Clamped!

MugMugs

Anan1 wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

But... It's defined as a public place... For the public to use. Without a bye laws in place by the landowner the public are only really obliged to abide by the laws of the land.

Legally you're correct. It was legal to remove the OP's clamp. But I wouldn't put my feet on someones couch even if I knew that the law would protect me. Would you?

If you did though, I'd probably ask you to leave. I wouldn't imobilze your feet.

And No, I wouldn't.

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

But... It's defined as a public place... For the public to use. Without a bye laws in place by the landowner the public are only really obliged to abide by the laws of the land.

If you owned a retail outlet that was gated (gates open during business hours) and had 5 parking spaces in there after yourself and your staff had parked would you allow the public to park on those five spaces if they weren't visiting your retail outlet?

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

But... It's defined as a public place... For the public to use. Without a bye laws in place by the landowner the public are only really obliged to abide by the laws of the land.

If you owned a retail outlet that was gated (gates open during business hours) and had 5 parking spaces in there after yourself and your staff had parked would you allow the public to park on those five spaces if they weren't visiting your retail outlet?

If I chose to allow the public enter my land freely without restriction then I'd suffer the consequences or I'd ask them to leave or, I'd make it difficult for those people to park with a bollard or I'd put up a barrier and only charge non customers. Would I clamp? No, because its illegal in my eyes.

Drummerboy08

Anan1 wrote: »

Drummerboy, you wanted to see me banned for disagreeing with you. We're both long term posters here and in general terms I respect both you and your outlook, but you really should have a think about that one.

Sorry, did I? Show me where I said that, can't remember how I put it.

Anan1

MugMugs wrote: »

If you did though, I'd probably ask you to leave. I wouldn't imobilze your feet.

And No, I wouldn't.

Of course none of this would even be an issue if people showed a little common decency. As i've said before, the people who shout loudest about clamping are often the very same people who make landowners feel that they have no other way to protect their property.

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

............ or I'd put up a barrier and only charge non customers. .........

And if they refused to pay you'd let them on their merry way?

mfceiling

Surely according to Anan's logic, if you park your car and proceed to the ticket machine to purchase your ticket and you arrive back at your car to find it clamped then it's tough sh*t...regardless if it takes you 20 seconds or 20 minutes the fact that you had parked without paying means you are fair game for the clamping company.


Yes??

Caseywhale

Using this thread as inspiration, just tonight I have 'phoned a friend', and removed the clamp from my car.
I'll phone the clampers tomorrow and tell them to come and collect it. I have locked my Iron gate to the clamp using my own lock. When they get here i'll hand them a bill for €90 to remove my gate from their clamp. Just like they do to your car. IF they dont pay it the clamp stays.

hondasam

mfceiling wrote: »

Surely according to Anan's logic, if you park your car and proceed to the ticket machine to purchase your ticket and you arrive back at your car to find it clamped then it's tough sh*t...regardless if it takes you 20 seconds or 20 minutes the fact that you had parked without paying means you are fair game for the clamping company.


Yes??

No it's only tough sh!t if you leave the car park without paying. Everyone has to go to the ticket machine.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sorry, did I? Show me where I said that, can't remember how I put it.

You thanked a post threatening to ban me if I posted again in this thread. You knew I wasn't trolling, and you knew that my posts, even if you disagreed with them, were 100% on-topic, and yet you still wanted me silenced. I think you know well that i'd fight hard to defend your right to disagree with me.

Marcusm

MugMugs wrote: »

But... It's defined as a public place... For the public to use. Without a bye laws in place by the landowner the public are only really obliged to abide by the laws of the land.

I can see where you're coming from but I think that the inclusion of commercial car parks within the ambit of the RTA for some purposes causes some confusion. The land is still privately owned and the owner is perfectly entitled to make his own rules as to how it can be accessed and used. People who do not abide by them take the consequences.

That being said, I don't agree at all with clamping and can see very few circumstances in which it can be justified either on private land or on public roads. However, the other route to regulate matters such as this would be a framework to permit private landowners to levy fines on people who do not abide by the rules (provided these are adequately signposted etc). I think this should apply to public roads also; I am fed up seeing cars booted all over Dublin as the recent parking reports showed that clamping doesn't even raise enough revenue to cover its costs. MAke the fines large enough and then put strong recovery actions in place (including penalty points if necessary for repeat offenders). It works in other cities and countries.

