Dubliner kills two kids and walks free

ResearchWill

prinz wrote: »

And from this you presume what? That the Hungarian court weren't privy to this information?



The accused man making a statement in his defence, never!



Key word, later. You are accusing them of a miscarriage of justice, based on evidence that emerged after the fact.



Wasn't this down to the Hungarian legal system again rather than some plot to stitch him up? Once again being presented the same way 'he was convicted without being there to defend himself' was... trying to paint the picture of a malevolent system screwing over Tobin for the fun of it.

The only thing you have managed to provide is that there may indeed be grounds for Tobin to appeal his case and subsequent sentence. What it doesn't do is show that if you don't like your sentence you just walk away from the whole thing

I am only dealing with the attack on the person, which I can see is based on in my opinion a flawed finding of guilt. Yes he did appeal, but as noone has put up any information as to what went on in either the original or appeal court I will not personally attack the guy.

A Supreme Court judge in Ireland has stated he can not understand the decision based on what was before him.

It is my understanding that other than the request to examin the car, no information in relation to the faults in this make, model and year was ever put before any court including the HC or SC. You are correct that maybe same as it may be considered new information could allow another appeal but that is for the Legal team in Hungary to pursue.

My only issue is the venom aimed at this guy, with claims of him jumping bail when even the Hungarian's accept that he did not flee.

Zulu

ResearchWill wrote: »

My only issue is the venom aimed at this guy...

+1.

I find this hate-thread very unpalatable.

prinz

Zulu wrote: »

+1.
I find this hate-thread very unpalatable.

Perhaps you should retire with a brandy and cigar old bean.

Zulu

I shall settle for ale & a draw from my pipe if it's all the same to you.

V_Moth

SocSocPol wrote: »

Their children wern't lost, they were slaughtered by a speeding coward called Ciaran Tobin, who then jumped bail and ran away.:mad:

Probably one of the most laughable things posted in AH.

If the only facts you have arguing against the Supreme Court decision are wikipedia links and emoting statements in the vein of "if your not with us your against us", then I am afraid you won't get much support.

tldr: This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

Fuinseog

V_Moth wrote: »

Probably one of the most laughable things posted in AH.

If the only facts you have arguing against the Supreme Court decision are wikipedia links and emoting statements in the vein of "if your not with us your against us", then I am afraid you won't get much support.

tldr: This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

no, this thread is about someone killing children,not having to answer for it, getting assistance from the highest level at the Irish embassy and getting a very easy ride from the Irish courts and hoping it will be nicely swept under the carpet and forgotten about.

Fuinseog

Zulu wrote: »

+1.

I find this hate-thread very unpalatable.

I am sure Tobin does as well which is why you would love it simply to go away. unfortunately for the Tobin Support Group this issue will not go away and is tarnishing out country's image abroad.

Whats unpalatable are the comments made by the Irish judge. It was as if he was sticking up for his mate Tobin.

Zulu

Fuinseog wrote: »

Whats unpalatable are the comments made by the Irish judge. It was if he was sticking up for his mate Tobin.

The judge was Tobins friend? Really?? And you've evidence to support the same surreal, sensationalist claim???

...of course you don't, who needs evidence or truth when you can have a good bile filled, hate-thread. For shame.

V_Moth

Fuinseog wrote: »

I am sure Tobin does as well which is why you would love it simply to go away. unfortunately for the Tobin Support Group this issue will not go away and is tarnishing out country's image abroad.

Whats unpalatable are the comments made by the Irish judge. It was if he was sticking up for his mate Tobin.

You are deluded, mate.

By all accounts that I have read of this case (thanks ResearchWill!), the Hungarian legal system messed up and the "blame" rests firmly with them. They could have detained the suspect, taken his passport or many other things to ensure either a successful conviction or dismissal of the case.

They did not. Simple as.

Fuinseog

V_Moth wrote: »

You are deluded, mate.

By all accounts that I have read of this case (thanks ResearchWill!), the Hungarian legal system messed up and the "blame" rests firmly with them. They could have detained the suspect, taken his passport or many other things to ensure either a successful conviction or dismissal of the case.

They did not. Simple as.

of course I am deluded. Tobin is the victim here.

The Hungarians were put under diplomatic pressure by the Irish ambassador. they also mistakenly believed Tobin was a man of good character, who would have the decency to stand trial.

Fuinseog

Zulu wrote: »

The judge was Tobins friend? Really?? And you've evidence to support the same surreal, sensationalist claim???

