Fix old system or install new wireless system?

onofftheroad

Hi

I have a question for the forum.

I live in a house where a wired alarm system was installed 15 years ago. It worked perfectly until recently when the panel showed an open zone fault and the alarm will not set since then.

We had a problem with mice in our attic at that time which has since been eradicated. I suspect a mouse may have chewed through a cable in the attic causing this fault as many alarm cables ran through the attic!

I do not know the company that originally installed the alarm and I cannot seem to get the panel to bypass this fault.

What are my best options now? I do not feel like getting in an installer to start ripping up floorbards etc to locate a potential problem in the wired systems.

Would my best option be for Eircom or another wireless system installer to come and instal a new wireless system or is this needlessly costly and would it be a better (and assuming more cost effective) option for me to just stick with the wired system and get it fixed?

I don't know any installers or advantages of moving to a wireless systems etc apart from possibility of remote monitoring so thanks in advance for replies on this.

KoolKid

It really depends on the condition of the wiring. Is it old surface wiring , or worse still under the carpet etc.?
Is it a property that was prewired during construction? If so then generally the wiring should be good. You best bet is get someone out to take a look at this & see whats involved. It may be something as simple as a faulty device or a damaged cable in the attic. Both can be easily sorted with out the need for a new system.
After that if your looking at upgrading go for a hybrid system like Siemens or HKC . These would give you the benefit of using what wiring is good and the ability to use wireless where needed.
There is no need to go for Eircom in particular , All systems can be monitored & remote access is available in different forms on all new systems , from text commands to full browser access.

onofftheroad

KoolKid wrote: »

It really depends on the condition of the wiring. Is it old surface wiring , or worse still under the carpet etc.?
Is it a property that was prewired during construction? If so then generally the wiring should be good. You best bet is get someone out to take a look at this & see whats involved. It may be something as simple as a faulty device or a damaged cable in the attic. Both can be easily sorted with out the need for a new system.
After that if your looking at upgrading go for a hybrid system like Siemens or HKC . These would give you the benefit of using what wiring is good and the ability to use wireless where needed.
There is no need to go for Eircom in particular , All systems can be monitored & remote access is available in different forms on all new systems , from text commands to full browser access.

Hello KoolKid,

Thanks for your reply.

The wired system was installed in 1997 and seemingly was installed by running cables from the panel up into the attic and down from there to external windows and doors. These cables seem to have been plastered into the walls so no external cables are visible/under carpets etc. So I would hope be that the cabling should be in good shape generally.

My concern would be that I will end up paying an installer hundreds of euro to diagnose and fix the existing wired cabled system (I have no idea what callout and per hour charges are for a registered installer and I do not know any) while it might be just a couple of hundred euro more to get in a new wireless system with a longer future lifespan.

Is it possible to get a quote from a reputable firm for the callout/labour element of fixing the current system or will they want to investigate first? I am trying to get the best long term value here and I am not sure of likely charges for the fix solution.

Also I do not know or have any recommendations for installers/fixers for existing wired systems hence perhaps thinking of going with new/upgrade to wireless system for that reason also.

Would appreciate some further advice even via PM if necessary!

KoolKid

Ask for it to be checked out and get a price prior to any work being done.
It sounds like the house was prewired , so it may be straightforward enough.
If we do something like this I would give the customer the option of taking the call out off the cost of an upgrade should they decide to do that afterwards.

altor

onofftheroad wrote: »

Hi

I have a question for the forum.

I live in a house where a wired alarm system was installed 15 years ago. It worked perfectly until recently when the panel showed an open zone fault and the alarm will not set since then.

We had a problem with mice in our attic at that time which has since been eradicated. I suspect a mouse may have chewed through a cable in the attic causing this fault as many alarm cables ran through the attic!

I do not know the company that originally installed the alarm and I cannot seem to get the panel to bypass this fault.

What are my best options now? I do not feel like getting in an installer to start ripping up floorbards etc to locate a potential problem in the wired systems.

Would my best option be for Eircom or another wireless system installer to come and instal a new wireless system or is this needlessly costly and would it be a better (and assuming more cost effective) option for me to just stick with the wired system and get it fixed?

I don't know any installers or advantages of moving to a wireless systems etc apart from possibility of remote monitoring so thanks in advance for replies on this.

A hybrid system would be the better option, using any cables that are working and installing wire free devices on windows that have broken cables if you don't want cables ran. A test of any cable that is not working may even help you find out if the whole zone or just a section of the cable needs to be replaced.

KoolKid

For a system that's in that length a damaged cable is more than likely going to be accessible & easily repairable. Like I said best to get it looked at first & then consider your options.

altor

Everyone is entitled to an opinion..

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to an opinion..

????
No one is saying otherwise . Keep thread on topic please.

altor

onofftheroad wrote: »

The wired system was installed in 1997 and seemingly was installed by running cables from the panel up into the attic and down from there to external windows and doors. These cables seem to have been plastered into the walls so no external cables are visible/under carpets etc. So I would hope be that the cabling should be in good shape generally.

onofftheroad wrote: »

I do not feel like getting in an installer to start ripping up floorbards etc to locate a potential problem in the wired systems.

If the cables are not accessible the a hybrid panel may solve any issue of new cabling.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

If the cables are not accessible the a hybrid panel may solve any issue of new cabling.