As a last point, I am far from perfect but I can't see how the OP has a lot to complain about. It's just a fact of lie that if you want to park in places like this you need to keep a small bag of change in the car - even if its only a 50c or EUR1 coin to give you time to get change. Going to an ATM where you can't even get coins is not really a viable option IMO. I feel sorry that he got clamped and I applaud the ability of the declampers to remove it without damage but while I think the punishment did not fit the "crime", he did commit an avoidable infraction!

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

............ or I'd put up a barrier and only charge non customers. .........

And if they refused to pay you'd let them on their merry way?

That's the thing about automated barriers. You need a valid ticket to make them lift. I wouldn't be imobilizing their vehicles though.

I'd have to.check the legal element of refusing exit though.

Stark

Anan1 wrote: »

Of course none of this would even be an issue if people showed a little common decency. As i've said before, the people who shout loudest about clamping are often the very same people who make landowners feel that they have no other way to protect their property.

I have never been anything but respectful towards other people's property. Clampers on the other hand...

This thread would be nowhere near its current length if the clampers showed common decency like responding to appeals with something other than "We already have your money. PFO".

mfceiling

hondasam wrote: »

No it's only tough sh!t if you leave the car park without paying. Everyone has to go to the ticket machine.

But how do the clampers know you have just come from the machine or have been to the shop to get change and then went to the machine.

Not trying to rile here...just curious

Drummerboy08

Oh right, so I didn't say it, and you just assumed it. Fair enough.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore because it's getting very petty now. Its gone way OT, and is probably due to be locked.

Anan1

mfceiling wrote: »

Surely according to Anan's logic, if you park your car and proceed to the ticket machine to purchase your ticket and you arrive back at your car to find it clamped then it's tough sh*t...regardless if it takes you 20 seconds or 20 minutes the fact that you had parked without paying means you are fair game for the clamping company.


Yes??

This has already been answered, and the answer is no.

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

That's the thing about automated barriers. You need a valid ticket to make them lift. I wouldn't be imobilizing their vehicles though.

I'd have to.check the legal element of refusing exit though.

So you'd consider refusing exit from the car park ?

MugMugs

Marcusm wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

But... It's defined as a public place... For the public to use. Without a bye laws in place by the landowner the public are only really obliged to abide by the laws of the land.

I can see where you're coming from but I think that the inclusion of commercial car parks within the ambit of the RTA for some purposes causes some confusion. The land is still privately owned and the owner is perfectly entitled to make his own rules as to how it can be accessed and used. People who do not abide by them take the consequences.

That being said, I don't agree at all with clamping and can see very few circumstances in which it can be justified either on private land or on public roads. However, the other route to regulate matters such as this would be a framework to permit private landowners to levy fines on people who do not abide by the rules (provided these are adequately signposted etc). I think this should apply to public roads also; I am fed up seeing cars booted all over Dublin as the recent parking reports showed that clamping doesn't even raise enough revenue to cover its costs. MAke the fines large enough and then put strong recovery actions in place (including penalty points if necessary for repeat offenders). It works in other cities and countries.

As a last point, I am far from perfect but I can't see how the OP has a lot to complain about. It's just a fact of lie that if you want to park in places like this you need to keep a small bag of change in the car - even if its only a 50c or EUR1 coin to give you time to get change. Going to an ATM where you can't even get coins is not really a viable option IMO. I feel sorry that he got clamped and I applaud the ability of the declampers to remove it without damage but while I think the punishment did not fit the "crime", he did commit an avoidable infraction!

So if the landowner says you have to give me 2 quid to park here and sing the chicken song and dance to popcorn when you return, you'd think that's fair enough?

No, the landowner can make rules, if you don't abide them and don't break the law then.there's nothing he / she can do.

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

That's the thing about automated barriers. You need a valid ticket to make them lift. I wouldn't be imobilizing their vehicles though.

I'd have to.check the legal element of refusing exit though.

So you'd consider refusing exit from the car park ?

I know where you're going James and before you try just read the last part of that quote

hondasam

mfceiling wrote: »

But how do the clampers know you have just come from the machine or have been to the shop to get change and then went to the machine.