...of course you don't, who needs evidence or truth when you can have a good bile filled, hate-thread. For shame.

at this stage posters must think you are a relative of Tobins, next door neighbour or a close friend. let us not confuse the search for justice with the word 'hate'.

the supreme court has made is final decision on the matter but it apparently has yet to make its absolute final decision.

K-9

Isn't a big reason he wasn't extradited because if it was the other way round, an Irish court wouldn't be able to get him extradited?

humanji

Fuinseog wrote:

at this stage posters must think you are a relative of Tobins, next door neighbour or a close friend. let us not confuse the search for justice with the word 'hate'.

the supreme court has made is final decision on the matter but it apparently has yet to make its absolute final decision.

You're not searching for justice. You're searching for vengeance. There's a world of difference.

prinz

humanji wrote: »

You're not searching for justice. You're searching for vengeance. There's a world of difference.

I think he should be serving the sentence that was legitimately handed down to him, by a court and legal system our country chose to recognise as on an equal par with our own, and that if he feels he has been hard done by to appeal the conviction through the proper means. Does that mean I'm searching for vengeance too?

There is no justice whatsoever in using a technicality to walk away from the process entirely.

Zulu

A "search for justice" would consider all the facts; would consider the full story, but you've displayed no interest in that form the begining.
You couldnt care less of Tobins side of the story. You couldnt care less if it happened to be an accident. You couldn't car less if the car did have a history of brake and steering failures. You couldnt care less of the judgment of the Irish court.

You've no interest in justice, you're only interested in hate, bile, and vengeance.

humanji

prinz wrote: »

I think he should be serving the sentence that was legitimately handed down to him, by a court and legal system our country chose to recognise as on an equal par with our own, and that if he feels he has been hard done by to appeal the conviction through the proper means. Does that mean I'm searching for vengeance too?

There is no justice whatsoever in using a technicality to walk away from the process entirely.

Fuinseog wants the man to suffer. He wants to destroy the man's character and wants to implicate those he perceives as being in some sort of higher echelon, in a conspiracy. This isn't justice.

Fuinseog

humanji wrote: »

You're not searching for justice. You're searching for vengeance. There's a world of difference.

why do you persist in using words you do not understand? Look up the definition of 'vengeance'.

Fuinseog

prinz wrote: »

I think he should be serving the sentence that was legitimately handed down to him, by a court and legal system our country chose to recognise as on an equal par with our own, and that if he feels he has been hard done by to appeal the conviction through the proper means. Does that mean I'm searching for vengeance too?

There is no justice whatsoever in using a technicality to walk away from the process entirely.

If the Tobin cheerleaders throw around the words 'venom', 'vendetta' and 'vengeance' they hope the embarrassing thread might be closed. Unfortunately for their cause it is being discussed on a lot of other forums.

What would have happened if his employer had not ended his assignment and he had to continue working in Hungary? His escape from justice was aided at the highest level.
according to a 2006 Indo article the guards here opposed giving him bail but the Irish courts granted it.

Fuinseog

Zulu wrote: »

A "search for justice" would consider all the facts; would consider the full story, but you've displayed no interest in that form the begining.
You couldnt care less of Tobins side of the story. You couldnt care less if it happened to be an accident. You couldn't car less if the car did have a history of brake and steering failures. You couldnt care less of the judgment of the Irish court.

You've no interest in justice, you're only interested in hate, bile, and vengeance.

has 'vengeance' replaced 'vendetta'?

humanji

Fuinseog wrote: »

why do you persist in using words you do not understand? Look up the definition of 'vengeance'.

I'm aware of what it means and apparently you are not. And from the vitriol you're spewing, one could be mistaken in thinking you don't understand the word "justice" either.

And for the record, I want him to return to Hungary. So please stop claiming that everyone who thinks you're over-reacting and mudslinging, is a "Tobin Cheerleader". It's childish.

Ben_Zol

Here's what I said to reps of the press after the Supreme Court decided to let Tobin walk away free:


