Finding death records

P. Breathnach

My great-great-grandparents Patrick (Pat) Walsh and Mary Byrne married in January 1830 in Arklow Parish, probably in Ballintemple, a church that is now attached to Avoca parish. Between then and 1842 they had six children that I know about. The baptism records of four of those children give Coolgarrow, Ballintemple as the address. That is consistent with Griffith's Valuation, which records a Patrick Walsh in that townland, the occupier of one of 20 houses there (a modest house, with a valuation of £0-10-0). The house remained in the name of Patrick Walsh in the cancelled valuation books until 1870, when the house disappeared from the records (presumably demolished, but possibly with the roof removed).

Beside the final entry for the house in the cancelled valuation book the word "Rathdrum" is written. That suggests to me that Patrick (and Mary, if she was still living) moved to Rathdrum - possibly to the workhouse there, as he was a labourer and probably aged over 60 by then. Or it might mean something different that I don't understand.

Patrick was dead by 1876, as he is recorded as "deceased" in his son's marriage record in that year.

I can find no record of the death of either Patrick or Mary. I ordered certificates for a couple of possible matches, but they were not my people.

I feel I am now, to make a bad-taste joke, at a dead end.

Unless people here can find something that I missed, or suggest somewhere else for me to look.

lottpaul

The church you refer to is now called Ballycoog and I have visited it once or twice. While there I noticed a book on sale which gave details of every headstone in the old cemetery -- certainly dating well back into the 19th century. It seemed to be a local production - for the millenium I think.
Is it possible they are buried there and would they have been able to afford a headstone? A slim chance I know, as you may already have checked the cemetery.
Best of luck.

Coolnabacky1873

Cantwell's Memorials of the Dead is supposed to contain a transcription of every headstone in Wicklow where the person died before 1880. You can get the CD-ROM's at Wicklow County Library. Irish Origins ($) also has them.

For a possible obit you can have a look at the NLI's newspaper database to see what they have for Wicklow.

If you can get to the GRO research room in Dublin you can check the index registers for a late registration, just in case his family members needed a death cert in the years after he died and it was only registered then. They are in the back of the relevant years volume (I don't know if these were every included in the FamilySearch online index?).

John Grenham estimates in his TYIA that 10-15% of BMD's were never registered. If he ended up in a workhouse them unfortunately he might be in that percentage.

P. Breathnach

Thanks for the responses.

Yes, I have been to the church and checked the headstones. I didn't expect to find anything (my g-g-gf was a labourer) and there was nothing to be found. I learned later from locals that if they died in Coolgarrow, they were more likely to be buried in an old burial ground much closer to their home. Looked there also, found nothing relevant.

I have looked at numerous listings of headstones. Nothing has turned up, and I think nothing will. I don't think it likely that they had an inscribed stone.

I was open to the possibility that their deaths were not registered. The Grenham estimate (of which I was unaware) lends support to that idea. I would be surprised if deaths in a workhouse were unregistered - but there is no strong evidence that they were in the workhouse; it's just a possibility I should recognise.

shanew

I've found that death are often the most difficult record to locate - main reasons for my problem ones have been misreported ages on death registration (out by 10 years in one case), people moving to unexpected areas etc.. There's also a problem sometimes working out if a possible cert could be a match, due to the limited details given.

I would think a workhouse death would possibly be more likely to be registered that one for the general public - but the Workhouse master may not know the correct details.. e.g. if the person was ill when they were admitted and unable to give details.


Shane

P. Breathnach

Thanks, Shane.

I'm unlikely to be misled by age reported at death, as I don't have birth dates for Patrick or Mary.

The latest evidence I have that Mary was living was the birth of a child at the end of 1842. She might have died young, before civil registration was introduced. Or maybe not: I just don't know.

Patrick must have been living at the time of Griffith's valuation and I think he probably lived in Coolgarrow until 1870, and perhaps somewhere else after that. I suspect that I won't get anything more definitive than that.