Not trying to rile here...just curious

What? you are still in the car park you will see them and they will see you.
Personally I would not go into the shop without having a ticket on my car where clampers are operating.

MugMugs

hondasam wrote: »

mfceiling wrote: »

But how do the clampers know you have just come from the machine or have been to the shop to get change and then went to the machine.

Not trying to rile here...just curious

What? you are still in the car park you will see them and they will see you.
Personally I would not go into the shop without having a ticket on my car where clampers are operating.

What if you didn't have change?

Stark

RoverJames wrote: »

So you'd consider refusing exit from the car park ?

Refusing someone exit without paying for their parking is far more reasonable than interfering with their car and demanding extortionate fees that amount to several days worth of parking.

hondasam wrote:

What? you are still in the car park you will see them and they will see you.
Personally I would not go into the shop without having a ticket on my car where clampers are operating.

Like MugMugs said, what if you had to go into the shop to get change for the meter? It's not unreasonable that you should have some grace period to do so. I used to live in Cork City where clampers used to operate before they got the boot from the council. The only way you could buy a parking disc (they don't use meters in Cork) was to go to the nearest shop and buy a disc inside the shop. Again, not unreasonable that someone be given sufficient time to do so without being clamped.

hondasam

MugMugs wrote: »

What if you didn't have change?

You know lads it's not rocket science you want to park make sure you have money to pay for said parking.
I would stop at a pass machine on the way, ticket machines take notes. Ye can make all the excuse in the world, you get clamped it's your own fault.

Anan1

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Oh right, so I didn't say it, and you just assumed it. Fair enough.

No, you said it. You said it when you thanked that thread, and you justified it here:

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Yes, I did thank that particular post from a Motors Mod instructing you to stop posting in this thread. I agreed with that Motors Mod because I felt your posts were flaming other users, and bringing this thread OT.

Reg'stoy

Anan1 wrote: »

They're still privately owned, which, in my book at least, means that you either abide by the owners rules or stay away. If everyone respected this then there'd be no need for clampers. I'm not talking about the law here, i'm talking about common decency and respect for property.

I have to agree with Anan here, when I bought my home I also got two on street parking spaces. Neither of these are fenced in, but are numbered as per our house. I've had to put in parking posts, illegally at my own expense, because some people have no respect for their!! neighbours spaces.

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

I know where you're going James and before you try just read the last part of that quote

I've read it when I read the rest of the post.
It's apparent that you don't actually know what you'd do but if it was legal you'd refuse exit unless the person paid.

Let's say it was illegal to refuse exit and word got around that the five spaces in your private land could be used to park on and you could do nothing about it and every day they were occupied by non customers, would you like that?

MugMugs

hondasam wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

What if you didn't have change?

You know lads it's not rocket science you want to park make sure you have money to pay for said parking.
I would stop at a pass machine on the way, ticket machines take notes. Ye can make all the excuse in the world, you get clamped it's your own fault.

I don't carry cash generally. What if you had to park in a clamping car park to get to the pass machine? Have you never parked and not had change in your pocket? Happens me all the time.

Marcusm

MugMugs wrote: »

So if the landowner says you have to give me 2 quid to park here and sing the chicken song and dance to popcorn when you return, you'd think that's fair enough?

No, the landowner can make rules, if you don't abide them and don't break the law then.there's nothing he / she can do.

If he writes that up in a clear manner and abides by it, I would need to take it into account in forming my decision - if I wanted to park badly enough I probably would. You are correct that there is an issue in that there is no written contract signed by both parties clearly delinating their respective responsibilities on which they'd each obtained professional advice prior to entering into the contract.

The flipside of that is that when I'm parking, I'm aware that the penalty for an infraction is high and therefore I seek to avoid it.

I mostly live in London and regularly park in the city for meetings. ON one occasion when returning to my car 2 minutes after the expiry point, I found that I had already received a ticket; no grace period there! That taught me a lot and it would be good if, irrespective of the merits/demerits of clamping, this thread caused more people to carry a few coins in their cars as the best way to get rid of clamping (absent the long awaited statutory regulation) is to ensure that they never get to collect the fines and stop being commercially viable!!

Anan1

MugMugs wrote: »

I don't carry cash generally. What if you had to park in a clamping car park to get to the pass machine? Have you never parked and not had change in your pocket? Happens me all the time.