My name is Bence Zoltai. I came from Budapest Hungary. I will be talking about the Ciaran Tobin case.
The following background of this case is from the online encyclopaedia, Wikipedia.
On 9 April 2000, Ciarán Tobin, an Irish citizen working as a senior manager of Irish Life and Permanent in Hungary, was driving through the small town of Leányfalu. He was speeding, (I would call it racing), according to the experts he drove his Volvo at least 70-80 km/h in a 50 km/h zone. He lost control of his vehicle, and ran onto the footpath, drove on the footpath a hundred meters without braking. The car hit and immediately killed two children, 2 year old Petra Zoltai who was sitting in a pram, and her brother 5 year old Márton Zoltai. They were waiting on the footpath to cross the crowded street. The whole accident happened so quickly that the grandmother and the aunt of the children had no chance to pull them away. Petra and Márton were my daughter and son.
The Hungarian authorities took Tobin’s passport, however some months later, in September 2000 he requested that he get his passport back for a family visit. His request was strongly supported by the Irish Ambassador to Hungary, Mr. Jim Flavin. The Hungarian authorities acted in an unusual promptness, and returned his passport in exchange for a security deposit of 500,000 forints (less than 2000 EURos at that time) within one day of the application. He left, and returned as promised without giving back his passport to the police.
Irish Life didn't extend Tobin’s assignment and with his passport in his pocket he returned to Ireland in November 2000. He did not show up for the trial although he promised it before leaving, but was duly represented by his lawyers, which was his own decision. Neither me, nor my lawyer ever had the chance to ask Tobin what really happened in the car before the accident. He was sentenced to 3 years in prison. On appeal the sentence was supplemented so that Tobin can only be paroled after serving at least 18 months. This was later mistranslated and you could read in the newspapers that his sentence was cut to 18 months, which is not true.
In 2005 Hungary requested the extradition of Mr. Tobin by issuing a European Arrest Warrant. In 2007, one and a half year after the Arrest Warrant was issued, both the High Court and the Supreme Court of Ireland refused Tobin’s extradition. The justification was astonishing: as Tobin left Hungary with his passport, he did not flee, therefore he could not be extradited. This was the first scandalous decision from the Irish side.
In 2009 the law on extradition changed in Ireland (mainly because of this case), and the Hungarian authorities requested the extradition of Mr. Tobin again. This time it took 32 long months for the Irish Courts to decide. High Court decided that Tobin would be extradited whereas the Supreme Court, by a three/two majority, allowed his appeal against that decision last week.
In the judgment, one of the 5 judges, Mr. Justice Hardiman said a number of unbelievable reasons to explain the second scandalous decision including:
1. a Hungarian national in similar circumstances could not have been extradited to Ireland because Hungary (according to an EU framework) allows its citizens to serve time at home for sentences imposed on them abroad. Can you see this crazy logic? If a Hungarian can serve the sentence at home, then an Irish can do so, too. Then why is Tobin not in jail in Ireland? Because this way of serving does not exist in Irish law.
2. Judge Hardiman also refused extradition on grounds of contradictory and inconsistent documents from the Hungarian authorities related to the length of sentence Mr. Tobin would have to serve. I simply do not believe this. There may have been incorrect newspaper articles about the length of the sentence, but I saw the Arrest Warrant myself in the Hungarian Ministry with the official, professional translation and that was correct. Anyone saying something else is not saying the truth.
3. What other explanations did Judge Hardiman provide? He said: this case illustrated how a perfectly ordinary person, of good character, can in a moment, and without any intentional or malicious act on his part, become first a suspect, then a convict sentenced to three years in a foreign jail, the judge said. Mr Tobin was pursued for many years on “a number of inconsistent grounds”. I don’t see any inconsistent ground here: Tobin killed my two children, ha was sentenced and he fled from the punishment with the assistance of the Hungarian and Irish authorities. Full stop.
4. Back to the explanations, Hardiman said: The combined effect of this “tragedy” and the impossibility of life as a fugitive for a respectable person led Mr Tobin to offer to serve the three-year sentence – the justice of which, and associated conviction, he had never accepted – providing he could serve it in Ireland, the judge said. This so-called offer was rejected because there was no basis in Irish law for it. Tobin, with the number of well paid lawyers must have known that his offer will be rejected. This is a comedy again.
5. Finally, Mr. Justice Hardiman was very critical of the State’s conduct of the matter and said his concerns included the “grossly abnormal” period of time during which Mr Tobin was under threat of “forcible separation from his family”. This was discreditable to this State and to the Hungarian authorities. Well, what is grossly abnormal in my opinion is MY forcible separation from my children by an irresponsible driver and the queer decisions of the Irish Courts on this issue.
This is 12 years’ story in a nutshell. I am not in the position to change this decision. But you, the voice of Ireland have the right to take back the decision making power from judges who proved to be unsuitable and force them to resign.
Thank you for your time. I appreciate that you came to listen to me.

ronjo

Dear Mr Zoltai,

I just want to write to say how very sorry I am for the tragedy your family has suffered over the last 12 years and I dont know how you have found the strength to continue following the awful loss of Marci and Petra.

I have been following this case for many years as I used to know Ciaran Tobin and I also had some very good friends working in Budapest at the time.

I hope at some stage you will find peace.
I dont like this particular thread as there is so much hatred but I can understand that you are suffering every day.