Perhaps there is a very elderly couple living in the forest by the Shillelagh River.

slowburner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

My great-great-grandparents Patrick (Pat) Walsh and Mary Byrne married in January 1830 in Arklow Parish, probably in Ballintemple, a church that is now attached to Avoca parish. Between then and 1842 they had six children that I know about. The baptism records of four of those children give Coolgarrow, Ballintemple as the address. That is consistent with Griffith's Valuation, which records a Patrick Walsh in that townland, the occupier of one of 20 houses there (a modest house, with a valuation of £0-10-0). The house remained in the name of Patrick Walsh in the cancelled valuation books until 1870, when the house disappeared from the records (presumably demolished, but possibly with the roof removed).

Beside the final entry for the house in the cancelled valuation book the word "Rathdrum" is written. That suggests to me that Patrick (and Mary, if she was still living) moved to Rathdrum - possibly to the workhouse there, as he was a labourer and probably aged over 60 by then. Or it might mean something different that I don't understand.

Patrick was dead by 1876, as he is recorded as "deceased" in his son's marriage record in that year.

I can find no record of the death of either Patrick or Mary. I ordered certificates for a couple of possible matches, but they were not my people.

I feel I am now, to make a bad-taste joke, at a dead end.

Unless people here can find something that I missed, or suggest somewhere else for me to look.

PB, I've been following this journey with interest. So many blind alleys.
The Rathdrum reference is a puzzle.

If its of any use to you, I'll bet that Patrick Walsh worked for, or was in some way connected to the workings of the Carysfort mining company.
It's highly unlikely that any able bodied man living in Ballintemple/Coolgarrow would not be involved in mining in some way or other.
The scale of labour intensive work, and the numbers employed in search of gold and copper around that period, is utterly astonishing.
From about 1840 to 1860, mining for gold was in the hands of Messrs. Crockford & Co.. The leases were then taken by the Carysfort Mining Co.

I suspect that the twenty houses you refer to, fell into disuse with the Ballintemple mines.
Ballintemple RC church was in ruins by 1838/1840, so I think they probably weren't married there - my guess would be Avoca



I might have mentioned this to you before, but in the IT centre in Avoca, there is a substantial amount of un-collated, photocopied records. They are not really a part of the function of the centre - the just happen to have them.
If you ask nicely, I'm sure that you'd be allowed to have a browse through.
Or if you would like me to have a look through for you, (which I can do at a more leisurely pace) send a pm.

One other possible source (which I need to look at myself) is the Bayly papers, at the NLI
http://sources.nli.ie/Record/MS_UR_060876

shanew

Workhouse records for Rathdrum are kept in the Wicklow Local Authority Archives in Wicklow Town, if you want to check that possibility. They seem to have the registers, and Board of Guardian minute books...

http://www.wicklow.ie/archives/wicklow_archive.htm
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Rathdrum/


Shane

P. Breathnach

Thanks, slowburner.

First off, their local church. The marriage and the baptisms of the children are recorded in the Arklow parish register. That area was part of Arklow parish back then (I know it is now in Avoca parish). The church I have in mind was there in the 1839 OS map, and is still in use today. It is St. Kevin's, which was identified as Ballykillageer R.C. Chapel in the 1839 map and is across the road from Ballintemple School and beside Ballycoog P.O. Unless I'm mistaken (such things have happened) it's in Ballintemple civil parish. So naming it can be a bit confusing. I don't know what today's locals call it - probably just "the church".

I was generally aware of the continuing interest in mining in the area, but unaware of the activities of the Carysfort Mining Company. That's another possibility to consider. The only occupational note I have for him (on his son's wedding record) described him as a labourer. Because he lived in one of four small dwellings on the land of a fairly prosperous farmer, I had half-persuaded myself that he was a farm worker. He might also have worked on building the railway. The possibilities are broadening out.

Have you some idea of what sort of records the IT centre holds? Is there a chance that the names of what Joe Higgins likes to refer to as "ordinary people" are mentioned?