Do you think there might be some connection between my regularly throwing change into the ashtray and my never getting clamped?

hondasam

MugMugs wrote: »

I don't carry cash generally. What if you had to park in a clamping car park to get to the pass machine? Have you never parked and not had change in your pocket? Happens me all the time.

Honestly no, I would stop at a pass machine on the way. I'm sure we all know the car parks in towns and cities local to us.
It's not excuse and you know it.

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

I know where you're going James and before you try just read the last part of that quote

I've read it when I read the rest of the post.
It's apparent that you don't actually know what you'd do but if it was legal you'd refuse exit unless the person paid.

Let's say it was illegal to refuse exit and word got around that the five spaces in your private land could be used to park on and you could do nothing about it and every day they were occupied by non customers, would you like that?

I'd act within the law James. I wouldn't clamp.... Id do what I was allowed do. If it was an issue, I'd bollard the spaces.

What would you do RJ?

Stark

RoverJames wrote: »

I've read it when I read the rest of the post.
It's apparent that you don't actually know what you'd do but if it was legal you'd refuse exit unless the person paid.

Let's say it was illegal to refuse exit and word got around that the five spaces in your private land could be used to park on and you could do nothing about it and every day they were occupied by non customers, would you like that?

Personally I have no issue whatsoever with barrier systems or refusing someone exit until they've paid the cost of their parking. I do have issues with landowners hiring organised thugs to extort hugely disproportionate fees from people often on very sketchy grounds simply because it's more convenient for them.

Marcusm

MugMugs wrote: »

I don't carry cash generally. What if you had to park in a clamping car park to get to the pass machine? Have you never parked and not had change in your pocket? Happens me all the time.

Don't take offence but madness is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome; why not have some change it's hardly rocket science. I ted to empty my pockets of change into the ashtray each time I get in the car. That way I always have at least one coin. In my experience, very few machines take notes as the fees are not often that high/machines don't give change.

MugMugs

Marcusm wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

I don't carry cash generally. What if you had to park in a clamping car park to get to the pass machine? Have you never parked and not had change in your pocket? Happens me all the time.

Don't take offence but madness is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different outcome; why not have some change it's hardly rocket science. I ted to empty my pockets of change into the ashtray each time I get in the car. That way I always have at least one coin. In my experience, very few machines take notes as the fees are not often that high/machines don't give change.

No offence taken. I put change into my ashtray too. Generally the tolls take that. I actually could go for a month without touching cash. People love dealing with me on whip arounds!

MugMugs

MugMugs wrote: »

I'd act within the law James. I wouldn't clamp.... Id do what I was allowed do. If it was an issue, I'd bollard the spaces.

Decent ish answer but if it came to it I doubt you'd be happy pr1cking about with bollards on a daily basis to facilitate every potential customer, of course they could say they are a customer, park, than sh@g off, when they come back would you remove the bollard to facilitate their exit?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping.html

"Clamping on private property is not covered by legislation and the legality of clamping on private property is unclear"

Considering the citizens info folks reckon the legality of clamping on private property is unclear I'm baffled as to why so many people on here are so sure it's illegal at the moment.

Anan1

Stark wrote: »

...often on very sketchy grounds...

OP left their car without a ticket for 20 minutes, remember?

Stark

Anan1 wrote: »

OP left their car without a ticket for 20 minutes, remember?

And 20 minutes of parking without a ticket amounts to how much in unpaid parking fees exactly? Hardly deserving of a €120 punishment.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

And 20 minutes of parking without a ticket amounts to how much in unpaid parking fees exactly? Hardly deserving of a €120 punishment.

.... if the next person did the same, and the one after and the one after etc the space would potentially be constantly occupied and no one ever paying.

Stark

RoverJames wrote: »

.... if the next person did the same, and the one after and the one after etc the space would potentially be constantly occupied and no one ever paying.

Not with a barrier system. The options are there for people to implement a customer friendly system but they'd rather screw people with thugs. There are plenty examples on this thread or people being bullied out of their money even as they were paying for their tickets.

Wexfordian

Stark wrote: »

And 20 minutes of parking without a ticket amounts to how much in unpaid parking fees exactly? Hardly deserving of a €120 punishment.

