other national set-ups. And there's no rule about "how Irish" someone is being part of the selection criteria.

Beasty

shorthorn wrote: »

Morana/spokes/junior
The word CRITERIA was mentioned only once, was it met by this individual
from the UK in every aspect??? and then applied accordingly by selectors.

If not, I presume an appeal could have been made. As an "outsider" (for now at least;)), I really cannot see what the issue is here - this has happened across numerous sports, with many sportsmen and women switching their allegiences based on the relevant criteria

I'm with Jack Charlton and morana on this - if someone qualifies, and is good enough, pick them. If they don't qualify, then they won't be picked whatever their talents

dave_o_brien

Beasty wrote: »

If not, I presume an appeal could have been made. As an "outsider" (for now at least;)), I really cannot see what the issue is here - this has happened across numerous sports, with many sportsmen and women switching their allegiences based on the relevant criteria

I'm with Jack Charlton and morana on this - if someone qualifies, and is good enough, pick them. If they don't qualify, then they won't be picked whatever their talents, but we really, really want them, invent a grandmother and knock in long balls non stop, cause he's a long fella and we're sure to get some joy out of it

That's better...

Also, OP, I'm not sure whether your gripe is with his "Irishness" or your opinion that he's no better than people left out.

If it's the first issue, I trust the selectors to be rigorous enough to not pull another Cascarino.

If it's the second, then that's simply your opinion, and while I feel the same way about our Olympic Cycling Squad, numerous midfield decisions that Trap made and the logic of letting Tony Buckley or John O'Shea play professionally, they are not my decisions to make. All the moaning in the world won't change the fact that the people who have been given the responsibility to choose the best 8 juniors/ the 8 with most development potential have probably been given that responsibility because they have experience, a track record, and an understanding of cycling, more so than most. If they think this kid is worth the investment, then he probably is, even if you or I are sceptical.

Beasty

Cascarino's mother was adopted by an Irish family and qualified him for Ireland, whever he said in his autobiography;)

Dermot Illogical

Beasty wrote: »

Cascarino's mother was adopted by an Irish family and qualified him for Ireland, whever he said in his autobiography;)

Anyone needs a grandmother I hear Stephen Ireland's giving them away.

MichealD

I think we should give the guy (and the selectors) a break. Theres probably the best set up for underage and junior riders for many a long year in Cycling Ireland with the talent team 2020 squads and properly qualified and experienced coachs running the programs. You have to presume they have seen potential and committment in the chap and if he isn't good enough he'll be weeded out soon enough. The guy is also riding for a progressive junior squad in the UK.

on_the_nickel

Slightly OT, but can anyone explain to me how Michael Hutchinson can compete in both the British and Irish championships?

Obviously, he has both passports, but surely he can only complete in one country?

Beasty

on_the_nickel wrote: »

Slightly OT, but can anyone explain to me how Michael Hutchinson can compete in both the British and Irish championships?

Obviously, he has both passports, but surely he can only complete in one country?

He's currently riding on an Irish licence, and although he is allowed to take part in UK championships, he cannot be crowned UK champion or awarded any medals for placing

Lumen

Undermining children. Is this what the internet was invented for?

Junior

Lumen wrote: »

Undermining children. Is this what the internet was invented for?

No I think you'll find it's for correcting punctuation, and arguing with trolls.

victorcarrera

wav1 wrote: »

... national jun squad was reduced from 13 riders last weekend to 8 riders now.

Maybe a link to the relevant license/selection criteria might help. I don't have but I came across this while looking and if this applies there is a normal place of residency requirement.

A licence is actually issued by the National Federation of the country in which the licence applicant has his or her main residence. The National Federation must thus check the declaration of domicile of the members of teams in order to decide whether to issue, or not issue, licences to athletes residing in the country of the team.

The issuing of the licence is thus completely independent of the applicant's nationality and the nationality of his or her team or club, as shown by the examples below:


This principle applies to all licence holders from all National Federations, irrespective of their status (professional or otherwise).