A visit to Woodenbridge has to be put on the agenda. That's probably after I go to West Kerry to do a little more work on a property dispute that took place in the 1850s, and about which I probably know more than anybody else on the planet.

P. Breathnach

shanew wrote: »

Workhouse records for Rathdrum are kept in the Wicklow Local Authority Archives in Wicklow Town, if you want to check that possibility.

Thanks Shane. On the to-do list.

Coolnabacky1873

PB,

Another long shot but I see on the GV entry that "Peter Russell and Patrick Walsh" are listed as the occupiers of the 11a holding in Coolgarrow, Ballintemple.

Maybe you have already established a link/no link for who Peter Russell was but it could be worth looking at any Russell's in the Rathdrum area.

Might have moved there for family/employment/land reasons to do with the Russell's.

P. Breathnach

Thanks, Coolnabacky.

Yes, I have looked at the Russell aspect, and think that it doesn't lead me anywhere useful. There is a Russell listed as a sponsor at the baptism of one of Pat and Mary's children; I see nothing else to connect them. The house is long gone, and there is no clear record of where exactly it stood. I have constructed a fragile case for a particular location and, if I am right, it was probably a building about 50-60 feet long. I visualise two adjoining cottages with the Walshes and the Russells being neighbours rather than two families living in the one house.

There was no land with the house.

thadiisgirl

Hi there P.B - I'm very interested in the 'cancelled' Griffiths info you referred to in your OP. Is this accessible online do you know? (It would perhaps help us in trying to determine exactly when our own GG Grandfather left the family farm and emigrated to England...)

TIA

P. Breathnach

thadiisgirl, the cancelled valuation books are not online. They are kept in the Valuation Office in Dublin where you can look them up fairly easily for a modest fee (or free if you are student, unemployed, or retired). See http://www.valoff.ie/index.html.

What you can learn from them is when a change in the occupation of land or buildings was recorded, but sometimes the recording lagged behind the event.

thadiisgirl

Ah right. A job to do when I eventually come over to Ireland!

Be interesting for us this info - in 1857 GG -Grandfather was the main tenant of 3 - the other two were brothers. His son first appears on the 1881 census here in England - yet I believe the father only died in the 1890s in his late 70s, but on the 1901 Irish census, the two brothers families are on the plot. Not of 'my lot' were left there by then.

I can only guess that GG-Grandfather's other sons all emigrated to the US or just died. I actually found one of the two brother's GG-Grandaughters online via an Irish local paper - she was very 'off' with me, I have to say and most insistent we were not related, even though it was unusual for co-tenants not to be in those days...(One wonders at ancient skulduggery somewhere down the line...:D)

slowburner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thanks, slowburner.

First off, their local church. The marriage and the baptisms of the children are recorded in the Arklow parish register. That area was part of Arklow parish back then (I know it is now in Avoca parish). The church I have in mind was there in the 1839 OS map, and is still in use today. It is St. Kevin's, which was identified as Ballykillageer R.C. Chapel in the 1839 map and is across the road from Ballintemple School and beside Ballycoog P.O. Unless I'm mistaken (such things have happened) it's in Ballintemple civil parish. So naming it can be a bit confusing. I don't know what today's locals call it - probably just "the church".

I could be wrong, but I think the divisions, in order of magnitude, were -

Barony: Arklow
Union: Rathdrum
Parish: Ballintemple

That might explain the Rathdrum note.

I was generally aware of the continuing interest in mining in the area, but unaware of the activities of the Carysfort Mining Company. That's another possibility to consider. The only occupational note I have for him (on his son's wedding record) described him as a labourer. Because he lived in one of four small dwellings on the land of a fairly prosperous farmer, I had half-persuaded myself that he was a farm worker. He might also have worked on building the railway. The possibilities are broadening out.

Sadly, the extent and importance of mining in this area has been much neglected.
It's a passion of mine, so forgive me.

Have you some idea of what sort of records the IT centre holds? Is there a chance that the names of what Joe Higgins likes to refer to as "ordinary people" are mentioned?