My thoughts are with you and your family.

Ronjo

Ben_Zol

Dear Ronjo,

it is really hard to close a story like this if you receive calls every other month from journalists and are asked to comment the news. Therefore I will be in until the 'real ending' which can either be Tobin's extradition to Hungary or something else (I am not creative enough to find another acceptable ending; sure there can be another one).

Thank you for your kind words, it's good to know that most Irish people (I guess you are) think the same about this issue as us.

Bence

Trail

Theta wrote: »

Not by the Irish judicial system (which is the debate here) and he was convicted in absentia without defending himself.

He was duly represented by his legal team.

omahaid

Trail wrote: »

He was duly represented by his legal team.

What interest do you have in this story considering you contributed to a thread which hasn't had a reply in 4 months?

Trail

Public ongoing story, I was reading about it. I came across the thread now, it's not closed - I guess I would say I have the same general interest as any of the other posters.

Madam_X

Weird tirade by the OP. Obviously the man on question did an atrocious wrong, but the OP seems bizarrely fixated on this one case.

Trail

ResearchWill wrote: »

I have now asked 4 times for anyone to post a unconnected verifiable site that shows he was breaking the speed limit. Can you please do so as no one else has been able to show it to me as I would like proof of him breaking the speed limit.

I respect your goal to not engage in a witch hunt. The speed is an important factor. I cannot provide you with an English source that establishes that.
Most I can say that quotes from the court documents in Hungarian media, one is one of the two leading newspapers in Hungary, say that it was established by experts that he exceeded the speed limit by almost half of the allowed speed.

Do you have any reason to not believe the court, or proof? Somewhere you state you think the court decision was wrong, at least something to that effect.
I do not say that the court was infallible - but reasonable doubt exists on its integrity or expertise? I remind you that Hungary as a member of the EU is upheld to some standards in its legal system.

It is stated that witnesses saw the car speed for the previous 20-30 kms before the accident. Anything to discredit that?
I know you have posted reports on technical faults on this type of car model. It did give me pause. Also, you stated Tobin was not allowed to have it examined by his own expert. I do not know why that might have happened. I think it should be further investigated if true. But the car was examined by experts from the other side. It was established that no technical fault could be detected that could have caused the accident. Some sources say by three independent experts
I'm sorry I could not go back to your original post about that (I will try to do that), but seems far-fetched that, all three defections - steering defect, breaking failure, unexplained accelaration - would occure at the same time.

I can't help but mention, to your specific question in the post: regardless whether he exceeded the speed limit, he hit the children on the footpath.
I think he had no business driving on the footpath (allow me that much emotion on the case).

I am no legal expert but I think that he would have had the opportunity to appeal and further argue his case, maybe even go to EU levels if he was not satisfied with the outcome (I freely admit I'm not positively sure of the latter).

Also, I would like to say that all my information is just from journalistic accounts, as I am sure yours are too, therefore it is worth what it is worth.

megafan

omahaid wrote: »

What interest do you have in this story considering you contributed to a thread which hasn't had a reply in 4 months?

This is a case which should continue to be in the public arena.... Ciaran Tobin has questions to answer!.....

Trail

ResearchWill wrote: »

I am only dealing with the attack on the person, which I can see is based on in my opinion a flawed finding of guilt. Yes he did appeal, but as noone has put up any information as to what went on in either the original or appeal court I will not personally attack the guy.

A Supreme Court judge in Ireland has stated he can not understand the decision based on what was before him.

It is my understanding that other than the request to examin the car, no information in relation to the faults in this make, model and year was ever put before any court including the HC or SC. You are correct that maybe same as it may be considered new information could allow another appeal but that is for the Legal team in Hungary to pursue.

My only issue is the venom aimed at this guy, with claims of him jumping bail when even the Hungarian's accept that he did not flee.

Here, just let me comment on two things. I might not use the proper legalese, I am not a lawyer.

It is my understanding that the Irish Supreme Court has no right to contest another EU member state's legal court verdict. I don't think it did either. Therefore I don't know what you mean that the judge did not understand the decision and I hope it is not implied that he contested that the verdict was somehow wrongful - that would be misleading.
What the Supreme Court did make a decision on was the extradition itself. First it refused extradition because it did not agree with the word "flee" in it. It can be debated that the original Hungarian word was translated inappropriately, but it's useless now. Then it refused extradition on grounds that the appropriate law has no retrospective scope.

The second thing is that the Hungarian state is of the opinion that at the moment of his leaving the country Tobin might not have fled in the strict legal meaning of the word, but he is a fugitive now as he refuses to present himself to serve his sentence.