From: http://www.cyclingireland.ie/getattachment/c0c960ee-f126-4d9b-b8b8-54f26c24c5b0/UCI-Award-of-licences.aspx

Did Dan Martin not have problems with this earlier in the year.?

Flandria

Would this be the UK based rider that was blamed for a crash at an Irish training camp and took a punch for his troubles perchance? If so, I think sour grapes are definitely behind the post rather than questions about the validity of his Irishness...

shorthorn

Its not about wheter the individual is irish or british, the issue is junior talent in ireland is here waiting to avail of the system but some of them have been ignored and no i don't think its sour grapes or axe grinding, why not use the CRITERIA as it is explained in detail on the cycling ireland website,having an irish passport is the easiest part, ABILITY,TALENT,PERFORMANCE,RESULTS thats what the criteria is all about, its simple if it was applied in this case but it WAS NOT, why ???? JUNIOR you seem to have a big mouth, can you answer the question why the criteria was not adhered to or do want to STFU

Chips Lovell

Why do you think the selection criteria weren't applied?

morana

victorcarrera wrote: »

Maybe a link to the relevant license/selection criteria might help. I don't have but I came across this while looking and if this applies there is a normal place of residency requirement.





From: http://www.cyclingireland.ie/getattachment/c0c960ee-f126-4d9b-b8b8-54f26c24c5b0/UCI-Award-of-licences.aspx

Did Dan Martin not have problems with this earlier in the year.?

the licence is issued by the country you live in but the code on the licence will indicate your ability to ride for that country. Beasty has a licence that is issued by CI and has a GBR code on it. Mel Spath had aCI licence with GER on it but now its IRL

morana

shorthorn wrote: »

Its not about wheter the individual is irish or british, the issue is junior talent in ireland is here waiting to avail of the system but some of them have been ignored and no i don't think its sour grapes or axe grinding, why not use the CRITERIA as it is explained in detail on the cycling ireland website,having an irish passport is the easiest part, ABILITY,TALENT,PERFORMANCE,RESULTS thats what the criteria is all about, its simple if it was applied in this case but it WAS NOT, why ???? JUNIOR you seem to have a big mouth, can you answer the question why the criteria was not adhered to or do want to STFU

the junior team manager made the call. If somebody thinks they have been extremely hard done by I suggest the ring Frank and ask for the reasons why.

As I said before its not set in stone. If riders perform they will be brought into this squad and if they dont then they will move out of it. its the same with the T2020 guys and girls. Unfortunately we cant run programs that includes everybody.

shorthorn

Vladimir you asked the most relevant question to date, good on ya ,
mabey morano or JUNIOR mouth piece know the answer, it seems to have struck a nerve with both of them ??

Beasty

shorthorn wrote: »

mabey morano or JUNIOR mouth piece know the answer, it seems to have struck a nerve with both of them ??

Attack the post, not the poster

Vlad's question was directed at you - you are stating the selection criteria have not been applied, but will not say in which way you believe it was not applied

manwithaplan

morana wrote: »

Beasty has a licence that is issued by CI and has a GBR code on it.

Beasty, what time would it suit you for me to drop around with my torch and pitchfork?

Beasty

manwithaplan wrote: »

Beasty, what time would it suit you for me to drop around with my torch and pitchfork?

Please, can we keep that sort of stuff to PMs ....

wav1

Interesting article on C/I website today re youth cycling and the jun squad.It compliments the juns on the squad for excellent results and much improved performances etc.So that was the origanal point.If they are happy with how the lads have stepped up to what was set out for them why did they have to look elsewhere.In other words what else can our riders do?

Chips Lovell

Right, after some consideration, I'm closing this thread.

Posters who've got a beef about this issue have had plenty of opportunity to provide a legitimate grounds for complaint, but have failed to provide one.

I don't think that this kind of nasty witch hunt has a place here.