Births, marriages and deaths. Joe Higgins might not have liked some of them at all, but most of them he would have found acceptable.
I'll be there on Friday. I'll get a loan of the records and we'll see if there's anything potentially relevant. I sorted them into some sort of order a couple of years back, but I'd say they're all over the place again. It'd save you a trip.

A visit to Woodenbridge has to be put on the agenda. That's probably after I go to West Kerry to do a little more work on a property dispute that took place in the 1850s, and about which I probably know more than anybody else on the planet.

Lord Jaysus, 162 years and you still haven't sorted it out, you are very old indeed, and slow.

slowburner

I'd say you are right about the church.

shanew

slowburner wrote: »

...
divisions, in order of magnitude, were -

Barony: Arklow
Union: Rathdrum
Parish: Ballintemple

That might explain the Rathdrum note.
....

agree with the possible Rathdrum PLU reference, but think I'd switch the sequence... in increasing size, with number of townlands in each :

Ballintemple - 12
Arklow - 300
Rathdrum - 673

Shane

P. Breathnach

slowburner wrote: »

... Births, marriages and deaths. Joe Higgins might not have liked some of them at all, but most of them he would have found acceptable.
I'll be there on Friday. I'll get a loan of the records and we'll see if there's anything potentially relevant. I sorted them into some sort of order a couple of years back, but I'd say they're all over the place again. It'd save you a trip.

Thank you. So you are trying the keep undesirables out of the neighbourhood by depriving them of their excuses to visit.

Lord Jaysus, 162 years and you still haven't sorted it out, you are very old indeed, and slow.

I have got noticeably slower since my 120th birthday.

I think my great-great-grandmother was done out of land that was rightfully hers, although it was eventually passed on to her daughter's husband. Then my great-great-grandmother seems to have done her other daughter, my great-grandmother, out of land. If I could untangle things without about 200 other descendants knowing about it, I might end up with about 10 hectares of mountainside with a terrific view.

slowburner

shanew wrote: »

agree with the possible Rathdrum PLU reference, but think I'd switch the sequence... in increasing size, with number of townlands in each :

Ballintemple - 12
Arklow - 300
Rathdrum - 673

Shane

Is Ballintemple not a townland within the Barony of Arklow, parish of Rathdrum?
How can a townland contain 12 other townlands, or do I misunderstand the system of division altogether?

P. Breathnach

slowburner wrote: »

Is Ballintemple not a townland within the Barony of Arklow, parish of Rathdrum?
How can a townland contain 12 other townlands, or do I misunderstand the system of division altogether?

It's also the name of the civil parish.

shanew

slowburner wrote: »

Is Ballintemple not a townland within the Barony of Arklow, parish of Rathdrum?
How can a townland contain 12 other townlands, or do I misunderstand the system of division altogether?

sorry should have explained that a bit better and included captions on that list list I posted

Civil Parish : Ballintemple - 12
Barony : Arklow - 300
PLU/Registration District : Rathdrum - 673

I believe that Ballintemple civil parish was included in Arklow RC parish.. at least in the 1830s.

see : Ballintemple (Lewis, 1837)


Shane

slowburner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thank you. So you are trying the keep undesirables out of the neighbourhood by depriving them of their excuses to visit.

Just as well the undesirables didn't waste time and petrol.
The records have been removed. Joe Higgins must have got there before me.
Will update if and when I find them.

P. Breathnach

slowburner wrote: »

Just as well the undesirables didn't waste time and petrol.
The records have been removed. Joe Higgins must have got there before me.
Will update if and when I find them.

Thanks for the update; pity about the records going walkabout.