I agree , but you need it looked at to determine that.

altor

So did I in my first post..

altor wrote: »

A test of any cable that is not working may even help you find out if the whole zone or just a section of the cable needs to be replaced.

Thunderbird2

The OP could get a multimeter and attempt to find the source himself. Wouldn't hurt to give it a go before paying .

KoolKid

So what happened to everyone is entitled to an opinion?
But you post stirring it up when someone else posts one.
Right.
There are a few changes being made around here.
I am sick of people complaining about these petty arguments of yours.
This stops now or infractions are coming

kub

Lets all put on our service hats here lads.......attic + cable + mice = huge probably of a mouse having a nibble of alarm cable.

Infairness I think it would be wrong of an engineer to upgrade a system which was only installed in 1997 especially due to a little mouse.

Actually guys just reading over this thread again, its not really making us look professional is it?

KoolKid

I agree. Its strange to suggest anything else without looking at it.
Mod note:
OT posts and continuing arguments will be deleted without notice.

Irish Steve

If you have the engineer code and the original manuals for the panel. there should be a facility for walk test on the zone, and in that case, it will be relatively easy for you to get an idea of where the fault is, as the zone is open, any sensor beyond the fault point will not be recognised as operating. In walk test, depending on the sensor type that's on each window or door, as you open/close the window/door, in walk test, there will be a chirp response of some sort. All of a zone is in series, so it should be relatively easy to get an idea of what's working on the zone and what isn't.

If the window sensors are magnetic reed switches, it's even possible that one of the reeds has failed, and replacing it will solve the problem.

Either way, a good engineer should be able to get a pretty good idea of what's faulty in less than an hour, and depending on what the fault is, it could well be repaired in that time as well. if you don't have the engineer code, then there's a bit of extra work and time involved in gettting into the panel so that diagnostics can be carried out, but it shouldn't be that bad to do.

Hope that gives you a few ideas.

KoolKid

If a zone is permanently open it will not walk test.
You can do this and disconnect and short out the cables one by one.
I prefer a multimeter myself.

Thunderbird2

Irish Steve wrote: »

If you have the engineer code and the original manuals for the panel. there should be a facility for walk test on the zone, and in that case, it will be relatively easy for you to get an idea of where the fault is, as the zone is open, any sensor beyond the fault point will not be recognised as operating. In walk test, depending on the sensor type that's on each window or door, as you open/close the window/door, in walk test, there will be a chirp response of some sort. All of a zone is in series, so it should be relatively easy to get an idea of what's working on the zone and what isn't.

If the window sensors are magnetic reed switches, it's even possible that one of the reeds has failed, and replacing it will solve the problem.

Either way, a good engineer should be able to get a pretty good idea of what's faulty in less than an hour, and depending on what the fault is, it could well be repaired in that time as well. if you don't have the engineer code, then there's a bit of extra work and time involved in gettting into the panel so that diagnostics can be carried out, but it shouldn't be that bad to do.

Hope that gives you a few ideas.

How would this method help find a faulty inertia sensor ?

DublinDilbert

It seems like the mice damaging cables is just speculation. It's unlikely they would chew through a cable, it's metal after all. Even if they did knaw off some insulation, it more than likely wouldn't give a zone open.

Some needs to diagnose the problem, simple as. Shouldn't cost too much. Probably a faulty sensor

fred funk }{

DublinDilbert wrote: »

It seems like the mice damaging cables is just speculation. It's unlikely they would chew through a cable, it's metal after all. Even if they did knaw off some insulation, it more than likely wouldn't give a zone open.

Some needs to diagnose the problem, simple as. Shouldn't cost too much. Probably a faulty sensor

Mice eating through cables is very common, Through the whole cable.

Thunderbird2

Happened to me on my back window where my wire was running along the skirting past a hole in the wall for tv cable ... Little s**t ate through the red wire on the back of the cable .

DublinDilbert

I'm not saying they can't, but a faulty sensor is more likely. If they have eaten through a cable your quite likely to break the tamper loop.

If the cable has been eaten it should be quite easy to find and do a temp repair to test the system.

KoolKid

I'd agree with Fred . Damaged cables chewed by mice is fairly common.

kub

DublinDilbert wrote: »

It seems like the mice damaging cables is just speculation. It's unlikely they would chew through a cable, it's metal after all. Even if they did knaw off some insulation, it more than likely wouldn't give a zone open.

Some needs to diagnose the problem, simple as. Shouldn't cost too much. Probably a faulty sensor

:rolleyes: Well there is a chap who needs a bit of experience.

onofftheroad

Thanks everyone for your advice and opinions.

My alarm system has now been checked by an experienced installer who diagnosed a broken cable after testing in the affected zone. Also it turned out that tamper proofing had been turned off on that cable by a previous installer years ago for some unknown reason.

The alarm fault had occured the very same week that we discovered we had a mice problem so probably not a coincidence as this was the first fault on the alarm system for approx 10 years.

Anyway it was possible to easily run a new hidden cable from another good cable circuit close to the affected zone to fix the issue and I was back in business.

The option of installing a new panel with remote monoitoring was explored but seemed on balance an expensive option for the extra functionality I was going to get with this.

Thanks again for all the advice and please consider this query closed.

KoolKid

Thanks for the update.
I would always advise checking a cable first before considering an upgrade etc.