Whatever that car park has set. Have you never parked in one of those barrier car parks that charges something like E2 per hour, but after 3hrs it jumps to E100? The only time I ever got stung for parking was in one of those in Dunfries.

hondasam

Stark wrote: »

And 20 minutes of parking without a ticket amounts to how much in unpaid parking fees exactly? Hardly deserving of a €120 punishment.

I think 20 minutes is too long to leave without paying but I also think €120 is way too much of a fine.

MugMugs

RoverJames wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

I'd act within the law James. I wouldn't clamp.... Id do what I was allowed do. If it was an issue, I'd bollard the spaces.

Decent ish answer but if it came to it I doubt you'd be happy pr1cking about with bollards on a daily basis to facilitate every potential customer, of course they could say they are a customer, park, than sh@g off, when they come back would you remove the bollard to facilitate their exit?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping.html

"Clamping on private property is not covered by legislation and the legality of clamping on private property is unclear"

Considering the citizens info folks reckon the legality of clamping on private property is unclear I'm baffled as to why so many people on here are so sure it's illegal at the moment.

I'll level with you. I like Anan1's that clamping should be regulated. It should be

In saying that, I've been clamped twice in a public area where its free to park because I work for a local company. Both times I've disposed of those clamps. I've been threatened, sneered at and reported to my company by these lads. I've seen them clamp and intimidate money from pregnant women to elderly people and I've seen people pay an unfair clamp and appeal only to be shown what kind of farce the appeals system is.

Those two times I got clamped by the way, I wasn't working. I was a customer.

I don't agree with the process but if there was some sort of fairness in how its deployed I could be willing to accept it.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

Not with a barrier system. The options are there for people to implement a customer friendly system but they'd rather screw people with thugs. There are plenty examples on this thread or people being bullied out of their money even as they were paying for their tickets.

Only if you refused exit until the fee was paid, of course barriers can be lifted/removed too without damaging them

Stark

Wexfordian wrote: »

Whatever that car park has set. Have you never parked in one of those barrier car parks that charges something like E2 per hour, but after 3hrs it jumps to E100? The only time I ever got stung for parking was in one of those in Dunfries.

I can honestly say I've never encountered one of them. The most punitive charge I've seen was €50 for losing your entry ticket. Still significantly less than what the thugs charge and the scenario by which you find yourself in that situation is far more clear cut. As long as your ticket is in your wallet, you don't have to worry about coming back to find the car clamped because you missed a bit of mostly scratched off paint on the ground or the ticket fell off the windscreen or whatever.

Stark

RoverJames wrote: »

Only if you refused exit until the fee was paid,

Which is fine.

RoverJames wrote: »

of course barriers can be lifted/removed too without damaging them

Does this happen often enough that it's an issue for owner of barrier operated car parks?

Stark

Stark wrote: »

..............


Does this happen often enough that it's an issue for owner of barrier operated car parks?

I dunno.

Does removal of clamps?

Btw I worked in a car park with no barrier, if you didn't pay you didn't get your car keys back, no one ever refused to pay so we were all happy

colm_mcm

So would removing the barrier arm, driving off and replacing the arm without damaging the barrier be ok?

Stark

RoverJames wrote: »

I dunno.

Does removal of clamps?

Getting away with something doesn't make it any less immoral.

RoverJames wrote: »

Btw I worked in a car park with no barrier, if you didn't pay you didn't get your car keys back, no one ever refused to pay so we were all happy

How much did you charge? I'd have no problem saying to someone "give me what you owe me for parking". I would have a problem with refusing to give anyone and everyone regardless of their financial status, age or whatever their keys until they gave me €120 for going 10 minutes over on their ticket.

Presumably if you did try to charge a looney fine, the person would just have gone home and came back with a spare set of keys.

Marcusm

MugMugs wrote: »

No offence taken. I put change into my ashtray too. Generally the tolls take that. I actually could go for a month without touching cash. People love dealing with me on whip arounds!

My god, the queen of England has been a boards poster all this time!

MugMugs

Marcusm wrote: »

MugMugs wrote: »

No offence taken. I put change into my ashtray too. Generally the tolls take that. I actually could go for a month without touching cash. People love dealing with me on whip arounds!

My god, the queen of England has been a boards poster all this time!

We are not amused.