The undesirables have just spent a very enjoyable (but wet) few days in Connemara. Genealogical field trips to West Kerry and to Arklow/Woodenbridge are on the agenda for July and August, but dates have yet to be decided.

slowburner

Found the records!
I'm not too sure if there's anything there which would be helpful, though.
There's a lot of stuff to go through and most of it seems to be from unconnected parishes.
I shall persist.

slowburner

I had a quick scan through the records, and all that seems to be left there now, are BMD records for Dunganstown, Redcross (C of I), and Kilmagig (RC) - none of which are of any use to you, (or me) I expect.
One thing struck me when looking at the burial records for Kilmagig: many of them were people who lived a fair old distance from the cemetery.
So maybe widening your search could pay.
Especially so if there was any connection with mining, miners tend to follow the ore.
(See below)

Walsh is a scarce enough name at this end of Wicklow. I had a look at the 1901 census to see if there were any Walshes in the townlands adjoining Coolgarrow.
Could these folks in the link below be connected to you, do you think?
Note the occupations.
There's a very strong chance that someone working for the Carysfort mining company (or their succesors) would have moved up the hill from Coolgarrow to Ballinvally - following the gold.
They were gone in the 1911 census.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Arklow_Rural/Ballinvally_Upper/1813083/

P. Breathnach

Thanks for all the effort.

If the Walshes in Ballinvally are connected, it's not in a direct line from my g-g-grandparents in Coolgarrow (the name and age pattern clashes with the family facts that I have). There were Walshes in Kilcarra which, as you no doubt know, is only a hen's race from Coolgarrow. They caused me some confusion because of the similarity of the placenames when spelling was not standardised. They, like my ancestral family, were gone by the 1901 census - although descendants of either family might still be there, through the female line and hiding under some husband's family name. I might have cousins in the Woodenbridge area.

Plus, of course, the g-g-grandparents who might not have died.

slowburner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I might have cousins in the Woodenbridge area.
Plus, of course, the g-g-grandparents who might not have died.

Any familiar faces here then?
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/gold-find-in-wicklow-mountain-ireland

P. Breathnach

slowburner wrote: »

Any familiar faces here then?
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/gold-find-in-wicklow-mountain-ireland

I'd need a better view of the free-range pigs to be sure.

slowburner

:D:D

LarryD37

came across this thread and it got my interest. I have just found a relative also on GV at Coolgarrow - James gaffney. Mention by PB of likely to be buried near Coolgarrow - any idea of place? Also ref to a book somewhere with Kilmagig burials - where? Any ideas appreciated as I am at a standstill Thanks

P. Breathnach

I have centred the burial ground on this map: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717395,677342,6,8, but I am not sure how much it might add to your search. It's heavily overgrown and there are very few inscribed headstones. As a general rule, people who lived in modest houses did not erect headstones. Both James Gaffney and Patrick Walsh seemed to rent smallish cottages.

LarryD37

Thanks for that info. I suspected as much. Very humble circs based on house value. But interesting to see where at. I might take a wander around that area just 'walk te footsteps' so to speak. Also helps to point me towards baptisms I hope. Thanks again

P. Breathnach

Coolgarrow was part of the parish of Arklow for most of the 19th century, and is now in Avoca parish (it's about equidistant from both). There was a James Gaffney baptised in Avoca in 1828.

googled eyes

Sorry for bumping a thread but Woodenbridge was mentioned. My (great?)grandfathers family are said to be from the area but I cant find Woodenbridge on the census.
Ive gotten back to gx3 grandparents on mothers side but fathers seem to stop quite quickly. Im really new to researching genealogy so any help would be very appreciated

P. Breathnach

googled eyes wrote: »

Sorry for bumping a thread but Woodenbridge was mentioned. My (great?)grandfathers family are said to be from the area but I cant find Woodenbridge on the census.
Ive gotten back to gx3 grandparents on mothers side but fathers seem to stop quite quickly. Im really new to researching genealogy so any help would be very appreciated

Woodenbridge comprises a number of townlands. Coolgarrow, the one in which I am interested, is one of them. I can check it by searching the census by place: County Wicklow, Arkow Rural, Coolgarrow.

If you want to trawl, you need to get the names of the townlands in Woodendridge and search them individually.

googled eyes

Thanks. Yeah Arklow Rural is where I needed to be looking.
Thanks again